is this fair?

[cheapie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Dumaresq

http://www.deadspin.com/assets/resources/2006/08/purewomanchamp.jpg


i would be SOOOO ticked if i had to race against him/her!

[MikeD]

I'm not an expert on sex-change procedures, but my first reaction would be "no, it's not fair". A better understanding of hormonal changes and how they affect physical performance would give a better understanding.

C'mon Cheapie, you could take him/her/it out! I say you challenge it right here and now!

[cheapie]

gravity. it's an incredibly important factor in downhill racing. would you say "he" has an advantage over the ladies in that respect? and it's not like a cross-country race where size is a negative on the climbs.

[RIVERWIDOW]

Its Renee Richards all over again !!

[InfiniteNothing]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Dumaresq

http://www.deadspin.com/assets/resources/2006/08/purewomanchamp.jpg


i would be SOOOO ticked if i had to race against him/her!
That's a really Fed up T-Shirt on the left. Fair or not, that's a poor loser. I also find using him/her very disrespectful. People should be able to be called by whatever pronoun they like.

[Memo]

That's a really Fed up T-Shirt on the left. Fair or not, that's a poor loser. I also find using him/her very disrespectful. People should be able to be called by whatever pronoun they like.

No way man, it's ridiculous they're letting this guy play in a women's sport. He has a huge advantage. I say it's cheating and the woman has every right to be pissed and express her feelings with the shirt.

[InfiniteNothing]

If the competition allowed her to compete and everyone knew about the transplant, then it's not cheating. It might not be fair but everyone knows what they are getting into and it's their perogative to accept the terms of the competition and lose gracefully.

[eSDee]

That's a really Fed up T-Shirt on the left. Fair or not, that's a poor loser. I also find using him/her very disrespectful. People should be able to be called by whatever pronoun they like.

:stupid: Even though it may not be "fair" per se, the shirt is pretty messed up. Bitch.

[MikeD]

Wait...which one is the man? :hehehmm:

[cheapie]

why??? except for some surgery and estrogen treatments it's a MAN BABY!!! changing your mind about which gender you want to be doesn't change your bone structure, the fact that nature has given you larger mass, including a naturally higher muscle-mass ratio. it's extremely cheap of the dude, and exceptionally weak of the federation to let him in.

[cheapie]

btw, while viewing the subject on wiki i came across the worst thing imaginable to see.

Ugh. Definitely too much even to link to on here. If anyone is interested, they can PM you for the link. :puke: - GAM

[MikeD]

btw, while viewing the subject on wiki i came across the worst thing imaginable to see.

Ugh. Definitely too much even to link to on here. If anyone is interested, they can PM you for the link. :puke: - GAM

You've got PM!

[cheapie]

:heh: sorry. i wondered if my warning and the link title was enough.

here's a link to a movie about her. it's a bit more safe. http://www.100percentwoman.com/


one thing that's ridiculous is that he claims in interviews "i just want to race my bike." if that's the case, then compete in the category you should be in and there won't be any problems! :rolleyes:

[cheapie]

You've got PM!

ok. you asked for it!

[MikeD]

ok. you asked for it!

And wish I hadn't. I with GAM, :puke:

[CornMonkey]

Wait...which one is the man? :hehehmm:
:stupid:

[Maarchk]

Well thats wrong on all counts i think. That person should realize that they aren't playing fair and should either race the harder level of competition and play up, instead of taking on the ladies. 2nd, the girl on the left and her b/f are a pair of jerks, and the federation should toss both the winner for questionable hormones ( i wonder what a urine test would say), and the girl should be tossed for orchestrating hate crimes during an organized event.
lastly, the organization should have stepped up and said look, its great that you've become a lady, but you still have things that you can't change that put you at a competitive advantage over females and we can't allow you to race. The only way i'd think it was exceptable is that if the male sport said she was too female for the event and this was the last option.

[nickel]

total cheat.

we can call the person a "her" now, but like cheapie said she was born a he and even with the change of hardware the DNA/physical capablities still say MALE.

[MrGreg]

If I was the second place winner, I'd be pissed off, too. I don't think the shirt is at all out of line.

[InfiniteNothing]

Well thats wrong on all counts i think. That person should realize that they aren't playing fair and should either race the harder level of competition and play up, instead of taking on the ladies. 2nd, the girl on the left and her b/f are a pair of jerks, and the federation should toss both the winner for questionable hormones ( i wonder what a urine test would say), and the girl should be tossed for orchestrating hate crimes during an organized event.
lastly, the organization should have stepped up and said look, its great that you've become a lady, but you still have things that you can't change that put you at a competitive advantage over females and we can't allow you to race. The only way i'd think it was exceptable is that if the male sport said she was too female for the event and this was the last option.
Who are we to tell the organization how to run a race. They can run it however they want and put people into whatever category they'd like. Maybe it's not how we'd run the organization but I don't see the point in shoulding all over them.

[InfiniteNothing]

If I was the second place winner, I'd be pissed off, too. I don't think the shirt is at all out of line.

But she chose to enter the competetion. She could have just not raced if she was just going to whine and bitch about the outcome.

[MrGreg]

But she chose to enter the competetion. She could have just not raced if she was just going to whine and bitch about the outcome.

So if she dislikes something about the race, she should just not enter? She doesn't get to voice her opinion?

[cheapie]

no but he/she could enter the guy's competition

[LPMiller]

ok, can we cut it out with the he/she?

[cheapie]

ok, can we cut it out with the he/she?



ummm...no. :rolleyes: that's the whole point. if by chopping off your johnson and taking some pills then you became entirely the other gender then there wouldn't be an issue.

but you're not. in fact, if you stop hormone replacement therapy you will "regress" to your initial gender. inherint

inequal distribution of fat and muscle is the issue. just because you want to be a woman and have taken all of the steps to do so doesn't make it apples to apples.

[neutral]

ok, can we cut it out with the he/she?
are you posting as a moderator and giving a warning that if people continue to use he/she the thread will be locked or is that your personal opinion?

[RIVERWIDOW]

If I was the second place winner, I'd be pissed off, too. I don't think the shirt is at all out of line.

There is no 2nd place winner. There is 1st loser. That shirt is by far and in more ways than one , the first loser.

[LPMiller]

are you posting as a moderator and giving a warning that if people continue to use he/she the thread will be locked or is that your personal opinion?

If I post as a GAM, I'll be a GAM.



ummm...no. that's the whole point. if by chopping off your johnson and taking some pills then you became entirely the other gender then there wouldn't be an issue.

but you're not. in fact, if you stop hormone replacement therapy you will "regress" to your initial gender. inherint

Um, no, not true. For 1 thing, you lose the testicles too, so your levels of testosterone drop, and will not magically return. Nor will you regrow a penis. The only thing that would change is your estrogene levels would go down. You might have to shave again, but then, I've known a few women that had to do that anyway.

As to the muscle mass - I don't get it. I've known a few beefy women in my time too, women would could snap me like a twig, so...would it be unfair of them as well? What about women with naturally high levels of testosterone?

When you get right down to it, there is no 'fair' in sports, because we are all unique flowers. I know women who would break your arm in an arm wrestling competition. And I look in a mirror, and see narrow hips, low muscle mass and wrist that are so tiny, I can't wear watches. So I wonder why I got jobbed on the whole 'men get more muscle mass' thing.

And when you get right down to it, this person wants to refered to as a she, went through some pretty difficult steps to become a she, and in many places, is legally considered a she, so doing the whole 'he/she' thing smacks of a high school giggle fest. The way I figure it, changing your sex is a pretty massive undertaking, not typically taken lightly, and even sometimes has some genetic basis for the change (not always, but sometimes). I have nothing but sympathy for people who, for whatever reason, are convinced they are in the wrong body. That has got to suck.

To me, saying 'he/she' over and over again is a lot like 'raghead' or whatever, because of the context. I can't say I care for it all that much.

If they organizers of the competition decided it was ok for her to compete, well then, them's the breaks. People can compete or not based on that. Don't like it, take your bike and go home.

[neutral]

If I post as a GAM, I'll be a GAM.
That is such a rude answer. I find your answers to people on this board are often rude, which I don't feel like going back and finding the posts to prove my point but if I had a company, I would not want someone with your attitude working for it. Just my opinion and no need to respond.

[Jenny]

I didn't find that rude at all. He was just saying that if he is taking GAM action, he'll do it as GAM not as LPM. What's rude in that?

[cheapie]

If I post as a GAM, I'll be a GAM.




Um, no, not true. For 1 thing, you lose the testicles too, so your levels of testosterone drop, and will not magically return. Nor will you regrow a penis. The only thing that would change is your estrogene levels would go down. You might have to shave again, but then, I've known a few women that had to do that anyway.

what? my point is that you can't throw a switch and become a woman just because you want to. if you stop the estrogen treatments your boobs go away and other items revert as well. i didn't say you grow your bits and pieces back. :rolleyes:



As to the muscle mass - I don't get it. I've known a few beefy women in my time too, women would could snap me like a twig, so...would it be unfair of them as well? What about women with naturally high levels of testosterone?

i'm not talking about the amount of muscle. sure, there are women that have a lot of muscles. but men and women inherintly add weight to their bodies in different ways. men naturally have an advantage.

if you follow endurance sports you'll notice that usually the difference between the first and second place is very minimal. however, if you compare the very best female and the very best male there is usually a fairly decent difference.

so when this dude started riding as a chick he immediately got a massive advantage. esp in a sport like downhill where muscle mass is such an important factor.



When you get right down to it, there is no 'fair' in sports, because we are all unique flowers. I know women who would break your arm in an arm wrestling competition. And I look in a mirror, and see narrow hips, low muscle mass and wrist that are so tiny, I can't wear watches. So I wonder why I got jobbed on the whole 'men get more muscle mass' thing.

and that's why you're not racing mtn bikes. but if you were one of the best women racing in the world racing against team canada and had to race someone that is not only one of the best female racers in the world, but she has the advantage of being inside a man's physique then you would likely be pissed.



And when you get right down to it, this person wants to refered to as a she, went through some pretty difficult steps to become a she, and in many places, is legally considered a she, so doing the whole 'he/she' thing smacks of a high school giggle fest. The way I figure it, changing your sex is a pretty massive undertaking, not typically taken lightly, and even sometimes has some genetic basis for the change (not always, but sometimes). I have nothing but sympathy for people who, for whatever reason, are convinced they are in the wrong body. That has got to suck.

To me, saying 'he/she' over and over again is a lot like 'raghead' or whatever, because of the context. I can't say I care for it all that much.

gender isn't a t-shirt you can switch. if you have to slice off pieces, split another one open and artificially create a hole, and take drugs to keep your body from trying to be what it was born to be don't expect me to just say, oh sure....you're really a woman.

i have sympathy for anyone that is so messed up that they want to do it. but don't expect me to just act like it's normal and that there aren't consequences. like having problems figuring out which gender you should be racing.

[LPMiller]

gender isn't a t-shirt you can switch. if you have to slice off pieces, split another one open and artificially create a hole, and take drugs to keep your body from trying to be what it was born to be don't expect me to just say, oh sure....you're really a woman.



gender is both more complicated and less complicated than you think. There isn't a large difference, geneticly, between man and woman, and as I said, there are SOME TG's that actually have a screwy XY chromesome makeup that leads to their gender confusion. So if they were given the wrong t-shirt to begin with....what's the deal? There is a very famous james bond gal who is in fact a TG, and as I recall she had a really screwy XY mix.

And what I'm saying is that even being born a man doesn't grant you those 'advantages' you speak of, and if this person was born with the wrong tshirt, there is a chance they never had them to begin with.

So is it really about being fair, or just about being weirded out?

[LPMiller]

That is such a rude answer. I find your answers to people on this board are often rude, which I don't feel like going back and finding the posts to prove my point but if I had a company, I would not want someone with your attitude working for it. Just my opinion and no need to respond.

I'm trying to figure out how I could have answered in a way that seemed polite to you. You know, the written word doesn't do a good job of showing body language or intent, you may be feeling rudeness, but I'm not going out of my way, believe me.

If I wanted to be rude, you'd not have any doubt about it. You are of course, welcome to your opinion.

[nickel]

a little side note that i found contained in the link cheapie provided. i think the t-shirt the 2nd place chick is wearing is some what of a play on words in accordance with a documentary that was made about "Michelle's controversial foray into international women's competition", which was titled 100% Woman.

http://www.100percentwoman.com/

and... upon further investigation, the woman wearing the shirt did get reprimanded and suspended for her actions.

http://www.deadspin.com/assets/resources/2006/08/purewomanchamp.jpg


The woman on the left in this photo is Danika Schroeter. She finished second in the Canadian downhill mountain biking championships last week, finishing just one second behind Michelle Dumaresq. Dumaresq is the woman in the middle. The lady on the right ... we don't know who the lady on the right is. She's not really important right now.

Dumaresq, the one in the middle, has won the title three years in a row, and this was obviously getting to Schroeter (and her boyfriend). You see, Schroeter and her flame believe Dumaresq has an unfair advantage: She used to be a man. (This is something we always learn just too late.) So Schroeter's boyfriend ran up to the podium and asked her to wear that T-shirt, which said, "100 Percent Pure Woman Champ." Which was probably a reference to Dumaresq's former possession of a penis. Though he might have meant that Schroeter was a virgin. Though we DOUBT THAT.

Anyway, the audience started screaming expletives at Dumaresq, goaded by the shirt apparently, and Schroeter was subsequently was served by the Canadian Cycling Association with a three-month suspension. That might seem a bit harsh, but hey, that's life in Canadian women's downhill mountain cycling.
http://www.deadspin.com/sports/cycling/were-only-99-44100ths-percent-pure-ourselves-194679.php