SS Fuel Mileage with Ethanol Added

[johnnymk]

I rarely top off my fuel tank. But I decided to recently when I saw some gas that wss a slight bargain. I clicked on the trip meter and then filled it up again after running nearly 250 miles. I repeated it and discovered that my 4 cylinder Breeze is getting a little under 20 MPG. I should be getting at least 22 MPG around town.

I blame it on the 10% ethanol that is being added to the gasoline.

Guess who benefits from all of this.. the farmers and big companies like ADM. We consumers are paying big bucks to gain absolutely nothing. It's a zero sum gain for motorists and America.

BAH.. another Government decision going awry.

[InfiniteNothing]

Well, there is some benefit to us. Notably, it reduces our need to be entangled in the mid east.

[johnnymk]

Well, there is some benefit to us. Notably, it reduces our need to be entangled in the mid east.

No, not really..If 10% ethanol is added and it reduces mileage by 10%, then there is no reduction of foreign fuel.

[InfiniteNothing]

That would imply the ethanol isn't burning wouldn't it?

[mechmike0034]

Ethanol contains fewer BTUs of energy per unit of measure than gasoline.

[Maarchk]

That would imply the ethanol isn't burning wouldn't it?

If what he is saying is true, than ethanol is reducing the effectiveness of gasoline. Which is really scary. but i imagine its possible. Where are you getting this magical fuel from so i can stay away?

[johnnymk]

If what he is saying is true, than ethanol is reducing the effectiveness of gasoline. Which is really scary. but i imagine its possible. Where are you getting this magical fuel from so i can stay away?

From what i have read, it is currently mandated at around 3% minimum, although around here, the pumps are saying that it contains up to 10%.

From this Car and Driver article, http://www.caranddriver.com/features/11174/tech-stuff-ethanol-promises-e85-and-fuel-economy-page7.html

it claims that E85 fuel which is 85% ethanol caused a 30% reduction in fuel mileage. Assuming a ratio of 3:1, then at 10%, admittedly, the fuel mileage would suffer only about 3-4%. However, it takes a lot of energy to produce ethanol, plus the government is subsidizing ethanol.

[Maarchk]

Wow good article... Another illustration of poor government decisions at work. Hmm and you are right, i bet the factories creating ethanol use more and polute more than we would if we just ran on straight gasoline. We totally need a new source of power that isn't coal, oil, and stuff like that... Why dont we put mad money towards better solar powers..

[InfiniteNothing]

If what he is saying is true, than ethanol is reducing the effectiveness of gasoline. Which is really scary. but i imagine its possible. Where are you getting this magical fuel from so i can stay away?
No, it can't significantly reduce the effectiveness of gas assuming the octane rating stays the same. Usually, when they switch to the ethanol blend here in Cali, gas prices drop $0.05-$0.10

[InfiniteNothing]

Wow good article... Another illustration of poor government decisions at work. Hmm and you are right, i bet the factories creating ethanol use more and polute more than we would if we just ran on straight gasoline. We totally need a new source of power that isn't coal, oil, and stuff like that... Why dont we put mad money towards better solar powers..
Additional pollution might be tollerable if it gets us out of the mid east.

[WhiskeyPapa]

Guess who benefits from all of this.. the farmers and big companies like ADM.Remove farmers from that equation. Yes, it's another market for corn, but it certainly hasn't increased the price of corn.

[BigJon]

I get so confused when it comes to this whole ethanol issue. If adding ethanol reduces the price of gas, but also reduces the gas milage, which in-turn increases the usage of gas, which increases the price of gas....I just don't see why we even bothered in the first place.

If this is really the case, then how the heck did this idea get approved? You'd think all the scientists in the world would let the government know that they are making a mistake.

Ugh...it makes my head hurt.

[InfiniteNothing]

It reduces gas mileage but not enough to offset the beneficial decrease in oil derived gas use. Also, gas demand is seen as having a steep slope implying cheaper gas doesn't significantly increase consumption.

[Jeffbx]

Plus it's better for the environment - burns much cleaner than fossil fuels, and boosts the octane rating as well.

But if your goal is just cheaper gas, ethanol is not a good solution.

[InfiniteNothing]

And your car exaust will smell like french fries!

[BigJon]

I see...so we're really just doing it more on an environmental standpoint rather than helping with the current gas price craze.

[Markel]

And your car exaust will smell like french fries!
I think you're mixing up your fuel sources. :P

[Prngr44]

I run E85 in my truck as often as I can. While I don't see anywhere near 30% decline in fuel efficiency, I do see about a 5% noticeable drop (I'm anal about MPGs.)

I think the benefit of cleaner air due to its use along with the reduced need of oil from "over there" to make it work makes me feel a lot better.

Even my state's governor (IL) just announced a multi Billion dollar effort to increase the state's output of ethanol based fuel along with coal and other oil alternatives. (You can use many different items for ethanol extraction, not just corn.)

I'm not a tree huggin' hippie, but I definitely think we're too dependant on oil and even though my deliberate use of E85 amounts to .00000001% of the big picture, it's a start.

[AlpineJay]

I've noted the MPG drop on my car as well - around 5-10% depending on driving conditions. Gas here in the northeast is usually 10% ethanol.

What's interesting is that my coworker says her mechanic claimed that her Saab 9-5 wagon is being flaky with the check engine light due to the ethanol fuel. To my knowledge, her car is a turbo and the mechanic says it's got an adverse effect on forced induction systems, which I don't really buy. Can anybody confirm or deny this claim?

[WhiskeyPapa]

I run E85 in my truck as often as I can.
Do you have trouble finding E85? We have more than 50% of all E85 stations here in Minnesota, so it's easy to find here, but I imagine it can get difficult to find in other states.

I'm currently looking for a used Ford Taurus with the flex-fuel option.

[guiseppewv]

And your car exaust will smell like french fries!

No, like popcorn!!!! :P ;)

Actually it is bio-diesel that smells like fried food b/c that is where most of the bio-diesel comes from - used restaurant fryer oil.

[guiseppewv]

From what i have read, it is currently mandated at around 3% minimum, although around here, the pumps are saying that it contains up to 10%.

From this Car and Driver article, http://www.caranddriver.com/features/11174/tech-stuff-ethanol-promises-e85-and-fuel-economy-page7.html

it claims that E85 fuel which is 85% ethanol caused a 30% reduction in fuel mileage. Assuming a ratio of 3:1, then at 10%, admittedly, the fuel mileage would suffer only about 3-4%. However, it takes a lot of energy to produce ethanol, plus the government is subsidizing ethanol.

So at 10% you have a drop in fuel efficiency of 3.5% but you are still using 10% less gasoline, so you actually consume 6.5% less gasoline. If your car is only getting 20 mpg and you usually get 22 then there is something else wrong with your car. There are other factors that need to be taken into account too.

Also, once we start producing ethanol not from corn but from cellulose it will be more beneficial to the environment and in our quest to remove the "power" from the mid-east.

[guiseppewv]

I've noted the MPG drop on my car as well - around 5-10% depending on driving conditions. Gas here in the northeast is usually 10% ethanol.

What's interesting is that my coworker says her mechanic claimed that her Saab 9-5 wagon is being flaky with the check engine light due to the ethanol fuel. To my knowledge, her car is a turbo and the mechanic says it's got an adverse effect on forced induction systems, which I don't really buy. Can anybody confirm or deny this claim?

My guess: Usually forced induction engines require higher octane fuel and b/c ethanol has an octane of around 105 I would say that adding ethanol shouldn't have an adverse affect on forced induction engines. Just my guess, though.

[mechmike0034]

What's interesting is that my coworker says her mechanic claimed that her Saab 9-5 wagon is being flaky with the check engine light due to the ethanol fuel. To my knowledge, her car is a turbo and the mechanic says it's got an adverse effect on forced induction systems, which I don't really buy. Can anybody confirm or deny this claim?

I can't confirm or deny it, but it sounds an awful lot like "I can't find the problem so lets blame the gas" to me...

[InfiniteNothing]

If your car is only getting 20 mpg and you usually get 22 then there is something else wrong with your car. There are other factors that need to be taken into account too.
Probably just a sampling error. Different gas pumps close at different times, different driving conditions, etc.

[AlpineJay]

I can't confirm or deny it, but it sounds an awful lot like "I can't find the problem so lets blame the gas" to me...

Right. That's what I guessed. The MIL on those Saabs are known to be pretty flaky, too. Comes on for little to no apparent reason...

[InfiniteNothing]

Maybe to earn some maintenance revenue. "Yeah, that's going to be a $120 diagnostic."

[johnnymk]

So at 10% you have a drop in fuel efficiency of 3.5% but you are still using 10% less gasoline, so you actually consume 6.5% less gasoline. If your car is only getting 20 mpg and you usually get 22 then there is something else wrong with your car. There are other factors that need to be taken into account too.

Also, once we start producing ethanol not from corn but from cellulose it will be more beneficial to the environment and in our quest to remove the "power" from the mid-east.

I just made a guess using the ratio for E85. Who knows, real world figures may be on the low or high side of 3.5%.

I am definitely going to find more information about this.

EDIT: After reading a few articles, I am wondering if I should just replace my oxygen sensor. It may be giving a false reading to the computer. The car has 82,000 miles on it.

[Prngr44]

Do you have trouble finding E85? We have more than 50% of all E85 stations here in Minnesota, so it's easy to find here, but I imagine it can get difficult to find in other states.

I'm currently looking for a used Ford Taurus with the flex-fuel option.

Yeah, in the St. Louis area there's only 2 stations within a 50 mile radius that carry it. I keep lobbying my local gas station to start carrying because the state provides incentives (rebates and tax credits) to stations that carry it. Hopefully with this statewide initiative to increase production I'll start seeing more places I can just gas up at instead of having to take a trip just to get it.

[WhiskeyPapa]

I have three stations that carry E85 within a mile of my office.

[InfiniteNothing]

Yeah, in the St. Louis area there's only 2 stations within a 50 mile radius that carry it. I keep lobbying my local gas station to start carrying because the state provides incentives (rebates and tax credits) to stations that carry it. Hopefully with this statewide initiative to increase production I'll start seeing more places I can just gas up at instead of having to take a trip just to get it.
I imagine adding the new grade would be really expensive. You might have to do all new pumps and add a tank.

[ray]

Living in Los Angeles makes it pretty difficult to get by without owning a car. On top of the high cost of living and the spread out cities with no reliable public transportation, there's obviously a couple ways to minimize the cost of your automobile.

You could get a car that will last decades, you could get a car that has good mileage, or you could pay a bit more and get a hybrid. In any case, everybody in LA is trying to find ways to cut costs on their commuting. Whether it's by purchasing a hybrid or finding a flex fuel ready car, there will always be the advantages and disadvantages.

Hybrids cost more up front, but will save you money if your commutes are long.

Ethanol and other fuel alternatives are difficult to come by, let alone finding a vehicle that is built to handle it (most older vehicles can't even take E85). Now, people are complaining their mileage has decreased on ethanol, but there are less harmful emissions.

Standard gasoline vehicles are cheaper than a hybrid, but gasoline is more expensive than it was 5 years ago and there are very harmful emissions.

While I am a big fan of hybrid vehicles and even alternative fuels, my best option is still to continue using my Camry despite the pollution it is creating and high gas prices that I have to pay. My roundtrip commute for work is rather short, so a hybrid vehicle wouldn't make much sense since I would be paying several thousand dollars up front that would take me 6-10 years to recoup. There is nothing mechnically wrong with my Camry, so I see no need in finding a flex fuel ready car or outfitting my Camry so it can take E85 (i'm not even sure if that's possible).

At the end of the day, people who are looking to save a few bucks will choose what ends up being cheapest for them, whether it's a hybrid, ethanol or regular car. In retrospect it's easier to say what we should have done, but looking forward nobody knows what to expect from the oil prices, longevity of hybrid vehicle batteries, tax incentives for hybrids, and the efficiency of ethanol.

I know all the auto manufacturers and the government will continue to research ways to make our cars more efficient and less pollutant, but the reality of finding something perfect is decades away.

[guiseppewv]

I imagine adding the new grade would be really expensive. You might have to do all new pumps and add a tank.


You do have to add a pump or two and a new tank. The E85 pumps are usually seperate like diesel is.

BTW - E85 at the gas station I pass everyday on my way to work is $4.10/gal compared to $2.92/gal for unleaded.

[Prngr44]

You do have to add a pump or two and a new tank. The E85 pumps are usually seperate like diesel is.

BTW - E85 at the gas station I pass everyday on my way to work is $4.10/gal compared to $2.92/gal for unleaded.

4.10???? That's nuts!

[WhiskeyPapa]

BTW - E85 at the gas station I pass everyday on my way to work is $4.10/gal compared to $2.92/gal for unleaded.Wow... E85 is $2.57 here.

[guiseppewv]

Yep, still holding at $4.10 for E85. :(

But - I did buy premium gas for under $3 which is the first time in a while. :)