I must have been naughty this year! (Car issues)

[Jcranmer]

Well I would have rather had the lump of coal in my stocking, but Santa opted for something a little more devious this year. Have I ever mentioned that I really dislike holidays in general?

I had to work yesterday, that it itself should have been enough punishment for the year, but once I got back to the car and got it started things got even worse.

The car started and sounded just fine, until I put it into gear. As soon as I let off the brake (It's an auto), the engine started stumbling and hesitating and the check engine light on. It's running so rough that I can't even attempt to drive it to home (A full hour away). When I try to move it the engine generally just dies.

I did what all guys do, I turned it off, popped open the hood, and pretended l had any idea what all that stuff is under the hood these days. (I really hate modern cars!)

I normally carry a code reader with me in this car. Although I've not had too many issues with my own cars, I have used it a few times to help diagnose issues with friends cars. Of course I didn't have it with me this time, I had taken it out some time ago and put it in my toolbox, at the house.

So I finally gave up and called my wife to come pick me up. I didn't figure I could get it towed on Christmas eve, so I just left it there.

So I spent this morning, Christmas Day, back at my office, with the code reader in hand. All the time thinking "I'm not even supposed to be here today!

Here are the details:
2001 Hyundai Santa Fe V6 / Auto

OBDC Diag Codes:
P0302: Cylinder #2 Misfire Detected
P0305: Cylinder #5 Misfire Detected
P0300: Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected

I've done some research today and found that this can be caused by anything from bad plugs, wires, or several sensors. I think it's unlikely that it's more then one plug or wire though, since it just started. While it could be a sensor or even fuel injector issues, I am thinking my timing belt might have slipped.

Any mechanics out there want to give me your opinion? I'm still trying to figure out if I have a timing belt or chain. From reading, I think the 2.4 liter model has a belt, while the 3.3 has a chain. I'm assuming that chains don't slip?? The problem is I don't know which engine I have in there. And since the car is still at work, I'm not going to find out today.

Bah Humbug :cheers:

(Extra credit given for anyone getting my movie quote)

[Jcranmer]

I checked the dealer website and it looks like the info I had was incorrect. The only V6 made in 2001 is a 2.7L and it uses a timing belt, not a chain.

[Hoser]

The movie quote is from Clerks. (I'm not even supposed to be here today!)

I just had a $1400 repair bill on my car, so I know how you feel. It's like the car knew I had some extra money and wanted to relieve me of it.

[uncledaddy]

Well, because of the random misfires, it's doubtful to be plugs, wires or coils. Could be anything, you should have it diagnosed by a professional if you are unable to diagnose or you risk throwing parts at it.

[Daedalus]

I assume it still stumbles when in park/neutral. The problem is affecting multiple cylinders, so I agree it's unlikely to be plugs, wires or injectors, which typically go out one at a time. It's also affecting both engine banks, so it's unlikely to be O2 sensors, plus the symptoms are too extreme. Timing belt is a possibility, though when they go they usually just break rather than skip. How many miles on the car? I'm thinking that the fuel pump is another possibility. Make sure the cable to the throttle valve isn't broken. If you try to rev the car in park does it respond or die?

Edit: D'oh Uncle Daddy beat me to it!

[uncledaddy]

I assume it still stumbles when in park/neutral. The problem is affecting multiple cylinders, so I agree it's unlikely to be plugs, wires or injectors, which typically go out one at a time. It's also affecting both engine banks, so it's unlikely to be O2 sensors, plus the symptoms are too extreme. Timing belt is a possibility, though when they go they usually just break rather than skip. How many miles on the car? I'm thinking that the fuel pump is another possibility. Make sure the cable to the throttle valve isn't broken. If you try to rev the car in park does it respond or die?

Edit: D'oh Uncle Daddy beat me to it!

I was headed to the same thoughts as you, but decided I just recommend a pro diagnoses lest I get Jcranmer to replace something that doesn't fix the problem. :D

I've had these symptoms caused by fuel pressures, cam sensors, vacuum leaks, valves that have damaged seats....you name it.

[Jcranmer]

Thanks guys. I had it towed to the dealer today and they are saying it's the coil pack. Of course they also are stating that several plugs are fouled due to leaking value cover gaskets. (Not sure on this, not much of a car guy, but can't picture how this would cause plug fouling issues.)

Grand total: $850.00

New Coil pack
New plugs
New wires
Valve cover gaskets

I really don't buy the plugs / wires are to blame, but they have been in the car for at least 50K miles if not more, so I'm going to go ahead and let them change them out. I would do it myself, but the way this engine it setup you have to pull the intake (and replace the gasket) to get to the rear 3 plugs. It's a real pain in the backside for me to do.

On top of it, the "reasonable" priced tow service that the dealer recommended, charged me something like $75.00 for 10 - 15 miles.

They did also want to replace the timing belt and water pump for an additional $900.00. This is not because it's actually bad, just because of the millage.

I told them to hold off on doing the timing belt for now. I know the risk if it breaks, but just can't do both right now. So hopefully I'll get the car back Monday afternoon.

I thought I had included the millage in the original post, but it looks like I omitted it. The car has around 145K on it and the original belt was replaced at the recommended 60K interval, so it's overdue to be replaced.

And yes it was continuing to stumble once put back in park and in neutral. I was thinking perhaps the initial torque of putting it into gear might have caused it to break a tooth on the belt and slip.

[uncledaddy]

Thanks guys. I had it towed to the dealer today and they are saying it's the coil pack. Of course they also are stating that several plugs are fouled due to leaking value cover gaskets. (Not sure on this, not much of a car guy, but can't picture how this would cause plug fouling issues.)

Grand total: $850.00

New Coil pack
New plugs
New wires
Valve cover gaskets

I really don't buy the plugs / wires are to blame, but they have been in the car for at least 50K miles if not more, so I'm going to go ahead and let them change them out. I would do it myself, but the way this engine it setup you have to pull the intake (and replace the gasket) to get to the rear 3 plugs. It's a real pain in the backside for me to do.

On top of it, the "reasonable" priced tow service that the dealer recommended, charged me something like $75.00 for 10 - 15 miles.

They did also want to replace the timing belt and water pump for an additional $900.00. This is not because it's actually bad, just because of the millage.

I told them to hold off on doing the timing belt for now. I know the risk if it breaks, but just can't do both right now. So hopefully I'll get the car back Monday afternoon.

I thought I had included the millage in the original post, but it looks like I omitted it. The car has around 145K on it and the original belt was replaced at the recommended 60K interval, so it's overdue to be replaced.

And yes it was continuing to stumble once put back in park and in neutral. I was thinking perhaps the initial torque of putting it into gear might have caused it to break a tooth on the belt and slip.

Ah, coil pack. I thought that the Santa Fe had one coil per cylinder. :D

[Daedalus]

I assumed it too. It looks like there is a single pack with 3 coils, so having both 2 and 5 go out makes sense, since it looks like they use the same coil, based on firing order.

I have been told the same thing about plug fouling and leaking VC gaskets. I don't know if I buy it. Oil leaks down onto the spark plug, but there is a crushable washer between the plug seat and the head. If oil can leak down past this seal, then how could it possbly seal in the combustion pressures? Wouldn't the extremely hot combustion gasses be blowing out of the plug hole?

[Jcranmer]

The movie quote is from Clerks. (I'm not even supposed to be here today!)


Yep! We have a winner. :D

I guess it's time to spend the weekend watching some Kevin Smith flicks again.

[Jcranmer]

I assumed it too. It looks like there is a single pack with 3 coils, so having both 2 and 5 go out makes sense, since it looks like they use the same coil, based on firing order.

I have been told the same thing about plug fouling and leaking VC gaskets. I don't know if I buy it. Oil leaks down onto the spark plug, but there is a crushable washer between the plug seat and the head. If oil can leak down past this seal, then how could it possbly seal in the combustion pressures? Wouldn't the extremely hot combustion gasses be blowing out of the plug hole?

The fact that 2 and 5 share a coil, puts by mind at ease, at least a little bit. My only other experience with this dealership was a bad one. I only went back there this time because it was the closest to where the car broke down.

I wish I knew more about cars. I've never been a big do it your self type of person when it come to cars, but at least 20 years ago I could identify just about everything under the hood.

Today I'm lucky to find the air filter. :D

The nice thing about Hyundai is that anyone can get all the service manuals free online, directly from Hyundai. (http://hmaservice.com IE Only, Firefox has issues)

I'm never been able to do all that with any other car I've owned before.

[mechmike0034]

As stated, leaky valve cover gaskets won't foul the firing end of the plugs directly, but, in some cases, hot oil leaking onto plug boots or plug wires can cause physical deterioration. This can cause misfire by allowing ignition secondary voltage to "leak" or arc to ground via the damaged boot or wire.

[mechmike0034]

The nice thing about Hyundai is that anyone can get all the service manuals free online, directly from Hyundai. (http://hmaservice.com IE Only, Firefox has issues)

I'm never been able to do all that with any other car I've owned before.

Kia also offers online service info for free.

All manufacturers offer service information for about the last ten model years or so online, but most charge for it. On the other hand, there are pricing structures for daily and weekly access.

For example, Honda/Acura access is $10 for 72 hours.

Here is the pricing matrix and links to the various sites: http://nastf.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3291

[Jcranmer]

As stated, leaky valve cover gaskets won't foul the firing end of the plugs directly, but, in some cases, hot oil leaking onto plug boots or plug wires can cause physical deterioration. This can cause misfire by allowing ignition secondary voltage to "leak" or arc to ground via the damaged boot or wire.

Oh! I get that and had they explained it that way I wouldn't even have questioned it. Oil on parts of the electrical system can cause all kinds of issues. It's just not what I think of when someone says plug fouling.