PDA

View Full Version : Santa Claus Deemed Too 'Religious' for School Fundraiser



johnnymk
12-01-2006, 04:30 PM
I think this is hilarious:

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200611/CUL20061130e.html

(CNSNews.com) - A Christmas-themed event to raise money at a public elementary school in Warwick, N.Y., has been altered to accommodate a parent's complaints that the program would illegally spotlight a "religious" figure - Santa Claus.

"Breakfast With Santa" has since been changed to "Winter Wonderland Breakfast," and -- in an effort to be inclusive of all beliefs -- the bearded one will now be joined at the Dec. 9 event by Frosty the Snowman.

Organizers made the changes after one parent charged that she and others in the community were offended that the Parent Teacher Association at the Sanfordville Elementary School was sponsoring a program geared toward one religion.

That parent, who did not wish to have her name used, wrote a letter to the school board asserting that Santa represents Christmas -- a Christian holiday -- and by law, a public school is not allowed to promote religion.

According to the Warwick Advertiser, the PTA offered to include Hanukkah traditions in the event, but the parent said she felt this still wasn't fair because it included religious activities.

"I look forward to sponsoring an event that is within the law and inclusive of all," the parent wrote in a letter to the school superintendent, Dr. Frank Greenhall. "This is not an argument about religion; it is about the law of our land. Discrimination is simply detestable."

Greenhall then contacted an attorney, who advised him in a letter that the district "should, at a minimum, modify the events to avoid potential litigation."

The complainant suggested Frosty the Snowman as an alternative icon, and the school eventually agreed to have both Frosty and Santa.

Mike Johnson, senior legal counsel for the conservative Alliance Defense Fund, told Cybercast News Service the situation was "just absurd."

"My general reaction is probably the same as 95 percent of Americans when they hear about something like this," Johnson said. "It's ridiculous that we have to think twice about whether it's OK to celebrate Christmas in public."

While acknowledging that Saint Nicholas, a Dutch bishop who had a reputation for giving gifts in secret, "clearly was the original figure that Santa is based upon," he noted that "most people would recognize Santa Claus himself as a secular-type figure."

"The underlying principle here is that the First Amendment does not guarantee any of us a right not to be offended," Johnson said. "These radical leftist types are arguing that just because 95 percent of Americans, according to recent polling, celebrate Christmas, they ought not to have that right" since a person with a different view might object.

"There's probably a small percentage of evangelical Christians in this country who don't celebrate Halloween, but would any of these leftists argue that Christians have a right to ruin the party for everyone who wants to celebrate it?" Johnson asked. "Do they have the right to tell you that you can't wish them a happy Halloween? Of course not.

"This is ultimately about religious liberty," Johnson asserted. "Everyone's rights and beliefs should be respected, and no one should be discriminated against."

Darlene Baratto, who is chairing the PTA event, told the Advertiser that, since it falls on a Saturday and attendance is optional, no one is being discriminated against.

"We have a beautiful background people can have a picture in front of," Baratto said. "That wasn't good enough. We changed the name, colors, the background," but that did not satisfy the complaining parent. "She was not open to anything. We'll have 300 or so kids who are disappointed."

Lisa Roca, another member of the breakfast committee, disputed the idea that Santa was anything but a secular character.

"Many churches try to take Santa out of Christmas because he is secular, not religious," she told the newspaper. "Their Christmas plays have nothing to do with Santa."

Catholic League President Bill Donohue called the events at the school an "exercise in tyranny."

"There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution, of course, that bans 'Breakfast with Santa' from taking place in a public school," Donohue said in a statement. "This has nothing to do with the law -- it has everything to do with bowing to the pressure of bigots."

A number of calls to the school and the PTA seeking comment for this article were not returned by press time.

Napoleon54
12-01-2006, 05:20 PM
"There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution, of course, that bans 'Breakfast with Santa' from taking place in a public school," Donohue said in a statement. "This has nothing to do with the law -- it has everything to do with bowing to the pressure of bigots."

There's also nothing in the US Constitution that says education should be run by government. IMHO, get government out of the education business, let it be taken over by private schools. If schools aren't run by government then separation of church and state isn't an issue. Then you can have all the Santa and creationism you want. The argument that "not everyone can afford a private school" is baseless 'cause there'd be plenty of money for private schools if 1) local property taxes for public school funding didn't exist, and 2) income taxes and other federal taxes weren't collected to fund education.

ShawnLee
12-01-2006, 05:31 PM
:rolleyes:

This is wee-todded.

If your ego can't handle a fat man in a jolly suit, you don't deserve to be an adult, let alone a parent.

Thesifer
12-01-2006, 05:44 PM
Uhh... Santa Clause isn't even a Christian Tradition. At least not historically. It was just kind of adopted by mainly christians cause they like Jolly Fat Guys I guess.

I'm an Atheist, and I celebrate Christmas because I don't believe it's a celebration into the "Birth of Jesus Christ" anymore.
Otherwise why would a Jolly Fat guy in a Red suit run around giving out gifts and not the Three Wisemen?

jstreet
12-01-2006, 11:38 PM
I go back and forth - I think lots of people do. Santa is obviously linked to Christmas, and Christmas is obviously a Christian tradition.

I personally celebrate Christmas as a family tradition, not a Christian one. Personally, of all Santa linkages, I feel the one to crass consumerism is stronger than the one to Christianity. My comfort zone re: Christmas extends to Santa, gift-giving and a decorated tree but stops with Jesus, mangers, things that are "holy", etc.

But, while my position as an atheist permits this sort of activity, I know that it makes other people uncomfortable, and I'm sensitive to that -- particularly when it ends up being little kids who feel left out. I'm pretty determined to not cause kids to feel any more of that than they already have to, especially not so I can feel better about how my views are being honored (in a children's play!)

At the end of the day, I don't have a problem with a secular holiday party. I don't long for Santa, and it makes me happy to know that everyone feels comfortable and included. That pretty much goes with my stance in general with public religion... set the bar to the point where everyone feels comfortable, and when you're in your own home, do the rest.

riskykougra
12-02-2006, 12:16 AM
Just curious as to how many of these parents that object to Santa and all that is Christmas still take the time and a half at work or the day off with pay to celebrate the holidays. And Im willing to bet alot of them get a nice fat Christmas bonus too. Funny how that seems to work out. Imho, if you object to the religious conotations to christmas then treat it as any other day and dont take the time off or expect any extra pay.

:cheers: and yes Ive been drinking so if this doesnt make sense I dont really care right now cause it took alot of effort to type

Napoleon54
12-02-2006, 12:20 AM
:cheers: and yes Ive been drinking so if this doesnt make sense I dont really care right now cause it took alot of effort to type

Same here! Wooooo!!! We'd expect nothing less from a Canadian!
:cheers:

riskykougra
12-02-2006, 12:23 AM
heehee,... but our beer has more alcohol in it than yours does...mmmm!
Plus its da..rn cold here right now

Napoleon54
12-02-2006, 12:25 AM
heehee,... but our beer has more alcohol in it than yours does...mmmm!
Plus its da..rn cold here right now

That's why I genrally prefer yours, heh! Cold here too, 'specially where it counts: in the 'fridge where the beer is kept.

riskykougra
12-02-2006, 12:29 AM
yup yup yup. the only bad thing tonight is that I was playing poker with Sweetpear and a bunch of other people and I was winning but she had to work in the morning and really wanted to leave so I had to go all in with pocket threes and lost all my chips...sad....so...so sad...:disa:

LPMiller
12-02-2006, 06:39 AM
"There's probably a small percentage of evangelical Christians in this country who don't celebrate Halloween, but would any of these leftists argue that Christians have a right to ruin the party for everyone who wants to celebrate it?" Johnson asked. "Do they have the right to tell you that you can't wish them a happy Halloween? Of course not.


This is so odd to me, since there IS a group of Christians that HAVE killed off Halloween parties. They did it at our school.

I do think the whole thing is stupid. Christmas is for everyone.

attgig
12-02-2006, 07:41 AM
when we recognize minority views, we're celebrating diversity.
when we recognize majority views, we're pushing other peoples beliefs on other people....


i personally would love to have the end of santa forever. I'd rather never have him around in christmas, cuz he represents everything horrible about american consumerism instead of representing generosity and giving. and if he really does represent generosity and giving, I would want him in all the advertisements, media, school parties, etc, even if he were to have originated from islamic background...



it's just interesting how reactive everyone is against each other. the left side equates anything that has christian roots as being bad, and is pushing for the govt to segregate them from christian culture, cuz they're tired of hearing about it.
The christian side feels threatened by changes may threaten their majority powers and gets all defensive about these things when they still have the same rights to worship freely, and yes, even evangelize (yes, i said that horrible 'e' word that everyone hates).

in the end, there's a huge divide between the two sides that grows even more.....
a nation united under God? yeah right.. why even say it when we're just getting more and more divided?

WhiskeyPapa
12-04-2006, 10:27 AM
I guess in my opinion, Santa Claus always represented the non-religious celebration of Christmas.

zenbooty
12-04-2006, 11:39 AM
Jeezus, its a friggin legend about a fat man on a sled pulled by FLYING REINDEER who knows every house that does and does not celebrate X-mas, visits everyone in the world that does in one night, and shimmies his portly figure down CHIMNEYS to deliver toys! How can intelligent people actually take either side of the "Christmas: human right or symptom of religious tyranny?" debate seriously? How anyone can truly feel threatened by either the inclusion or exclusion of this legend's symbology in public is beyond me.


"Strange game, the only winning move is not to play."

ialsohaveadream
12-04-2006, 12:45 PM
I guess in my opinion, Santa Claus always represented the non-religious celebration of Christmas.
:stupid: In fact, it seems like every time I drop back in here, :stupid:. WWP, say something about how GW Bush is an awesome president, so I can go back to disagreeing with you and the world can go back to turning again.

ialsohaveadream
12-04-2006, 12:48 PM
This is so odd to me, since there IS a group of Christians that HAVE killed off Halloween parties. They did it at our school.

I do think the whole thing is stupid. Christmas is for everyone.
Yeah, around here the conservatives killed off Halloween for a "fall festival", and the liberals won us "winter holiday". I anxiously await the day when seasons become offensive, and we have "Last night in October candy-thon" and "Almost a week until New Year's gift-giving day".

Markel
12-04-2006, 01:47 PM
:stupid: In fact, it seems like every time I drop back in here, :stupid:.
Ahhh - you're finally starting to see things the right way! :heh:

zippyjuan
12-04-2006, 02:08 PM
There's also nothing in the US Constitution that says education should be run by government. IMHO, get government out of the education business, let it be taken over by private schools. If schools aren't run by government then separation of church and state isn't an issue. Then you can have all the Santa and creationism you want. The argument that "not everyone can afford a private school" is baseless 'cause there'd be plenty of money for private schools if 1) local property taxes for public school funding didn't exist, and 2) income taxes and other federal taxes weren't collected to fund education.
Some interesting ideas. I agree that more private schools in competition for students and money would improve the quality of schools. Would you agree that all children should have the opportunity to attend school and get an education so that they can be contributing members of society? If you were to remove all funding - property taxes or other taxes to pay for schools, then the students and their families would have to come up with their own money for education and that would remove this opportunity from those without the resources to attend. Money invested in paying for school is returned to society. I would agree that we are not getting the return on that investment that we used to and that as I said, increasing competition among public and private schools for dollars and students could improve that, but I do not see how eleminating funding all together would.

On the issue of Santa, he started out in many cultures as a Father Christmas and like many current symbols, arose out of pagan customs. Modern marketing has tied him so thouroughly with consumerism that any religious connections for Saint Nicholas (one of his more modern names and where Santa Claus came from- the Dutch pronunciation) beyond the fact of his assiciation with Christmas season in general, which has itself lost some of its own religious connetions and become more of a cultural winter holiday. It is well established and accepted by most US citizens. You can find objections to other holidays like Columbus Day or Veterans Day. With a society as large and diverse, no matter what you do, someone will object. That does not necessarily mean that customs should change to suit that one person or group.

The Constitution talks about Freedom of Religion as one of the most important rights it enumerates. It does not say Freedom From Religion. We do not have to all become atheists or hide in our basements. It means that people should be free to celebrate their own religion without fear from persecution or prosecution based on those beliefs. No religion is to be made the main religion but neither is any religion to be discouraged. If you do not like Santa, OK, fine. Do something else that day. If the parents want to have a celebration for another religion, propose it. Have a fun Kwansa Day or Haunaka. Personally, I think all this is getting out of hand.