REALLY want to be green? Don't buy a hybrid

[Jeffbx]

...buy a used car instead:


As Matt Power notes in this month's issue of Wired, hybrids get great gas mileage but it takes 113 million BTUs of energy to make a Toyota Prius. Because there are about 113,000 BTUs of energy in a gallon of gasoline, the Prius has consumed the equivalent of 1,000 gallons of gasoline before it reaches the showroom. Think of it as a carbon debt -- one you won't pay off until the Prius has turned over 46,000 miles or so.

There's an easy way to avoid that debt -- buy a used car. The debt has already been paid. But not just any used car will do.

It has to be something fuel efficient. Like, say, a 1998 Toyota Tercel that gets 27 mpg city / 35 mpg highway miles. The Prius will have to go 100,000 miles to achieve the same carbon savings as the 10-year-old Tercel. Get behind the wheel of a 1994 Geo Metro XFi, which matches the Prius' 46 mpg, and the Prius would never close the carbon gap, Power writes.


Hahaha - I'm going to start giving dirty looks to Prius owners for being irresponsible.

Full article at Wired.com (http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/05/the-ultimate-pr.html)

[mojo]

i also heard that when the batteries on many hybrids need to be replaced, they just total out the car. the batteries are so expensive that they exceed the value of the car. this supposedly happens in about 5 years.

[DarkFury]

i also heard that when the batteries on many hybrids need to be replaced, they just total out the car. the batteries are so expensive that they exceed the value of the car. this supposedly happens in about 5 years.
Oh that makes it a deal breaker in a big way...

BTW... WHY are the freakin' batteries so dayuum expensive?

[Prngr44]

I thought they've made such huge strides in the batteries they run on this kind of thing doesn't happen anymore??

I don't have a link, but recall my boss (who drives a Prius) making that comment.

[Markel]

I don't have a link, but recall my boss (who drives a Prius) making that comment.
The glass is half full! The glass IS half FULL! :heh:

[mojo]

Oh that makes it a deal breaker in a big way...

BTW... WHY are the freakin' batteries so dayuum expensive?
i checked my figures, and it seems they should last 8-10 years (so they say). should still be about $3k tho. and until they've been out a while, it may just be a big YMMV.

[Chgoman]

Here's the scoop on the batteries (I own a Prius so I've followed it). They currently cost about $3K to replace, but by the time most need to be replaced, the cost will likely be much lower. The batteries are warrantied for 10 years, but expected to last much longer. It's acutally most a factor of distance than time as the age of the battery isn't nearly as important as how much it's been discharged and recharged. On that front, there are tens of thousands of Prius's that have been around in Japan for 10 years and the failure rate of the batteries have been negligable. There are also many Prius's that have been used as Taxi's and have put 200-300K miles on them which would 'age' the batteries like a car driven for 15-20 years and they have had no problem with the batteries.

The reality is noone knows how long the battery packs will last, but from usage reports, in most cases, it will probably be the life of the car.

[attgig]

+ maitenance costs of a 10-15 year old car... right....
+ safety of getting into a tercel/metro.
or if u have kids squeezing into and out of a tercel? it would kinda suck

[Showtime]

I'd buy a regular civic or fit etc, before paying the premium for the hybrids. 5k+ worth of gas will surely offset most of the mileage over the life of the car.

[Chgoman]

It depends on what you want though. Everyone compares the Prius to the subcompacts, but it only has a slightly smaller interior than the Camary, and actually becuase it is a hatch back, you can store a lot more in it than the Camary. I wouldn't pay the premium for any other hybrid that is based on a regular model either. In my case, I bought the Prius right when the new model came out and paying $21K for a car that is equipped with a high end GPS system, voice activation, Keyless entry and start off the Lexus and a Premium sound system wasn't a bad deal, especially when you took into account the tax incentives at the time as well. Add to that the carpool lane stickers that save us a ton of time living in Orange county and it was really a steal.

The other day I did the math and in the 4-5 years we've been driving the Prius and averaging about 46 miles to the gallon, we've saved around $5K in gas in just that time (living in Southern California where gas expensive adds the the savings pretty fast). Since we'll keep it for at least another 5 years, it'll have saved us a ton over the life of the car.

It's not for everyone, but for some people it really does make sense.

[Daedalus]

If I got 45mpg I would save about $1200/year with gas @ $4/gallon. I've done the math and I figure my breaking point is $15/gallon which, at the current trajectory, will happen within 9 years. Plenty of evidence to suggest it will happen sooner though, maybe within 4-6 years. I suspect the next vehicle I purchase will be all electric. 2 cents/mile FTW!

[Cubsfan]

If I got 45mpg I would save about $1200/year with gas @ $4/gallon. I've done the math and I figure my breaking point is $15/gallon which, at the current trajectory, will happen within 9 years. Plenty of evidence to suggest it will happen sooner though, maybe within 4-6 years. I suspect the next vehicle I purchase will be all electric. 2 cents/mile FTW!

Break even from what? Not buying a car? Yeah, I think that buying it to replace your current car isn't going to be worth it.

But, like Chgoman said, it's closer to a Camry/Accord than a Corolla/Civic. Overall, if I had it to do over again, I'd probably buy a Prius over my Altima.

[Chgoman]

It will be interesting to see what the stats are on the next Prius coming out soon. It's going to have a slighly redesigned front and back and give both more power and better mileage than the current model.

[LPMiller]

I'm going to make a few points here:

1)While yes, it's LIKE having consumed 1,000 gallons of gas before you get the car, it's not in fact ACTUALLY consuming gas, it's consuming energy. There is a difference. Perhaps a slight one, but it's there.

2) While yes, ye olden metros and tercels get great gas millage, they also have much worse safety standards. Those cars were only possible because of lower safety requirements. Having seen first hand what happens when a Ford Festiva hits a Geo Metro head on, I'll take the Toyota.

A lot of these little articles try to make things so cut and dried, but they really aren't. For one thing, even if it takes 46,000 miles to make up your 'carbon debt', that only means it's smooth sailing after that, and a hybrid buyer is also more likely to drive it for 100,000 miles or more. so I don't even see the argument there. And saying an old car doesn't have a carbon debt is in comparison doesn't take into account those cars will pollute higher, don't have the pollution management systems of a prius, and in that regard have a higher 'footprint', later in their life cycle. It's all sort of relative.

[Yossarian]

i don't fit in any of the cars mentioned.............i'll stick with the pimpala

[eSDee]

I'm going to buy an Altima Hybrid probably this Friday. Like a few have said there is fault in the logic of the article. The reason it took so much energy to build each hybrid is because they are not mass produced like all other combustion engine vehicles. However, the more hybrids that are purchased the more that they'll make. The demand goes up, the production improves, and the cost per car in energy will go down greatly. So the question for me now is, pay more money and give it to the company that is encouraging greener technology, or wait around and end up paying that same money to the oil companies. I'd rather pay for innovation.

[ramazank2]

i don't fit in any of the cars mentioned.............i'll stick with the pimpala


I get rental cars all the time and the impala is the worst car ever. It drives like a rock and gets ~10 mpg. Who would buy such a piece of crap?

Note: I actually like american cars but the Impala is horrible...

[DarkFury]

i don't fit in any of the cars mentioned.............i'll stick with the pimpala
Amen to that...

Anyone see a hybrid 300C in the future? :D

[Daedalus]

Break even from what? Not buying a car? Yeah, I think that buying it to replace your current car isn't going to be worth it.

$15/gallon is the point at which I would trade in one of my cars for a more energy efficient one. It would certainly make financial sense at that point. I currently use 500 gallons of gas per year. If I traded in my 15mpg car for a 45mpg car I would save over $400/month @ $15/gal, which could easily cover the payment for a good efficient car, not to mention the cheaper maintenance and insurance costs vs. any of my current cars.

[InfiniteNothing]

46,000 miles

I suppose most people just throw the car away after that?

[Showtime]

Interesting. What about that giant battery in hybrids? Is it as bad as some say? Does it pollute more or less than the extra mileage it gets?


I'm going to make a few points here:

1)While yes, it's LIKE having consumed 1,000 gallons of gas before you get the car, it's not in fact ACTUALLY consuming gas, it's consuming energy. There is a difference. Perhaps a slight one, but it's there.

2) While yes, ye olden metros and tercels get great gas millage, they also have much worse safety standards. Those cars were only possible because of lower safety requirements. Having seen first hand what happens when a Ford Festiva hits a Geo Metro head on, I'll take the Toyota.

A lot of these little articles try to make things so cut and dried, but they really aren't. For one thing, even if it takes 46,000 miles to make up your 'carbon debt', that only means it's smooth sailing after that, and a hybrid buyer is also more likely to drive it for 100,000 miles or more. so I don't even see the argument there. And saying an old car doesn't have a carbon debt is in comparison doesn't take into account those cars will pollute higher, don't have the pollution management systems of a prius, and in that regard have a higher 'footprint', later in their life cycle. It's all sort of relative.

[DarkFury]

I suppose most people just throw the car away after that?
I don't...

Every car I buy, I'm with for the "long haul" unless it does something to warrant its removal.

[Cubsfan]

$15/gallon is the point at which I would trade in one of my cars for a more energy efficient one. It would certainly make financial sense at that point. I currently use 500 gallons of gas per year. If I traded in my 15mpg car for a 45mpg car I would save over $400/month @ $15/gal, which could easily cover the payment for a good efficient car, not to mention the cheaper maintenance and insurance costs vs. any of my current cars.

Right, I'd say you're totally correct here. I doubt there's many scenarios where it would be worth it to buy a hybrid instead of keeping your already paid off one. However, at least for me, it's a different comparison if I'm already planning on getting a new car. In that case, it may be a $350 Camry payment vs. a $400 Prius payment, or something like that.

[Chgoman]

Everyones comparison is different. At the time I was buying, strangely enough my choice was between a Prius and a Mid-sized SUV. They each met my needs in different ways. So in my case it was actually comaring a 46MPG car vs a 18MPG SUV. Obviously that's not going to be everyone's comparison, but for me that was it. In this case, buying the Prius has actually saved me about $8K in gas over the 80,000 miles we've driven it so far.

If you don't drive much, hybrids don't make sense at all, if you do a lot of drivining, it may make sense. Eventually when they get the economies of scale working and the premium is say $1K, and when they start putting hybrid systems on any trim package hybrids will make more sense. The biggest detraction to hybrids right now is that they generally only offer the hybrid systems on the loaded models. If you'd already buy the loaded model, thats fine, but if you are looking at an entry or mid ranged model, you have to pay a few thousand dollars for features you don't want and then a few thousand more for the hybrid system and that just makes no financial sense.

[DarkFury]

Here is an interesting article on what some people are doing to combat rising gas prices:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/05/20/geo.metro/index.html

[InfiniteNothing]

Interesting. What about that giant battery in hybrids? Is it as bad as some say? Does it pollute more or less than the extra mileage it gets?
I've never understood the concerns over batteries. Hazardous materials are rather valuable and can usually be recovered for a profit. Acids can be neutralized without much harm.

[mechmike0034]

I get rental cars all the time and the impala is the worst car ever. It drives like a rock and gets ~10 mpg. Who would buy such a piece of crap?

Note: I actually like american cars but the Impala is horrible...

Gotta golden shovel this one, as my experience has been quite different from what you describe...

I have a 2008 Impala LT with the base 3.5 V6 for a company car:

http://s92425274.onlinehome.us/wsc92425264/Linked/combined.jpg

I took the above pictures of the Driver Info Center display today. For the last ~4300 miles I have averaged ~52 MPH and 27 MPG. This is driving normally, not hypermiling nor hammering on the car. Drove 400 miles today and I don't feel like I was beaten with a stick.

I find this damned respectable considering this is what passes for a full-size car in this day and time. The Impala is firmer than my Caddy but quite comfortable.