Barry Bonds charged with perjury, obstruction

[johnnymk]

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071116/SPORTS/711160467/1002/



SAN FRANCISCO — Barry Bonds, baseball's home run king, was indicted for perjury and obstruction of justice on Thursday and could go to prison instead of the Hall of Fame for telling a federal grand jury he did not knowingly use performance-enhancing drugs.

The indictment, culminating a four-year investigation into steroid use by elite athletes, charged Bonds with four counts of perjury and one of obstruction of justice. If convicted, he could be sentenced to a maximum of 30 years in prison.

Shortly after the indictment was handed up, Bonds' personal trainer, Greg Anderson, was ordered released after spending most of the past year in prison for refusing to testify against his longtime friend.

"During the criminal investigation, evidence was obtained including positive tests for the presence of anabolic steroids and other performance enhancing substances for Bonds and other athletes," the indictment said.

In August, when the 43-year-old Bonds passed Hank Aaron to become the career home run leader, he flatly rejected any suggestion that the milestone was stained by steroids.

"This record is not tainted at all. At all. Period," Bonds said.

But while San Franciscans cheered his every swing and fans elsewhere scorned every homer, a grand jury quietly worked behind closed doors to put the finishing touches on the long-rumored indictment.

Bonds is by far the highest-profile figure caught up in the steroids probe, which also ensnared track star Marion Jones. She pleaded guilty in October to lying to federal investigators about using steroids and faces up to six months in prison.

Bonds finished the year with 762 homers, seven more than Aaron, and is currently a free agent. In 2001, he set the season record with 73 home runs.

Late in the season, the San Francisco Giants told the seven-time National League MVP they didn't want him back next year.

Bonds could not immediately be reached for comment. One of his attorneys, John Burris, didn't know of the indictment before being alerted by The Associated Press and said he would call Bonds to notify him.

"I'm surprised," Burris said, "but there's been an effort to get Barry for a long time. I'm curious what evidence they have now they didn't have before."

Bonds' defense attorney, Mike Rains, declined comment because he hadn't seen a copy of the indictment.

"However, it goes without saying that we look forward to rebutting these unsupported charges in court," Rains said. "We will no doubt have more specific comments in the very near future once we have had the opportunity to actually see this indictment that took so long to generate."

Bonds is scheduled to appear in U.S. District Court in San Francisco on Dec. 7.

He has never been identified by Major League Baseball as testing positive for steroids.

The Giants, the players' union and even the White House called it a sad day for baseball.

"This is a very sad day. For many years, Barry Bonds was an important member of our team and is one of the most talented baseball players of his era. These are serious charges. Now that the judicial process has begun, we look forward to this matter being resolved in a court of law," the Giants said.

Union head Donald Fehr said he was "saddened" to learn of the indictment, but cautioned that "every defendant, including Barry Bonds, is entitled to the presumption of innocence unless and until such time as he is proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt."

In Washington, White House spokesman Tony Fratto said: "The president is very disappointed to hear this. As this case is now in the criminal justice system, we will refrain from any further specific comments about it. But clearly this is a sad day for baseball."

But while San Franciscans cheered his every swing and fans elsewhere scorned every homer, a grand jury quietly worked behind closed doors to put the finishing touches on the long-rumored indictment.

Bonds is by far the highest-profile figure caught up in the steroids probe, which also ensnared track star Marion Jones. She pleaded guilty in October to lying to federal investigators about using steroids and faces up to six months in prison.

Bonds finished the year with 762 homers, seven more than Aaron, and is currently a free agent. In 2001, he set the season record with 73 home runs.

Late in the season, the San Francisco Giants told the seven-time National League MVP they didn't want him back next year.

Bonds could not immediately be reached for comment. One of his attorneys, John Burris, didn't know of the indictment before being alerted by The Associated Press and said he would call Bonds to notify him.

"I'm surprised," Burris said, "but there's been an effort to get Barry for a long time. I'm curious what evidence they have now they didn't have before."

Bonds' defense attorney, Mike Rains, declined comment because he hadn't seen a copy of the indictment.

"However, it goes without saying that we look forward to rebutting these unsupported charges in court," Rains said. "We will no doubt have more specific comments in the very near future once we have had the opportunity to actually see this indictment that took so long to generate."

Bonds is scheduled to appear in U.S. District Court in San Francisco on Dec. 7.

He has never been identified by Major League Baseball as testing positive for steroids.

The Giants, the players' union and even the White House called it a sad day for baseball.

"This is a very sad day. For many years, Barry Bonds was an important member of our team and is one of the most talented baseball players of his era. These are serious charges. Now that the judicial process has begun, we look forward to this matter being resolved in a court of law," the Giants said.

Union head Donald Fehr said he was "saddened" to learn of the indictment, but cautioned that "every defendant, including Barry Bonds, is entitled to the presumption of innocence unless and until such time as he is proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt."

In Washington, White House spokesman Tony Fratto said: "The president is very disappointed to hear this. As this case is now in the criminal justice system, we will refrain from any further specific comments about it. But clearly this is a sad day for baseball."

[DarkFury]

Seriously these guys are REALLY after Barry.

At this point... is it really a grudge to "get him"? So much expended effort here... it's almost stupid. :2far:

[11th Reader]

They need someone to make an example of...he's the home run king who better to make an example of than him? I don't think they're going to stop until the get him. What I wonder though...why are they only focusing on baseball/track and field? Have they even looked into basketball or football? I bet there are lots of football players on steroids.

[TofuNinja]

This is old news.....they are only stating what many already thought was truth anyway.... He's been juiced.

[Maarchk]

Seriously these guys are REALLY after Barry.

At this point... is it really a grudge to "get him"? So much expended effort here... it's almost stupid. :2far:

I think Bond's is the most prominent display of cheating, I think his attitude towards everyone makes it easy to dislike him, and I think someone is looking for a promotion and putting such a big name away can only bring you big publicity.
The majority of people don't like him for one reason or another, and putting away an unliked person tends to make you more liked.

I don't mean to sound like a prick but don't you want this to happen? I would love to see Bonds, Mac, and every other juicer caught and told "you were cheating, your records are no good." I don't feel jail is necessary, unless they committed perjury which looks like its quite possible. But didn't Giambi admit to it and has moved on and is now a decent player again? Bonds was a decent player before he got on the juice and so it bugs me a lot that we will just accept that "because everyone did it, its ok".
I think this whole thing dishonors baseball right now, it harms the players who won't cheat, and it sucks for people like Hank Aaron and Babe Ruth, who I hope set honest records in their time.
I don't like Bonds cause he seems like a jerk. If he honestly set the record, thats amazing. But if he honestly set the record, I'm a freakin Martian! But I would not be happy to only see Bonds get nailed and that be the end of it. I think it should be justice for all, not just big names. So i hope he gets caught, but i hope that after, they catch others.

[zenbooty]

Seriously these guys are REALLY after Barry.

At this point... is it really a grudge to "get him"? So much expended effort here... it's almost stupid. :2far:
The govt. REALLY doesn't like being messed with, and if they feel someone has lied to or hidden things from them in these sworn-in hearings, they will hound you relentlessly and get you good. There is plenty of precedent for this sort of behavior on their part. It most definitely IS a grudge, but its not a personal one.

[DarkFury]

I think Bond's is the most prominent display of cheating, I think his attitude towards everyone makes it easy to dislike him, and I think someone is looking for a promotion and putting such a big name away can only bring you big publicity.
The majority of people don't like him for one reason or another, and putting away an unliked person tends to make you more liked.

I don't mean to sound like a prick but don't you want this to happen? I would love to see Bonds, Mac, and every other juicer caught and told "you were cheating, your records are no good." I don't feel jail is necessary, unless they committed perjury which looks like its quite possible. But didn't Giambi admit to it and has moved on and is now a decent player again? Bonds was a decent player before he got on the juice and so it bugs me a lot that we will just accept that "because everyone did it, its ok".
I think this whole thing dishonors baseball right now, it harms the players who won't cheat, and it sucks for people like Hank Aaron and Babe Ruth, who I hope set honest records in their time.
I don't like Bonds cause he seems like a jerk. If he honestly set the record, thats amazing. But if he honestly set the record, I'm a freakin Martian! But I would not be happy to only see Bonds get nailed and that be the end of it. I think it should be justice for all, not just big names. So i hope he gets caught, but i hope that after, they catch others.

Ok.. but this is what I don't get. When people did stuff that WASN'T illegal back then, but later became illegal, are they still guilty? More or less, you get many of these athletes caught up in these "scandals" and only the ones who stood out seem to be drawing the heat (unless the "good ol' boys who are doing the "chasing" likes those people and whatnot.)

I still didn't see a witchhunt going after Mark McGwire... especially when he was up there in the HR race with the rest of them. Why is that? Do you not think he was "juicin'"? But yet, he's been virtually ignored... is his profile "that low"? :shrug:

I know you guys don't like the "race card" but honestly, some of this really stinks in context of it. If Barry wasn't "BARRY"... with his strong, Black, "I don't give a frack" attitude... would they still be after him like this? In saying this, I'm not saying that they are doing it because he is Black, but honestly, adding that to the mix does seem to fuel the fire and desire to bring him down it seems (just in my own opinion). You can disagree if you want to... but that's just my own opinion on it.



The govt. REALLY doesn't like being messed with, and if they feel someone has lied to or hidden things from them in these sworn-in hearings, they will hound you relentlessly and get you good. There is plenty of precedent for this sort of behavior on their part. It most definitely IS a grudge, but its not a personal one.

So why do so many in the Govt. lie... but yet don't get hounded like this (unless you are on the OPPOSITE side of the group doing the hounding.)

People living in glass houses... should not throw stones. Honestly, this has become a nation of hypocrites and "holier than thou" people. :2far:

[11th Reader]

I still didn't see a witchhunt going after Mark McGwire... especially when he was up there in the HR race with the rest of them. Why is that? Do you not think he was "juicin'"? But yet, he's been virtually ignored... is his profile "that low"? :shrug:

I know you guys don't like the "race card" but honestly, some of this really stinks in context of it. If Barry wasn't "BARRY"... with his strong, Black, "I don't give a frack" attitude... would they still be after him like this? In saying this, I'm not saying that they are doing it because he is Black, but honestly, adding that to the mix does seem to fuel the fire and desire to bring him down it seems (just in my own opinion). You can disagree if you want to... but that's just my own opinion on it.


I believe McGuire has admitted to being on steroids during his chase...at least I thought I read something about that.

I have wondered if it was a race card, but I think it's more of the fact that Barry has been a jerk and it's easy to condemn someone that's disliked. I'm a Giants fan, and even I don't care for him. He's definitely tried to improve his image with the media since this all exploded, but I think after years of being an a$$ to the media, they're making a point to put him in the spotlight, and as a result the government is reacting to the media spotlight to show that they're doing something about it.

[DarkFury]

I believe McGuire has admitted to being on steroids during his chase...at least I thought I read something about that.

I have wondered if it was a race card, but I think it's more of the fact that Barry has been a jerk and it's easy to condemn someone that's disliked. I'm a Giants fan, and even I don't care for him. He's definitely tried to improve his image with the media since this all exploded, but I think after years of being an a$$ to the media, they're making a point to put him in the spotlight, and as a result the government is reacting to the media spotlight to show that they're doing something about it.
Baseball has had plenty of "jerks". Babe Ruth was a jerk, yet he was loved and feared by many at the time.

Current age baseball has had it's fair share of "jerky" players... some get a little attention (kinda like the John Rocker incident awhile back) but ultimately that stuff blows over and those folks continue on with their careers. However lately, various "media witchhunts" have gone after certain "high profile" sports stars.. and ironically, they seem to have some things in common. I'll leave it to you to decide what that is. :hmm:

[eSDee]

I believe McGuire has admitted to being on steroids during his chase...at least I thought I read something about that.


He pled the fifth.

[cheapie]

Baseball has had plenty of "jerks". Babe Ruth was a jerk, yet he was loved and feared by many at the time.

Current age baseball has had it's fair share of "jerky" players... some get a little attention (kinda like the John Rocker incident awhile back) but ultimately that stuff blows over and those folks continue on with their careers. However lately, various "media witchhunts" have gone after certain "high profile" sports stars.. and ironically, they seem to have some things in common. I'll leave it to you to decide what that is. :hmm:

hmmm...indeed. barry is not just a black athlete that people hate. he's a person that has treated the media poorly. he was chasing the single most hallowed recored in baseball. his body was one of the most seemingly obvious examples of what drugs can do for you. he attempted to tell the public that he thought the drugs he was taking was simply flaxseed oil. :rolleyes: and he was dumb enough to lie to the gvt under oath.

i dearly hope you're not including ron mexico in your list of high-profile athletes that have gotten undeserved attention. or any of the fools playing for cincinnati.


and ironically, they seem to have some things in common.

heck yeah they have something in common. they vastly outnumber their white counterparts in at least one, maybe two of the most popular sports in our country! :heh:

[DarkFury]

hmmm...indeed. barry is not just a black athlete that people hate. he's a person that has treated the media poorly. he was chasing the single most hallowed recored in baseball. his body was one of the most seemingly obvious examples of what drugs can do for you. he attempted to tell the public that he thought the drugs he was taking was simply flaxseed oil. :rolleyes: and he was dumb enough to lie to the gvt under oath.

i dearly hope you're not including ron mexico in your list of high-profile athletes that have gotten undeserved attention. or any of the fools playing for cincinnati.



heck yeah they have something in common. they vastly outnumber their white counterparts in at least one, maybe two of the most popular sports in our country! :heh:
Honestly Cheapie....it just seems like there are a group of folks out there who really are after certain players/high profile athletes/high profile celebrities.

You can't say that all the rest of the athletes are totally "clean" are they? But I guess those other guys won't garner the attention that these "big fish" will... not to mention being a TROPHY on the wall of those prosecutors.

Why is it that we just keep seeing the same types of faces all the time... are they REALLY the only ones who do this crap? Or are they the only ones being chased for it? :shrug:


Just like when they had dirt on Rush and O'Reilly.... yeah, the heat was on them for a few weeks, ultimately it died down and now nobody says NOTHING about them any more. What happend? Did the folks just STOP chasing them? Granted... they are not athletes, but they are "high profile" people who did bad stuff and it gets swept under the carpet and spun by the media to pretend like nothing happens. Yet with these athletes... the spin sure as hell don't work for them and they get persecuted and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Look at the cheating scandal in New England... a slap on the wrist and they keep on playing. Big whoop... It's almost like nothing even happened over there as well.

Just like in politics, there is alot of corruption in sports as well... and depending who you are determines how bad the antagonists are gonna attack you I suppose.

But no... there is no "double standard". :rolleyes:

[eSDee]

heck yeah they have something in common. they vastly outnumber their white counterparts in at least one, maybe two of the most popular sports in our country! :heh:

http://sdlocals.com/images/GA/awwjeez.jpg

[Maarchk]

Baseball has had plenty of "jerks". Babe Ruth was a jerk, yet he was loved and feared by many at the time.

Current age baseball has had it's fair share of "jerky" players... some get a little attention (kinda like the John Rocker incident awhile back) but ultimately that stuff blows over and those folks continue on with their careers. However lately, various "media witchhunts" have gone after certain "high profile" sports stars.. and ironically, they seem to have some things in common. I'll leave it to you to decide what that is. :hmm:

I hear stories about Babe Ruth and it sounded like he was a jerk. I don't know, i wasn't there.
but bonds has never had a positive story about him dealing with people that i have heard of. Now lets grab another loud black athlete. T.O. Not on my friends list cause he's never played for one of my teams, and he seems very loud and flamboyant and at times obnoxious, BUT when he's having a good day or feeling good, he plays with the media. Friendly smack talks and seems like a decent funny guy. When he's ticked, he doesn't hide it and sometimes lashes out. I don't have any issue with that because he's a very high energy high emotion player, but I have heard and seen both sides of the coin with him.
With Bonds, i honestly feel he's 100% for him self and a jerk.
I don't think you are wrong in thinking they could be more focused on black athletes, because thats the agenda, but He is also the most prominent active person in the game of baseball who the majority of people would easily believe was cheating.
I personally think they should go after McGuire harder, and conseco after he wrote his book. But i'm just a fan, and actually i'm not really a fan of any of them anymore.
hmm, but how about this? Why did it seem like they never really went after Sammy Sosa? (I get the feeling you might tell me he's not black, but he was the next most prominent baseball homer hitter i can think of. Maybe Griffey, but i dont think he cheater and he's been injured a lot so is not as prominent.)

[DarkFury]

hmm, but how about this? Why did it seem like they never really went after Sammy Sosa? (I get the feeling you might tell me he's not black, but he was the next most prominent baseball homer hitter i can think of. Maybe Griffey, but i dont think he cheater and he's been injured a lot so is not as prominent.)
Sammy is still dealing with the "corked bat" incident. His rep and endorsements were severely tarnished after that. More or less, maybe that was "mission accomplished" as far as he was concerned for those "witchhunters".

As far as Ken Griffey goes... they probably can't dig up enough dirt on him ... plus his injuries took him out of the running of the lead dogs anyways. In these "witchhunts", they really are only after BIG game... and Griffey is pretty much a "small fry" in comparison plus he never stirred up any trouble. He's not even on their radar from as far as I can tell.

[Maarchk]

Makes sense. Is it possible there is no other big dogs? I mean, since the balco case, do you think there are any other active players they should have pursued?

[zenbooty]

Sammy is still dealing with the "corked bat" incident. His rep and endorsements were severely tarnished after that. More or less, maybe that was "mission accomplished" as far as he was concerned for those "witchhunters".

As far as Ken Griffey goes... they probably can't dig up enough dirt on him ... plus his injuries took him out of the running of the lead dogs anyways. In these "witchhunts", they really are only after BIG game... and Griffey is pretty much a "small fry" in comparison plus he never stirred up any trouble. He's not even on their radar from as far as I can tell.
Let's be fair, here. John Rocker's career was ruined. Conseco, for all his accomplishments, is regarded as a laughing stock today. They put Giambi through the ringer pretty good for awhile there, too. And since Rose refused to come clean on gambling, he's been disqualified from the game and the Hall of Fame.

[DarkFury]

Let's be fair, here. John Rocker's career was ruined. Conseco, for all his accomplishments, is regarded as a laughing stock today. They put Giambi through the ringer pretty good for awhile there, too. And since Rose refused to come clean on gambling, he's been disqualified from the game and the Hall of Fame.
Wasn't Rocker still allowed to play after that though? Yeah... a few fans hounded him, but nothing like the folks going after Barry. I honestly stop watching or caring about keeping track of Rocker after he left Atlanta.

Conseco... well... after the "Surreal Life"... what do you expect. Jason Giambi... got nowhere near this amount of attention, and is still playing.... :shrug: John Rocker...still continued to play yet the focus turned off of him. He basically got cut because he SUCKED at playing... he wasn't "removed" from baseball.

And Pete Rose... well, yeah they've persecuted Charlie Hustle. Personally, I'd let him back in, but I guess he pissed off the wrong folks. Of all the examples above, his is probably the most legitimate comparison of treatment.

[VTGreg]

Wasn't Rocker still allowed to play after that though? Yeah... a few fans hounded him, but nothing like the folks going after Barry. I honestly stop watching or caring about keeping track of Rocker after he left Atlanta.

Conseco... well... after the "Surreal Life"... what do you expect. Jason Giambi... got nowhere near this amount of attention, and is still playing.... :shrug: John Rocker...still continued to play yet the focus turned off of him. He basically got cut because he SUCKED at playing... he wasn't "removed" from baseball.

And Pete Rose... well, yeah they've persecuted Charlie Hustle. Personally, I'd let him back in, but I guess he pissed off the wrong folks. Of all the examples above, his is probably the most legitimate comparison of treatment.

For starters, using steriods was illegal before, they just didn't test for it.

I'm sure there is an element of race involved in all of this but in most cases these guys were doing dumb stuff. Bonds is getting the most attention because he was going after the home run record. Giambi did get the same type of attention when he admitted to using steriods and the grand jury testimony was leaked. The big difference with Giambi was 1) he admitted to using them and 2) he wasn't going after one of the biggest records in sports. It also helped that he had an injury plagued season and was essentially out of baseball for that year.

McGuire got raked through the coals when he appeared before Congress and essentially plead the 5th. He has remained relatively unscathed because he has kept and incredibly low profile since retiring. I can guarantee you that he will be scrutinized again when it comes time to vote for the Hall of Fame.

Sosa wasn't nearly as hurt by the corked bat incident as you may think. The Northside still loved him until he became more and more self-absorbed. Sammy lost favor with Cubs fans because of his attitude, not because he was caught using a corked bat.

Bonds has been allowed to play despite there being "evidence" that he used steriods. Personally, I think the whole thing has been a complete circus. We will never know who used what and when and, as a result, I don't think you can add any asterisk or caveat to any record. Other hall of famers have been caught doctoring balls and cheating in other ways throughout the history of sports. History and public opinion will decide how the record is treated but I doubt baseball will strike any records or add any asterisks. Bonds' one mistake in all of this was being an idiot and allegedly lying under oath. Other that that, in the context of what has happened during this age of baseball, Bonds has not done anything that should caused him to be singled out.

Also, to add a counter argument to race being a deciding factor, Shawn Merriman was found to be taking steriods and served a 4 game suspension but I believe he still made the pro bowl and was in the discussion for defensive rookie of the year.

Sorry, that was pretty long.

[cheapie]

Wasn't Rocker still allowed to play after that though? Yeah... a few fans hounded him, but nothing like the folks going after Barry. I honestly stop watching or caring about keeping track of Rocker after he left Atlanta.

Conseco... well... after the "Surreal Life"... what do you expect. Jason Giambi... got nowhere near this amount of attention, and is still playing.... :shrug: John Rocker...still continued to play yet the focus turned off of him. He basically got cut because he SUCKED at playing... he wasn't "removed" from baseball.

And Pete Rose... well, yeah they've persecuted Charlie Hustle. Personally, I'd let him back in, but I guess he pissed off the wrong folks. Of all the examples above, his is probably the most legitimate comparison of treatment.


right. but none of those guys lied to a FEDERAL grand jury and broke the single biggest record in sports.

i understand your frustration. many of the biggest black stars today are in trouble or have gotten an unwarranted amount of attn. sometimes it's because they're just idiots (imho) like vick, bonds, the bengals team, etc. but i also think it's because people always want to bring down the guy on top, whether he's black or white. and many of the top spots in sports are domindated by black guys.

[DarkFury]

Like I said before... it's just my own personal opinion that many of these "witchhunts" do have a stink of racism in there. :shrug: :2far:



Big, loudmouthed Black man making big dollars and livin' it up.... they gotta GO DOWN!!! Hard...!!!

Spare no expense... but make sure they go down.


- The Man



Honestly, even though Hank Aaron got death threats and whatnot in his day, I bet he's glad that stuff like what's going on now wasn't done in those days. If you dig deep enough, you'll probably find SOMETHING somewhere.

But honestly, if I were in their position, I'd probably tone down the braggadocio a bit just to NOT give the critics anything more to feed on (I do fault those guys for that... as they make themselves even bigger targets).

[cheapie]

i guess i can't really understand your point without knowing who else you might be talking about.

i'm trying to think of some other recent black athletes that have gotten the same type of scrutiny as bonds. vick? i would hope you don't think the attention paid to him is unwarranted. OJ? sheesh.

i will say that i agree that if an athlete is less "urban" or "hipop" they won't get as much crap as a white guy would for doing the same thing.

and esdee, my point was that since there are a lot more black superstars in the nba and nfl, perhaps the reason they are the targets of witch hunts more often is because there are more of them. :shrug: perhaps not.

i guess the accusation that the angst towards bonds is racially-motivated bothers me so much that when the same person levels that charge regarding other high-profile athletes, i'm less willing to consider that it might be the case.

i feel that it is so freakin' obvious that bonds took drugs, lied to a grand jury about it, benefited from doing so, and broke the most hallowed record in baseball with the help of his PEDs that i honestly don't understand how a person could say the reason people are on his back is because of race.

that said...i'm sure there are tools out there that hate him because of his race. but i think they are a small minority.

[DarkFury]

i guess i can't really understand your point without knowing who else you might be talking about.

i'm trying to think of some other recent black athletes that have gotten the same type of scrutiny as bonds. vick? i would hope you don't think the attention paid to him is unwarranted. OJ? sheesh.
Honestly, the attention given to Vick went way over the top in my own opinion (in general, the media today is way over the top so I guess some folks look at that is "normal" these days.) Yes, what he did was bad... but the media sure ran with it and made it a "nuclear" situation when conventional weapons would have worked well enough. O.J.... well we know that his name sticks in the craw of many White Americans (of course many Black Americans get a good laugh thinkin' about the previous O.J. situation) But now, they got something to stick on him so lots of those folks are really happy and gloating right about now. But we digress... this thread is not about those folks.

All I'm saying is, I'm noticing a trend here. I expect you to see it differently (based on previous discussions), therefore I continue to state "it's MY opinion". You can disagree at at your discretion... but that doesn't change my opinion at this point.



i guess the accusation that the angst towards bonds is racially-motivated bothers me so much that when the same person levels that charge regarding other high-profile athletes, i'm less willing to consider that it might be the case.

i feel that it is so freakin' obvious that bonds took drugs, lied to a grand jury about it, benefited from doing so, and broke the most hallowed record in baseball with the help of his PEDs that i honestly don't understand how a person could say the reason people are on his back is because of race.

that said...i'm sure there are tools out there that hate him because of his race. but i think they are a small minority.

Question... how many Black folks do you know that really have a major problem with the way that Barry Bonds acts? Most of the ones I know that I ask basically don't see the situation the way that the media keeps blowing it up. Yeah... he's arrogant, but hey... after years of pefecting what he does, he backs it up with performance. So now, they attack the performance and give all the credit to the steroids to discredit him. Who are these people that keep applying this pressure? Do they have a face? If so, what color is that face? :shrug:

I know that some folks want to ignore the fact that some (or most) of this could be racially motivated. Those same folks generally think that we actually live in a "fair and balanced" society as well. :rolleyes: All in all... it's just a big joke (that's nowhere near being funny.) :sad: :2far:

[cheapie]

i'm not sure i understand your point about bonds and the face and the pressure. i'll just say that as a cycling fan i know more than most about the effects of doping and i think it's ridiculous that people can claim that doping didn't have any affect on the record.

i will absolutely say that sometimes the exposure has been racially motivated. but when two of the biggest examples of supposed racial witch hunting has been indicted by the federal gvt for perjury, and another one that's in prison for the dog fighting stuff....it sure makes me wonder if there's really any substance to the complaint.

i think perhaps sometimes when black athlete strikes a nerve in the media, it's more the urban or hip-hop aspect of him than his race. yes, sometimes those are inextricably linked. but i think this distrust, misunderstanding, etc. is sometimes misread by others as being a racist reaction, rather than a cultural one.

jmho of course.

[DarkFury]

Cheapie.. i'm used to you not understanding my points.

Hence... we both hold on to our own opinions.

[TofuNinja]

Why does this have to be about race? If someone cheated they cheated and should be punished. If it came out that Lance Armstrong doped before his races or used roids too he should be punished because he cheated, not because he's white.... same with Bonds. I could give a crap about the color of his skin, he cheated.... he needs to be punished.

I honestly haven't read enough of this thread, but I am sure DF is for the punishment (he cheated), but thinks it's a racial thing to get him (Grand Jury not leaving him alone), which are two different things.

[DarkFury]

Why does this have to be about race?

Just an "odd coincidence" I suppose... :hmm: :shrug:

[des1969]

What bugs me is they waited until AFTER he broke the record. Sounds fishy to me

[DarkFury]

Hmmm...

In light of the "Mitchell Report"... I wonder if there will be a bunch of heat put on those other players identified as steroid users now.

I saw that it was mentioned that Roger Clemens should be sweating now. I wonder if they will dog him like Barry. I guess we will see.

[cheapie]

sure they will. if he starts chasing the most important record in all of sports. and lies to a grand jury. and treats his teammates, fans, and the media like crap.

:rolleyes:

[DarkFury]

sure they will. if he starts chasing the most important record in all of sports. and lies to a grand jury. and treats his teammates, fans, and the media like crap.

:rolleyes:

Well I'd guess that they'd decline YOU as a potential juror in light of your obvious bias. :heh:

Oh well.. some will always hate. :shrug:



BTW... are you saying that if Barry had not been "his own person" to teammates and fans that they wouldn't have hounded him? :rolleyes: Sounds like some folks have more "sour grapes" than anything specifically against HIM versus other people.

Also... since I'm not sure the outcome, if/when Barry somehow lied to the jury, then why are they still trying this case? Do they still not have enough proof or something? Hell... Vick has been charged and sentenced already and is already gone... so why is Bonds still playing? (Just wondering... since you keep saying he lied yet I haven't seen any prosecution... only persecution. :hmm: )

[eSDee]

Hmmm...

In light of the "Mitchell Report"... I wonder if there will be a bunch of heat put on those other players identified as steroid users now.

I saw that it was mentioned that Roger Clemens should be sweating now. I wonder if they will dog him like Barry. I guess we will see.

I think he deserves as much scrutiny as Barry Bonds does, as both are guilty of the exact same thing. We'll see though if it happens. If it doesn't, then it will be confirmed that there is a bias against Barry Bonds.

[cheapie]

bias? hate? that pisses me off. why can't i simply dislike a guy because i think he's tarnished the greatest record in sports through his obvious drug use without being labeled a hater or borderline racist?

yes. if he has acknowledged and stopped his drug use and not been a jackass then people wouldn't have hounded him as much. but then he wouldn't have committed perjury and been chasing the home run record would he?

[cheapie]

I think he deserves as much scrutiny as Barry Bonds does, as both are guilty of the exact same thing. We'll see though if it happens. If it doesn't, then it will be confirmed that there is a bias against Barry Bonds.


confirmed bias? as in racial bias? that's bs. one was chasing THE home run record, lying to the grand jury, and antagonizing fans, teammates, etc. whilst another was having great seasons.

yeah. i think roger is dirty. but don't tell me their accomplishments are equal and they should receive the same coverage and angst directed at them.

[DarkFury]

Cheapie... we already know that you are gonna feel that way.

Unfortunately, it seems like mainstream media and alot of other folks feel the same. Maybe Barry should have plead the 5th like McGwire... they sure as hell don't hound him every day. :rolleyes: He did hit 70 HRs to break the previous record too ya know... (just someone else hit 3 more to beat him... hmm....)

And yes... it does look somewhat like bias to me. Just my opinion on that.

[zenbooty]

I dunno, I think Barry has made a lot of enemies throughout his career, his race notwithstanding. The press hated him. His teammates hated him. He has a history throughout his life, high school coaches and teammates, to college, to scouts, etc. etc. of turning everybody off with his primadonna attitude. I think less that he was targeted by baseball or "Da Man" then he pissed off the wrong folks in his day to day career life and they started talking to the guys who wrote that book that kicked everything off. That book pretty much did him in, laying it out there and basically making him the obvious scapegoat candidate from then on. It was more a matter of timing and circumstance than race that explains why he got more attention than McGuire. McGuire was retired by the time the steroid scandal broke, so nobody cared as much. And while he was always under suspicion he was never exposed to the degree Bonds was in that book.

[DarkFury]

Alrighty...

Well I guess time still will tell as to what will happen. But it still seems to me that there are some "salty" folks out there that would love nothing better than to do him in for whatever their reasons are. Steroids is just the "vehicle" it seems... lots of folks took the ride obviously, but hey... let's get that guy because we hate him the most. YEAH!!!!! (insert unruly mob here...)

Scratch one more, loud obnoxious (umm... Black) guy off your list. CHECK! :heh:

BTW... do you think that if he had retired BEFORE setting the record, they would have left him alone?

[zenbooty]

BTW... do you think that if he had retired BEFORE setting the record, they would have left him alone?If he had retired before being asked to testify to Congress, he probably would not ever have been bothered.

[VTGreg]

FYI, all the ESPN talking heads that I've heard since the Mitchell report was released have said Clemens will face an uphill battle getting into the hall of fame. Sounds like the backlash, at least from a baseball perspective, will be similar to what Bonds is facing.

Also, as a few others have noted, McGuire isn't facing the same type of scrutiny because he is retired and wasn't in the process of breaking 755. He has felt a significant backlash in baseball terms as he wasn't a first ballot half of famer. Before the steriod scandal broke he was a no-brain first ballot half of famer.

[DarkFury]

FYI, all the ESPN talking heads that I've heard since the Mitchell report was released have said Clemens will face an uphill battle getting into the hall of fame. Sounds like the backlash, at least from a baseball perspective, will be similar to what Bonds is facing.

Also, as a few others have noted, McGuire isn't facing the same type of scrutiny because he is retired and wasn't in the process of breaking 755. He has felt a significant backlash in baseball terms as he wasn't a first ballot half of famer. Before the steriod scandal broke he was a no-brain first ballot half of famer.
We'll see...

Will the media follow him and his family around trying to get in on "the scoop" about his involvement? Will they intrude on his personal life? Will they make his life a living hell?

Sure, he might not make the Hall now... but at least he'll probably be able to go home and not worry about the media being on his doorstep. (Of course, this might change... but I'll just wait to see about that.)

[cheapie]

because you seemingly always want to see bias, you will always see it. you're refusal to acknowledge the following is frustrating:

bonds was pursing the most hallowed record in american sports. clemens wasn't.

bonds was a terrible teammate and treated the media and fans like crap, clemens didn't

bonds was part of a federal investigation, clemens wasn't

bonds lied to a grand jury, clemens didn't

bonds tried to tell the public he thought he was taking flaxseed oil instead of roids, to my knowledge clemens hasn't said anything so ridiculous.

etc. etc.

look, i'm no fan of clemens. and i think he was certainly guilty. but these allegations are coming out at the end of his career, not during the middle of an epic record chase.


i won't say that there's no racist idiots who hate bonds because he's black. but you're being ridiculous if you really think the two of them would have received equal attention if they were the same color.

[DarkFury]

Cheapie...

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. :D

You account for the "known unknowns"... however what you don't account for is the "unknown unknowns". :D

[Napoleon54]

If Bonds is being hounded because he's black, then why don't I remember any similar harassment of Sousa?

There are PLENTY of black athletes who we look up to and admire. Bonds is being singled out 'cause he's a dick.

[DarkFury]

If Bonds is being hounded because he's black, then why don't I remember any similar harassment of Sousa?

There are PLENTY of black athletes who we look up to and admire. Bonds is being singled out 'cause he's a dick.
Ummm do you mean Sammy Sosa?

Oh yeah... "Mr Corked Bat"... yeah they hounded the hell outta him, and he kept saying... "it was an accident", yet folks still was like... "YOU LIAR! YOU UNFAIR! YOU SHOULD DIE AND YOU ARE A DISGRACE TO BASEBALL..."

He was a pretty popular guy before... and now, we never hear anything else about him. Go figure. :shrug:

[cheapie]

Ummm do you mean Sammy Sosa?

Oh yeah... "Mr Corked Bat"... yeah they hounded the hell outta him, and he kept saying... "it was an accident", yet folks still was like... "YOU LIAR! YOU UNFAIR! YOU SHOULD DIE AND YOU ARE A DISGRACE TO BASEBALL..."

He was a pretty popular guy before... and now, we never hear anything else about him. Go figure. :shrug:


naw. he admitted it and the fans quieted down about that. they started to get on his case as his game dropped. remember how everyone doubted that he really injured his back when he sneezed?

i used to be a pretty big cubs fan and he was loved until his game took a crap. then he went to b'more and sucked there as well. came back to the rangers and actually had a pretty decent year.

[DarkFury]

naw. he admitted it and the fans quieted down about that. they started to get on his case as his game dropped. remember how everyone doubted that he really injured his back when he sneezed?

i used to be a pretty big cubs fan and he was loved until his game took a crap. then he went to b'more and sucked there as well. came back to the rangers and actually had a pretty decent year.
He admitted to what? Last I heard, he said it was "accidental" that his "practice bat" got mixed into his regular game bats.

When did he admit that he was trying to use a corked bat on purpose? I must've missed that admission/interview/statement. :shrug:

[cheapie]

hmmm...i was under the impression he did. you could be right. i'll google it when i've got time.

[VTGreg]

Sosa didn't admit that he intentionally corked his game bat. He used the excuse that it was a practice bat. However, admissions aside, Cheapie is dead on with the fan's reaction to Sosa. He took some heat initially on the North Side but was still a fan favorite until his play and, more importantly, his effort started heading down hill. He lost favor with the fans because he was deemed a selfish player in his last days with the Cubs.

Two examples that were harped on by fans were:

1) His homerun hop instead of taking an easy double that cost the Cubs a game.

2) Him packing up his locker and leaving before the end of the game on the last day of the season (what would end up being his last game as a Cub).

As far as Clemens and the scrutiny he will face is concerned, he will likely retire and quickly remove himself from the public eye.

[cheapie]

oops

[Napoleon54]

Ummm do you mean Sammy Sosa?

Yeah, him. :heh:

Regardless, here's some background.


Unsplendid splinter
Cubs rally past Rays after Sosa's ignominious ejection

CHICAGO (AP) -- Once Sammy Sosa was caught using a corked bat, there was one big question: Was he cheating when he hit any of those 505 home runs?

The Chicago Cubs' star slugger, 17th on the career home-run list, was ejected in the first inning of Tuesday night's 3-2 win over the Tampa Bay Devil Rays after umpires found cork in his shattered bat.

Sosa said it was all an honest mistake.

"I use that bat for batting practice," he said. "It's something that I take the blame for. It's a mistake, I know that. I feel sorry. I just apologize to everybody that are embarrassed."

Sosa, who gained national prominence in 1998 during his home-run battle with Mark McGwire, apologized to fans, his teammates and the commissioner of baseball. Sosa's other bats were confiscated by security personnel and turned over to major league baseball.

"Deep down in my heart, I truly believe Sammy didn't know that was in there," Cubs manager Dusty Baker said. "But I just hope that this event, whatever it was, doesn't tarnish his career or take away all that Sammy Sosa's done. For baseball and for Chicago."

The Cubs had runners at second and third when Sosa broke his bat with a grounder to second base that at first appeared to drive in a run.

Crew chief Tim McClelland gathered with the other three umpires to examine the handle area of the bat. Cubs manager Dusty Baker came out and the umpires showed what was left of the bat to him.

Mark Grudzielanek was sent back to third base, the run was wiped off the board and Sosa was ejected as he stood in the dugout.

Sosa said he hoped fans will believe he didn't intend to use a corked bat.

"That's why I'm here right now, to explain that it was a mistake," he said. "I know that right now, anybody or somebody probably want to think whatever comes to their mind, but you know, I just picked the wrong bat.

"I don't really need to use that. I break so many bats in my life. But when you make a mistake like that, you got to stood up and be there for it. ... It's a mistake, and I take the blame for it."

Sosa said he had the corked bat "for batting practice -- just to put on a show for the fans ... I like to make people happy and I do that in batting practice."

Some fans didn't like what they saw.

"I think it's a disgrace, a shame. Everything that he's done now is called into question," said Craig Carr, a 35-year-old spectator from Newton.

Cork inside a wooden bat is thought to help players hit the ball farther and is against baseball rules. Several players have been caught using altered bats in the past, including Albert Belle, Wilton Guerrero, Chris Sabo, Billy Hatcher and Graig Nettles. All were suspended.

"You don't want to see that happen to a great player like Sammy," Tampa Bay manager Lou Piniella said. "I care about the great players in this game, and Sammy certainly is in that category."

Umpires initially took part of the corked bat into the Cubs dugout and down the runway toward their clubhouse before security came and took it away about an inning later, McClelland said.

McClelland said he wasn't sure what happened to the other part of the bat that was split away and landed between third and shortstop. But he said a batboy may have picked it up and took it to the dugout, and it may have been tossed into the stands.

McClelland also was the umpire who took away a home run from Kansas City's George Brett in 1983 because of excessive pine tar, a decision later reversed by AL president Lee MacPhail.

McClelland said the cork was clearly visible.

"I turned it over and there was a small probably half-dollar size piece of cork in the bat right about halfway down the barrel head, I guess," he said. "It was notched in there. I felt it, and it obviously was cork, so I called the crew together and it was reminiscent of what happened about 20 years ago with me."

Sosa's bat immediately became a big topic around the major leagues.

"Everyone who hits a home run now, they're going to think you're using a corked bat," said Atlanta's Andruw Jones, who hit a game-winning, two-run homer against Texas.

"Unfortunately, it's a dirty mark, when you consider all he's accomplished," Yankees manager Joe Torre said. "It's really unfortunate for the game. Everybody's scratching their heads right now. ... It's embarrassing. He's too good of a player. It's too bad."

Sosa just came off the disabled last Friday after having the nail taken off his big right toe and missing 17 games.

Entering Tuesday, he was just 2-for-15 in his three games since coming off the DL, including one five-strikeout game in which he also had the game-winning single against Houston.

"I just hope it doesn't taint what he's done," Seattle second baseman Bret Boone said. "Corked, not corked, he's got as much power as anyone in baseball. He's probably got as much power, outside Mark McGwire, as anyone in history."

Sosa, a six-time All-Star who reached 500 career homers earlier this season, hasn't homered since May 1 and his power numbers have dropped drastically since he was beaned April 20 by the Pirates' Salomon Torres.

He has just six homers this season and 24 RBIs, while batting .285.

Sosa has the most 60-homer seasons in major league history, hitting 66 in 1998, 63 in 1999 and 64 in 2001.

Chicago's then Comiskey Park was the site of one of baseball's biggest corked bat capers in July 1994 when the bat of Belle, then with Cleveland, was confiscated.

Umpires took it to their dressing room before an Indians teammate crawled across the ceiling and switched Belle's confiscated bat with one belonging to a teammate.

Once the caper was discovered, the original bat was finally examined and Belle was suspended for 10 games, a penalty that was reduced to seven games.

Guerrero, then with the Los Angeles Dodgers, was suspended for eight games in 1997 for using cork in his bat. Sabo, a part-time third baseman with Cincinnati, was suspended for seven games and fined $25,000 for using a corked bat against Houston in 1996.

Hatcher was suspended for 10 days in 1987 after using a corked bat for Houston. It was the first such ejection since Nettles, then with the New York Yankees, was tossed in 1974 after six superballs came out of his bat during a game against Detroit.

Chicago won Tuesday's game in the ninth when Al Levine (2-2) threw a wild pitch that allowed Troy O'Leary, who had replaced Sosa, to score from third.

Link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2003/06/03/sosa_ejected_ap/)

At the risk of fanning the flames of a tangent, I admire him for taking responsibility for the situation... unless, of course, he's lying and was intentionally using the corked bat. I wonder how often anyone closely looked at bats he'd broke previously.

Either way, you can't blame people for calling Sosa's integrity into question when he was unequivocably caught with a corked bat. Black or not, doesn't matter. No doubt McGuire would've gotten the same treatment. Just like he and Clemens are suspected of 'roid use. They're not being ignored on that point because they're white, now, are they? Didn't think so. :shrug:

[DarkFury]

Black or not, doesn't matter. No doubt McGuire would've gotten the same treatment. Just like he and Clemens are suspected of 'roid use. They're not being ignored on that point because they're white, now, are they? Didn't think so. :shrug:
Do we really know this? We don't really know about the different treatment... but we do know that we don't hear as much about some people as we do others... and most of those we do seem to continually hear about just seems happen to be Black people (as of late).

Honestly, I didn't see McGwire get anywhere near the same treatment... but hey, that's just what I saw, you may see it differently. I bet Clemens will fade away as well... I haven't seen his name in the news more or less since that report came out... so it seems like nobody is really diggin' up more dirt on him as we speak. :shrug: (Maybe it's because some folks really don't care either way about him or the others that were implicated... since Baseball in general is showing itself as a "big sham" right about now.) :2far:

Pretty much, everyone has their own opinion about the MOTIVE of the media who picks who they hound and gang up on.

I'll continue to agree to disagree on this until I firmly see these "coincidences" change. Just my own opinion on that.

[DarkFury]

oops
Yup... told ya.

[cheapie]

Yup... told ya.

but you also said
nd he kept saying... "it was an accident", yet folks still was like... "YOU LIAR! YOU UNFAIR! YOU SHOULD DIE AND YOU ARE A DISGRACE TO BASEBALL..."

He was a pretty popular guy before... and now, we never hear anything else about him. Go figure.

which didn't happen. :wavey2:

[VTGreg]

Do we really know this? We don't really know about the different treatment... but we do know that we don't hear as much about some people as we do others... and most of those we do seem to continually hear about just seems happen to be Black people (as of late).

Honestly, I didn't see McGwire get anywhere near the same treatment... but hey, that's just what I saw, you may see it differently. I bet Clemens will fade away as well... I haven't seen his name in the news more or less since that report came out... so it seems like nobody is really diggin' up more dirt on him as we speak. :shrug: (Maybe it's because some folks really don't care either way about him or the others that were implicated... since Baseball in general is showing itself as a "big sham" right about now.) :2far:

Pretty much, everyone has their own opinion about the MOTIVE of the media who picks who they hound and gang up on.

I'll continue to agree to disagree on this until I firmly see these "coincidences" change. Just my own opinion on that.

I think we all agree that everyone has different motives for their various reactions to the individuals that have been caught cheating. Instead of saying, we haven't seen any white folks that have received the same treatment as Barry, let's look at the other side. There have been some other high-profile black baseball players that were implicated in the Mitchell report and the BALCO hearings. One example that immediately comes to mind is Gary Sheffield who has acknowledged using steriods. There hasn't been anywhere near the backlash against him as there has against Bonds. Heck, Sheffield has received more scrutiny for some comments he has made over the past year or two than his steriod use and he is still an active player.

Using Sheffield as an example isn't supposed to be a straw-man argument or proof that race doesn't play into the treatment Bonds has received. I'm just trying to point out the fact that Bonds has endured the scrutiny based on his circumstances and to put much of that on race is, in my opinion, off base. I think it has much more to do with his pursuit of Aaron's record than anything else because Sheffield is, for the most part, a jerk to the media and hasn't endured the same type of treatment.

[DarkFury]

but you also said

which didn't happen. :wavey2:
What you mean it didn't happen... People did say those things during the incident.

[cheapie]

What you mean it didn't happen... People did say those things during the incident.


:heh: well sure. i'm sure someone said that. but that incident wasn't the reason he was run out of town at all. he seemed to stop playing hard and couldn't be counted on to do anything.

[DarkFury]

I think we all agree that everyone has different motives for their various reactions to the individuals that have been caught cheating. Instead of saying, we haven't seen any white folks that have received the same treatment as Barry, let's look at the other side. There have been some other high-profile black baseball players that were implicated in the Mitchell report and the BALCO hearings. One example that immediately comes to mind is Gary Sheffield who has acknowledged using steriods. There hasn't been anywhere near the backlash against him as there has against Bonds. Heck, Sheffield has received more scrutiny for some comments he has made over the past year or two than his steriod use and he is still an active player.

Using Sheffield as an example isn't supposed to be a straw-man argument or proof that race doesn't play into the treatment Bonds has received. I'm just trying to point out the fact that Bonds has endured the scrutiny based on his circumstances and to put much of that on race is, in my opinion, off base. I think it has much more to do with his pursuit of Aaron's record than anything else because Sheffield is, for the most part, a jerk to the media and hasn't endured the same type of treatment.
So are you saying that the record chase drew more attention or is it a combination of the two (record and race)?

The reason I ask is... They been chasin' Barry for years... well before he reached the record. Yes, he was arrogant and pissed folks off, but still. When McGuire was chasing his record...and obviously he was "juiced up" lookin' at his size during his record run versus before, the media hype was nowhere near as large trying to discredit him. (I guess if you "play nice", then they can overlook your steroid issues.. :shrug: )

Bottom line... the media does not like an arrogant Black man who breaks records (I suppose). We'll have to find an arrogant White man who has a shot at breaking records to confirm/discredit this. :D

[cheapie]

So are you saying that the record chase drew more attention or is it a combination of the two (record and race)?

The reason I ask is... They been chasin' Barry for years... well before he reached the record. Yes, he was arrogant and pissed folks off, but still. When McGuire was chasing his record...and obviously he was "juiced up" lookin' at his size during his record run versus before, the media hype was nowhere near as large trying to discredit him. (I guess if you "play nice", then they can overlook your steroid issues.. :shrug: )

Bottom line... the media does not like an arrogant Black man who breaks records (I suppose). We'll have to find an arrogant White man who has a shot at breaking records to confim this. :D

i would certainly agree with you that there has been a bunch of piling on with barry. he has gotten more attention than mcquire for sure. but i think we were more naive back when he broke the single season record. and he and sosa were both chasing it.

there might be a racist component to some of the attention. you are more likely to pick up on that they most of us, ummm, less-pigmented fellows :) i just get frustrated when i feel that I am being called a racist because i don't like him.

i just thought of a great good example of a white guy chasing a record! lance armstrong. he is certainly an arrogant white guy. and believe me, while most americans admire him, much of the cycling community around the world hates him with a passion. it's fairly obvious he was a doper and was just much, MUCH better at masking it than others. sure, he was likely a better rider than many others but he and his team showed all the classic signs of doping

[DarkFury]

i just thought of a great good example of a white guy chasing a record! lance armstrong. he is certainly an arrogant white guy. and believe me, while most americans admire him, much of the cycling community around the world hates him with a passion. it's fairly obvious he was a doper and was just much, MUCH better at masking it than others. sure, he was likely a better rider than many others but he and his team showed all the classic signs of doping
To be honest Cheapie... for the longest I was gonna mention "Lance Armstrong", but I didn't. (since nobody could prove anything on him). Yet he sure did seem suspicious enough to warrant further investigation even to the level that Bonds has been investigated.

From what I saw, there was one major attack sent his way about the possibility that he did something "illegal" in winning his titles... but somehow all of that got squashed and you don't even hear about it anymore (and then he just suddenly "retired" ...)

Maybe that's it... you have to retire/leave the sport and then all of the media attention vanishes. So many folks want Barry to "just go away" and he won't...so they just keep adding more pressure. But still, based on the society we currently live in, I've just gotten the impression that if you are man of color, if you want to succeed, you do what you are supposed to do and KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT. That's what society seems to want us to do. Don't get all cocky and strut around pissin' folks off... just keep your mouth shut, accept your awards and accolades and move on.

We've seen this countless times in many sports and other "high power" activities. And yes, I do understand that the "less pigmented" folks are not as sensitive on this issue as us "more pigmented" folks... but hey... sometimes it's like walkin' on eggshells discussing these issues.

That being said... Tiger Woods better keep that million dollar smile on his face and stay "family friendly". Cause if he ever became "cocky" you best believe they will be after him as well. Remember way back when... they even went after Jordan and his "gambling issues"... and folks LOVED Jordan. He got too big... yet, he had some really good "damage control" in place (i.e. his wife and close friends KEPT THEIR MOUTHS SHUT during the whole time he was an active basketball player.) Now, after the fact she has divorced him and got nearly half his cash (guess she was REALLY smart huh?)

Either way, it just appears to me that lots of the top minorities in sports put themselves in a position to be attacked just because of who they are.. that's all I'm really saying. They are OBVIOUS targets and there are lots of folks (not saying YOU in particular) who want to take pot shots at them... and if something should happen to stick, sic the dogs on them (no pun intended for the Vick case). :shrug: :sad: :2far:

BTW... years from now, if the the rumors about Lance pan out to be true (i.e. some "report" comes out and exposes him), will you turn your back on him and scorn him because he "did it"? Or will you say... oh well, that was in the past, and he isn't actively chasing a record now... so what!!!. :hmm:

So much taint... that it ain't even funny. :hehehmm:

[cheapie]

i've pretty much already turned my back on lance, tyler hamilton, and floyd landis. :shrug: seriously. i'm so :disa: in them that i've really almost stopped following pro road racing.

here's why i think a lot of the black stars get a lot of attention.

most of the top stars in football and basketball are black. many of them, especially basketball players, are far more into hip-hop than their white counterparts. however, most of the fans of both of these sports are white and most def did not grow up in the hip-hop culture.

that immediately brings up a cultural clash. racist? i don't think so but can see where it can occasionally be interpreted as such.

your point about keeping their mouths shut, are you saying it's different with white players? that white players are able to say what they want without expecting public backlash? or are you saying that black players are expected to act like white players and toe the line and that's bothersome? cuz if you look at the biggest white stars in both leagues (maybe manning, brady, romo, dirk, nash?), they're not exactly lighting up their teammates and coaches and spouting off to the media and getting away with it.

and i don't think your point about not wanting a black man to break records is...substantiated. LT, jerry rice, etc. all set/broke records and they weren't hounded.

and i don't think it's necessarily just being outspoken. it's not like bonds, owens, keyshawn, etc. were sticking up for social justice, the poor, etc when their comments gained attention.

[zippyjuan]

I think Bonds was a target because he was still out there. McGuire retired and did not publicly declare innocence all the time. Around that time, Sosa probably quit using them as his homers dropped pretty dramatically. Bonds is still out there, experiencing miraculous recoveries from injuries (not as swift to recover this year when he was being watched more) and he continued to say he had no idea what he was using. The more he said he did not know, the more people questioned him. I think his attitude was much more important to how people react to him than his race. If Big Mac was still out there and claiming he never used steroids and closing in on one of the holy records of baseball, he would receive similar treatment.

[DarkFury]

your point about keeping their mouths shut, are you saying it's different with white players? that white players are able to say what they want without expecting public backlash? or are you saying that black players are expected to act like white players and toe the line and that's bothersome? cuz if you look at the biggest white stars in both leagues (maybe manning, brady, romo, dirk, nash?), they're not exactly lighting up their teammates and coaches and spouting off to the media and getting away with it.

and i don't think your point about not wanting a black man to break records is...substantiated. LT, jerry rice, etc. all set/broke records and they weren't hounded.

and i don't think it's necessarily just being outspoken. it's not like bonds, owens, keyshawn, etc. were sticking up for social justice, the poor, etc when their comments gained attention.
No, I'm saying that you don't see many brash White players anymore to make a comparison. Maybe they've learned "to play the game" when it comes to the politics of sports... I dunno (either that, or they just don't have much to brag about these days... :D ) Now if a White person makes a racist comment, then yes, the dogs will come out after him. But I just don't see random acts of media just because they are out there (not that I can currently identify anyone who fits that scenario at the moment.)

All in all... I guess Bonds, Owens, Johnson, etc were just being "themselves"... and in doing such they draw more unwanted attention to themselves.

Kinda like the game of Survivor... I've stated for several seasons, that the best way for a Black man or woman to stay in that game is to keep their mouth shut and don't cause ripples in the social pond with their tribe mates. Do those things, and you're SURE to get ousted early. A white person on the other hand can ruffle those feathers somewhat and still stand a chance to being there until the end... This has been proven several times on that show.

[cheapie]

No, I'm saying that you don't see many brash White players anymore to make a comparison. Maybe they've learned "to play the game" when it comes to the politics of sports... I dunno (either that, or they just don't have much to brag about these days... :D ) Now if a White person makes a racist comment, then yes, the dogs will come out after him. But I just don't see random acts of media just because they are out there (not that I can currently identify anyone who fits that scenario at the moment.)

All in all... I guess Bonds, Owens, Johnson, etc were just being "themselves"... and in doing such they draw more unwanted attention to themselves.

Kinda like the game of Survivor... I've stated for several seasons, that the best way for a Black man or woman to stay in that game is to keep their mouth shut and don't cause ripples in the social pond with their tribe mates. Do those things, and you're SURE to get ousted early. A white person on the other hand can ruffle those feathers somewhat and still stand a chance to being there until the end... This has been proven several times on that show.

do you really think it's unwanted attention? maybe in the case of bonds but TO and Key obviously relish and seek out the attention.

i think i would agree with your comments. i think some of the white stars have learned to "play the game" better. they make be just as big of a jerk and a loudmouth at home but seem (imho) more reluctant to appear as such in front of their fans and sponsors.

guys like shockey are sometimes refreshing. sometimes not.


i think i'd sometimes hate to be a pro black athlete. the vast VAST majority of them are good people. then you have guys like tinsley, 1/2 the bengals, and vick who do what they do and the rest of the black athletes can get painted with the same brush.

so when an other wise law-abiding black athlete has a single misstep, some of the fans and media lump him in with the truly bad guys and give the incident more coverage that it might get if he was white. do you think this is sometimes the case?


btw, thanks for discussing this candidly. i appreciate your comments and it's good to see these issues from your side. while i sometimes think assume it's racism too quickly, i am probably too reluctant to do so.

[johnnymk]

http://www.geeknewz.com/imagedb/albums/userpics/10004/thumb_thread_wont_die.jpg

[cheapie]

says the man that has posted 10,000 times about ethanol and the real estate market. :wavey:

[DarkFury]

http://www.geeknewz.com/imagedb/albums/userpics/10004/thumb_thread_wont_die.jpg
Ha ha..

Funny thing is... YOU created the monster.


Bet ya won't do that again. :D




do you really think it's unwanted attention? maybe in the case of bonds but TO and Key obviously relish and seek out the attention.
Of course TO and Johnson do it on purpose... but then again, their antics are seen as "comical" to most fans and they do it for laughs and attention. You don't see the media probing into their personal lives and invading their personal space trying to dig up all kinds of skeletons. In their cases, we are talkin' a much different thing... thus they are not really the target of this type of discussion.





i think i'd sometimes hate to be a pro black athlete. the vast VAST majority of them are good people. then you have guys like tinsley, 1/2 the bengals, and vick who do what they do and the rest of the black athletes can get painted with the same brush.

so when an other wise law-abiding black athlete has a single misstep, some of the fans and media lump him in with the truly bad guys and give the incident more coverage that it might get if he was white. do you think this is sometimes the case?


btw, thanks for discussing this candidly. i appreciate your comments and it's good to see these issues from your side. while i sometimes think assume it's racism too quickly, i am probably too reluctant to do so.
Go take a look at this past article on MSN on Bonds.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19796395/

Whether folks realize it or not, there really is a "racial divide" on this issue. Of course you and me do seem to be on opposite sides of that divide on this particular case.

[DarkFury]

Utt oh... Roger Clemens says: "I didn't do it!"

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7580456?MSNHPHMA

I wonder if he'll say that before the grand jury... or if there will be a grand jury hearing on it. :hmm:

[VTGreg]

Utt oh... Roger Clemens says: "I didn't do it!"

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7580456?MSNHPHMA

I wonder if he'll say that before the grand jury... or if there will be a grand jury hearing on it. :hmm:

Well, considering he isn't wrapped up with BALCO, I doubt there will be any sort of grand jury. You have to remember that the grand jury wasn't out to get Bonds, it was targeting BALCO. Bonds was granted immunity so if he did in fact commit perjury, he has no one to blame but himself. Giambi and Sheffield were both also subpoenaed and admitted to using steriods.

From what I hear, Clemens may be required to testify before congress.

[DarkFury]

Well, considering he isn't wrapped up with BALCO, I doubt there will be any sort of grand jury. You have to remember that the grand jury wasn't out to get Bonds, it was targeting BALCO. Bonds was granted immunity so if he did in fact commit perjury, he has no one to blame but himself. Giambi and Sheffield were both also subpoenaed and admitted to using steriods.

From what I hear, Clemens may be required to testify before congress.
Ah... I see.

I guess them dogs will have to go out and bite someone else huh?

[VTGreg]

Ah... I see.

I guess them dogs will have to go out and bite someone else huh?

It will be interesting to see how Clemens handles it if he is forced to testify before congress. I wonder if he will take the Big Mac approach and essentially plead the 5th or if he vehemently denies the use like Palmiero (boy wasn't that a mistake). Whether or not Clemens plans on playing next season may have an impact on his strategy for his testimony.