the Catholic Church really ticks me off.

[RIVERWIDOW]

So, I am ticked off at the treatment of a friend by the church.
This is a woman who has 4 children. All by 1 man-her husband. All going to school/preschool at a Catholic school. Goes to church every Sunday. Is at the top of the sucker list for whenever anything needs to get done at either the school or church. She is one of the nicest people I know. The problem you ask ? She was married before and divorced. So now she has a 2nd grader getting ready for her first communion and Mom is in tears trying to figure out how to explain to her child why she(the mom) cant take communion with her child on her special day BECAUSE mom is considered a member NOT in good standing because of said divorce. Now ,I ask you ,what kind of church is it that kicks you in the teeth when you are going thru a rough spot ? Oh, I know. The kind that hides and protects child molesters but tells this mother she is not good enough for their church. I will confess I have a problem with organized religion. I am not athiest or agnostic. I went to Catholic school thru 8th grade. But I just dont see the justice here. Am I missing something? Does the CC expect all their parishioners to be perfect? I just don't get it. PLEASE EXPLAIN IT TO ME.

[cruelpupet]

ummm so whats the problem? The church regularly excludes people. If she has a problem with it she can goto another church.

[zenbooty]

This is why my parents decided not to baptise me and don't go to church anymore. The catholic church is a money making machine now more than a place of faith, and they care nothing for their followers, beyond their ability to cough up their monthly contributions. Rome just doesn't get that people are fed up with the bull**** and inevitably they will continue to weaken until they disappear.

[zenbooty]

ummm so whats the problem? The church regularly excludes people. If she has a problem with it she can goto another church.To people of faith, the church and its priest are more than just a clique to join or blow off. Its a community they endeavor to be a part of and to be shunned and castigated by those community leaders who you've placed your trust and faith in is very hurtful. You don't just go to another church like you don't just leave your family and disappear, unless you've been seriously wronged in some way, and that hurts.

[The Happy Squirrel]

my mother has the same issue she was origionally married to my father divorced when i was very young remarried a few laters later and was never allowed to recieve communion again

i was raisded catholic and have many views about the church that are way too extensive and scathing to mention here

[Prngr44]

Organized religion is more or less a money making machine now more than a place of faith, and they care nothing for their followers, beyond their ability to cough up their monthly contributions.

ftfy.

[RIVERWIDOW]

ummm so whats the problem? The church regularly excludes people. If she has a problem with it she can goto another church.

The problem is, she was born and raised Catholic. Has never gone to any other church. Has been a faithful church going Catholic practioner, even though the church has basically said she is not good enough. And I am the one who has a problem with this. She is taking it as her just punishment for being divorced. I am pissed because basically the church is ruining for her ,a day that should be joyful.

[cruelpupet]

Maybe its because when i was forced to goto church it was a large enough congregation that noone payed attention to who went up or not.

[RIVERWIDOW]

Maybe its because when i was forced to goto church it was a large enough congregation that noone payed attention to who went up or not.

But see, you are missing my point. This is a person who would not go to communion and hope no one would notice. She follows the church laws to the letter EXCEPT she had the misfortune to pick a loser as her first husband and she divorced him. So, she will pay the price for the rest of her life because the church is so inflexible.

[The Happy Squirrel]

i agree puppet it always bothered me as a child to watch my mother sit by whgile the rest of the family went to communion i dont beileve its right my real father was a loser and still is and its one of the best things that my mother did leaving him life with him would have been intollerable and down right hazzardous to herself and my bro and I and i dont believe its right for her to be ostracised just becuase she her the will to make a better life for herself and her children

[cruelpupet]

reeligion sucks and there is no invisible man in the sky, so the whole communion thing is a moot point IMO

[ShawnLee]

So I say, become a Protestant? It sucks, but what else is to be done?

[eSDee]

Like many people I was raised in the Catholic Church and early on realized the hypocrisy within it. However I knew many many good people who believed whole heartedly in it, many of them family members who were what many people, even "non-believers" believed to be good people. The people who I found to be the "best" people within the church were those who were able to sift through the literal translations of the Bible and find the core tools within. Those being judge not, others before you, be thankful of what you have, and most importantly, let people find God however they can. I believe that a lot of smart people can figure these things out on their own, but for a lot of others, they can get these from the Bible if they are open to it. Either way, being spiritual is not a bad thing.

Even though I always felt spiritual I stopped going to church for a while thinking that I would never be able to conform with the traditional ideals of the Church. However there are churches out here in Cali who are more progressive, and they translate the doctrine differently. I like the Church that I am a part of. They question what man has decided is "holy". They also believe that if you go to church every sunday it doesn't give you free reign over the commandments (ie christians thinking its ok to kill if country decides it's ok). The core good things about Christianity are there, and although there are things that make it Catholic (confession, Mary statues, etc.) it is not exclusive. It is a welcoming community and it is moving towards a direction which will be crucial towards saving the spirituality of lots of Catholics, as well (and more importantly) those who were spurned along the way.

I have more to say but I'll leave it at that for now. I need some sleep.

[Jeffbx]

Esdee makes some good points. I've walked out of Catholic services before because I wholeheartedly disagreed with what was being said. The church I attend now is much more in line with my beliefs & I'm quite happy attending with my family, even though I also disagree with many organized religions in general.

The point is that your religious experiences are what you make them. If you allow yourself to be bullied by the church's rules, you're going to be unhappy. Take my in-laws - they're both divorced & remarried after failed marraiges. They are religious (heh) about attending mass & think nothing of whether the church thinks they're in good standing or not. They act like & believe they *are* in good standing, ergo they are. They stand up & take communion every Sunday & are perfectly content with it.

If the church your friend attends is so draconian about the rules that they won't allow her to take communion with her child, maybe it's time to find a new parish. The catholic church is so massive that odds are really good of finding another parish where teachings are more in line with what she believes.

[faither]

There was (maybe is) remedy available to her. If she's been a Catholic her whole life she probably knew that from the time she and her first husband divorced she could have sought an annulment of the first marriage. I've had family and friends go down that road without incident.

I can't tell from your post if this is a road she attempted to travel. To paint her as a victim now based on the current circumstance and the Church as the oppressor is wrong. If she's been taking her children to Mass all these years and didn't receive, not receiving during her daughter's first Holy Communion shouldn't be that traumatic.

I could see being pissed off if there wasn't something in place to address this situation but the fact that there is leads me to think your anger is misguided.

That's my two cents.

[Napoleon54]

There was (maybe is) remedy available to her. If she's been a Catholic her whole life she probably knew that from the time she and her first husband divorced she could have sought an annulment of the first marriage. I've had family and friends go down that road without incident.

I smell a Catholic. :heh:

But that's what I was wondering as well, more details about the divorce and remarriage. Did both marriages occur within the church, and if so, how'd she pull that off?

DISCLAIMER: At this point my patchwork knowledge of the workings of the Catholic church might be more dangerous than it's worth 'cause I might not have it entirely right. But I'll give it a shot. I know I risk throwing the whole discussion off with misinformation, so sorry in advance if that turns out to be the case.

If the first marriage wasn't a Catholic marriage then in their eyes it wasn't a true marriage at all and there shouldn't be a problem. If it was and she got divorced, then the first one would have to be annulled by the church before she could have a second Catholic marriage. Since she's having this problem with taking communion, I'm guessing that the second marriage was NOT Catholic. I believe this is because the Catholic church views both marriage and the eucharist as sacraments, and since she "violated" the first one, she's therefore excluded from the second.

Someone please tell me if that's right or not, and correct if necessary.

[gwilks98]

What about reconciliation? Do they exclude her from that? No sin is too great for it, in the eyes of the church, so why doesn't she just go beg for forgiveness and restore her "good standing" status?

[cadetevon]

If her marriage was in "bad form" or if she divorced because he was abusive, didn't wish to raise the kids Catholic, or several other reasons she can either get it annulled (meaning it happened but for extenuating circumstances there was a divorce, and that it’s forgiven) or declared in "bad form" (which basically means that in the eyes of the Church it never happened).

Was she always Catholic? Was the ex-husband Catholic? Was she unclear when she got the divorce what steps needed to be taken to remain in good standing with the Church?

[faither]

I smell a Catholic. :heh:

Oh, no. Now I'm giving off a smell. :heh:

Re the question of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, I think it's only Communion that's off base.

"Divorced Catholics often "consider themselves separated from the Church" but the Pope states that they have the obligation to
"share in her life. They should be encouraged to listen to the word of God, to attend the Sacrifice of the Mass, to persevere in prayer, to contribute to the works of charity and to community efforts in favor of justice, to bring up their children in the Catholic faith, to cultivate the spirit and practice of penance and thus implore, day by day, God's grace. Let the Church pray for them, encourage them, and show herself a merciful mother.... However, the Church reaffirms her practice, which is based on Sacred Scripture, of not admitting to Eucharistic Communion divorced persons who have remarried."

Link to this and other stuff...http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/REMARDIV.TXT

[chrissy]

So, I am Catholic.
I haven't been allowed to take communion since 1994 because I married my first husband out of the church without permission of the church. Not a problem for me then because I was pissed at the church for things already stated above.

Moving on to now, I too, help at CCD (religion education) help with alter servers and my kids take communion and are active in church. When Audrey recieved her first holy communion, I still was not allowed. She asked why and I explained it to her. She understood I broke the rules and I cannot take it. But I also know how to fix it and I have.

I got a "Lack of Form" annulment and now, Donnie and I will have our marriage blessed on June 16 and I will be able to take communion.

She should be able to do the same. Maybe not a lack of Form, but there are different types of annulments if she truely wants to be in good graces again.

[zippyjuan]

Has she spoken with the pastor? The focus on bible teachings is supposed to be forgiveness of sins if one is repentent and believes in God which certainly seems to apply to this woman.

[Napoleon54]

Has she spoken with the pastor? The focus on bible teachings is supposed to be forgiveness of sins if one is repentent and believes in God which certainly seems to apply to this woman.

Tell that to the Catholics...

[cadetevon]

Ahhhh, lack of form, not bad form. I knew it was something like that.

[ArkiStan]

There are many ither religions out there to choose from. You should let her know in case she's been misguided.

[chrissy]

Tell that to the Catholics...


What do you mean?

I had/have the same issue as the OP's friend. I have been "forgiven", if that is what you want to call it, by the church and I am able to have my current marriage recognized by the church.

We don't know if the friend has asked about annulments, or if she wanted to, she could straight out go to a new Catholic church and start taking communion if her conscience lets her.
She is punishing herself by not taking the proper steps. I was ashamed to ask and when I finally did, it took a month to get the annulment and a few months to get a copy of Donnie's baptism certificate. We now have a date.

Why is the church to blame in any of this? They have their rules, if you don't like them, leave it and find one that suits your needs for the day, week, month, whenever the going gets rough.

[Paymaster]

Count me in as another catholic. Sorta. I was raised catholic, and believe in God, but don't buy into a lot of what the churches do. I don't attend mass.

Anyway, not really helping the situation here, but just agreeing with the notion that the church is really hypocritical. Just before communion, we say
"Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but just say the word and I shall be healed."
But that apparently doesn't mean anything if the *church* has decided that you are not worthy.

[Napoleon54]

Has she spoken with the pastor? The focus on bible teachings is supposed to be forgiveness of sins if one is repentent and believes in God which certainly seems to apply to this woman.

Tell that to the Catholic Church...
(Fixed, sorry. I didn't mean anything personally. My beef is with the Church, not individuals.)

What do you mean?

This gets right to the heart of why I am not a Catholic, even though I was born and baptised and raised as one.

The Catholic Church traces its roots back to Jesus himself telling Peter to establish a church. As such, it claims to act on the authority of God and in many ways essentially claims to act as his representative on Earth. It essentially acts as an intermediary between people and God, rather than promoting a personal relationship between the two. Examples: Catholics don't confess to God, they confess to their church. Catholics generally don't read the bible, they go to mass and have it read to them and interpreted for them.

IMHO the Catholic Church focuses way too much on procedure and ritual and rules, rather than on the message of Jesus and on faith itself. It has lost sight of the true message, which is of compassion and faith and forgiveness. That's where RIVERWIDOW's friend has run into problems.

But perhaps the thing I dislike the most about the Catholic Church is its long-standing disrespect for other religions and other denominations of Christianity. It exudes a sense of arrogance and superiority. Here I'm going to stereotype Catholics a bit, but it's more often true than not: you say the word "protestant", and they roll their eyes and take pity on (or show contempt for) those ignorant, misguided, unfaithful people who are all going to hell for not being part of The True Church.

[Houdini]

As far as the friend who can't take communion, there may be ways to get dispensations. I'm not sure of the specifics, but a local archbishop or even cardinal may be able to pull some strings, if it's for the right reasons, etc.

I was also raised Catholic and still am. My mother, however, was not. She was Protestant. She's always gone to mass with us every Sunday, but has skipped the communion. It's more of a matter of understanding what the sacrament means.



The Catholic Church traces its roots back to Jesus himself telling Peter to establish a church. As such, it claims to act on the authority of God and in many ways essentially claims to act as his representative on Earth. It essentially acts as an intermediary between people and God, rather than promoting a personal relationship between the two. Examples: Catholics don't confess to God, they confess to their church. Catholics generally don't read the bible, they go to mass and have it read to them and interpreted for them.


Er...no. OF COURSE Catholics confess sins to God and read the Bible, etc. The sacrament of penance/reconciliation/confession/whatever has almost nothing to do with the Church itself. It's more of a reminder that God forgives sins. You can tell someone anything you've done with absolute certainty that it will not be revealed. Helps a lot of people to get things off their chests, and the priest says a prayer with you. The Church in no way acts as an intermediary.



IMHO the Catholic Church focuses way too much on procedure and ritual and rules, rather than on the message of Jesus and on faith itself. It has lost sight of the true message, which is of compassion and faith and forgiveness. That's where RIVERWIDOW's friend has run into problems.


I wouldn't extend that sentiment to the entire Church any more than I would assume that my neighborhood priest (well, this is NOLA, so there's a Catholic church about every 5 blocks) is a child molester. Some parishes go all out with the incense and stuff, some don't. I went to a church for a while in Columbus, MS when I was in high school and the priest literally SANG the entire mass. And during the homily, he just grabbed a wireless make and walked around, down the aisles, etc. A real showman. Mass at St. Louis Cathedral (well, now it's a minor bascillica b/c the Pope was here a while back) is pretty boring, but the Tridentine Mass at St. Patrick's is kinda cool, with the Latin, etc. I like checking out local churches when I travel, just to see how things go. One of the most moving masses I've been to was held on the alter where, suspended above, was St. Francis of Assisi's casket. Very small, quiet, etc. Then it was interrupted by a bunch of Japanese tourists with Nikons who stormed the (small, underground - survived the earthquake) place in the middle of the service.



But perhaps the thing I dislike the most about the Catholic Church is its long-standing disrespect for other religions and other denominations of Christianity. It exudes a sense of arrogance and superiority. Here I'm going to stereotype Catholics a bit, but it's more often true than not: you say the word "protestant", and they roll their eyes and take pity on (or show contempt for) those ignorant, misguided, unfaithful people who are all going to hell for not being part of The True Church.

See, I don't see that. I've never been told that any other religions or beliefs are inferior. I was raised almost Captist, or Bathlic, or whatever. If anything, Pope JPII did more to reach out to other beliefs, doctrines, and religions (counting Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Orthodox splinters, etc) than any one or combination of the above has ever done toward Catholicism. If anything, over the past 100 years or so, plenty of people have been persecuted for being Catholic. Hitler killed a bunch. The KKK killed a bunch. The country was aghast when JFK won the Presidency.

To me it seems, no matter how hard Catholics reach out, without apologizing for beliefs that affect nobody else and actually AGREE with the vast majority of others' beliefs, misconceptions, which I've tried to address here and in countless past threads (re: literal stuff, homosexuality, etc.), Catholics will keep getting a bad rap.

It's all scare tactics. I've been accused of worshiping Mary. I've been accused of praying to the Pope. I've been accused of believing everything the Pope says because he's "infallible" (yeah, like once/century or two in an ex-cathedra statement.)

I guess I'm in an interesting position of having strong faith and convictions, but I was always encouraged to discuss doctrinal differences with priests, other family members (Methodist, Baptist, whathaveyou.) Do I believe that, on a particular day, it is vital that one walk into a particular building for a particular ritual in order to be seen positively in God's eyes? No. If you just go through the motions, you miss what's really happening, and what could really happen - the good stuff. And it's a good time to ask for the grace of forgiveness, of course. :)

As far as the money thing, I just wish they would pay priests more. Kinda like firemen or cops. Even if they don't ask for raises. I've known priests who are also, say, nurses who stand in the rain with an umbrella in one hand and a blood pressure cuff in the other, working with docs to give meds and food to the poor. Without the strong backbone that an organization like the already-organized Church provides (without Self-Interest), the poor, etc., would lose out on a lot of stuff. Priests will pray with non-Catholics, and I've never seen a priest try to convert a patient or anyone else he's counseling.

That said, in full disclosure, I did see a priest for some counseling after a traumatic incident a while back. After putting some things in perspective for me, giving me some ideas to think and pray about, I felt a lot better. And this was the kind of thing that people often never feel much better from. Tragic loss, as a few of you know.


H <---your local avowed Catholic who has a fairly recent Catechism lying around somewhere.

[johnnymk]

Guess who's going to heaven? Only those who confess that Jesus Christ is their saviour. This is what the Bible says.

Once a person is born again, he is eternally saved, all of his/her sins are forgiven...past, present and future.

He/she is not justified by any works that he has done in his entire life. He/she is not justified by his attendance at church, money given to the poor, keeping the ten commandments, and so on. He is not justified by works but by believing in the finished work of what Jesus did on the cross.

Salvation is a free gift, and please note the word "gift". You don't have to work for a gift, you just accept it.

This is the problem with the great majority of churches not just in America but the rest of the world. They preach that you must earn your way to Heaven and do works to please God. Nothing could be farther from the Truth.

Fortunately, God the Father knew that man was in a dilemma and could not please Him, because he demands 100% perfection. Man is a sinner through and through not only by birth but by thought and deed.

So he devised a method where he would send his Son to die as a ransom for many. He died on a cross as predcted in the Old Testament at the right time and right place in history. His death is a substitute in the Father's eyes and mind for believers who accept that fact. Once a person believes that, he becomes born again and will live eternally without having to worry about the future consequences of his sin or lack of belief.

His fate is sealed on that very day by the agreement of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

[Jeffbx]

But perhaps the thing I dislike the most about the Catholic Church is its long-standing disrespect for other religions and other denominations of Christianity. It exudes a sense of arrogance and superiority. Here I'm going to stereotype Catholics a bit, but it's more often true than not: you say the word "protestant", and they roll their eyes and take pity on (or show contempt for) those ignorant, misguided, unfaithful people who are all going to hell for not being part of The True Church.

Well geez, you can say that about ANY religion. Catholics certainly don't corner the market on arrogance & superiority. Maybe you're hanging around a different crowd, but in the Catholic churches I've attended, the opposite is actually true - there is a great deal of focus on being open to other faiths, how Christians, Jews & Muslims all worship the same god, there is collaboration on community fundraisers with other churches of different faith, etc. I honestly can't think of a single time where I've heard any other faith put down or mentioned in a negative light.

Granted, there certainly are the 'old school' people who are intolerant of anything at all that is contrary to their beliefs, but you find those people in every single faith.