I left my plane in your yard, can I have it back?

[TheLoneGunman]

George, George, George!

This is his first "major" foreign policy crisis and he sure is bungling it.

We engage a super high tech surveillance plane (filled with 24 people) in a dogfight with fighter jets (each have 1-2 people). First, guess who wins? Of course, fat American plane is no match and is forced to land.

Where does it land? Inside enemy airspace. Silly americans then walk out of plane and turn themselves and jet filled with all this top secret equipment over to the Chinese.

The Chinese of course are happy to receive these gifts. George W then politely asks for them back. As if! We have no claim to anything and if they return the guys after a sound beating and interrogation (we would have done the same) we should consider it a victory. I am willing to bet that some of his Texas oil friends were on board, just like on the sub that rammed those Japanese children.

For a law and order president, he sure has been breaking the law and creating a lot of disorder.

The press needs to stop giving him a free ride and start nailing him for these fiascos.

[sbp]

The collision took place over 60 miles off the coast of Hainan in international waters. China claims almost all of the South China sea as theirs. Well its not.

The Chinese say this big and slow EP-3 veered into the fast and nimble F-8. If true then they would be really in deep trouble against a F-18. No more likely the Chinese fighters were hazing this unarmed plane and one of the dumb ass fighter pilots got too close.

http://www.geocities.com/laracroftsucks/EP-3.x

plane specs: http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/ep-3_aries.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/j-8.htm

Oh yeah like America is suppose to go in there with guns blazing. And where was the plane supposed to land? Into the sea? Yeah those guys are going to hold out on a Chinese island surrounded by Chinese troops.

You can be damn sure the liberal news media won't cut Bush a fraction of the slack they gave their slick buddy Clinton.

Your post would be funny if it wasn't so absurd. :rolleyes:

[TheLoneGunman]

Actually, yes, I DID expect them to ditch it in the sea. Whenever a Cuban pilot brings his plane to the US, we always perform a "safety inspection" (i.e. record and steal the technology) before we even think of returning it.

Why shouldn't it be any different with China? They should have expected that the technology would fall into enemy hands if they landed at their airbase. Back in the cold war days, they probably would have been expected to blow up themselves and their plane (If you remember back to Gary Powers, that is why he was so disgraced--because he allowed himself and his plane to be captured by the Commies)

As far as the crew, if they were floating on a rubber raft in the sea, it would be so much easier to justify retrieving them than when they landed at the airbase.

"unarmed"??? - "The aircraft can carry a variety of weapons such as the Harpoon anti-surface missile, the MK-50 torpedo and the MK-60 mine."

[Edited by TheLoneGunman on 04-02-2001 at 09:53 AM]

[jase71]

Originally posted by sbp
You can be damn sure the liberal news media won't cut Bush a fraction of the slack they gave their slick buddy Clinton.



Or their slick buddy Reagan, who got away with this kind of thing even more than Clinton. Grenada anyone?

At any rate, what were we doing flying a surveillance plane 60-70 miles off of China's coast, especially one full of electronic evesdropping equipment? Even if the thing is in international airspace, is it smart? Geez, how would WE react if Chinese spyplanes cruised 70 miles off the East or West coast, past a bunch of military bases? We'd damn well get defensive too.

This was especially stupid in light of our fairly recent bombing of the Chinese embassy due to some idiots who can't read street addresses right.

Unless Dubya is trying to invent a new Evil Empire to justify his defense spending, he'd better pour on the charm with the Chinese. Even if the plane had a right to be there. We got caught with our jockey shorts around our knees. Spying on them is one thing. Everyone knows it happens. Spying and getting CAUGHT for all the world to see, well, that's a black eye.

[fakesurfers]

We have a right to do anything we want (in accordance with international law) in international waters. So what if we were spying? China had better think twice and release our soldiers immediately. Nothing unites the US quicker than some other country messing with us. Now, I dont like Bushlet, but I fully support putting the squeeze on China's gerontocrats if our people are not returned asap.

[TheLoneGunman]

No one is saying this has anything to do with spying in international waters...

If you drive by my house and take pictures, I might hate you, but that is it. However, if because of your hotdogging while taking these pictures, our cars collide and you pull into my garage, then I can hold you for trespassing and impound your car as evidence.

If you don't believe the US has the same policy, just try to land a disabled MiG on a US Fighter base and see if it isn't impounded (at least until the technology is analyzed).

Even if the guys in the P-3 weren't completely responsible for the crash, they should have left the area if there was a risk.

This is not the first time we have pulled this crap. Remember flight 007 in the same area over Sakhelin Island? We were spoofing fighters to look like commercial jets and then when the Soviets mistake a real jet for one of the fakes, there is a fatal problem. The US of course played completely innocent. What about the Iranian passenger jet we shot down?

George W wouldn't know humility if it crawled up his nose like a cocaine flake. That is why he will blow this out of proportion and end up looking very bad (and possibly get a lot of good people killed)

[jase71]

Agreed.

We may have had a perfect right to be flying in international waters, spying on China.

But if we ARE flying in international waters, just off the coast of China, SPYING on China, and get CAUGHT, well,
we shouldn't be surprised and get upset when they get angry.

Especially considering our recent history with China. They've already got a good reason to be pissed at us.
Why are we giving them MORE reasons?

This is the price we pay. We have every right to try and get our soldiers back. But the plane itself? We should consider ourselves lucky if we get it back. And we probably shouldn't be griping if they stick their nose in it and look around a little. We would do EXACTLY The same thing if a Chinese spy plane landed here. No double standards.

[TheLoneGunman]

The Chinese are not ones to be messed with. They are no joke. They have ICBMs and are not afraid to use them. Remember, we have missle treaties with Russia, but not China. Also, our missle defense sucks. If we piss them off too much, goodbye west coast (and I am kinda still attached to living here).

The 24 crewpeople should be all given medals for stupidity (unless this was all a ploy to leak "fake" secrets to China) and given a bill for the aircraft that they wasted.

We have all seen crazy drivers on the Freeway and we have managed to not let them get us in an accident so why couldn't these people?

[quest577]

our cars
collide and you pull into my garage, then I can hold you for trespassing and
impound your car as evidence.


...that's not true

[sbp]

Reagan stopped communism from getting another foldhold in this hemisphere. Thats something those on the left can never forgive or forget.

The US is keeping tabs on their military just like China does the same to us.

Get caught? Their plane smashed into ours! The US repeatly asked China not to engage in that type of numskulled behavior. Well China didn't listen around and it bite them in the ass. Now China wants the US to apologize for something China caused and wants restitution for its fighter. Well that won't be happening. China is embarassed that one of its fighters was brought down in this manner. They should be. They caused the damn accident.

Just look at this map to see how much of the South China Sea China is claiming. Its ludricrous!
http://www.geocities.com/laracroftsucks/chinamap.x

People in that region see China for the BIG bully for which it is. One that will hold 2 scholars for its agenda.

This is a dangerous game the Chinese are playing. The Chinese use every situation they can to heighten tensions in order to gain concessions from the US. Well Clinton is no longer around to appease his Red Chinese buddies. And of course the Red Chinese were all over that plane asap. China stole most of their technology from the US!

This blame America attitude some have is just plain sad.

[jase71]

Originally posted by sbp
Reagan stopped communism from getting another foldhold in this hemisphere. Thats something those on the left can never forgive or forget.

And which "foothold" would that be? Grenada, that mighty power of the Atlantic, that Reagan attacked to divert attention from the Iran Contra investigation, the original "wag the Dog"? Or was it Nicarauga, where we trashed the Constitution to try and install our own dictator, rather than some other dictator? And swapped some arms to Iran for hostages? And ran drugs to fund the whole thing?

You seem to equate everyone on the left with being and/or loving communists, sbp. That's no more accurate than to say everyone on the right is or loves Nazis.




The US is keeping tabs on their military just like China does the same to us.

Get caught? Their plane smashed into ours!

Sure... it smashed into our plane WHILE WE WERE SPYING ON THEM. Is the crash their fault? Probably. But it never would have happened if we weren't there spying! I'd be much more upset if this were a commercial airliner, or some plane with a "legitimate" reason to be there. But we were there, poking our noses where they weren't wanted, and when we got spanked for it, we complain?

Come on... if a Chinese spy plane cruised the California coast, and we flanked it with fighters, would that be unusual? No... now, if one of our fighters accidentally hit the Chinese spy plane, how sad would we be for the Chinese? Not very. That's the risks you take for playing the game. If you cant' take the heat, quit spying.

They were wrong to hit us, but that doesn't make us innocent.



Now China wants the US to apologize for something China caused and wants restitution for its fighter. Well that won't be happening. China is embarassed that one of its fighters was brought down in this manner. They should be. They caused the damn accident.

Well, here we agree. If it turns out the Chinese plane did hit the US plane (most agree that's the likely scenario), then the Chinese SHOULD pay for the downed plane, and should apologize. And they shouldn't expect restitution for their fighter.



People in that region see China for the BIG bully for which it is. One that will hold 2 scholars for its agenda.


China IS a bully in the region. However, we shouldn't hold them to a double standard here.

Do you think the US military ignores all incoming planes until they reach US Airspace? Planes are scrambled long before any plane hits US airspace. We go out and shadow anything in the area, regardless of whether it's international airspace or not, if we perceive it as a threat.

Now, the US may not claim that airspace as THEIRS, like China is doing... but the end result is the same. They were shadowing a plane in international airspace that they perceived as a threat, the same as what we would do.

Their mistake was having bad, or stupid, pilots that made an everyday situation into a crisis. You can probably guess it wasn't government policy to collide with the other plane. It was an accident due to stupid decisions.

The problem here is that there's blame on both sides. More on China's side than ours... but some on each. We WERE after all, spying. We knowingly put ourselves in a dangerous and less than upstanding position by spying on them. The Chinese then made a series of stupid mistakes that turned this into a crisis. Had we stayed home, and respected their soveignty, or had they used a little common sense, none of this would have happened.


This is a dangerous game the Chinese are playing. The Chinese use every situation they can to heighten tensions in order to gain concessions from the US.

Yeah, like the way they goaded us into bombing the crap out of their embassy. :rolleyes:



Well Clinton is no longer around to appease his Red Chinese buddies. And of course the Red Chinese were all over that plane asap. China stole most of their technology from the US!

Again, we wouldn't have been all over the Chinese plane if the situation were reversed? Tell me we wouldn't have inspected it from head to tail. Please.




This blame America attitude some have is just plain sad.

As is the misguided notion that America is always right, and that we ALWAYS wear the white hat.

We've got our fair share of dirty secrets and questionable behavior as well.

We may be the best and brightest country in the world right now, but that doesn't make us perfect or always right.

[speedracer120]

It's not as if George W. Bush initiated this policy of "spying". Oh by the way, it's not called spying, it's called gathering electronic intelligence. See cause if anyone really wanted to keep their secrets secret, they would be more careful than to send it via radio and email.

Don't be talking about double standards. America is held to these idealist standards, maybe because people expect us to be perfect. That's a load of crap. China can be doing stupid ass retarded shit and no one would shrug about it, hell they'd probably encourage or applaud it, but if America were to do the same thing, people would be having coniption fits and yelling about how are government is meddling. Give me a break. There's no doubt China spies, Russia spies, Israel spies, but God forbid the CIA spies. Oh no we can't spy. Get over yourselves. :rolleyes:

I'm off my soap box now. :)

[jase71]

Originally posted by speedracer120
It's not as if George W. Bush initiated this policy of "spying".

You're right. GW really has very little to do with this whole thing, other than the fact that it's been dumped in his lap and he has to deal with it.

This identical situation would likely have happened if Clinton was still president, or if Gore had won, or if McCain had beaten GW, and won.

It'll be interesting to see how GW handles it.



Oh by the way, it's not called spying, it's called gathering electronic intelligence. See cause if anyone really wanted to keep their secrets secret, they would be more careful than to send it via radio and email.


I hope that was meant tongue-in-cheek. Spying is spying, regardless of what you call it.




Don't be talking about double standards. America is held to these idealist standards, maybe because people expect us to be perfect. That's a load of crap. China can be doing stupid ass retarded shit and no one would shrug about it, hell they'd probably encourage or applaud it, but if America were to do the same thing, people would be having coniption fits and yelling about how are government is meddling. Give me a break. There's no doubt China spies, Russia spies, Israel spies, but God forbid the CIA spies. Oh no we can't spy. Get over yourselves. :rolleyes:


I'm not saying we shouldn't spy. Not at all. Nor am I saying that no one else spies, obviously they do.

What I'm saying is that if we're going to spy, then we have to be prepared to suffer the consequences. And we shouldn't be pissed off when the other country gets upset about it if we're caught.

Hell, we just booted a ton of diplomats home to Russia because of spying by some of them. We were upset. And rightfully so.

Doesn't another country have the right to be pissed off if they catch the US spying on them? THAT'S the double-standard I'm talking about. If we have the right to be pissed off when we catch spies, then we have to expect other countries to be pissed off when they catch our spies.

That's ALL I'm saying.

[Chinpoko_Mon]

Originally posted by jase71
It'll be interesting to see how GW handles it.


He'd probably go and ask his dad...

Bush Jr : "Umm dad, I have friend who's the, uh, President of a powerful nation and one of his spy planes had to do an emergency landing in the country it was spying on. Now they won't give him back his plane or military personnel. What should he do?"

Bush Sr : "Well Jr., if your friend's country is more powerful, I say, BOMB the SH!T outta the other guys. "

Bush Jr : "What a great idea dad, I think I'll do.. I mean I'll tell my friend to do just that! Thanks!"

Bush Sr : "Oh by the way, do the guys on the other side need any weapons, bombs and such? I've got a couple of buddies who needs some business."

[pennypinch]

Might as well further infuriate another Asian country by parking your nuclear sub in one of their parking spaces...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010403/aponline011248_001.htm

Jesus, isn't this exactly what we were worried about before the election? That, charming as Bush's IR ignorance may have been, it may actually come and bite us in the ass sometime? I realize thinking "Hey, I'm the leader of the big, bad US! I can do whatever the fuck I feel like" is a tempting sentiment, but not always the best idea immediately after pulling out of an international conference on greenhouse gases.

Yeesh. At the rate we're going, San Fran'll be the world's biggest microwave within 6 months! :heh:

[pennypinch]

An interesting take on what may have been happening...

http://www.taipeitimes.com/news/2001/04/03/story/0000080165

If true, the States is within its rights to spy on something in international waters, right? If the ship was in Chinese waters, I'd agree wholeheartedly that we'd be at fault, but...

[m0j0]

can't we all just get along?

[LPMiller]

the only important thing should be to get the crew members back. They gots the plane fair and square, let 'em keep it. Risks you take in the spy game. But getting those people back is what is important. Bush harping about the plane just makes him look like an ass.

[TheLoneGunman]

Quest577 sez:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
our cars
collide and you pull into my garage, then I can hold you for trespassing and
impound your car as evidence.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



...that's not true

Actually, I believe it is. You can make a citizen's arrest. If I don't have the grounds to do it, you can sue me for unlawful imprisonment. If you don't believe me, ram the car of a rent-a-cop at the mall and see what happens.


Thus sayeth LPM:
Bush harping about the plane just makes him look like an ass.

What you see is what you get.

Not to bring up an old topic, but when the crew are returned, will he count them or will he just trust the Chinese to get it right? :heh: (I should not be making light of other's misfortune :smash: However, 100% of these people enlisted and were well aware of the dangers of being in the military.)

[eSDee]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman

Not to bring up an old topic, but when the crew are returned, will he count them or will he just trust the Chinese to get it right? :heh: (I should not be making light of other's misfortune :smash: However, 100% of these people enlisted and were well aware of the dangers of being in the military.) [/B]

Damn don't be so sympathetic LG. You make it sound like those soldiers are drug addicts or gang members or some shit. Just because by enlisting in the military it means that one day you might have give up your life for your country, it doesn't mean that if they are ever made to do so, then you should just accept it as "part of the job". Because those soldiers are willing to give their lives for this country, this country owes it to keep them from having to make that sacrifice.
Besides, chances are most of the soldiers on that flight were assigned to that position, rather than volunteered. That means that they could be like 99% of those in the military, those who accept the challenge of being in the military, but who do not really wish to engage in any combat or put their lives in jeopardy. Soldiers have family too, you know.
Also I wouldn't be surprised if there were some civilians on board as well. Not passengers like on the sub that killed those fisherman, but civilians who work for the government who are not officially in the military.

Other than that, I think the biggest thing that bugs me about the way that G Dubya is handling this is the way he talks about it to the media. I heard him saying yesterday, that he gave China an order, and he expects them to follow his orders.
All hail King Bush!!!