Teacher's flag burning inflames many

[nickel]

Monday, August 21, 2006
A Stuart Middle School teacher has been removed from the classroom after he burned two American flags in class during a lesson on freedom of speech, Jefferson County Public Schools officials said.

Dan Holden, who teaches seventh-grade social studies, burned small flags in two different classes Friday and asked students to write an opinion paper about it, district spokeswoman Lauren Roberts said.

A teacher in the school district since 1979, Holden has been temporarily reassigned to non-instructional duties pending a district investigation. The district also alerted city fire officials, who are conducting their own investigation.

“Certainly we’re concerned about the safety aspect,” Roberts said, along with “the judgment of using that type of demonstration in a class.”

Pat Summers, whose daughter was in Holden’s class, said he was among more than 20 parents who showed up at the school Monday upset about the incident. Holden apparently told the students to ask their parents what they thought about the lesson, he said.

“She said, ‘Our teacher burned a flag.’ I’m like, ‘What?’ ” Summers said. “When I was (at the school) at 8 a.m., the lobby was filled with probably 25 or 30 parents” who were upset, he said.

Holden could not be reached Monday for comment.

Roberts said the flag burning did not appear to be politically motivated, based on an interview with Holden.

Summers said no advance notice had been given to parents, nor were school administrators aware of Holden’s plans, Roberts said.

Stuart sixth-grader Kelsey Adwell, 11, said students were abuzz about the incident yesterday.

“They just can’t believe that a teacher would do that — burn two American flags in front of the class,” she said. “A teacher shouldn’t do that, even though it was an example.”

Kentucky has a statute last amended in 1992 making desecration of a national or state flag in a public place a misdemeanor, but the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that flag desecration is protected speech.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Kentucky said the federal ruling would trump the state statute.

Congress has tried unsuccessfully to prohibit flag burning with a constitutional amendment. The latest attempt failed in the Senate this year.

Beth Wilson, director of Kentucky’s ACLU, said the district is allowed to decide what’s instructionally appropriate.

But “if a school is masking their objections to flag burning under the guise of safety, it raises questions about freedom of speech and academic freedom,” she said. She said her group would monitor the case but did not plan to get involved at this point.

Regardless, school board member Pat O’Leary said the flag burning was unnecessary and could have offended some students, including those in military families.

“A teacher doesn’t do that,” he said. “It’s just disrespectful.”

Rebecca Creech, a Stuart sixth-grader, said she also thought it was “wrong.”

Ginny Adwell, Kelsey’s mother and the school’s PTA president, said some parents who called for Holden to be fired were “going a little bit overboard” and should remember that the teacher was trying to provoke thought.

Brent McKim, president of the Jefferson County Teachers Association, said Holden has “been teaching for many years, and has by all accounts a good teaching record. It was not a political statement and was meant to illustrate a controversial issue. To fire someone because of that would be inappropriate,” he said. “It wasn’t like he was taking one side or another.”

McKim said he was gathering facts that would determine whether the district was justified in removing Holden from the classroom.

In 2001, a teacher in Sacramento, Calif., faced suspension for using a lighter to singe a corner of an American flag in class.

The teacher later was fired, but district officials cited numerous acts of poor judgment and disregard for superiors.
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200660821025

If this happened in your local high school would you get involved? Who would you be siding with?

[faither]

Unless reassigned for violating safety rules, this is another example of the PC police at work.

[MikeD]

If my kid was in his class, I would hope that he/she would respectfully get up and leave the room. If the school had a problem with that, then I'd have a problem with them.

What a moron. So many other ways to teach the lesson.

[johnnymk]

Unless reassigned for violating safety rules, this is another example of the PC police at work.

:stupid:

Much ado about nothing.

He was just trying to make a point by demonstrating it more vividly.

[BigJon]

Ugh. According to the US Constitution, we aren't supposed to wear flag shirts, use flag napkins, or wipe our feet on flag welcome mats either. Does any body follow those rules? The flag really has no meaning anymore unfortunately...until major tragic events like 9/11 or little things like these.

And as for the fire in school...my science teacher poured a flammable substance all over his lab desk and lit it on fire while playing "Light my Fire" on his electric guitar. I loved that class.

[TruckStuff]

Ugh. According to the US Constitution, we aren't supposed to wear flag shirts, use flag napkins, or wipe our feet on flag welcome mats either. That's not the Constitution, its the National Flag Code (http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html). And violations are not punishable by any type of penalties either.
And as for the fire in school...my science teacher poured a flammable substance all over his lab desk and lit it on fire while playing "Light my Fire" on his electric guitar. I loved that class. Science labs are designed and built to handle potentially dangerous reactions, fires, etc. Normal classrooms are not.

Re OP: This shows *extremely* poor judgement on the part of the teacher. Even if you totally set aside the safety issue for a moment, I could *maybe* justify the demonstration to a junior or senior level SS class. But sixth graders? Most sixth graders haven't even considered the finer aspects of puberty, much less the social, moral and legal issues surrounding flag burning. This is just silly. :2far:

[MikeD]

The flag really has no meaning anymore unfortunately...until major tragic events like 9/11 or little things like these.

Therein lies the problem. It SHOULD have meaning 24/7/365.

[cheapie]

i think he's gone overboard but have no real huge issue except for the possible safety hazard. sure, i'd voice my disapproval but i wouldn't call for his job.

[Jcranmer]

:gle: I went to that school! Weird....

http://www.jefferson.k12.ky.us/Schools/Middle/Stuart/index.html

[Jeffbx]

Yeah, I agree that sixth grade is probably a little young to be making this type of demonstration, but I think it's a very valuable learning opportunity.

Rather than the tired old, "What does the American flag mean to me" paper, this gives them something shocking & unexpected to think about. It allows them to really think about how they felt to see that - disgusted, amused, offended, whatever - rather than relying on their parents to tell them how they should feel.

I'm sure that after they went home & discussed it, a lot of them decided that they were offended since that's the reaction their parents gave. But it's a lot more telling for the kids to immediately write down exactly what they were feeling at the moment it happened.

I'd be real interested to read those papers.

[nickel]

i think he could've prompted discussion without actually burning a flag or two. just like if we are in health class talking about procreation we don't need a live demonstration to spark interest.

as far as the teacher being "reassigned to non-instructional duties pending a district investigation," on another board someone pointed this out:

"A good friend of mine in the education system pointed out this possible motive....
"he's been teaching for a long time, he probably wanted out and this was a good way to do it and be set for life. It's just about impossible to fire a teacher."

So this could be a possible cause for his actions also.

[ray]

Couldn't he have shown a video of a flag burning instead of actually burning a flag without notifying the school administrators and the parents? Seems like that would have been a bit more appropriate, especially from a safety standpoint.

On a side note, the guy is a moron if he's been teaching that long and hasn't learned what's appropriate and what's not.

[johnnymk]

On a side note, the guy is a moron if he's been teaching that long and hasn't learned what's appropriate and what's not.

Maybe he's sick and tired of political correctness. Man, if I was a teacher I would be quite upset at the crap they're teaching today.

[Thesifer]

a Safety hazard? Puuhhhleeease.. Two "SMALL FLAGS" most likely those tiny little flags about the size of your hand that people wave at parades and junk. It's not as if they are oversized Holiday Flags that went up in a Blaze..

The entire uproar is because it was a US Flag that was burned, if he had lit an Iraqi Flag and burned that, only the Iraqi parents would be pissed, no one would care about the "Safety Issue"

[nickel]

a Safety hazard? Puuhhhleeease.. Two "SMALL FLAGS" most likely those tiny little flags about the size of your hand that people wave at parades and junk. It's not as if they are oversized Holiday Flags that went up in a Blaze..

The entire uproar is because it was a US Flag that was burned, if he had lit an Iraqi Flag and burned that, only the Iraqi parents would be pissed, no one would care about the "Safety Issue"
I totally disagree. If it had been a piece of paper he lit on fire I would have the same concern. From what I've read he wasn't in a lab or some place where experiments are conducted. He was in the wrong to light anything ablaze in a regular classroom without checking for permission beforehand.

[Markel]

Yeah, I agree that sixth grade is probably a little young to be making this type of demonstration....
I had the same thought. Even if something is permitted/protected by the Constitution (as far as the courts interpret the first amendment), it does not make it appropriate for a school teacher to do. (There have been plenty of other cases where legal, but inappropriate behavior has ended up in a teacher losing his/her job.)

There is a teacher at our middle school (my son had her a year ago, and my daughter will have her this year) that spared no opportunity to ram her political views down the throats of the students. If I hear that she is continuing to do it this year, I will very likely send a letter of complaint to the principal and district superintendent. I have nothing against a teacher teaching, but this teacher seems to think that it is her duty to brainwash her pupils.

[Lolita]

i think he could've prompted discussion without actually burning a flag or two. just like if we are in health class talking about procreation we don't need a live demonstration to spark interest.

Come on now, we all cut health class until they showed the "how babies are made" video :P

[gwilks98]

I totally disagree. If it had been a piece of paper he lit on fire I would have the same concern. From what I've read he wasn't in a lab or some place where experiments are conducted. He was in the wrong to light anything ablaze in a regular classroom without checking for permission beforehand.


I'm not nearly as concerned that he didn't ask for permission as much as I'm concerned he didn't think to ask for permission. Is teaching one class about free speech worth losing your job? Did he think about that?

Whether he was right or wrong is an arguable point. But he should have known he was tap dancing on a fine line. This guy sounds too stupid to be teaching anything.

[Thesifer]

I'm not nearly as concerned that he didn't ask for permission as much as I'm concerned he didn't think to ask for permission. Is teaching one class about free speech worth losing your job? Did he think about that?

Whether he was right or wrong is an arguable point. But he should have known he was tap dancing on a fine line. This guy sounds too stupid to be teaching anything.

Maybe he was on drugs and had no idea what he was doing and it seemed like a good idea at the time :) .. Oh wait.. he teaches 6th grade.. probably not a good thing :)

Anywho.. I think back to what I did in the 6th grade, and I definately think these kids are "old enough" to learn a lesson from it.. Whether good or bad. Maybe one of them will now grow up to be a fire safety inspector? :bandit:

[WhiskeyPapa]

Perhaps as a lesson in free speech, he should have burned a couple of small crosses. With a pillowcase on his head.

[ray]

This guy sounds too stupid to be teaching anything.

:stupid:

[ShawnLee]

:stupid:
:stupid:

That's for sure.

My being the gung-ho flag-waving type that I am... I'm not going to get into how idiotic this guy is. Suffice it to say that if this happened in a class I was in, he'd be lucky if he didn't get beat up.

[Jeffbx]

See, I think that's wrong. I place the rights of an individual WAY above some symbol, whether it's the flag or a religious icon or whatever.

No offense intended, Shawn, but when I hear people getting all riled up about something like this, all I can think of are the Muslims calling for the death of that cartoonist who drew Mohammed. Big deal - it's an image. He's not destroying anything that the image represents.

I can see if it's an original work of art, a religious relic, or something irreplaceable - that's not right. But who cares if someone burns a flag, especially as a demonstration of free speech? Isn't that what the flag represents?

[MikeD]

Isn't that what the flag represents?

Well, it depends on your interpretation. I think for many of us it stands for much, much more. :shrug:

It's certainly not the end of the world, but he could have made a better choice in getting his point across to the students.

[Jeffbx]

Well of course it stands for more, for ALL of us.

But one of the unique things about being American is having the right to stand up & express yourself without fear of retribution. This should clearly fall under that distinction.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Evelyn_Beatrice_Hall

[ShawnLee]

I can see if it's an original work of art, a religious relic, or something irreplaceable - that's not right. But who cares if someone burns a flag, especially as a demonstration of free speech? Isn't that what the flag represents?
I would disagree, but I see your point. Call it brain-washing or indoctrination, but I think my teachers over the years have done a good amount in teaching respect for the flag, all that it represents, and all that have given so much to impart so much meaning into it.

I didn't mean to say that I'd for sure stand up and start beating on the teacher, but boy, I know I'd feel the urge. When you burn sacred cows in the politically correct effort to "engage dialogue" or whatever tripe he was trying to spur on, there's nothing left sacred afterwards, least of all his precious dialogue.
But one of the unique things about being American is having the right to stand up & express yourself without fear of retribution. But define retribution? If you can't allow parents to voice their desire to see the guy fired, that's denying their right to speech as well.

[Jeffbx]

But define retribution? If you can't allow parents to voice their desire to see the guy fired, that's denying their right to speech as well.

Retribution of BEING fired. That's where the line is crossed.

Sure, he has to know that some people will be pissed about it, but he shouldn't have to worry about losing his job because of it.

[nickel]

Retribution of BEING fired. That's where the line is crossed.

Sure, he has to know that some people will be pissed about it, but he shouldn't have to worry about losing his job because of it.
He hasn't lost his job, and I don't believe he will. He has been reassigned to a non- teaching position (whatever that means) while they investigate why he lit an object on fire in his classroom without permission.
I wonder if there was a fire extinguisher in the classroom. I don't recall all of our class rooms having individual fire extinguishers, but the lab classes where we did work with fire sure did.

[gwilks98]

Retribution of BEING fired. That's where the line is crossed.

Sure, he has to know that some people will be pissed about it, but he shouldn't have to worry about losing his job because of it.


Well, now wait a minute. By your logic, if a guy was in the classroom telling kids he enjoyed making love to his wife vaginally instead of anally, he shouldn't have to be worried about getting fired because he was just sharing his opinion.

Society has a right to limit what goes into a classroom based on fact vs. teacher's opinion. If the teacher begins to teach opinion outside of good taste, damn right he can be fired for that.

[Jeffbx]

Right, but there are laws the prohibit that (lewdness to minors? I can't remember what it's called).

He can't be fired for this any more than he can be fired for saying that Bush is a moron, ESPECIALLY if he's doing it in context of teaching, rather than expressing his personal opinion, and it certainly seems like that was the context here.

[gwilks98]

Right, but there are laws the prohibit that (lewdness to minors? I can't remember what it's called).

He can't be fired for this any more than he can be fired for saying that Bush is a moron, ESPECIALLY if he's doing it in context of teaching, rather than expressing his personal opinion, and it certainly seems like that was the context here.


Then by that logic, a teacher could walk in with an offensive free speech shirt and not get fired? It seems to me that if a school can ban a kid from wearing an offensive tshirt, they can ban a teacher from voicing offensive opinions. Maybe I'm on a limb there...

[Markel]

I have heard stories of teachers being fired for conduct that the school authorities considered to be inappropriate. One example that comes to mind that I heard on the news recently was a teacher that posted some revealing pictures of herself on a web site. When the school found out about it, the teacher was dismissed (with a statement that they held teachers to a higher moral standard). I imagine that other types of (technically legal) conduct could be considered inappropriate enough to warrant dismissal.

[ShawnLee]

Right, but there are laws the prohibit that (lewdness to minors? I can't remember what it's called).

He can't be fired for this any more than he can be fired for saying that Bush is a moron, ESPECIALLY if he's doing it in context of teaching, rather than expressing his personal opinion, and it certainly seems like that was the context here.
Eh. I think a lot of school systems still hold teachers to old Cold War statements where they promise to not advocate or teach Communism as the preferred, or even an acceptable, form of economics and government.
It's not as if schools don't tell teachers what they can and cannot teach.

Just as a side note, it's matters like this where I'd prefer that government got out of the business of education, and my inner libertarian screams at having a bureacracy.

[jstreet]

It can hardly be argued either that students or teachers shed their constitutional rights ... at the schoolhouse gate.
-- Justice Abe Fortas, Tinker v. Des Moines Independent School District, 393 U.S. 503, 506 (1969).

Good primer: http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri-intro/freedom.html

[faither]

I continue to be amazed at how tightly wound some people are. For someone to get their panties in such a wad over the burning of a flag in a classroom to stimulate thought and written expression by students...I shake my head is disbelief and suggest they examine what's really important.

Do they react the same way when thinking (if they ever do) about the abject poverty still faced by tens of millions in this country, the fact that millions of children go to bed hungry and 40+ million Americans have no insurance? Probably not.

Get real, people.

[Airencracken]

a Safety hazard? Puuhhhleeease.. Two "SMALL FLAGS" most likely those tiny little flags about the size of your hand that people wave at parades and junk. It's not as if they are oversized Holiday Flags that went up in a Blaze..

The entire uproar is because it was a US Flag that was burned, if he had lit an Iraqi Flag and burned that, only the Iraqi parents would be pissed, no one would care about the "Safety Issue"

:stupid:


I totally disagree. If it had been a piece of paper he lit on fire I would have the same concern. From what I've read he wasn't in a lab or some place where experiments are conducted. He was in the wrong to light anything ablaze in a regular classroom without checking for permission beforehand.

C'mon now a piece of paper? A fire hazard? Yeah right. I can't list all the things teachers have lit on fire in my classes through the years. By this logic it wasn't okay for my 9th grade english teacher to light a candle in class.


I continue to be amazed at how tightly wound some people are. For someone to get their panties in such a wad over the burning of a flag in a classroom to stimulate thought and written expression by students...I shake my head is disbelief and suggest they examine what's really important.

Do they react the same way when thinking (if they ever do) about the abject poverty still faced by tens of millions in this country, the fact that millions of children go to bed hungry and 40+ million Americans have no insurance? Probably not.

Get real, people.

:stupid: and a large one at that.

What happened to no political threads by the way?

[nickel]

:stupid:
C'mon now a piece of paper? A fire hazard? Yeah right. I can't list all the things teachers have lit on fire in my classes through the years. By this logic it wasn't okay for my 9th grade english teacher to light a candle in class.
besides a candle, which is probably fine in the right container and as long as it's out of reach of children, what did your teachers light on fire in a regular classroom? i'm not talking lab class of course or a class in which they had prior permission to set something ablaze.

[Markel]

Faither, although some issues are far more weighty than others, as a parent I still have a strong interest in the things that are being taught in my children's classrooms. And I never consider a parent having such a concern to be a trivial matter.

In this case, by his example, the teacher is communicating (to young students) that flag burning is an acceptable behavior. And it is very well known that to many people, this is a very controversial subject.

[nickel]

Wednesday, August 23,
UPDATED: 10:41 PM
Congressmen sound off on flag burning incident
The Courier-Journal

Members of the Kentucky and Southern Indiana congressional delegations were asked their views on the flag-burning incident.

Question: What should Jefferson County school officials have done with the teacher who burned an American Flag in class as part of a civics lesson: Fired him, suspended him, reassigned him, promoted him, or do nothing?

"The American flag symbolizes the spirit of the United States, and thousands have fought and died for the freedom it represents. I strongly oppose the physical desecration of our flag, and I specifically disagree with this teacher’s actions."
—statement from U.S. Rep. Ed Whitfield, R-1st District.

“I am against flag burning because our flag is a recognized symbol of our country in general and of our military in particular. All over the world — even people who do not speak English — understand the message sent when they see pictures of Americans burning our flag. While I can certainly appreciate the efforts of teachers to stir opinions and expand critical thinking, this teacher clearly stepped over the line. I have consistently supported a constitutional amendment to ban desecrating the American flag, which if passed, would settle the issue once and for all.”
—statement from U.S. Rep. Anne Northup, R-3rd District.

“Our office does not have an opinion on this matter. This is an internal personnel issue for the Jefferson County school system.”
—statement from Amanda Keating, spokeswoman for Rep. Geoff Davis, R-4th District.

Senate Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., declined comment.

Sen. Jim Bunning, R-Ky., declined comment.

Sen. Richard Lugar, R-Ind., was traveling out of the country and was unavailable for comment.

U.S. Rep. Ron Lewis, R-2nd District, declined comment.

The offices of Sen. Evan Bayh, D-Ind.; and of Reps. Hal Rogers, R-5th District; Ben Chandler, D-6th District; and Mike Sodrel, R-9th District, Ind.; did not respond to requests for comment.
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060823/NEWS01/60823037
well, at least i give credit to the very few congresspeople asked who had the balls to give their opinion of this. the rest are cowards.

[Burzhui]

If my kid was in his class, I would hope that he/she would respectfully get up and leave the room. If the school had a problem with that, then I'd have a problem with them.

What a moron. So many other ways to teach the lesson.

why is he a moron? just because he went about it a different way than you would? This provoked emotion and feelings which he asked to express on paper? what's so wrong with that?

[jstreet]

"I am against flag burning because..."I hate when people convert the argument into this. Characterize your side as against flag burning and implicitly characterize your opponent as for flag burning.

Supporting the right of people to burn the flag != desire to burn the flag.

Same thing happens with abortion. It's easier to characterize pro-choice people as sick twisted people that wish for more abortions than it is to counter the actual argument which is about a woman's right to choose.

[Got Apex Moderator]

What happened to no political threads by the way?

As explained before, as long as nothing gets out of hand (with name-calling, baiting, etc.,) GAM is carefully allowing some reasonable threads.

GAM

[Airencracken]

As explained before, as long as nothing gets out of hand (with name-calling, baiting, etc.,) GAM is carefully allowing some reasonable threads.

GAM

Meh, I was MIA for two weeks taking a road trip up the pacific northwest, I may have missed the announcement. That and I'm a forgetful person. Meh.

[ialsohaveadream]

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060823/NEWS01/60823037
well, at least i give credit to the very few congresspeople asked who had the balls to give their opinion of this. the rest are cowards.
Either that, or they realized that this is an issue so minor it doesn't even deserve their comment. And like Ben already said, there's really only one response you can give.

[molecularfire]

Well, I'll say one thing for the guy... he did succeed in getting discussion about the feelings of people... much more so than he would've had he just shown a video of someone burning a flag. Not only are the students in his class discussing what they felt and what others around them felt but so are the parents, the school district, the city, and countless bored people in the internet like us.