The end of Hi Def DVD battle?

[RoniMan]

From businessweek.com

High-Definition Knockout
Warner Bros. opts to back the Blu-ray high-def DVD format in a decision that could drive consumers away from the rival standard, HD DVD

The battle to determine the future of the DVD may be coming to an end. In a blow to Toshiba's (TOSBF) HD DVD movie format, Warner Bros. Entertainment (TWX) announced on Jan. 4 that it plans to begin releasing high-definition movies exclusively in the Blu-ray format backed by Sony (SNE) and dozens of consumer electronics and PC industry titans.

Warner's decision could consign the HD DVD format to the dustbin of consumer technologies that delivered on their promise but failed to secure the backing of key decision-makers. Warner had been considered a linchpin in the race for dominance between Blu-ray and HD DVD. The studio has the largest library of movies in the industry and consistently releases many of the biggest hits annually.

Both camps had been lobbying to get Warner to make a decision ahead of the annual Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas next week. Retailers attend the giant trade show to determine which items they might like on their shelves. Warner executives late last year said they planned to evaluate the market after watching sales of both HD DVD and Blu-ray titles and players during the holiday shopping period. "We just looked at what the consumers were telling us, and they were saying it was Blu-ray," says Barry Meyer, CEO of Warner Bros. Entertainment, which had supported both formats.
Denial of a Bidding War

BusinessWeek reported in December that both DVD camps were offering Warner cash and incentives in exchange for exclusive support (BusinessWeek, 12/6/07). One source reported that Toshiba had offered to pay more than $100 million, while Sony bid closer to $400 million. But Meyer denied there was a bidding war and said Warner instead looked solely at global sales of both formats in making its decision. "The window of opportunity for high-definition DVD could be missed if format confusion continues to linger," he said.

Warner plans to continue releasing HD DVD titles through June, after releasing them first on Blu-ray and standard DVDs. When it begins releasing films exclusively to Blu-ray in July, more than 70% of new releases will be exclusive to the Blu-ray format. Warner joins Disney (DIS), Fox (NWS), MGM, Sony's studio, and Lionsgate (LGF) as major supporters.

As a practical matter, retailers are likely to begin phasing out HD DVD players almost immediately despite recent price-cutting that saw some HD DVD players tumble to just $99, compared with about $400 for Blu-ray machines.

Well, I guess it's time to buy the ps3.

[ray]

I have the XBox360 HD DVD addon drive (purchased for $120) and I've got my 7 free HD-DVDs or whatever. I've watched Blu-Ray movies and HD-DVD movies and can't tell the difference in quality. I'm not really into all the special disc features and never spend the time to go through most of the crap that comes with regular DVDs.

With that said, I still think Sony's proprietary everything is the reason for their poor performance across the board in the past decade. Back in the day of Trinitron and Walkman, Sony was a beast in the consumer electronics market. But since those times, they've really only had one success and that was the Playstation (sans the PS3...for the time being).

Is this the end of the latest format war? It very well could be. Am I happy that Blu-Ray seems to have the edge now? Absolutely not. I was a Sony fan when I was growing up, but now with so many cheaper alternatives with the same quality I'll choose the competitors who allow for some third-party manufacturing of hardware, accesssories, etc.

[renovation]

when i was younger Sony was #1
and Panasonic was no.2
for portable radios and walkmans
sony was also a leader in tvs back then.
but so was a lot of company that are no longer around .
there were RCA that were made by RCA and not just a retagged manufacture. hell tv sets were made in factorys right here in the USA. now you can't find one true american made tv. lot have american name plates .but i can't think of one made on american soil :(

heck tell me one car that is made with 100 % american made parts today. if you can name one i'd send you a tee shirt. im talking 100% american made production auto .not some specialty car.

[nate el bueno]

That's kind of disappointing to me. I've never liked sony that much, but as if my opinion changes anything...I was reading maximum PC last night and apparently Microsoft is trying to keep HD-DVD in the battle by offering content only on HD-DVDs, and some guy was ranting about how he thought Microsoft wanted to make both fail so people would turn to their online content or something of the sort.

[eSDee]

Crap I just got an Xbox360! I wanted to get the external HD DVD player (I still might). I wish the war would be over already. I need to get my high def DVD collection started soon!

[tupacboy]

damn i was hoping somewhere in there samsung comes out of nowhere and does something totally new... lol

[Memo]

I'm pretty sure the war is over:

"HD DVD Throws in the Towel"
http://www.i4u.com/article13927.html

[LPMiller]

That's kind of disappointing to me. I've never liked sony that much, but as if my opinion changes anything...I was reading maximum PC last night and apparently Microsoft is trying to keep HD-DVD in the battle by offering content only on HD-DVDs, and some guy was ranting about how he thought Microsoft wanted to make both fail so people would turn to their online content or something of the sort.

That's pretty much true though. Micorsoft has made no secret they believe the future is digital downloads. Me, I don't think it's happening until FOIS is more prevalent. If micorsoft really cared, the Xbox would have launched with HDDVD.

[DarkFury]

From businessweek.com


Well, I guess it's time to buy the ps3.

BTW... not that anyone is paying attention, but sbp beat ya to the punch on this by a day here:

http://www.gotapex.com/home-theater-equipment/163693-warner-bros-goes-blu-ray-exclusive-beginning-may-08-a.html

[Houdini]

Well, at least in this case it seems the superior tech won out...Blu-ray is 1080p, right?

Kinda like the Beta/VHS war. Beta was clearly superior (same reason that news cameras, if they're not digital, they're beta,) but VHS had longer tapes and more studios jumped on, primarily b/c it took Sony ages to license its technology.

H <---still has a couple of beta decks lying around. I only use them every few years to record something important, which I may have to stop doing if I get a DVR.

BTW, any non-TIVO (non-pay-by-month) DVRs around that people like? I'd really like to catch my favorite shows whenever they're on.

H

[LPMiller]

both are 1080p, neither really can be said to have superior tech. One holds a little more than the other, but it wasn't every really relevent.

[InfiniteNothing]

Well, I guess it's time for Toshiba to come out with an even longer and more awkward acronym: VHDDVD. Deep color, xvYCC, 4K, here we come :)

Oh wait. How about UV-ray pronounced You've-Ray

[Prngr44]

I wonder how long it'll take MS to come out with their BluRay addon for the 360?

[InfiniteNothing]

I imagine since they use the same Codecs MS could recycle much of their code. Still, like it was said before, they might not want to because they want to bolster their own IP movie system.

[Jeffbx]

It won't be blu-ray, it'll be dual format, I bet.

[DarkFury]

Honestly, it looks to me that Sony dug REALLY deep into its pockets to buy this win...

Still... I dunno if this battle is over yet. I'm still not buying any HD disk players in light of this announcement. I want a final decision before I invest any of my money into either one.

[Houdini]

both are 1080p, neither really can be said to have superior tech. One holds a little more than the other, but it wasn't every really relevent.

Ah..didn't know HD-DVD could handle 1080p. I stand corrected. Thanks. :)

H <--still a Beta fan

[DarkFury]

Ah..didn't know HD-DVD could handle 1080p. I stand corrected. Thanks. :)

H <--still a Beta fan
BTW.. I read from another forum (GASP) that HD-DVD was technologically "superior" in regards to functionality over Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray just had a "capacity" edge... but as far as overall functions as to what you could do with the format, HD-DVD came out ahead.

That info was posted in article in the San Jose Mercury News.

Here is a recap of what was said in that article (reprinted since it was a real paper and not an online article...)


Paper: San Jose Mercury News
Date: November 26, 2007
Section: Tech (section "C")
Page: 5C
Title: Why HD DVD beats Blu-ray



Originally Posted by Steven Kelly
When you say your recommendation of HD DVD comes down to three things and list the three, I think you could actually distill it down to just No. 3. Your first reason, "Picture and sound quality is indentical between formats," doesn't favor one over the other. No. 2, the lack of uspport for Blu-ray features in most current players, is also a non-issue unless you can tell me that HD DVD currently has features unavailable in any Blu-ray palyer. So, if I follow you correctly, the only advantage to HD DVD is lower initial cost, if one discounts the higher capacity and potential of Blu-ray discs. I read your print article and came to your blog in doing my own research to try to find the better unit/format, but was disappointed by what appears to be a personal dislike for Sony.



Originally Posted by Don Lindich
First of all, Blu-ray is a group of companies, and I have nothing against Sony--in fact I just bought their top TV and admire the many contributions they have made to the world of television, from pro users on down. I am not a Blu-ray fan, though, and do not deny or attempt to hide it. I have good reasons for feeling the way I do about HD DVD vs. Blu-ray.

In response to your statement, in fact I can tell you that HD DVD players have features that Blu-ray lacks--mandatory picture-inpicture decoders and Web interactivity. With picture-in-picture you can open a second video stream with features such as direct'rs commentary and behind-the-scenes looks at how the action sequences were made while you watch the scene unfold in the main picture. With Web interactivity you can connect your HD DVD player to an Ethernet Web connection and download fresh content to enhance your discs. To see an interactivity demo, check out TheLookAndSoundOfPerfect.com.

Blu-ray is just now announcing stand-alone players that can do picture-in-picture, and that is a lone model from Panasonic. The promised Web interactivity, BD-Live, is no available on any Blu-ray plaers, though they are working on it. Others are starting to speak up about this situation. Clint DeBoer, editor in chief for Audioholics.com, had this to say on his blog, avrant.com:

"HD DVD is a completed spec, Blu-ray is a 'we're not done yet, gimmie just a few more months and maybe we'll get it completed' spec. Let me repeat that : Blu-ray does NOT offer the same features as HD DVD and the HD DVD features have been ready since Day 1. There is currently no player on the market (as of this writing, though they are coming out prior to the holidays) that handles dual stream vidoe and BD profile 1.1. For some odd reason the TV commercials don't tell you this."

Blu-ray can certainly deliver a wonderful experinece, and I don't want anyone to think otherwise--as I said, both formats have terrific video and sound quality. You can get a lot more for your money elsewhere, though. HD DVD's advanced features, completely affordable cost, and that it is a complete specification that every player supports make it is a very easy recommendation for me. In my eyes, these strong advantages far outweigh Blu-ray's extra disc space. To its credit Blu-ray's additional capacity does provide more opportunities to use better sounding audio tracks (lossless compression), but few people have systems that can reveal the differences, and even then they would be minor if the track is well done. As it is, plenty of HD DVDs have lossless audio tracks, the extra space needed only for long movies fit onto a single disc.

Honestly, with features like this, it is somewhat surprising that Blu Ray will win... but then again, with a major company like Sony putting it's financial muscle behind something like this so furiously, it's really no surprise that they had the ability to buy out the market.

[InfiniteNothing]

The main advantage of Bluray IMHO is that per rotation, there is more data. That enables faster read times of disks without physically spinning at 10000 rpm (which is bad, CDs have been known to disintegrate and practically explode in a mess of plastic shrapnel).

I'm not sure if I mind a la cart features like internet connectivity.

Both specs are still in transition: isn't HD DVD kicking around a 51 GB V2

[LPMiller]

BTW.. I read from another forum (GASP) that HD-DVD was technologically "superior" in regards to functionality over Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray just had a "capacity" edge... but as far as overall functions as to what you could do with the format, HD-DVD came out ahead.

That info was posted in article in the San Jose Mercury News.

Here is a recap of what was said in that article (reprinted since it was a real paper and not an online article...)


Paper: San Jose Mercury News
Date: November 26, 2007
Section: Tech (section "C")
Page: 5C
Title: Why HD DVD beats Blu-ray





Honestly, with features like this, it is somewhat surprising that Blu Ray will win... but then again, with a major company like Sony putting it's financial muscle behind something like this so furiously, it's really no surprise that they had the ability to buy out the market.

Well, bluray CAN do this stuff, the spec just isn't fully in place yet. 1.1 spec added things like the picture in picture thing; 2.0 spec will bring it right in line with HD. Long term, there is no functional difference. And tech doesn't matter, and never has, it's always been about content. When it's a console, it's the games, for movies, it's the movies. Bluray always had a studio advantage, the biggest being Disney.

Plus that article is wrong, any updateable player can do the picture in picture thing, like the PS3. The only ones who can't are the units that didn't ship with updatable firmwares.

As an aside, I went to target to pick up 3:10 to Yuma in bluray - and it was sold out. First time I've ever seen that. So was Dragon Wars. I think a lot of bluray owners are suddenly a lot less shy about buying movies thanks to warners.

[DarkFury]

Well, bluray CAN do this stuff, the spec just isn't fully in place yet. 1.1 spec added things like the picture in picture thing; 2.0 spec will bring it right in line with HD. Long term, there is no functional difference. And tech doesn't matter, and never has, it's always been about content. When it's a console, it's the games, for movies, it's the movies. Bluray always had a studio advantage, the biggest being Disney.

Plus that article is wrong, any updateable player can do the picture in picture thing, like the PS3. The only ones who can't are the units that didn't ship with updatable firmwares.

As an aside, I went to target to pick up 3:10 to Yuma in bluray - and it was sold out. First time I've ever seen that. So was Dragon Wars. I think a lot of bluray owners are suddenly a lot less shy about buying movies thanks to warners.
I think what the article was trying to say is... HD-DVD had all of these features as it's "original intent" and design, while on Blu-Ray, they are more or less "after thought" features and add ons.

[LPMiller]

which is true, but apparently, irrelevent. But you know, people were saying the PSP would trounch the DS, because it had all those features. It also had no games at all. If you don't have the content, your tech don't mean diddly. Bluray had a huge advantage there.

Having said that, combined they are still a teeeny tiny bit of the overall market at this point anyway.

[DarkFury]

I'm still not diggin' on Blu-Ray... either way. I guess I'll just have to wait for the final bell on this one.

BTW... PSP is still for "older kids" while the DS is fine in it's niche. It's not like one is supposed to compete with the other as a "STANDARD" thus eliminating the loser to be tossed out and forgotten. VHS and BetaMax will forever be the true analogy.

Sony pretty much just bullied its way into the top spot by buying out the major movie producers (as well as selling their tech at extremely cut rate prices... the loss leader strategy) to come to this end. At least with VHS and BetaMax, we as CONSUMERS made the decision... in this case, CORPORATES made that decision for us.

[SteveB]

I'm not so sure we made the Betamax decision. As I remember it, there were few tapes available in Beta format.
I don't own a BR player so I can't speak about them from experience. I do have a HD DVD player and love it. I have gone to stores on release days to get a movie and they were sold out to so that's not just a BR experience. I was in Fry's today and they had the largest selection of HD DVDs I've seen in any store. They occupied as much shelf space as BR. Since my Toshiba XA2 does such a good job of upconverting SD DVDs I don't see much need in getting a BR player. Having said that when a good dual format player or a BR player comes out that is price competitive to HD players I will most likely get on. There are some movies that I want to see/hear in HD that are exclusive to BR.

[Airencracken]

LaserDisc for life!!!

[LPMiller]

I'm still not diggin' on Blu-Ray... either way. I guess I'll just have to wait for the final bell on this one.

BTW... PSP is still for "older kids" while the DS is fine in it's niche. It's not like one is supposed to compete with the other as a "STANDARD" thus eliminating the loser to be tossed out and forgotten. VHS and BetaMax will forever be the true analogy.

Sony pretty much just bullied its way into the top spot by buying out the major movie producers (as well as selling their tech at extremely cut rate prices... the loss leader strategy) to come to this end. At least with VHS and BetaMax, we as CONSUMERS made the decision... in this case, CORPORATES made that decision for us.


Bluray outsells HDDVD discs 2 to 1, how did consumers not make the decision? HD DVD had cheaper hardware, they went bluray. So what if sony paid the movie studios, so did toshiba, it was the smart thing to do.

As to PSP/DS, I'm just pointing out how it's content that is king, not hardware.

[DarkFury]

Bluray outsells HDDVD discs 2 to 1, how did consumers not make the decision? HD DVD had cheaper hardware, they went bluray. So what if sony paid the movie studios, so did toshiba, it was the smart thing to do.

As to PSP/DS, I'm just pointing out how it's content that is king, not hardware.
Cooperation amongst the studios to PRODUCE movies in the HD-DVD format is most likely why BR sold more.

Do you have any figures as to if all the movies currently out had equal amounts of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD available to truly show which one was picked more?

What I'm saying here is that Sony manipulated the market with various agreements with the movie makers which limited how many HD-DVD discs were actually out there to sell. Pretty much, the results of 2 to 1 seem SKEWED to me in light of Sony's push on the distributors.

All Toshiba could do was lower it's prices on equipment... they couldn't force the distributors to make more movies in its format exclusively like Sony did.

BTW... I still don't see the point of your PSP/DS comments. We are talking format standards here... not just "options". DS is doing just fine as it is and probably isn't going anywhere... Nintendo does a fine job catering to its "niche" markets. Toshiba on the other had doesn't have that option as far as HD-DVD is concerned.

[LPMiller]

Of course sony did what they could to control content, so did toshiba. Paramount and Universal didn't sign on to HD DVD due to good will, they got paid, they got a contract. So yeah, they COULD in fact get distributer to work with them. 150Million bucks is nice pocket change.

Toshiba and sony did the exact same things. Sony spent more, but not in all cases. Disney was bluray from the get go because they wanted the larger discs and better DRM, for instance. Fox always wanted bluray, they were just waiting on the BD+ DRM scheme. It wasn't all money changing hands.

But the consumers still were the ones that made the actual purchases. In cases where they were the same, blu ray out sold HDDVD, usually by two to 1, but in the case of a massive blockbuster like Harry Potter, they were a bit closer. Though you have to keep in mind, only warners was releasing for both in any quantity, so it was actually pretty rare when they went head to head.

Year to date sales figures as of Nov 11 as per Hidef digest (where they were releases on both):

300 (Ratio: 1.89)
Superman Returns (Ratio: 1.82)
Happy Feet (Ratio: 1.65)
The Departed (Ratio: 1.64)
Ocean's 13 (Ratio: ~1.60)
Planet Earth (Ratio: 0.95)

Only Planet Earth sold more in HD. Not sure why.


http://www.engadgethd.com/tag/VideoScan/

But as you can see here, sales were pretty much on a 2 to 1 bases pretty much since the launch of bluray, which is amazing when you consider HD launched first, and has always had the cheaper hardware. It goes against conventional wisdom, except, content is king. Bluray had the content. Sony may have manipulated things, but it was the consumers that bought the stuff. The consumers selected content over cost (and a completed spec) so yeah, the consumers did make the choice. The hardcore, nerdy consumers.

Now, if you honestly think the DS is a niche market, I can understand why you aren't getting the comparison. The DS consistently sells more units per week then any other console, period. It is the number 1 console right now. It's not even remotely niche. It actually defines the word mainstream.

[InfiniteNothing]

Another possible final blow:
http://gizmodo.com/343730/universal-wont-support-hd-dvd-exclusively-blu+ray-victory-imminent-says-variety

[DarkFury]

Of course sony did what they could to control content, so did toshiba. Paramount and Universal didn't sign on to HD DVD due to good will, they got paid, they got a contract. So yeah, they COULD in fact get distributer to work with them. 150Million bucks is nice pocket change.

Toshiba and sony did the exact same things. Sony spent more, but not in all cases. Disney was bluray from the get go because they wanted the larger discs and better DRM, for instance. Fox always wanted bluray, they were just waiting on the BD+ DRM scheme. It wasn't all money changing hands.

But the consumers still were the ones that made the actual purchases. In cases where they were the same, blu ray out sold HDDVD, usually by two to 1, but in the case of a massive blockbuster like Harry Potter, they were a bit closer. Though you have to keep in mind, only warners was releasing for both in any quantity, so it was actually pretty rare when they went head to head.

Year to date sales figures as of Nov 11 as per Hidef digest (where they were releases on both):

300 (Ratio: 1.89)
Superman Returns (Ratio: 1.82)
Happy Feet (Ratio: 1.65)
The Departed (Ratio: 1.64)
Ocean's 13 (Ratio: ~1.60)
Planet Earth (Ratio: 0.95)

Only Planet Earth sold more in HD. Not sure why.


http://www.engadgethd.com/tag/VideoScan/

But as you can see here, sales were pretty much on a 2 to 1 bases pretty much since the launch of bluray, which is amazing when you consider HD launched first, and has always had the cheaper hardware. It goes against conventional wisdom, except, content is king. Bluray had the content. Sony may have manipulated things, but it was the consumers that bought the stuff. The consumers selected content over cost (and a completed spec) so yeah, the consumers did make the choice. The hardcore, nerdy consumers.

Now, if you honestly think the DS is a niche market, I can understand why you aren't getting the comparison. The DS consistently sells more units per week then any other console, period. It is the number 1 console right now. It's not even remotely niche. It actually defines the word mainstream.

Sony 400 mill > Toshiba 150 mill FAIL! :2far:

Well of course consumers are gonna eat the dogfood if that is all you give them. Those of us that stayed out of the fray... didn't participate. Either way, you pretty much just restated what I said earlier about Sony buying out most of the market and then by it dumping a bunch of product (by way of cheap PS3s) and pushing a bunch of "FREE" DVDs with purchases of units then it would be dayuum near obvious that they could sell 2 to 1. Toshiba, as big as they are never had the financial muscle of a Sony to begin with.

As far as DS goes... WTH are you talkin' about? Are you only talkin' about "portables" or are you talkin' about all gaming consoles? PSP AND DS still exist alongside one another... they aren't "format" warring... so what's the point? As an adult, I'd rather have a PSP, but as a kid, the DS still is a better choice... :shrug: That was my point about the "niche". I don't see a bunch of adults running around with DS... but if they are, they sure are hiding them. Hell, even my 12 year old niece has a PSP... over a DS (which I'm surprised of... considering how much a cheapskate my brother is when it comes to gaming units. My 17 y.o newphew on the other hand is still stuck playing with his PS2... since he ain't gonna spring for a PS3. :heh: )

Pretty much, we figured that the movie industry would throw in with Blu Ray over their up front support of DRM. Bad Bad for us "consumers"... yet... here fido... here's your dogfood. NOW EAT IT!!! :puke:

[LPMiller]

Sony 400 mill > Toshiba 150 mill FAIL! :2far:

Well of course consumers are gonna eat the dogfood if that is all you give them. Those of us that stayed out of the fray... didn't participate. Either way, you pretty much just restated what I said earlier about Sony buying out most of the market and then by it dumping a bunch of product (by way of cheap PS3s) and pushing a bunch of "FREE" DVDs with purchases of units then it would be dayuum near obvious that they could sell 2 to 1. Toshiba, as big as they are never had the financial muscle of a Sony to begin with.

I don't understand your point here, unless you are implying it was a bad thing or something or that sony was the only one. Toshiba literally price dumped hardware, and they BOTH did the free disc thing (and still do) so....what? They both made the same moves, in many ways Toshiba made them first, if sony has a bigger wallet, so what? I'd have made those moves too. That's just smart business. As for that 2 to 1 - that was entirely the PS3. Even a third place console means a hell of a lot of bluray players.


As far as DS goes... WTH are you talkin' about? Are you only talkin' about "portables" or are you talkin' about all gaming consoles? PSP AND DS still exist alongside one another... they aren't "format" warring... so what's the point? As an adult, I'd rather have a PSP, but as a kid, the DS still is a better choice... :shrug: That was my point about the "niche". I don't see a bunch of adults running around with DS... but if they are, they sure are hiding them. Hell, even my 12 year old niece has a PSP... over a DS (which I'm surprised of... considering how much a cheapskate my brother is when it comes to gaming units. My 17 y.o newphew on the other hand is still stuck playing with his PS2... since he ain't gonna spring for a PS3. :heh: )

See, this is your opinion, but doesn't match facts in the least.

For one thing, the DS and PSP were launched within a few months of each other, and were in direct competition. Now, no, they aren't, but that wasn't Sony's intent. They've managed to 'rescue' the PSP, but THAT is niche. It's a hardcore gamer machine, that's it.

For another, you seem to not understand Niche. As of Sept 2007, Nintendo has sold 53.64 million units. The PSP isn't even in the right neighborhood for that. It's big problem was a serious lack of games on launch. You may see it as a more adult system, but more adults buy the DS than the PSP for their casual gaming. it is incredibly popular with adult gamers, and much like the Wii pulls in the non gamers, mostly women. It is not considered a kids toy at all at this point, and is quite mainstream. It prints money. It outsells every game console on a week to week basis in both Japan and America - this includes the Wii, the 360, you name it - and for you to even use the word Niche is just......really way wrong. I mean like, massively really way wrong.


Pretty much, we figured that the movie industry would throw in with Blu Ray over their up front support of DRM. Bad Bad for us "consumers"... yet... here fido... here's your dogfood. NOW EAT IT!!! :puke:

Who is we? And again, your facts aren't right. HD-DVD had DRM from day one. It was defeated within a short time, but it has it and always did. Bluray also always had DRM, BD+ is just a newer, so far non hacked DRM that Fox was waiting on. But DRM was in the mix from the get go on both formats.

I dunno, it seems to annoy you that bluray is winning, which is odd when you don't own either format. I would think you'd be happy it's all over with. You also seem annoyed with sony for just doing what toshiba was doing, only better. I really don't understand where you are coming from.

[DarkFury]

I don't understand your point here, unless you are implying it was a bad thing or something or that sony was the only one. Toshiba literally price dumped hardware, and they BOTH did the free disc thing (and still do) so....what? They both made the same moves, in many ways Toshiba made them first, if sony has a bigger wallet, so what? I'd have made those moves too. That's just smart business. As for that 2 to 1 - that was entirely the PS3. Even a third place console means a hell of a lot of bluray players.
Not understanding my point is part of your problem here. My original point was the fact that Sony flexed it's financial muscle and forced it's way into making the final decision about who's format was going to be the final one. (and that in forcing it's point financially, we the consumers really were limited as to what choices "WE" wanted to make. We could only buy what was offered... Toshiba couldn't force the the major movie companies to put out in both formats and didn't have the financial muscle to outbid Sony... hence "Sony wins". What is so hard for your brain to wrap around this thought?






See, this is your opinion, but doesn't match facts in the least.

For one thing, the DS and PSP were launched within a few months of each other, and were in direct competition. Now, no, they aren't, but that wasn't Sony's intent. They've managed to 'rescue' the PSP, but THAT is niche. It's a hardcore gamer machine, that's it.

For another, you seem to not understand Niche. As of Sept 2007, Nintendo has sold 53.64 million units. The PSP isn't even in the right neighborhood for that. It's big problem was a serious lack of games on launch. You may see it as a more adult system, but more adults buy the DS than the PSP for their casual gaming. it is incredibly popular with adult gamers, and much like the Wii pulls in the non gamers, mostly women. It is not considered a kids toy at all at this point, and is quite mainstream. It prints money. It outsells every game console on a week to week basis in both Japan and America - this includes the Wii, the 360, you name it - and for you to even use the word Niche is just......really way wrong. I mean like, massively really way wrong.
Yes... this really is my OPINION... so why are you arguing it so hard. I still don't see a bunch of adults whipping out their Nintendo DSes and playing games on them even if the numbers show otherwise. Who knows.. maybe most of those folks in your figures above are in Japan or overseas somewhere. :shrug: Still... I don't see many Americans over the age of 12 playing with DSes here... maybe they are "closet players" or something? :shrug:




Who is we? And again, your facts aren't right. HD-DVD had DRM from day one. It was defeated within a short time, but it has it and always did. Bluray also always had DRM, BD+ is just a newer, so far non hacked DRM that Fox was waiting on. But DRM was in the mix from the get go on both formats.

I dunno, it seems to annoy you that bluray is winning, which is odd when you don't own either format. I would think you'd be happy it's all over with. You also seem annoyed with sony for just doing what toshiba was doing, only better. I really don't understand where you are coming from.
Just from what I have read on the topic, HD-DVD still appeared to be the better format... especially in regards to the DRM, and as you have pointed out, it was naturally cheaper in price (other than with Sony's price adjustments to counter this... thus forcing a pricing war between the two.)

And yes, I am happy that it is over, but I'm not really happy with the resulting winner. Kinda like seeing the Patriots win the Superbowl... yeah, it will be over, but we don't like the end result.

NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY THOUGHTS/OPINIONS? Or do we need to keep going back and forth explaining it further?

[cheapie]

is there anything you folks don't know?

[LPMiller]

NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY THOUGHTS/OPINIONS? Or do we need to keep going back and forth explaining it further?

The only reason I keep going is because your opinions keep being factually incorrect, even when I point out those errors, like the just thrown out HD-DVD DRM being better, which runs counter to what I just said. Or your insistence on the DS just because you don't apparently see it happening, which runs counter to what actually does happen.There is no value in embracing an opinion that doesn't match facts at all. But as this is getting no where at all, I'm done.

[DarkFury]

Ok.. whatever you say oh "G|A God of all Technology knowledge"... (my facts are straight based on posted info, however you spun them around to fit your argument and my opinions are still my opinions... whether you accept them or not.)

BTW...Just because the Nintendo DS sold an @ssload of units in Japan and to all of the kids in America and whatnot (the "casual gamers") it's not like there aren't an @ssload of Sony PSPs out there as well (last I checked, NDS was at like 45 million units to Sony's 25 million units.. but that's "worldwide") Still.. I maintain that IN AMERICA, there are lots of "sub-teen kids" and girls buying alot of NDS units. Do YOU yourself own a Nintendo DS? Personally, my son who is 7 does. So "whatever" about your facts and such until you can show me something to the effect of North American demographics to prove your point. We already know that the Japanese market is "different" as compared to ours. Either way, both units make a ton of money for their respective companies and both will continue to survive together on this planet.

Now that being said... this conflict with the DS versus the PSP had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this conversation/thread in general. It was something you pulled out of your collective backside to try to back up the Blu Ray vs HD DVD issue... which still is a totally different combat scenario still. In the HD wars, one will live, the other will die. In the Portable game arena, both can live together appealing to their "niche" markets.. .and yes, the DS is still "niche" even if they sell a ton of units... but it's just a BIGGER niche than who the Sony primarily appeals to.

That is why we keep going around and around on this... Personally, I think you just like arguing with me.

/bow down to LP... NOT! :rolleyes:

[ArkiStan]

I am planning to buy a hi-def player and a LCD TV later this year when I get a job, so needless to say I am very pleased to see the dust finally settling in this stupid format war.

However, after seeing my DVD collection (many of which I haven't even seen yet) sitting in the corner, I'm wondering if I'll ever have the guts to actually start a disc collection again. As we saw in this case, a better format will always appear eventually. And we've had speculations for a long time that everything will become "on-demand" in the future and that physical media will eventuially become obsolete. Part of me is sad, but a smarter part of me is happy that I won't have to go through the financial strain of collecting movies again.

[DarkFury]

ON DEMAND in High Def... FTW! :D

Down with discs... :hihi:

[LPMiller]

Ok.. whatever you say oh "G|A God of all Technology knowledge"... (my facts are straight based on posted info, however you spun them around to fit your argument and my opinions are still my opinions... whether you accept them or not.)

The problem is you seem to equate your opinion with facts. I'm not spinning anything, I'm posting actual facts. You are countering with opinion that flies right in the face of that.


BTW...Just because the Nintendo DS sold an @ssload of units in Japan and to all of the kids in America and whatnot (the "casual gamers") it's not like there aren't an @ssload of Sony PSPs out there as well (last I checked, NDS was at like 45 million units to Sony's 25 million units.. but that's "worldwide") Still.. I maintain that IN AMERICA, there are lots of "sub-teen kids" and girls buying alot of NDS units. Do YOU yourself own a Nintendo DS?

Yes, I do. Red mario kart edition, just finally finished Advance Wars DS. My mom also owns one, in fact the DS has been targeted to the boomer generation with games like Brain Age and Flash Focus.


Personally, my son who is 7 does. So "whatever" about your facts and such until you can show me something to the effect of North American demographics to prove your point. We already know that the Japanese market is "different" as compared to ours. Either way, both units make a ton of money for their respective companies and both will continue to survive together on this planet.

You can't say 'whatever' to facts. Well, you can, but that doesn't actually change them.

From april 2007:

"As for the demographics, an internal Nintendo study shows that DS purchases by women have increased by 42 percent, 127 percent among people age 30 and older and 212 percent among people 35 and older."

On November 2007, it sold 600,000 units the week of black friday.

They sell a DS once every 6 seconds.

Nobody was saying the PSP wasn't selling AT ALL, but 15.2 million units in the US versus 9 is a big difference.

I dunno how many more numbers you need thrown at you, but while kids sure do love them the DS, so too do the adults. It's very mainstream, as much if not more so than the Wii.



Now that being said... this conflict with the DS versus the PSP had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this conversation/thread in general. It was something you pulled out of your collective backside to try to back up the Blu Ray vs HD DVD issue... which still is a totally different combat scenario still. In the HD wars, one will live, the other will die. In the Portable game arena, both can live together appealing to their "niche" markets.. .and yes, the DS is still "niche" even if they sell a ton of units... but it's just a BIGGER niche than who the Sony primarily appeals to.

The original point was that content was king. From the release of Nintendogs, DS had the content well over the PSP. Again, the PSP isn't a failure - it is secure as the number 2, but that was not the original target at all and as being a nintendo killer, it failed in that regard. It had better tech and a much nicer screen and is highly moddable, but it did not have the content. That's changed quite a bit, but it's too late to be number 1.

And again, you don't understand Niche at all. Bluray/HD-DVD is a niche product. Very specialized, only appeals to those that have the ability to use it. Portable game units are mainstream, based on appeal alone, but also on variety of product. Bluray/HD-DVD will stay niche too, until HDTV's reach a hell of a lot more households. Digital Downloads may very well be the real future, but again it will be niche unless and until FIOS broadband is every where.


That is why we keep going around and around on this... Personally, I think you just like arguing with me.

/bow down to LP... NOT! :rolleyes:


No, I don't actually like arguing with you because you act like your worldview is some sort of armor against reality. But I don't actually care if you insist on being wrong, that's your ball of wax, nor do I expect any one any where to bow down before me. I did the research, not my problem you won't read it. You've dropped down to a standardized pattern of response I've gotten used to, given up on argument to resort to ye olden "G/A" tag, which really tells me all I need to know anyway.

[renovation]

the war may not be over just yet - Toshiba Corp cut prices to boster highter sales of HD units today .
personally im not buying blu-ray or hd till all the dusts stop flying .a dvd works just fine for me .and all the movies i want in my collection are still avail. in dvd format. so im happy with dvd's

NEW YORK (AP) - Toshiba Corp. on Monday announced an aggressive campaign to bolster its HD DVD movie disc format against Sony-backed Blu-ray technology, cutting prices on players to as low as $149.99.

The HD DVD camp suffered a serious blow on Jan. 4, when Warner Bros. Entertainment said it would stop publishing movies on HD DVD in May, to focus on Blu-ray and regular DVD.

That leaves only two major studios, Paramount and Universal, still supporting HD DVD, while five support Blu-ray.

Toshiba on Monday slashed the suggested retail price of its cheapest player, the HD-A3, from $299.99 to $149.99. The price for the HD-A30 was also halved, from $399.99 to $199.99, while the price on the high-end HD-A35 went from $499.99 to $299.99.

HD DVD players have been cheaper than Blu-ray players for a while, and sales of standalone players have been strong. But Blu-ray has benefited from Sony's cachet among video enthusiasts, as well as the ability of the PlayStation 3 game console to play Blu-ray discs.

"While price is one of the consideration elements for the early adopter, it is a deal-breaker for the mainstream consumer," said Yoshi Uchiyama, group vice president of digital audio and video at Toshiba America Consumer Products.

Toshiba also said it planned an extended campaign of TV, print and online advertising to promote the format.

The availability of two competing formats - and the confusion and uncertainty it's sowed among buyers - has been widely blamed for the slow adoption of high-definition players in general.

Warner Bros. Entertainment is owned by Time Warner Inc. (TWX)
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080114/D8U5OS9O0.html

[LPMiller]

Looks like a firesale to me.

[DarkFury]

LP's last rant on my previous post... and stuff

OK mang... whatever. Weren't you done and moving on? Guess not.

Pffft.

[zippyjuan]

As far as on demand HD, some have said that HD DVD or BluRay could very well be the final physical media for movies. No more Laser Disc or VHS or Beta- standard DVDs to join them. It may just be a stop- gap technology that only gets limited adoption by the masses. Most right now are perfectly happy with the DVD player they have.

[LPMiller]

whatever makes you feel better, Dark. You don't know what Rant means, either.

[Got Apex Moderator]

OK guys - no need to continue the bickering. Let it drop.

- GAM

[ArkiStan]

Final Thrust of hope? Fire Sale? Well, here's another take on the motives behond Toshiba's unwillingness to throw in the towel:



Toshiba's latest announcement appeared to be aimed at saving face and building a better future bargaining position with Sony, Michael Greeson, president and principal analyst for The Diffusion Group, told InformationWeek.

"You have more negotiating clout if you continue to actively support the HD DVD format," he said. "If you rollover and play dead, then you have no clout."

It's likely that Sony over time would be willing to pay Toshiba to drop HD DVD, so the industry could focus on the one format and end consumer jitters over buying high-definition DVDs and players. The format wars have kept consumers on the sidelines, preferring to wait to see which format wins before investing money in hardware.

In addition, Toshiba could also negotiate to get some revenue from future Blu-ray-related sales by getting some of its intellectual property into future versions of the technology, Greeson said.

"In the end, you're going to see a pretty big check from Sony to drop the (HD DVD) format," the analyst said. "It's in Sony's interest to get this over with as quickly as possible."

In the meantime, Toshiba is unlikely to get much more than lukewarm support from retailers, since it would be unfair to tell a customer to buy a player that has less content available than its competitor. "It's difficult to rationalize that you're being fair to the customer, if you don't tell them that the content advantage is clearly with Blu-ray," Greeson said.

link to full article:
http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=205604607

[ArkiStan]

OK guys - no need to continue the bickering. Let it drop.

- GAM

Please tell that to LPMiller and Dark Fury as well.
Thank you.

- arkistan

;)

[DarkFury]

An interesting thought comes to mind...

Why when companies like Microsoft and Intel try to "buy" their way into market dominance through exclusive liscensing with OEMs and distributors, do they get the "anti-trust" and other legal issue smackdown? But Sony (and Toshiba) seem that they can buy "exclusive agreements" to control the distribution market for entertainment media?

Are the rules different for media companies and format wars like this?


--------------------------------

Also Arki, we got the message... and did not need your assitance in expanding on what GAM said. Thanks anyways for your participation.

The above thoughts (above the previous dashes) are targeted to no particular person on this board, but are made in general as to our "American way" of deciding who and what can and can't do business... and to consumerism of letting us really make a choice instead of getting monopolized by the financial giants in making those decisions for us.

In the end, this all just looks like Sony's "payback" to the consumers of this country for the Betamax fiasco back in the day. I'm sure that they are laughin' out loud as we speak. :laugh: :D