Hydrogen Powered Cars

[Crazyace]

What do you think? I do know they need to do somthing about this fuel shortage, and I think hydrogen would be a viable option.

[topane]

I'm all for alternative fuel so long as it's more environmentally friendly. I'm not worried about any exploding cars--how many gas-powered vehicles have been recalled anyways because of fuel tank placement? Several. I'm sure we're going to see a lot of ads from Exxon, Sunono, etc w/footage of the Hindenburg.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Hydrogen powered cells! Now that's the future.

[swissarmyca]

Hydrogen powers rockets. Thinks about it. Your car would be powered by rocket fuel! Plus it is environmentally friendly and renewable, too. My main concern would be how to refuel this baby for it could be dangerous such as leakage which would not only freeze everything within a 3 yard radius (since it is transported in sufficient quantities only when liquified) but will also blow up when it contact oxygen.

[spigidygak]

Hydrogen is the way to go. Since the "pollutant" that comes out of it is water, hehehe.

[OC]

I think that alternative fuel vehicles are inevitable, and I welcome them. Hydrogren in paricular, because it is non-polluting, and we have a limitless supply. BMW has done a lot of work with hydrogen over the last decade or so, and has several hydrogen-powered 735's running around.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/03/16/hydrogen.cars/index.html

If anyone is interested, I have been researching alternative (renewable) energy for years as a hobby and I know quite a bit. If anyone wants some good linkage, just let me know.

A near-immediate solution to the California energy crisis: Place photovoltaic (PV) panels in the medians of highways, on poles about 40 feet high and tie them into the power grid. No more land is required (it's already being used by the freeways) and it'd be decentralized, so an earthquake wouldn't take out an entire power plant, so to speak. Put PV panels on the roofs of every office and government building. Hell, do this in AZ, NM, and NV and turn those states into large electricity providers. Very little maintenance for PVs, and the technology exists RIGHT NOW. Then Dubya could keep his CO2 promise. :P

-o

[Edited by overclocked on 03-18-2001 at 11:19 AM]

[OC]

Not hydrogen related, buy very cool. Check it out:

http://biodiesel.vtrekker.com/biodiesel.htm

Pay particular attention to the "Key Advantages of Biodiesel"

-o

[hapoo]

guys, if the car did crash it COULD BLOW UP!!! hydrogen is waaaaay more volitile than gasoline. No matter what they show in the movies, Gasoline doesn't blow up!!! Hydrogen does, even if you do put the flamability aside, the fuel is under high pressure. I for one wouldn't want to ride a ticking time bomb.

[OC]

Hapoo, did you actually read the CNN article? If so, you maust have missed this part:

"BMW conducted numerous crash tests to see what would happen if the hydrogen tank was punctured or damaged. Their engineers report the liquid hydrogen dissipated harmlessly into the air."

Are we going to let one simple fact - hydrogen explodes - keep us from using it as a fuel source? That's very short-sighted. That's what R&D is all about, to find ways to solve or get around these kinds of issues. (LPG and CNG also explode, and they are in widespread use in fleet vehicles and such.)

Something will have to happen eventually, due to one unavoidable fact: gasoline (hell, all petroleum products) is not renewable. It WILL be gone one day. The time to prepare is now.

-o

[hapoo]

of coarse they're going to say that!!!!
What do you expect them to say? "We conducted several crash tests and strange enough the car disappeared every time, about 5 minutes later it started to rain pieces of metal"
OK i'm exagerating but still. Maybe in 15-20 years.

[WolfMan]

If its cheaper than gas then i'm all for it! Oh and whoever posted the reply saying that gas doesnt explode...your an idiot! Gas blows big time! just a spark and your messed!

[JaQnAbOx]

I think its find of funnythat Harpo has a BMW icon/picture..and he is against the hyrdrogen powered car by BMW.

[hapoo]

Originally posted by WolfMan
If its cheaper than gas then i'm all for it! Oh and whoever posted the reply saying that gas doesnt explode...your an idiot! Gas blows big time! just a spark and your messed!


Gasoline does not explode dumbass! its not volitile enough!!! I know I've worked at a gas station before! It IS very flammible BUT IT WILL NOT EXPLODE.
I really suggest you take at least a general chem class before you start bitching. at room temp. It can't explode. even if you pour some on the ground and ignite it the gasoline will not burn, its vapors will, if it was volitile enough you couldn't make a Molotov cocktail :)

[Edited by hapoo on 03-18-2001 at 05:22 PM]

[OC]

Originally posted by hapoo
of coarse (sic) they're going to say that!!!!
What do you expect them to say? "We conducted several crash tests and strange enough the car disappeared every time, about 5 minutes later it started to rain pieces of metal"
OK i'm exagerating but still. Maybe in 15-20 years.

15 or 20 years? Why, will hydrogen be less flammable then?

Oh, and Hapoo, if you don't believe BMW, then why are you such a fan of the company? Do I smell a little hipocrisy in the air?

[hapoo]

Damn Can you feel the heat in the room?? :)
This has nothing to do with BMW. But i think within 15-20 years they will have a safer way of handling it, you can't just release something to the public without a lot of testing.

Its a very childish point of view to think that because i don't believe them or whatever that i'm hipocritical. I like the cars they make, that doesn't mean that I like the company! (I do like the company but still)

[OC]

Originally posted by hapoo
Damn Can you feel the heat in the room?? :)
This has nothing to do with BMW. But i think within 15-20 years they will have a safer way of handling it, you can't just release something to the public without a lot of testing.

Hapoo, this does nothing to answer my question. Your objection was about the explosive nature of hydrogen. We already have near-perfect technology for HANDLING (extracting from air & water, storing, transporting) hydrogen, but what does that have to do with its explosive nature? Getting into a car accident has nothing whatsoever to do with the "handling" of the vehicles fuel.

Hydrogen will be just as explosive in 15-20 years as it is today. BMW has stated that they have a safe method of storing hydrogen in the vehicle, yet you don't believe them (and you claim to like the company). What, exactly, do you feel would be gained by waiting 15-20 years? Will you be more apt to believe BMW then?

[hapoo]

Originally posted by overclocked
Will you be more apt to believe BMW then?


Yes :P

[unnamed]

i just saw a show on tlc explaining that they aren't planning on using liquid hydrogen, just hydrogen gas in these crazy expensive fuel cells.

they also explained that hydrogen isn't much more flammable then gasoline.

[hapoo]

/me throws a match into the gasoline under overclock, run-duck-and-cover next to DarkFury and lmao.

[Ice-9]

It was my belief that gasoline fumes exploded, liquid gasoline burned, and that liquid hydrogen evaporated. Or at least, that's what I seem to remember from O. Chem.

I would tend to believe BMW if they say that this technology is safe. Think about it this way - if they say it's safe, and they release a car powered in this way, and it turns out they're wrong (the hydrogen isn't safe, or whatever), they are royally screwed. Their entire reputation will take a huge blow, and not only will they not sell fuel cell cars, all their other sales will decline. And you better believe their marketing experts know this, so I'm betting that BMW and every other car maker won't put out a fuel cell car unless they're absolutely positive that they're not going to get a very public black eye from it.

My $.02. (Worth approx. 19,640 liras if taken to Turkey)

[OC]

So Hapoo would rather run and hide (laughing all the way) than answer my question. He must have lots of faith in his point of view, considering he won't bother to explain it.

[Edited by overclocked on 03-18-2001 at 10:51 PM]

[JaQnAbOx]

lets just ride/drive hydrogen missiles...faster than the average car...and get an extra bang for your buck

[hapoo]

Originally posted by overclocked
So Hapoo would rather run and hide (laughing all the way) than answer my question. He must have lots of faith in his point of view, considering he won't bother to explain it.

[Edited by overclocked on 03-18-2001 at 10:51 PM]


Damn, you just won't quit will you???
Heres the answer to your question. YES I WOULD RATHER RUN AND HIDE (LAUGHING ALL THE WAY) THAN ANSWER YOUR QUESTION. Happy? Is you ego bigger now?

[ironchef]

there are some minor drawbacks to hydrogen, but in whole it'd be a helluva lot better.

minor drawback - it does have a waste product of steam. steam is one of those fun things that play up the in the air and contribute to greenhouse effect (but that's only true if make that huge leap of faith allowing you to believe in greenhouse, global warming etc.).

so, we could cool it before it leaves the car then just have some water trickle out the tail. solves the steam bit, but now we have water all over the streets and ice during the winters. definitely not good.

mayhaps we could store the water in a resevoir. when you pull up to fill up, the robots empty your resvoir too. doesn't seem like that much more of a hassle, and could solve those two scenarios above.

oh, and it could be used for emergency water when the car spontaneously combusts!

[OC]

Originally posted by hapoo

Originally posted by overclocked
So Hapoo would rather run and hide (laughing all the way) than answer my question. He must have lots of faith in his point of view, considering he won't bother to explain it.

[Edited by overclocked on 03-18-2001 at 10:51 PM]

Damn, you just won't quit will you???
Heres the answer to your question. YES I WOULD RATHER RUN AND HIDE (LAUGHING ALL THE WAY) THAN ANSWER YOUR QUESTION. Happy? Is you ego bigger now?

This has nothing to do with my ego, and you damn well know it. This has to do with YOU not having enough confidence in your point of view to answer my question. You'd rather turn this into a joke. Fine, be immature if you want. I'll let it drop, but I have to say I'm very disappointed with your attitude. And you have the nerve to call other people "dumbass".

Oh, and it's "your ego", not "you ego".

[helius]

Originally posted by overclocked

This has nothing to do with my ego, and you damn well know it. This has to do with YOU not having enough confidence in your point of view to answer my question. You'd rather turn this into a joke. Fine, be immature if you want. I'll let it drop, but I have to say I'm very disappointed with your attitude. And you have the nerve to call other people "dumbass".

Oh, and it's "your ego", not "you ego".

A person less concerned about feeding his ego would drop the whole thing. Talk about being immature.

And... picking on grammatical (or quite possibly typographical in this case) errors? Talk about pots calling kettles black - "hipocrisy"?!? Sheesh!

[OC]

Are you TRYING to egg me on? I already stated in my last post that I was letting it drop. All I wanted was AN ANSWER TO MY F*CKING QUESTION! Why is that so much to ask? Can anyone give me real answer to THAT question?

You would rather back someone who DOESN'T HAVE THE BALLS TO EXPLAIN HIS POINT OF VIEW than someone who was trying to have a perfectly reasonable discussion on the merits of using hydrogen as a fuel source.

Oh, and as to "picking on grammatical (or quite possibly typographical in this case) errors" - I don't expect any more from others than I expect from myself when it comes to "typographical" matters. So, no, I was NOT being hypocritical.

[ironchef]

hey overclocked, how bout sharing some of those links you mentioned in a previous post? as a wannabe, tree-huggin, hippie, animal-saving fag, i find this stuff interesting as well (think i got all the possible insults there).

[OC]

Ok - here you go. These are links to news stories and such that I found intersting:

http://zzz.com.ru/65.html
http://www.wavegen.co.uk/start.htm
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/074/nation/State_giving_47m_in_grants_loans_for_clean_energy%2b.shtml
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-97689,00.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32429-2001Mar6.html

These are informational sites and some online stores:

http://www.homepower.com (lots of good info, and a free PDF of the monthly magazine)
http://www.jademountain.com (check out the white LED lighting)
http://www.cogeneration.com
http://www.fuelcells.org
http://www.powerpod.com
http://www.veggievan.org/
http://biodiesel.vtrekker.com/biodiesel.htm
http://dir.yahoo.com/Science/Energy/ (A Yahoo! page with LOTS of linkage)
http://www.ccrane.com/
http://www.goldengenesis.com
http://backwoodssolar.com
http://www.alt-energy.com
http://www.alternativesolar.com
http://www.realgoods.com
http://www.traceengineering.com
http://www.offgrid.com
http://www.firewindandrain.com


Those'll get you started. If you want more just let me know. :cheers:

-o

[Edited by overclocked on 03-19-2001 at 10:30 AM]

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by overclocked
Do I smell a little hipocrisy in the air?

Originally posted by overclocked
Oh, and as to "picking on grammatical (or quite possibly typographical in this case) errors" - I don't expect any more from others than I expect from myself when it comes to "typographical" matters. So, no, I was NOT being hypocritical.
If you, therefore, admit that you can't spell, don't hop on someone else when the meaning of the statement is obviously clear.

Since I've already contributed to this insanity (which is beginning to rival the stupidity with smeakim last week), I'll say this: since engineers can't even get hydrogen fuel cells to work properly or reliably in static installations, this talk of powering a car, what with it's myriad of complications (in comparison to a fixed install), is pie-eyed fantasy for the next little bit. I agree it'll be neat when it comes out, but when you're talking about cars, you're talking about a massive support infrastructure. Look at diesel for christ's sakes; do you have any idea how hard it is to find a diesel station? Since we aren't in any real danger of running out of oil or gas in our lifetimes, how likely is it that people are going to rush to install hydrogen filling stations? Factor in that the fuel is going to be admittedly cheap, couple that with the safety restrictions and complication of storing the stuff: either it won't be cheap, or no-one'll build a station!

[OC]

Pennypinch - Thanks for your thoughts. I would like some clarification from you, if you don't mind. You stated "engineers can't even get hydrogen fuel cells to work properly or reliably in static installations". Why do you say this? What have you read that led you to develop that opinion? Do you have some linkage for us perhaps?

Here I go again, asking questions. :banghead:

-o

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by overclocked
Pennypinch - Thanks for your thoughts. I would like some clarification from you, if you don't mind. You stated "engineers can't even get hydrogen fuel cells to work properly or reliably in static installations". Why do you say this? What have you read that led you to develop that opinion? Do you have some linkage for us perhaps?

Here I go again, asking questions. :banghead:

-o
I actually work in the energy industry (not for a supplier, so I guess my views are relatively unclouded). From all the stuff I've seen (none of which is one the web, as far as I know), installations so far have shown relatively poor performance. Their life cycle, to date, is unknown. No-one can tell if they're going to keep their production up over the course of time, for example. Further, installations have been both extremely costly and unreliable. Hell, they can't even get gas distributed generation to work properly, so it's no wonder hydrogen is still a long ways off...

[KoalaFD]

Didn't know people could get so worked up about gases...

[hapoo]

Originally posted by KoalaFD

Didn't know people could get so worked up about gases...


Well when some people have something up their ass...

[OC]

Oil Giant Sees Growing Role for Renewable Energies

HOUSTON, Texas - Royal Dutch Shell Group, the second largest oil company in the world, says half the energy needs in industrialized countries could be met by 2020 from renewable energies and natural gas.

"Sustainability and good business go hand in hand," says the managing director of the Royal Dutch Shell Group. Jeroen van der Veer says Shell's push to boost natural gas production and invest in renewable energy are a response to consumer demand for cleaner energy but will also be good for the company's bottom line.

Coal, oil and natural gas provide 85 percent of the world's energy needs and that status will not change overnight, but he says the oil industry needs to respond to public concerns about the role of fossil fuel combustion in raising global temperatures.

Full story here:
http://www.solaraccess.com/sanews/showstory.asp?id=267

[SpeedRacer]

I would drive a hydrogen powered car if/when it's released. Waiting a couple of years for more testing would be better though. I'm wondering if the car's power would be affected by using hydrogen instead? The article said it shouldn't have any effect, but I would actually like some figures.

[OC]

I found another link to those hydrogen-powered 750hL's that BMW has running around:
http://www.h2power.fsnet.co.uk/page2.html

-o

[puppie]

Also, if people are worried about the hydrogen exploding, you could have onboard processing of the hydrogen from methanol or gasoline. It won't be as clean, but it will still be better than the pollutants from the century old gasoline engine. Maybe they should put in fuel cells and run an electric motor. That would be even more efficient.