VA Tech...Let The Second Guessing Begin

[faither]

The act is horrendous but the second guessing is more divisive and so wrong in its own right. These stories make me sick to my stomach.
_____________________

Parents Demand Firing of Virginia Tech President, Police Chief Over Poor Handling of Mass Shooting
Monday, April 16, 2007

Parents of a Virginia Tech student expressed outrage Monday at what they call an inadequate response by college brass to the worst mass-murder shooting in American history.

John and Jennifer Shourds of Lovettsville, Va. demanded the immediate firings of University President Charles Steger and Virginia Tech Campus Police Chief W.R. Flinchum who he said "screwed up" the handling of separate shooting incidents that left 33 students dead, including the shooter.

“My God, if someone shoots somebody there should be an immediate lockdown of the campus,” said John Shourds. “They totally blew it. The president blew it, campus police blew it.”

The Shourds said they received a phone call from their daughter, Alexandra, a freshman at the college in Blacksburg, who was unsure of how to handle a vague university e-mail received around 9:20 a.m. regarding the first shooting incident that happened at the West Ambler Johnston Hall around 7:15 a.m. Later, it was learned that a lone gunman entered that hall, two buildings away from Alexandra’s dorm, and opened fire, killing two people.

Shourds said the e-mail left no detailed information of how the students should proceed and didn’t call for a campus lockdown. There were no public safety announcements or warnings before the second shooting at Norris Hall that killed 30 people.

John Shourd said he told his daughter to stay put and avoid her 10 a.m. class until the university sent more information.

At about 9:50 a.m., Alexandra Shourds told her father a subsequent e-mail was sent to students instructed them to stay put and not go anywhere. An e-mail announcing the cancellation of classes for the day didn’t come until 10:16 a.m., said John Shourds.

He said many lives could have been saved had the school locked down the campus immediately after the first shooting.

“A lockdown may have not have stopped the killing but it could have lessened the tragedy,” said Shourds.

At a press conference, Steger said authorities believed that the shooting at the dorm was a domestic dispute and mistakenly thought the gunman had fled the campus and defended the university’s handling of the tragedy.

"We had no reason to suspect any other incident was going to occur," Steger said. "We can only make decisions based on the information you had on the time. You don't have hours to reflect on it."

Shourds said he believes the school delayed the call to lock down the school because there was only approximately two weeks left until the end of the semester.

John Shourds was at Washington, D.C.’s Dulles airport dropping another daughter off for her flight back to college at Michigan State University when he got the first call from Alexandra.

Since that call, Shourds said he and his family have felt anger, fear and indignation over the day’s events. The Shourds have been trying to contact their daughter as much as possible and John Shourds said they would have been on their way to see Alexandra had they had any success in booking hotels in the Blacksburg area.

He said no apology or excuse will meet his satisfaction without the ouster of the university’s top officials. He wasn’t pleased with the Steger’s comments after the incident, either.

“I hold this president completely accountable,” said Shourds. “They are cowards. They can’t come out and say they made a mistake.”

Shourds said he is second-guessing his decision to push his daughter towards Virginia Tech, where several of his nieces and nephews have attended. Many of those relatives have called to offer support to the family and Shourds said many are equally displeased with the university’s initial response.

He said he initially expected the university to respond as it did to an incident last August, during Alexandra’s first day of class, where the campus was locked down due to a manhunt over an escaped inmate who allegedly killed a hospital guard and a sheriff’s deputy.

His daughter told him she received an e-mail warning while in class of a lockdown of all academic buildings that day. Each Virginia Tech student carries a laptop.

“There are also loudspeaker systems attached to poles along the campus,” said Shourds. “The warning system worked.”

However, John Shourds said he had doubts about the effectiveness of Virginia Tech’s campus police from the start. He called the force, “an Andy Griffith and Barney Fife” operation.

"They are really small police force for 20,000 students and they are not the best and the brightest,” said Shourds.

He said he’s leaning towards keeping his daughter at the school after this semester due to positive feedback about the school’s academic program and a learning abroad trip to Spain this summer. He said he trusts the school will do the right thing in his opinion and fire Steger and Flinchum immediately.

FOXNews' Liza Porteus and The Associated Press contributed to this article.

[VTGreg]

It's all being fueled by the media. ABC news actually has a poll up asking if Steger (VT's president) should be fired. I graduated from VT in '01 and am very proud of how the administration and students have handled the aftermath.

I am appalled by the media coverage, but unfortunately, I am not surprised at the reaction. I realize that everyone is attempting to place blame and hopefully now that the identity of the shooter is released, most of it will be placed on him, but think that many of the comments and discussions yesterday where abhorrent and completely uncalled for given the fact that the facts were not known and parents were still attempting to determine if their children were safe. The media outlets could have provided much assistance but instead resorted to sensationalistic reporting and ratings in lieu of helping the situation. I have a new found respect for Shepard Smith from Fox News who has kept from piling on and tried to exhibit restraint until the facts are known but others at Fox and most at CNN should be ashamed of themselves.

[cheapie]

blame canada

[YellowCoffee]

It's all being fueled by the media. ABC news actually has a poll up asking if Steger (VT's president) should be fired. I graduated from VT in '01 and am very proud of how the administration and students have handled the aftermath.

I am appalled by the media coverage, but unfortunately, I am not surprised at the reaction. I realize that everyone is attempting to place blame and hopefully now that the identity of the shooter is released, most of it will be placed on him, but think that many of the comments and discussions yesterday where abhorrent and completely uncalled for given the fact that the facts were not known and parents were still attempting to determine if their children were safe. The media outlets could have provided much assistance but instead resorted to sensationalistic reporting and ratings in lieu of helping the situation. I have a new found respect for Shepard Smith from Fox News who has kept from piling on and tried to exhibit restraint until the facts are known but others at Fox and most at CNN should be ashamed of themselves.

I completely agree. I also think that it must extremely confusing for the parents of those who died. I think as rational beings, we try and find a reason for such horrid events. The parents/loved-ones must be confused and lost. I don't agree w/ the way they're going about this, but I can somewhat understand that their actions may be a bit irrational (especially right after these events).

[Jihforce]

blame canada
Can't, the are making the Dodge Challenger for us! I couldn't possibly do that. Hehe.

[ArkiStan]

.edit

[MikeD]

The act is horrendous but the second guessing is more divisive and so wrong in its own right. These stories make me sick to my stomach.

:agree:

Sick to my stomach is dead on. The media really sucks sometimes...actually, nearly all the time.

[ShawnLee]

Ugh... Bury the dead first and heal the wounded. Let the facts come out. The idiot jack-hole who murdered these people- that's who you blame. Anyone else is so far back in second place in the blame game that they might as well not register at this point.

My initial reaction DID skim to that first. Especially knowing that there was a 2 hour gap between the incidents. But, I heard an explanation, and I'm satisfied for now. People can't even wait...

[Houdini]

As early as yesterday afternoon, MSNBC had cops and gun experts on, and were asking them how easy it is to get, shoot, etc., a gun. Then they were blaming the admin for not mass-evacuating the school - thousands of people - (which may have actually given the shooter more targets, albeit moving.) Then they had people calling for more gun control, etc. Only a couple of police officers over a couple of hours were able to squeeze in the point that the guy already broke all sorts of gun control laws. Adding more wouldn't matter.

Now people are calling for the admin's firing. That's simply ridiculous.

[Napoleon54]

Hurt, scared, and angry people are often much too quick to spout off their rash knee-jerk opinions. Christ, the bodies aren't even cold yet. Let things simmer down and pan out a bit before calling for peoples' heads to roll. Yeah I can understand why some people (like the Shourds mentioned in the article) are saying what they're saying- they're shocked and not thinking rationally. I doubt they'll be saying the same things a week from now after they've had a chance to calm down. But shame on the media for being so quick to put a microphone in someone's hand when they're clearly just angry and hurt and not thinking rationally.

[VTGreg]

Hurt, scared, and angry people are often much too quick to spout off their rash knee-jerk opinions. Christ, the bodies aren't even cold yet. Let things simmer down and pan out a bit before calling for peoples' heads to roll. Yeah I can understand why some people (like the Shourds mentioned in the article) are saying what they're saying- they're shocked and not thinking rationally. I doubt they'll be saying the same things a week from now after they've had a chance to calm down. But shame on the media for being so quick to put a microphone in someone's hand when they're clearly just angry and hurt and not thinking rationally.

I don't fault anyone for having those feelings right now. However, the media is trying to spin every comment from a VT student to get them to hold the administration responsible. From what I have seen, there is overwhelming support for President Steger and the VT PD and how they handled the situation. Unfortunately, none of those comments or gestures have been broadcast nationally. Instead, all we see are the few that are not happy with the University's response. I even heard a comment from Geraldo this morning, during his interview with President Steger, saying 80-90% of the students he spoke with questioned the response. However, in all of the interviews I saw last night, despite the interviewers phrasing the question to bait a comment, most did not question the response.

[tupacboy]

i can't even watch the news anymore... today's media is just stupid...

[Houdini]

The more info that gets out, the more second-guessing, of both the school's response, the student's mental health, and broader things like gun control are hitting the media.

In the past 20 minutes, I've seen commentators allege that antidepressants, which he MIGHT have been on, could have made him do this thing. That is true evidence of misinformation/lack of education regarding antidepressants. I'll discuss this stuff in another thread.

Sounds like the school did what it could have done, along with the city police and county sheriff's office. Evacuating 25k people isn't something that's done quickly and/or orderly and necessarily safely.

A Democrat on MSNBC was already calling for more gun control, arguing against handguns, and then arguing against "needing more than ten rounds of ammunition in a magazine." Actually, she said "clip" which further discredits her. People are just so misinformed. Another guy, talking about the Brady bill, likened the whole thing to McVeigh, and somehow wove into the conversation "cop killer bullets," (which is a meaningless phrase,) Clinton's "deer with kevlar" line, which is also well, stupid, and "we should ban automatic rifles as hunters don't need them." He needs to reread the federal laws, as autos have been tightly controlled for 70+ years. The guy probably broke 15 gun laws anyway.

So yeah, second guessing this early pisses me off. And bringing politics, like gun control, and issues that most people don't understand (like guns and mental health meds) into the picture under some semblance of authoritative facts, are just wrong in any case like this.

I'll work on a thread in poli about more of the legislative stuff, especially the gun stuff, as it's already being tossed around ever 5 minutes on the networks. I may even disclose some very relevant stuff that only a few here already know. But if anyone else wants to start a thread, go ahead. Otherwise I'll just be "that gun nut" who doesn't know anything about medicine or psychiatry. Then I'm liable to take some offense. ;)

BTW, nobody has asked, but my new avatar is what I'll look like in a movie coming out next year. They cut my hair, used a lot of makeup to make me look younger, dirtier, bloodier, and more uniform. So that's not quite what I look like. But after running across a battlefield with explosives going off, falling over people, crawling through smoke and fake barbed wire, and jumping out of muddy trenches 20 times! - it's a Fincher movie, go figure - I couldn't move my legs for a week and the bruises were there for about 2. I just thought it was a cool picture. WWI by the way.

[VTGreg]

The more info that gets out, the more second-guessing, of both the school's response, the student's mental health, and broader things like gun control are hitting the media.

In the past 20 minutes, I've seen commentators allege that antidepressants, which he MIGHT have been on, could have made him do this thing. That is true evidence of misinformation/lack of education regarding antidepressants. I'll discuss this stuff in another thread.

Sounds like the school did what it could have done, along with the city police and county sheriff's office. Evacuating 25k people isn't something that's done quickly and/or orderly and necessarily safely.

A Democrat on MSNBC was already calling for more gun control, arguing against handguns, and then arguing against "needing more than ten rounds of ammunition in a magazine." Actually, she said "clip" which further discredits her. People are just so misinformed. Another guy, talking about the Brady bill, likened the whole thing to McVeigh, and somehow wove into the conversation "cop killer bullets," (which is a meaningless phrase,) Clinton's "deer with kevlar" line, which is also well, stupid, and "we should ban automatic rifles as hunters don't need them." He needs to reread the federal laws, as autos have been tightly controlled for 70+ years. The guy probably broke 15 gun laws anyway.

So yeah, second guessing this early pisses me off. And bringing politics, like gun control, and issues that most people don't understand (like guns and mental health meds) into the picture under some semblance of authoritative facts, are just wrong in any case like this.

I'll work on a thread in poli about more of the legislative stuff, especially the gun stuff, as it's already being tossed around ever 5 minutes on the networks. I may even disclose some very relevant stuff that only a few here already know. But if anyone else wants to start a thread, go ahead. Otherwise I'll just be "that gun nut" who doesn't know anything about medicine or psychiatry. Then I'm liable to take some offense. ;)

BTW, nobody has asked, but my new avatar is what I'll look like in a movie coming out next year. They cut my hair, used a lot of makeup to make me look younger, dirtier, bloodier, and more uniform. So that's not quite what I look like. But after running across a battlefield with explosives going off, falling over people, crawling through smoke and fake barbed wire, and jumping out of muddy trenches 20 times! - it's a Fincher movie, go figure - I couldn't move my legs for a week and the bruises were there for about 2. I just thought it was a cool picture. WWI by the way.

Virginia Governor Tim Kaine called out anyone using this tragedy for political gain in a press conference after today's convocation. I was very impressed with both his and President Bush's address today. I also cannot say enough how impressed I have been with all of the VT students that have been interviewed. They make all of us Hokies very proud.

[Houdini]

Virginia Governor Tim Kaine called out anyone using this tragedy for political gain in a press conference after today's convocation. I was very impressed with both his and President Bush's address today. I also cannot say enough how impressed I have been with all of the VT students that have been interviewed. They make all of us Hokies very proud.

I heard the speeches on the radio while driving today. Bush really did impress me. I haven't heard anyone sound as sincere since his appearances after Katrina, the tornadoes in AL, 9/11, etc. And they had closed door meetings with families. Very nice. You have to give credit to Bush for that. He's truly spiritual and compassionate and comforting during times of tragedy. He really seems to put others before himself. We should all try to emulate that. I'd want to talk to him if something like that were to arise, if I were unfortunately present at such a tragedy.

[LPMiller]

i am so tired of the gun debates, but it's only typical that whenever something like this happens, we go off half cocked and half assed. Like banning guns would solve the problem of mental health. Guys like this just don't grow out of the ether. There are a whole host of things that lead to this, the gun is just the weapon of choice. You want to prevent this sort of thing, back track to the causes, don't lip service the symptom.

[Napoleon54]

i am so tired of the gun debates, but it's only typical that whenever something like this happens, we go off half cocked and half assed. Like banning guns would solve the problem of mental health. Guys like this just don't grow out of the ether. There are a whole host of things that lead to this, the gun is just the weapon of choice. You want to prevent this sort of thing, back track to the causes, don't lip service the symptom.

:stupid:

Why do critics choose to ignore the fact that if even ONE person involved in the whole situation had been packing heat, this nutcase could've been taken out and the rampage ended much quicker. Instead, they want everyone to be defenseless in situations like these. :2far:

[LPMiller]

Don't misunderstand me. Chances are, someone was. He wasn't the only kid in school with a gun. It's a fantasy that if we all just had guns, things like this wouldn't happen. It's the rare person that can handle themselves when the bullets are flying overhead. If the right person was packing heat, and could aim well enough under fire to hit the guy where he wasn't wearing a vest, sure. Cops have a hard time doing that. People miss more often then not under fire, according to various police studies.

The solution isn't at the tail end of the problem. It's not more guns or less guns.

[TruckStuff]

This is what the media does. I was at Texas A&M when Bonfire collapsed a few years ago killing 12 students. There were the same bullcrap stories about everything that was done wrong, what should have been done, why it wasn't done, etc. The same asshats come out of the wood work anytime there is something like this. As tragic as it is, the world is full of leaches and slime balls who have to get their two minutes of face time. And believe me, there are enough crazies in the world that its not hard for the media to find someone willing to go on TV and give any POV.

[Napoleon54]

Don't misunderstand me. Chances are, someone was. He wasn't the only kid in school with a gun. It's a fantasy that if we all just had guns, things like this wouldn't happen. It's the rare person that can handle themselves when the bullets are flying overhead. If the right person was packing heat, and could aim well enough under fire to hit the guy where he wasn't wearing a vest, sure. Cops have a hard time doing that. People miss more often then not under fire, according to various police studies.

The solution isn't at the tail end of the problem. It's not more guns or less guns.

Based on the casualty count, I'm going to estimate the numbers directly involved in this shooting as being roughly one shooter to 200 students and faculty. 1:200. You can say 1:100 if you want to be conservative, but it doesn't matter. What is important is the fact that as far as weapons go, the attacker had a 2:0 advantage. It is damn near IMPOSSIBLE to prevent people who want to do harm from acquiring weapons. The best way to prevent or mitigate events like this is to adopt a much more reasonable and logical attitude towards guns in our society and laws. If the ratio was even 2:1 or 2:2, or better yet 2:10, imagine the difference that would make. Asshat walks into a classroom and gets in the first shots, kills a handful of people before getting gunned down himself. Body count decreases from 33 to 5. As the number of potential victims who are armed increases, the body count decreases inversely. There's no arguing against that.

But instead, asshat walked around completely unchallenged and shooting people at will. The only limit to this rampage was the amount of ammo he had on him and the amount of killing he wanted to do before taking his own life. The trend of gun legislation in this country takes guns out of the hands of people who need them. As such, in most circumstances the only chance that innocent people have is the small likelihood that an off duty police officer or member of the military happens to be present. That's just plain wrong. It is immoral to disarm citizens and leave them defenseless in these situations. People have the right to have at their disposal the tools necessary for defending themselves. Plain and simple.

[Houdini]

But instead, asshat walked around completely unchallenged and shooting people at will. The only limit to this rampage was the amount of ammo he had on him and the amount of killing he wanted to do before taking his own life. The trend of gun legislation in this country takes guns out of the hands of people who need them. As such, in most circumstances the only chance that innocent people have is the small likelihood that an off duty police officer or member of the military happens to be present. That's just plain wrong. It is immoral to disarm citizens and leave them defenseless in these situations. People have the right to have at their disposal the tools necessary for defending themselves. Plain and simple.

Agree with most of that. Perhaps it would be better to address in poli though. I have lots of information and experience that may contribute to the discussion.

[Napoleon54]

Agree with most of that. Perhaps it would be better to address in poli though. I have lots of information and experience that may contribute to the discussion.


Well, then start a thread. :shrug:

[LPMiller]

But instead, asshat walked around completely unchallenged and shooting people at will. The only limit to this rampage was the amount of ammo he had on him and the amount of killing he wanted to do before taking his own life. The trend of gun legislation in this country takes guns out of the hands of people who need them. As such, in most circumstances the only chance that innocent people have is the small likelihood that an off duty police officer or member of the military happens to be present. That's just plain wrong. It is immoral to disarm citizens and leave them defenseless in these situations. People have the right to have at their disposal the tools necessary for defending themselves. Plain and simple.

sure, in an ideal world. Yet most people were packing heat in the old west and Jesse James still managed to cut a rug. Again, you are solving the problem at the wrong end.

It's getting pretty obvious that this kid fell right through our mental health and legal system. There is the middle of the problem, and a much more effective way of preventing this sort of thing.

Based on his writings, it is apparent that this kid was abused in some way. That is the start of the problem. I dunno how to fix that, but if you could do that, then the problem goes away for good.

Arming everyone IS a solution, I suppose, but it strikes me that it's just at the wrong end of the problem. It's really the last resort, when all else fails.

I am not against guns at all, though I don't own one, I've shot them and my dad was a big gun man. I think we are fairly impractical on both sides of the gun issue - one side wants them to go away and that will never ever happen even if the second amendment magically vanishes overnight. That genie is out of the bottle, and armed. Good luck getting it back in.

I also don't believe that the right to bear arms means any and all arms. A sword is a weapon, I can't carry one and I don't see anyone defending my right to have one. I see no reason why waiting periods are bad, or background checks, or any of that stuff cannot at least be discussed. There needs to be a middle ground or this will never EVER get resolved, but no one wants to come to the table. That is a big, big problem. And really, I think it's the wrong debate to have regarding this shooting anyway. This is really a mental health problem, and watch how that is completely not addressed as people leap to their favorite side on guns.

Shame.

[Napoleon54]

sure, in an ideal world. Yet most people were packing heat in the old west and Jesse James still managed to cut a rug. Again, you are solving the problem at the wrong end.

It's getting pretty obvious that this kid fell right through our mental health and legal system. There is the middle of the problem, and a much more effective way of preventing this sort of thing.

Based on his writings, it is apparent that this kid was abused in some way. That is the start of the problem. I dunno how to fix that, but if you could do that, then the problem goes away for good.

Arming everyone IS a solution, I suppose, but it strikes me that it's just at the wrong end of the problem. It's really the last resort, when all else fails.

I am not against guns at all, though I don't own one, I've shot them and my dad was a big gun man. I think we are fairly impractical on both sides of the gun issue - one side wants them to go away and that will never ever happen even if the second amendment magically vanishes overnight. That genie is out of the bottle, and armed. Good luck getting it back in.

I also don't believe that the right to bear arms means any and all arms. A sword is a weapon, I can't carry one and I don't see anyone defending my right to have one. I see no reason why waiting periods are bad, or background checks, or any of that stuff cannot at least be discussed. There needs to be a middle ground or this will never EVER get resolved, but no one wants to come to the table. That is a big, big problem. And really, I think it's the wrong debate to have regarding this shooting anyway. This is really a mental health problem, and watch how that is completely not addressed as people leap to their favorite side on guns.

Shame.
I don't think guns are the only solution by far, but is a simple and practical one that could've clearly made a difference. My apologies for getting defensive in response to your post, LPM. I've been hearing a lot of anti-gun talk in the news in response to this event, so it has been on my mind and got loose a little to easily. Again, sorry.

I 100% agree with your points on mental health. But how does society solve the mental health problem? This guy had been identified as having issues a few times already... supposedly he was examined for suicidal tendancies a few years ago and had a couple stalking complaints against him much more recently. Even the majority of those types don't go on a shooting rampage. And not everyone who goes on a shooting rampage exhibits any overt signs of instability beforehand.

I guess the obvious question to ask is what could be done within the mental health system to help prevent these things from happening in the future?

[Houdini]

Don't misunderstand me. Chances are, someone was. He wasn't the only kid in school with a gun. It's a fantasy that if we all just had guns, things like this wouldn't happen. It's the rare person that can handle themselves when the bullets are flying overhead. If the right person was packing heat, and could aim well enough under fire to hit the guy where he wasn't wearing a vest, sure. Cops have a hard time doing that. People miss more often then not under fire, according to various police studies.


He wasn't wearing any armor that we know of. A couple of body shots would have worked fine. As far as cops, it's actually disappointing that most are very poor marksmen. They don't practice much in general, except for yearly quals, etc., which aren't that tough. CCW holders, though, typically are enthusiasts, are used to stress under fire from competitions, practice a lot, and are disciplined as hell. In a way, I wish I were there and ready.

[gwilks98]

But instead, asshat walked around completely unchallenged and shooting people at will. The only limit to this rampage was the amount of ammo he had on him and the amount of killing he wanted to do before taking his own life. The trend of gun legislation in this country takes guns out of the hands of people who need them. As such, in most circumstances the only chance that innocent people have is the small likelihood that an off duty police officer or member of the military happens to be present. That's just plain wrong. It is immoral to disarm citizens and leave them defenseless in these situations. People have the right to have at their disposal the tools necessary for defending themselves. Plain and simple.

BS. Even the playing field with more guns, and they'll just resort to something else for the mass body count. Like driving a bomb laiden car into a crowded quad.
You think the death count is bad now? You don't think like a killer. Check out what a mass murderer can do without a gun in nowhere near 2 hours.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iraqbombs19apr19,0,6346987.story?coll=la-home-headlines


By the way, I'm not for or against gun control. I'm more with LP. I really do believe that the media running all these FUD reports gives sick kids the chance to get what they want: that if they aim high enough, they can get revenge, shock, attention, and infamy.

[LPMiller]

He wasn't wearing any armor that we know of. A couple of body shots would have worked fine.

Every article I've read said he was wearing a vest.


As far as cops, it's actually disappointing that most are very poor marksmen. They don't practice much in general, except for yearly quals, etc., which aren't that tough. CCW holders, though, typically are enthusiasts, are used to stress under fire from competitions, practice a lot, and are disciplined as hell. In a way, I wish I were there and ready.

Hey, I've been in competition too. I also handled the stress of my wife in the hospital. It's not the same as actively getting shot at. Shooting a gun at a target, even in competition, is not comparable to life and death.

And there is no CCW in Virgina. It's open carry. :D

I know full well there have been times when carrying a gun has helped people stay alive, I'm not saying otherwise. I also know full well there have been guns that have never left holsters too. For most people, it's a comfortable fantasy, but when it hits the fan, it's not the common person that can keep their head. Some can. Not all of them, and I don't think gun owners have a greater ability to handle fight/flight then anyone else.

[LPMiller]

BS. Even the playing field with more guns, and they'll just resort to something else for the mass body count. Like driving a bomb laiden car into a crowded quad.
You think the death count is bad now? You don't think like a killer. Check out what a mass murderer can do without a gun in nowhere near 2 hours.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iraqbombs19apr19,0,6346987.story?coll=la-home-headlines


By the way, I'm not for or against gun control. I'm more with LP. I really do believe that the media running all these FUD reports gives sick kids the chance to get what they want: that if they aim high enough, they can get revenge, shock, attention, and infamy.

I think that's an excellent point. It's not the guns. It's the killer. And he'll do what he needs to do, no guns required. take the bath school disaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster) for an example, where a gun was only used to set off a bomb. Maybe.

I mean, I dunno how to fill the holes, I'm not in mental health. But it seems to me we spend a lot of time juggling people who in retrospect, shouldn't be juggled. Then we try to plug up the holes on the tail end, with more guns or more 'security' that doesn't really do anything good, it just helps raise the bar.

We make 2 really bad assumptions in these things:

That we are ever safe anywhere (it can't happen here syndrome)
That we can solve it with a new law (creating safety by restricting freedoms, or better weapons)

Neither is true. You are never safe, because nutjobs have more time to think this stuff out. They only have to get it right once, and as they usually only have the one shot at it, they plan it like crazy. Normal people just can't plan that obsessively.

And better weapons or being better armed has only ever upped the stakes, or the body counts. It never actually increases the safety. I mean sure, you can point to the buddy or this story or that, but this kind of crazy? No, because they take it into account. It's why suicide bombs work against a trained army. At the best, all that will ever be is a temporary solution to a permanent problem. It's my same issue with things like the Patriot act - all we really do is make better terrorists in the end. It's sort of a catch 22, but if we knee jerked a lot less and actually tried to think through the problems, we might actually come up with better ways to handle these things. I mean, someone who is accused of stalking, who a bench judge declares dangerous, likely shouldn't be passing background checks.

I dunno. Seriously, I don't. But CCW or whatever is not any better an answer then gun control laws, not when it comes to the true nuts that have gone south. That's using stop leak when you have a cracked engine block. It only works for a little bit.

[Napoleon54]

Every article I've read said he was wearing a vest.

Sure, but what kind of vest? Not all vests are body armor. For example, the vest he's wearing in the photos is not body armor.

[Napoleon54]

I think that's an excellent point. It's not the guns. It's the killer. And he'll do what he needs to do, no guns required. take the bath school disaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster) for an example, where a gun was only used to set off a bomb. Maybe.

I mean, I dunno how to fill the holes, I'm not in mental health. But it seems to me we spend a lot of time juggling people who in retrospect, shouldn't be juggled. Then we try to plug up the holes on the tail end, with more guns or more 'security' that doesn't really do anything good, it just helps raise the bar.

We make 2 really bad assumptions in these things:

That we are ever safe anywhere (it can't happen here syndrome)
That we can solve it with a new law (creating safety by restricting freedoms, or better weapons)

Neither is true. You are never safe, because nutjobs have more time to think this stuff out. They only have to get it right once, and as they usually only have the one shot at it, they plan it like crazy. Normal people just can't plan that obsessively.

And better weapons or being better armed has only ever upped the stakes, or the body counts. It never actually increases the safety. I mean sure, you can point to the buddy or this story or that, but this kind of crazy? No, because they take it into account. It's why suicide bombs work against a trained army. At the best, all that will ever be is a temporary solution to a permanent problem. It's my same issue with things like the Patriot act - all we really do is make better terrorists in the end. It's sort of a catch 22, but if we knee jerked a lot less and actually tried to think through the problems, we might actually come up with better ways to handle these things. I mean, someone who is accused of stalking, who a bench judge declares dangerous, likely shouldn't be passing background checks.

I dunno. Seriously, I don't. But CCW or whatever is not any better an answer then gun control laws, not when it comes to the true nuts that have gone south. That's using stop leak when you have a cracked engine block. It only works for a little bit.

LPM, I agree with most of what you say, especially about never being truly safe. There's always going to be a bunch of nutjobs that wish to do others harm in one way or another. But choosing to be armed is the most effective thing an individual can do to protect oneself. There's nothing that you or I or anyone else can do as individuals as far as the mental helth of nutjobs. On the personal level, being armed is the best choice one has for protecting oneself and family and friends and classmates and anyone else who is a potential victim. The solution for preventing and mitigating events like this in the future could be a combination of several things: 1) use goverment and the medical/ psychiatric communities to provide mental health services for these people, and 2) allow citizens to protect themselves on the individual level.

[Houdini]

Sure, but what kind of vest? Not all vests are body armor. For example, the vest he's wearing in the photos is not body armor.

He was wearing a large vest to carry his ammunition. All descriptions so far have only mentioned that. Vest = bullet-resistant vest. I don't think he would have minded getting shot anyway. It was just his mindset at the time. If we know by his credit cards and receipts and stuff that he recently purchased two weapons, we'd also know if he bought armor, which is pretty expensive and somewhat hard to find in most gun stores.

[Houdini]

Shooting a gun at a target, even in competition, is not comparable to life and death.


Not quite, but it's the best way to train. Targets at various places, timed, with reloads, different postures required, behind barricades, etc. I'm not talking about simple plinking.


And there is no CCW in Virgina. It's open carry. :D

Nope. A lot of states, LA included, have open carry. That does NOT preclude CCW. VA has CCW laws - in fact, they were trying to make the permits lifetime instead of temporary (expirations.) I carry concealed for many reasons. One, if you're walking with people and are mugged, and you're open-carrying, you're the first target. You lose the vital element of surprise.



I know full well there have been times when carrying a gun has helped people stay alive, I'm not saying otherwise. I also know full well there have been guns that have never left holsters too. For most people, it's a comfortable fantasy, but when it hits the fan, it's not the common person that can keep their head. Some can. Not all of them, and I don't think gun owners have a greater ability to handle fight/flight then anyone else.

Serious ones, with proper training, DO. I do. I know that for damn sure. Absolutely. I can pull the trigger on someone threatening my life. Completely.

[ShawnLee]

sure, in an ideal world. Yet most people were packing heat in the old west and Jesse James still managed to cut a rug. Again, you are solving the problem at the wrong end.Jesse James and several others excepted, the Wild West was actually a fairly safe place. There's more violence in Western movies than history attests to.

[LPMiller]

Serious ones, with proper training, DO. I do. I know that for damn sure. Absolutely. I can pull the trigger on someone threatening my life. Completely.

That's great for you. But you are giving way too much credit to most people. Even your serious gun lovers. Who are also are in competition. Which really, is a subset of a subset. A guy with a legal gun is just not automatically the hero you think he is. He is a still a person that can freeze, miss, or make matters worse, just as much as he could make it better.

[Houdini]

That's great for you. But you are giving way too much credit to most people. Even your serious gun lovers. Who are also are in competition. Which really, is a subset of a subset. A guy with a legal gun is just not automatically the hero you think he is. He is a still a person that can freeze, miss, or make matters worse, just as much as he could make it better.

I don't believe I ever said any of those things. I've only spoken about those with training and discipline, which most of those who go through the hoops to get a CCW typically exhibit. I've been in such situations, and I hate it when people say that people freeze, miss, have their gun used against them, etc. The latter almost never happens. Sure, some people don't have it in them to pull the trigger. Nothing wrong with that, but they shouldn't be carrying, as guns should not be used for leverage. I can pull the trigger while pointed toward a bad guy. Multiple times if need be.