Vehicle Maintenance Question

[guiseppewv]

I know MechMike will know the answer to this but if anyone else does please lend a hand. :)

I have a 1994 Accord (VTEC 4 cyl) with ~195000 miles on it. I need to replace the timing belt. I replaced the head gasket and what not about 70k miles ago, so I feel I have average shade-tree mechanic skills. How difficult is it to change the belt? Is there anything else (e.g. water pump, crankshaft and camshaft seals, seal retainer, etc...) I should replace at the same time while I am in there?

I am debating on if I should take it to a shop or replace it myself.

Thanks in advance! :wavey2:

[uncledaddy]

The VTEC is an interference engine. You may want to replace the water pump just to be on the safe side. It is recommended by Honda to be replaced at the same time as the belt. Also if you feel that you can pull the old seals safely without scoring the shafts by all means do so, they are also recommended at the same time. The job is not that difficult, but be careful because even with the engine set to TDC on #1, once you loosen the tensioner, the cam sprockets will move. Unless you're very comfortable with a twin cam timing belt replacement, you may want an extra set of hands to help hold things in place. I've done many, so they are easy to me.

Just be careful. Like I say, it is an interference engine. If the cams and crank gears get set too far off, you risk bending valves on the first crank of the engine.

[uncledaddy]

Forgot, if that is the original timing belt tensioner pulley, change it too.

Also, if its been 70,000+ miles on the drive belts, might change them too since they have to be removed. Saves the labor later down the line.

[clutchy]

i do alot of maintenance myself, but i won't do that.

as daddy said above it's an interference engine which means bent valves if you get it wrong...

if it was a toyota i might try it they don't run interference engines as i understand it.

[guiseppewv]

No worries about the interference engine; I knew that. :) I had to remove a good bit of that stuff when I did a head job :heh: on the Honda a few years ago. Do you think if I take it someplace and have them do all of it that I will get cut a break since they have to remove all that stuff anyways in order to replace the timing belt?

[clutchy]

it depends i'd call around. Honda's aren't difficult to work on so i would think not.

[mechmike0034]

Replacing the seals is the tough part. UD hit it right on the head otherwise - do the tensioner and water pump while you're there.

[uncledaddy]

No worries about the interference engine; I knew that. :) I had to remove a good bit of that stuff when I did a head job :heh: on the Honda a few years ago. Do you think if I take it someplace and have them do all of it that I will get cut a break since they have to remove all that stuff anyways in order to replace the timing belt?

Most good honest places will give you a labor quote for a timing belt/water pump replacement and just charge extra for the additional parts that you wish to replace such as drive belts and tensioner pulley. Others may pad and charge an additional .o5-.2 hour for doing each seal or tensioner because labor guides allow for this.

The crank seal is usually no prob. because with the front mount removed, the engine will drop down low enough to access strait through the wheel well, but the cam seals can be harder, depending on what's in the way, such as the strut tower, preventing strait access. It gets harder to tap that new intake cam seal into place. The water pump and tensioner are just a little more difficult because of the inner fender, but you still have room to work. Just not quite a strait shot at them. So these points may determine how a shop will charge.

[guiseppewv]

I think I changed the crank and cam seals when I did the head job. That was completed 70k miles ago. What do you think, should I have them replaced again?

[uncledaddy]

I would change them. Consider this. If you wait until the next 60-70,000 miles to change them again,(and if you keep the vehicle that long), they will have between 130-140,000 miles of wear by that time. They can possibly make it that long, but why take the chance. The seals are like $6 each and take only about 10 minutes extra per seal to replace.

[guiseppewv]

Alright, so I got two quotes. One from a place I know is a reputable place and the other from a place that a couple of very close friends recommeded. One place gave me a quote of $370 +/- $20. This includes the seals, the H2O pump, the balance shaft belt, and timing belt. The other place quoted me $947 for the all of the aforementioned and the A/C and P/S drive belts. One factor in the price difference is the inclusion of the two other drive belts and the other is the fact that one is charging DC labor rates and the other is charging WV labor rates. Let me know what you all think. Thanks! :)

[mechmike0034]

Alright, so I got two quotes. One from a place I know is a reputable place and the other from a place that a couple of very close friends recommeded. One place gave me a quote of $370 +/- $20. This includes the seals, the H2O pump, the balance shaft belt, and timing belt. The other place quoted me $947 for the all of the aforementioned and the A/C and P/S drive belts. One factor in the price difference is the inclusion of the two other drive belts and the other is the fact that one is charging DC labor rates and the other is charging WV labor rates. Let me know what you all think. Thanks! :)

That is a ton of difference. If I could get it done by a competent tech using good quality parts for ~$400 I'd go for it. $947 sounds really high, unless you fat-fingered the number...

[guiseppewv]

The $947 is the accurate price. I am thinking the ~$370 price is going to go up when I request they use all genuine Honda parts. The place that cost $370 is a very reliable and reputable place; I have used them many times. They used to let me bring in my own parts but people kept bring in crap used parts that caused them all kinds of grief and cut into their profit margins, so they stopped allowing that.

Edit: I was shocked at the $947.76 number too.

[mechmike0034]

The $947 is the accurate price. I am thinking the ~$370 price is going to go up when I request they use all genuine Honda parts. The place that cost $370 is a very reliable and reputable place; I have used them many times. They used to let me bring in my own parts but people kept bring in crap used parts that caused them all kinds of grief and cut into their profit margins, so they stopped allowing that.

Genuine Honda is not necessarily all that. Honda doesn't make their own seals and belts - they're sourced from someone else. A factory water pump's probably not a bad idea tho.

If you know them and have a history - tell them to go for it and use their judgment on the parts. They have to stand behind it.

[guiseppewv]

So, the standard belts and seals from advance auto or napa are fine? I'll make sure they use a Honda water pump.

[mechmike0034]

So, the standard belts and seals from advance auto or napa are fine? I'll make sure they use a Honda water pump.

Yeah, just use a brand name...

[uncledaddy]

Yeah, just use a brand name...

Agreed. Gates, very good brand. As is Goodyear.

[mcs328]

I just came back from getting my 195K scheduled maintenance on my 99 Honda Civic for less than $300 at the dealership. hmmmm

[Daedalus]

There's a 195k scheduled maintenance? What did it include?

[guiseppewv]

Good, question. Most everything should have been taken care of at 180k.

[mcs328]

Hmm...looks like I got taken for a good ride. At 195K it's your routine oil change plus inspecting everything in your car isn't falling apart. $104/hour and it took 1.5 hours. Total cost was $230.84.

Usually I just take it to Jiffy Lube but my owners manual and the owners circle stops telling me what kind of service I need after I think 150K. It looks like from the bill I need A and B service.

I think my wife got the same thing to the tune of $300+ since we did both our cars the same day. She has 30K on her '05 Honda Accord we bought Honda Certified Pre-Owned used in March when her used 95 Chevy Cavalier busted a piston head and the engine block.

So $600 for two oil changes at the dealership. I know I know. We paid 10x the amount but at least I take my cars in faithfully when it the times come. Her family doesn't do anything at all. And every few years they get a new or used car because the previous one blows up. They are amazed mine is almost 10 years old and runs like new. It's my first car I owned since I graduated and I've kept every single bill for everything I've done on it.

So anyways, anyone approaching 195K just go to Jiffy Lube or change the oil yourself. You can learn from me. =)

[guiseppewv]

I think you can start over in the owners manual (e.g. look at the owners manual for 15k at 165k, etc...). I am not sure exactly how they match up but I am sure MM or UD will know.

We all make mistakes like you did; the key is to learn from them! :)

[uncledaddy]

Just maintain the oil change and inspection intervals at 3,000 mi. and remember to keep track of timing belt replacement mileages. Replace plugs, cap and rotor at 60,000 mile intervals. Most other services done beyond manufacturer/dealer warranty period and the last manufacturer recommendation can be done as needed during routine inspection.

Also, remember, even during warranty periods, you can have all recommended services done anywhere you'd like, (whichever is least expensive), as long as records are kept and the warranty will still be effective.