Brake Pads

[guiseppewv]

So, I need to change the brakes on my sister's car but the brake pads I always use, Performance Friction Carbon Metallic (PFCM), are not made for her car. Does anyone have a suggestion on another brand?

I am really disappointed that I cannot get the PFCM pads for her car. I really love those pads. They are pretty decent wrt brake dust, have great stopping power, low chance of brake fade, and seem to last forever. Awesome pads.

Also, I am going to use Bendix rotors, mainly because I always use them and they are great rotors. Does anyone suggest I use a different brand of rotor?

Thanks in advance. :wavey2: :)

[mechmike0034]

Got|Year/Make/Model/Engine size?

Is your sister a "performance" driver, or more of a commuter?

[guiseppewv]

Got|Year/Make/Model/Engine size?

Is your sister a "performance" driver, or more of a commuter?

'03 Accord EX/4 cyl.

Sister is more of commuter but she likes the brake feel on my car. I have the PFCM pads on both of my cars. She definitely does not want or need cross drilled or slotted rotors.

[uncledaddy]

Maybe try a set of PBR Ceramics. Is there a reason for changing the rotors? If she is pretty much a commuter, just machine the existing ones. Hondas have pretty good stock rotors. I would use them, but I've had to turn Bendix rotors out of the box. But that can happen to just about any brand.

[guiseppewv]

Let's just say that she has used the existing pads a little too long. The rotors have already been turned once; they really need to be replaced.

Why do you reco PBR Ceramics? I mean their beer isn't any good, are their brake pads better? ;) :D

[Nija]

Why do you reco PBR Ceramics? I mean their beer isn't any good, are their brake pads better? ;) :D
:disa:

So bad, and yet I still lol'd.

[guiseppewv]

:disa:

So bad, and yet I still lol'd.

As long as I get one person to laugh, I consider it a successful joke! I think I need more people like you in the audience when I crack jokes. :)

[mechmike0034]

'03 Accord EX/4 cyl.

Sister is more of commuter but she likes the brake feel on my car. I have the PFCM pads on both of my cars. She definitely does not want or need cross drilled or slotted rotors.

Pads: ACDelco DuraStop 17D914C (http://198.208.187.182/internet/PartImage.jsp?mfgname=ACDELCO&prodlinecd=14&acpartnbr=17D914C)

Ceramics are OE and recommended replacement for this vehicle, though there is a semi-metallic (17D914M) available. Semi-mets are noisier but will give longer life and better performance in extreme conditions.

These pads are independently certified by Greening Labs to meet or exceed OE stopping performance.

Rotors: ACDelco DuraStop 18A912 (http://198.208.187.182/internet/PartImage.jsp?mfgname=ACDELCO&prodlinecd=14&acpartnbr=18A912)

Slotted are also available - these are directional - 18A1562 (http://198.208.187.182/internet/PartImage.jsp?mfgname=ACDELCO&prodlinecd=14&acpartnbr=18A1562) is the driver's side, 18A1563 is the passenger's side...

Available online... (http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/b2c/catalog_search.php)

[mojo]

:disa:

So bad, and yet I still lol'd.
you know, there was a time that that was one of the better beers out there

[Daedalus]

Let's just say that she has used the existing pads a little too long. The rotors have already been turned once; they really need to be replaced.

Considering the cost you should confirm that first. Typically rotors allow for nearly .100" of wear and machining. Depending on condition they may only take off .010-.030" each time they turn them. I use a cheapo digital caliper to measure mine. You can pick one up for less than $20 probably. Also, it costs more, but a dial indicator is easy to use and will tell you if the rotors are warped or not. A factory service manual (look online for free downloads) will give you allowable limits for rotor thickness and runout.

[guiseppewv]

MechMike - Thank you for the information. Have you ever used the PFCM pads?

Daedalus - thank you for the input. I did not realize that rotors could be machined more than once. I personally change my rotors out everytime because it cost more to have them machined by someone else.

[Daedalus]

Maybe shop around some. My local Pep Boys will turn rotors for $10 each (I admit I don't understand how they make any money off it, considering the cost of the machine and how long it takes). Of course the benefit depends on what the rotor costs. The cheapest rotors I can live with on my 4000lb sedan cost $60 each. Rotors for a lighter car ought to cost less.

[guiseppewv]

I never went to a Pep Boys to have rotors turned but I have asked a few shops and it was always expensive. Thanks for the tip on Pep Boys. I will try them next time. Do you have to pull them off the car to get that deal or can they do that with them on the car?

[mechmike0034]

MechMike - Thank you for the information. Have you ever used the PFCM pads?

Once, on a Chevy pickup. With the vehicle moderately loaded, they caused constant ABS activation at the lightest pedal pressure... I replaced the pads with DuraStop and cured this behavior...

There are some things to consider about rotor machining. Firstly, I am of the opinion that 90% of the so-called "technicians" who attempt rotor machining screw them up. Surface finish and quality are very important. I personally wouldn't pay some chain-store flunky $10 each to screw up my rotors, but that's just me... Yes, I realize that there are competent techs out there who can machine rotors and give them the proper surface finish, but the chances of epic fail are high. Ask the next brake tech you see when the last time his brake lathe was cleaned, and when the last time was that the arbors and lathe shaft runout were all checked and the cutting bits were changed...

Secondly, there is no reason to machine rotors as a matter of course when changing pads. Rotors should only be machined when they are scored in excess of .060" or to correct lateral runout in excess of .002" (and only when machining would not leave the rotor thinner than minimum thickness spec...)

When you machine a rotor, you remove metal from it, which reduces the rotor's mass, which decreases the rotor's heat transfer capability. After all, brakes work by converting the kinetic energy of the vehicle in motion to heat, which has to be dissipated somehow...

They're cheap, even at $60 per... If there's any doubt, replace them with good quality parts and be done with it!

[Daedalus]

Sorry I should have been more clear. The $10 price applies to carry-in rotors only.

I've never had a problem with a Pep Boys turn, other than them once taking off too much, and a couple times trying to convince me the rotor is too thin to turn (so I could buy new ones instead). I do check runout after installation, and the finish is always smooth. I've had at least a dozen rotors turned over the years, split across 3 Pep Boys locations.



Rotors should only be machined when they are scored in excess of .060"
.060? ~1/16 of an inch?

or to correct lateral runout in excess of .002"
That sounds pretty tight for most cars. I'll have to check, but I don't think any of my cars require runout that tight nominally.

[mechmike0034]

Those specs are from GM TSB #00-05-22-002K, which is 21 pages of Disc Brake service procedures and warranty policies.

Excessive lateral runout (LRO) (over .002") will not show as brake pulsation during a post-brake service test drive.

It will cause the brake pads to wear the brake rotors unevenly over time and
miles (as the high spot or spots "smack" the stationary brake pad with each rotor revolution) which causes rotor thickness variation. Pulsation from excessive LRO usually takes 3,000 - 10,000 miles to develop, and the more excessive the LRO, the faster the pulsation develops.

[Daedalus]

The .060 deep scoring just doesn't pass the sniff test. If I can feel it with my fingernail, it's too deep, and .060 is at least 10x beyond that point. Or is the .060 the width of the scoring on the face of the rotor? Maybe I'm interpreting it incorrectly. The .002 runout can be achieved, but just seems really tight. That pretty much mandates turning the rotor every time, doesn't it? My Infinitis have a limit of .0028 and my Dodge and Acura both allow .004 max. Is that TSB for a particular model, or across all GM product lines?

[mechmike0034]

The .060 deep scoring just doesn't pass the sniff test. If I can feel it with my fingernail, it's too deep, and .060 is at least 10x beyond that point. Or is the .060 the width of the scoring on the face of the rotor? Maybe I'm interpreting it incorrectly. The .002 runout can be achieved, but just seems really tight. That pretty much mandates turning the rotor every time, doesn't it? My Infinitis have a limit of .0028 and my Dodge and Acura both allow .004 max. Is that TSB for a particular model, or across all GM product lines?

The bulletin says depth - and to replace any rotor that had a score deeper than .060" after refinishing. Personally, I'd replace anything that was scored .060", but that's just me.

Hubless rotors with more than .002" LRO can be corrected using correction (shim) plates between the rotor "hat" and hub face.

The TSB covers all GM vehicles since 1999.

[mechmike0034]

The .060 deep scoring just doesn't pass the sniff test. If I can feel it with my fingernail, it's too deep, and .060 is at least 10x beyond that point. Or is the .060 the width of the scoring on the face of the rotor? Maybe I'm interpreting it incorrectly. The .002 runout can be achieved, but just seems really tight. That pretty much mandates turning the rotor every time, doesn't it? My Infinitis have a limit of .0028 and my Dodge and Acura both allow .004 max. Is that TSB for a particular model, or across all GM product lines?

Also, here's a "multi-makes" perspective from one of the trade magazines:

http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1167

[mechmike0034]

I never understood cheap brake parts:

Affinia (parent company of Raybestos) is suing another brake parts manufacturer (http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/60782/affinia_files_suit_over_brake_safety_concerns.aspx) over their claims that their rotors meet or exceed OE specs.


"Most do-it-yourselfers and auto repair shops rely on such advertising statements because they lack the technical expertise to know whether a part actually meets or exceeds OE specifications and performance," Affinia said in the statement. "If potential purchasers are told that aftermarket parts from competing suppliers are of comparable quality - i.e., meet or exceed OE specifications - price differences between competing products become significant. “Lightweight Rotors” cost less to produce. They are, however, more likely to fail than parts that meet OE specifications, which can create safety risks. Despite the fact that Dura’s "Lightweight Rotors" do not meet or exceed OE specifications, the company continues to expressly state or otherwise imply that every unit meets or exceeds OE specifications and performance. These false claims give Dura an unfair advantage over Affinia. Dura’s false and misleading advertising creates a motor vehicle safety risk, and Affinia, in its lawsuit, is asking the court to halt it."

[Prngr44]

I changed my brakes a few months ago (honestly forget what kind of pads I bought, they were middle of the road semi-metallics) and the brake dust is insane. Will it ever slow down or am I cursed with having to wash my wheels twice for every car wash?

[mechmike0034]

I changed my brakes a few months ago (honestly forget what kind of pads I bought, they were middle of the road semi-metallics) and the brake dust is insane. Will it ever slow down or am I cursed with having to wash my wheels twice for every car wash?

I can't see it slowing down without going to a different pad. Ceramic pads tend to dust less.

[mechmike0034]

Also, here's a "multi-makes" perspective from one of the trade magazines:

http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1167

Here's another...

http://motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1329

and another...

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/bf110322.htm

[mechmike0034]

I can't see it slowing down without going to a different pad. Ceramic pads tend to dust less.

Preventing Brake Dust:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/bf40468.htm

[guiseppewv]

Pads: ACDelco DuraStop 17D914C (http://198.208.187.182/internet/PartImage.jsp?mfgname=ACDELCO&prodlinecd=14&acpartnbr=17D914C)

Ceramics are OE and recommended replacement for this vehicle, though there is a semi-metallic (17D914M) available. Semi-mets are noisier but will give longer life and better performance in extreme conditions.

These pads are independently certified by Greening Labs to meet or exceed OE stopping performance.

Rotors: ACDelco DuraStop 18A912 (http://198.208.187.182/internet/PartImage.jsp?mfgname=ACDELCO&prodlinecd=14&acpartnbr=18A912)

Slotted are also available - these are directional - 18A1562 (http://198.208.187.182/internet/PartImage.jsp?mfgname=ACDELCO&prodlinecd=14&acpartnbr=18A1562) is the driver's side, 18A1563 is the passenger's side...

Available online... (http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/b2c/catalog_search.php)

Mike - So, I need brake pads for an 03 Civic EX now. I searched acdelco.com and found the part # (17D465AM). I called local retailers of AC Delco parts but no luck. I contacted numerous online retailers but nobody has them in stock. There is no place on acdelco's website to order anymore. Do you know where else I can order these from? I tried to call acdelco but they are already closed. I attempted to send them an e-mail but their site crashes everytime I hit "submit".