Post your feelings about the US - China Incidents unfolding

[DARTH]

Just curious what ya'll think as I know we have a very cultural diverse readership here.

[TheLoneGunman]

I don't think "culture" has anything to do with it.

I am very pro-Israel, but when Mossad get caught doing moronic things, (like when they bungled an asassanation attempt in Jordan and then pretended to be Canadian tourists when they were caught) I feel they should be hung out to dry.

Jimmy Carter tried a heroic rescue effort of the Iranian hostages, but it was doomed from the begining and when it was exposed as the joke that it was, it was one of the reasons he didn't get a second term. Hopefully the recent military fumbles will do the same to George W.

If China shot down the plane and killed the crew or even if they mistreated the crew (and there is no evidence they did) then there might be two sides to this, but I think we are clearly in the wrong and we should apologize and take the crew and go home.

[Dave_7]

It seems like China is taking this as an opportunity to "feel out" the new administration.




Dave.

[bicycleKICK]

I really hope this doesn't turn into anything big...

[fakesurfers]

I'm generally somewhat liberal, but when another country starts messing with our soldiers, they better watch out. I would be in favor of uprooting their crops and salting their Earth if they dont release them.

[Paladin]

Nuke em

[irwin]

Originally posted by Paladin
Nuke em

Watch it, punk.

[colinfield]

It is one thing to keep the plane, quite another our soldiers. If the US had a plane with technology decades ahead of ours, be honest, we would keep it 'till we were done with it. However, China has crossed a line by taking our soldiers, and they need to be reprimanded. I am of the opinion that we should give them a short period of time to release the soldiers. Say- 1 hour. That should be plenty of time. If they fail to comply, well, NATO can't say we didn't warn them.
Every hour that the troops spend there might be painful, as secrets are probably being extracted. Lets get our troops home, and if they fail to comply, well the world would be able to sustain 4.75 billion people a lot better than 6 billion :) (China's population is 1.25 billion)

[hapoo]

You would have to be oblivious to the world, to have managed to miss the current news involving the US spyplane and China.


ooops :heh:
When did all this happen?!?!? :confused:

[i6s1]

I don't see why the US thinks they need to fly spy planes up and down the coast in the first place. The world would like them a lot more if they didn't bug everyone.

And how would the Americans like it if there were Chinese spy planes flying up and down the coast of Cali? I don't think they'd take it too lightly.

[macroman]

we don't like it when other countries spy on us but ahemmm..it's ok for the US to spy on other countries..

[gwilks98]

Whether you like it or not, there ARE spy planes flying over international waters near our borders, and the planes aren't ours. So to say that we are guilty of espionage is a hypocritical game. Everyone's guilty.

And international law states that that plane is still under U.S. property rights. The plane sent out a distress call on the international frequency and China allowed it to land.

I'm not saying the U.S. wouldn't do the same thing, especially since we are haboring a Chinese General who went AWOL two weeks ago.

In any case, I don't think the issue is even over a stupid apology. Everyone knows that a prop plane should not be expected to move around an F-8. Besides, it was over international waters. I really think this is about the general who turned Benedict Arnold, and this is China's revenge.


Oh yeah, do you really think that the government cares about the safe return of the 24 crewmen? So long as they don't sell secrets, I don't think Uncle Sam gives a damn one way or the other. He just wants his plane back.

[eSDee]

The last thing we need to do is threaten China to return the plane. The main thing is just to get the soldiers back safely, and then debate about getting the plane back and exactly whose fault the planes crashing was.
I sure hope Dubya doesn't do anything stupid. He sounds to me like he is being insulted by the whole ordeal; that China has a lot of nerve to undermine his orders to return the plane and oh yeah, the soldiers too.

[ethiopianbuffman]

To everyone who thinks that the US or NATO should nuke China might want to think twice since it is know that China has 75+ nuclear long range missiles, 25 of which are pointed towards the US, 15 of those are pointed at the West Coast. Their response time is probably as good as are's when a nuclear missile is fired.
Yes I think that we should apologize to the Chinese government for a loss of life. No we should not be apologizing because we were spying on them. We spy on alot of countries and we need to protect the people. So far none of our soldiers have been injured or mistreated. There are noo deaths among the crew. The United States is however focusing its priorities in the wrong area. We are more concerned about trying to get our spy plane back, that our men can stay over there just a little bit longer because they are not in danger.
This incident will test the Bush administration. I think China is trying to get a feel for the new administration and their reaction to a critical situation such as this. But although this may be our fault or China's fault, this is just another incident with China that didn't need to happen. Just like the bombing of the Chinese Embassasy. What was that. To me, the US is definitely at fault. Our excuse for the bombing was that we used outdated maps. We are a superpower, and we have outdated maps. That embassasy has been there for 5+ years and I know we have spy planes take survellience photographs before any bombing.
All I am saying is that I want our men to come home and stop worrying about the plane because it has definitely been combed over and we would do the same thing if someone had advance technology. Plus we should apologize for the loss of life. A life is a life no matter what color, race, or religion. We are not sympathizing for the loss, but rather remorsing about a loss of technology.

EbM

[sbp]

Thats more of a reason for a missle defense system ethiopianbuffman. Which of course Red China doesn't want America to have.

What recent military fumbles TheLoneGunman?

The Chinese military and pilot knew something like this might happen. You play the game you take the lumps.

[topane]

I don't think we'll get the plane back, or at least not all in one piece--in the mid-70's, there was a Soviet pilot who defected by landing his Mig in Europe. The US sent the plane back to the USSR 76 days later, in little pieces. For us to expect a different treatment would be ludicrous. Neither country will ever admit they're wrong, so I imagine this will drag on for a bit...As for "international law" it's been ignored by many countries before (including US and China), so I don't think that's going to be a basis for resolution.

[blade]

Here's a pic of the plane on china's hainan island:

http://wire.ap.org/APnews/?MIvalObj=113015&type=image/jpeg

Notice where the damage is, how can it be the fault of the lumbering usa plane if the damage happened in front. Oh I know, we were tailgating the fighter so the chinese fighter pilot slammed his brakes. :rolleyes:

[jase71]

I don't think either side should be apologizing to the other at this point. That's asking too much until we know all the details. Apology is premature. Both sides carry at least SOME fault here, even if China appears to be MORE at fault.

At this point, the soldiers should come home. China ought to be smart enough to realize they're gaining nothing by keeping them. But I think Dave_7 was right... this is China's chance to test Bush to see how he reacts. And they'll use it. All the same, the soldiers should come home. If they don't, we've got a serious problem.

The plane? Well, it should eventually come back. But hey, we landed it in China. So now it's theirs to "safety inspect" until they decide to give it back. If we dont' like it, we should have crashed it at sea. But frankly, the lives of the soldiers are more important than not letting the Chinese see the plane.

[Doofy]

Originally posted by jase71
At this point, the soldiers should come home. China ought to be smart enough to realize they're gaining nothing by keeping them.

I agree that both sides was at fault. But why does China have to return the soldiers so quickly. We haven't heard the story from the US soldiers side yet. But if the US was indeed at fault, than those service men could be charged with murder. If I was in China's position, I would keep them too.

We're brought up with the mentality that we are innocent until proven guilty. So since it hasn't been proven that the US men were in the wrong, they shouldn't be held. But other countries believe in having to prove your innocence. And with that logic, China has every right to keep the men until they can prove so.

[apmiller]

I feel bad for the families involved but there's no point turning anyone over to anyone till both China and US can put together what happened. Both countries won't be happy till they can point blame.

[jase71]

I'm curious, because I don't know the answer...

If an incident occurs in international airspace, and requires a trial, who's jurisdiction does it fall under?

For example, this case, the collision occurs in international airspace. If the American pilots were seemingly guilty, is it up to China to hold the trial because a Chinese plane was downed? Or is it up to the US because the pilots were American? Or is there a neutral party or international court involved because it was international airspace?

Likewise, you could ask the same about the Chinese pilot, if he had survived. Where should he have been tried?

Seems like answering that question would tell us a lot about the proper fate of the American soldiers.

[apmiller]

My understanding is it should be NATO. But in seeing past issue in international waters it seems to be whoever gets there first will make the determination.

[welfareloser]

i agree that we would be acting like china if the tables were turned - we'd be all pissy if spy planes kept flying over our land.
the one thing that floors me is that they are so blatantly picking the plane to bits in defiance of international law. the us would do the same thing given half a chance, but they would at least make a half-assed attempt to cover it up! the chinese, on the other hand, are attacking it like a monkey trying to fuck a football - looking like a bunch of idiots, making a mess, pass the ky, please...

also, holding the soldiers is silly, but china ALWAYS acts like that. i don't get it. they're treating them fine, and they know they have to give them back eventually, but they're like kindergarteners saying "no! mine! no! won't listen to reason! no! i don't like you! mine! no! not until I SAY SO!" they just look silly.

[froggystyle]

HELLO PEOPLE..... SPY PLANE

not just military... SPY... Yes we all have spys and we all do spy, but that doesnt mean that we forgive when we catch spys nor does anyone else. its like saying that if the british capture an irish terrorist they just let them free right away and say- "oh its ok we have terrorists too so just go home." This is BS we were spying we got caught we need to appologise. China will continue to hold the spys and the plane until we are publicly humiliated just like we would do. It gives them more bargaining power in the future. Ill tell you this much. If I were china, I wouldnt want to look like Americas b!tch. Thats what China will look like if they just gave the spys back... Americas b!tch crumbles at our whim. Cant you just see the headlines...... blech.

-frog

[Doofy]

Originally posted by welfareloser
but they're like kindergarteners saying "no! mine! no! won't listen to reason! no! i don't like you! mine! no! not until I SAY SO!" they just look silly.

I wouldn't say they look completely silly. Shoot, by this incident, they've gotten a a little retribution for having their consulate bldg "accidentally" bombed. Have made the US have second thoughts about selling "arms" to Taiwan. And probably most importantly, have reminded all Americans that even though the Soviet Union is broken up now, there's still another force to be reckoned upon. Shoot, I've never really thought about how many nuclear missles are pointed towards the west coast. And probably wouldn't have without this incident.

And if someone is looking silly, let us not forget Bush. Read the other post in OT regarding this topic.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by sbp
You play the game you take the lumps.

Sort of like having to deal with losing spy planes when you're spying?

[ravi70]

We should offer to exchange GW for the downed servicemen and kill two birds with one stone.

[Dan]

I think I'll take on the part of the paranoid conspiracy theorist.

Could it be that the US and China are using this incident to cover something up that is much larger than what people think? Think about it. This mid-air accident happened on international airspace, which means the US spy plane was far enough from mainland China to be at fault for anything really. The jet fighter vs. prop plane also doesn't seem to make sense. Unless the Chinese pilot was drunk, it just seems ridiculous that a jet can run into a prop plane.

The situation with the US plane being held is also very suspicious. It seems to me that the US may actually be selling technology to the Chinese military, using this incident to keep people away from what is really happening. I'm not sure if everyone has kept up with Chinese military spending and China/Taiwan relationships, China has taking a pretty big step in upgrading their military the past couple of years. Most everyone knows that China wants control of Taiwan. They got Hong Kong (though it was very legitiment), so having control of Taiwan would complete things for them. Not wanting to be related in any way to the China/Taiwan conflict, the US is probably using this incident as a front to what really is going on. Sort of like that movie 'Wag the Dog'.

Anyhow, that's just my view as the paranoid conspiracy theorist.

It probably is just what we see it as. The US and China had an unfortunate incident (though very freakish, like the US sub hitting the Japanese boat (hmm...)), and both sides are having a hard time resolving this problem in a diplomatic way.

[apmiller]

I agree with Dan.

It's a little funny that these two planes could even hit each other! We'll never know what really happened up there but it just seems like the jet fighter would have had to be really determind to even hit our plane. I mean come on! We just fly around China and then suddenly, "Oops! I think we jsut stept on a Chinies Jet!"
Bottom line we just shouldn't have had a spy plane over there in the first place when we are trying to become trade allies.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by apmiller
Bottom line we just shouldn't have had a spy plane over there in the first place when we are trying to become trade allies.
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

[froggystyle]

i'll trade George W

start a petition ill sign it

[apmiller]

Sheesh! We offer them GW they'll nuke us for sure! Give them some super modles and a case of poptarts! That will shut them up and we can spare as much as we like.

[froggystyle]

are you saying we are stuck with him?

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by froggystyle
are you saying we are stuck with him?

What if we throw in Gore???
What about Clinton? He's gotta be worth something.

[apmiller]

Well not completely...I hear Sweden will take anybody in for a dollar.

[WTF_THATS_INSANE]

IF WE WERE FLYING IN INTERNATIONAL AIRSPACE, THIS IS A PROVOCATION TO WAR!!!

IF we were IN CHINESE airspace, then we owe an apology, and they should be able to keep the plane... BUT IN EITHER CASE... THE SOLDIERS SHOULDNT BE KEPT for... "Protective Custody"????? Protection from WHAT!!!! Just send them HOME, and they will not need to be protected.

And if china wants to improve relations with the US... they would do well to return our plane too. many of you have said "who cares its just a plane." In a WAR, many, many, many soldiers would DIE to protect secret technology like that plane contains. it could mean the difference in the war, so it IS important.

The Chinese govt. is lying to their citizens as well, causing unrest in the chinese population. Don't you all remember???? CHINA IS THE COUNTRY THAT RAN OVER THEIR OWN CITIZENS 12 YEARS AGO WITH TANKS... CRUSHING A !PEACEFULL! DEMONSTRATION IN TIANAMEN SQUARE!!!! THE CHINESE PEOPLE DONT KNOW ANY BETTER... AND THAT IS NOT THEIR FAULT... however... THE CHINESE GOVT. !DOES! KNOW BETTER.

The only clear solution is this... send the soldiers home immeadiatly, get a third unbiased party... the swiss maybe, to investigate the incident, or a joint chinese, american investigation. If it is determined it was in their airspace, we apologize for being in their airspace, and accept the changes that we will be forced to make in our policy. If it was in international space, then they apologize for knocking down our plane, and they will be forced to make HUGE concessions in policy towards us.

EITHER WAY... they owe us an appology for holding our soldiers, ESPECIALLY AFTER OUR SOLDIERS WERE ALLOWED TO LAND!!! AND... EITHER WAY we owe no apology for the downed f-8 pilot, who caused his own death by running into a less manuverable plane... no one MADE him do it outside of perhaps his own govt.

If the chinese refuse to send our soldiers home IMMEADIATLY... LIKE INSTANTLY... I suggest we prepare to mobilize, and investigate possible sanctions against china.

[AsidRayne]

"Spying"?
No. its called survellance. No one was "caught" spying. This was surveillance. Spying involves suspicious or unlawful entry for the purpose of gathering intelligence.

This was surveillance, a regular part of every military in the known world. We fly planes be cause we are the biggest dog on the block. As the big dog, we have many enemies and you are all fooling yourselves if u think China and the US are anywhere near becomming chummies. We have an established dialogue which basically means we speak directly to each other instead of cold war spy games. If we ever do become allies it will not be soon, and it will not be under isolationist Republican views.

Added to that, this plane is not exactly a stealth fighter. Its is the exact opposite of a stealth fighter. It emits radar up the wazoo. Its a freaking bloody beacon for crying out loud. Its a huge red barn.......in the middle of a cornfield........on fire......at night! Make no qualms about it, this sucker is VISIBLE.... as in NON COVERT.

the plane is very valuable. We all care for the airmen, but they have pledged and oath to serve and protect the united States. That plane is state of the art, top of the line. One reason the US places emphasis on its return is the fact that the Chinese are very intelligent. Given time they can and will replicate and improve on what ever the US has. If such an occurance would take place the US could see its tactical advantage disappear and then it will be more than just 24 airmen at stake. It will be the entire Pacific theater.

A conspriacy theorist would point out that this whole fiasco was engineered by teh Chinese. the Chinese ARE very intelligent. No one knows if the past few months of increased agressiveness in intercepting US aircraft was not a prelude to intentionally knocking one down and claiming it for their own.

The pilot may have to remain in China to take responsibility, but the crew must be returned.

[Edited by AsidRayne on 04-04-2001 at 11:02 AM]

[pennypinch]

I love the smell of jingoism in the morning...

:rolleyes:

[tongyang]

I thought it's pretty clear why they don't want to return the soldiers right now. They clearly want the plane. But if they only return the soldiers US is sure going to ask "why can you return one thing but not the other?" ;)

[tongyang]

BTW, somebody in my school that I used to go to (I graduated) posted this message in the local newsgroup. I agree with this view.

Tony Karon writes:
"It's hardly surprising Beijing hasn't rushed to hand over a U.S. spy plane and its 24-man crew involved in a mid-air collision with a Chinese air force fighter on Sunday. To understand why, flip the script for a moment: Imagine a Chinese plane flying a surveillance mission off the Florida coast colliding with an Air Force F-16 sent on an aggressive monitoring mission. The U.S. fighter goes down and the pilot is lost; the Chinese plane is forced to land on U.S. soil. The incident occurs at a moment when China is about to supply a package of sophisticated weapons to Cuba (possibly including the very same model spy plane now in U.S. hands); is planning to deploy a missile shield that would neutralize the U.S. nuclear arsenal; and has signaled that curbing U.S. regional ambitions is to become the organizing principle of its military doctrine. Imagine further that the incident comes two years after Chinese bombs had destroyed (albeit inadvertently) a U.S. embassy in Europe... It's unlikely Americans would feel in a particularly forgiving mood, either."

[apmiller]

What most folk I think worrie about is what are they doing to the crew members? Are they being treated well or is it time to send in black ops and go to war?

When ever you have an issue with two countries like this there is the standard respons of, "That's it! This will be the start of world war three!"

Things have never gone well between US and China, anyone think this could start something more military between our two countries?

[WTF_THATS_INSANE]

Tony had some interesting points tongyang... and I do feel a little more understanding for their position after reading that... BUT... I disagree that the US would do the same thing. (For one thing the US plane didnt colide with the f-8... the US plane flys a straight path.. it is the size of a commercial jet, and probably handles like a commercial jet, whereas the F-8 is the size of a fighter. The F-8 certainly could have changed his trajectory if he wanted to. I think it was a game of chicken... to wich the stupid chinese guy lost... DUH... thats like chicken with a honda civic, and a 1970 Cadilac Seville) I think that our form of govt., and our compliance with other world powers, would force us to follow the international law, something china has pretty clearly not done. I feel quite confident this plane was in international waters also... It was a regular surveilance mission, and to say that it was in chinese airspace would insinuate that we went into their airspace all the time wich we do not. It was a regular surveilance mission, nothing more... something we have EVERY RIGHT to do... and while china does not perform these missions, its not because they dont have the RIGHT to do it, but rather beacuse they dont have the desire, or capability to.

We would not have the desire to perform surveilance so heavily on china, if they behaved responsibly. They DO have regional ambitions, and they DO have nuclear weapons, wich is why we have surveilance there... If they are thinking about launching a nuke... we want to know BEFORE they do it... pretty reasonable no?

In addition China does not give their citizens basic liberties, and they regularly abuse their own citizens. Remember Tianamen Square... People keep bringing up how we accidently bombed their embassy... if china cares so much about the lives of their people, why do they run over them with tanks, and force them to work in inhumane conditions, and stifle all forms of freedom?

So... to add to your script a little... you need to make the US a country who abuses their citizens of many forms of freedom, shows desires for the Geographical expansion of our country, and the willingness to use force to obtain it.

This is something that the US is not... I think all nations right now KNOW that the US would NOT instigate the use of nuclear weapons, I don't think that we could say the same about china.



And APMiller... I dont think it directly would, but It is not to say that this could start us down that road. I hardly think america would be willing to wage a foriegn war against another nuclear superpower, simply because they stole a plane, and held hostage 24 of our soldiers. However that isn't to say that this couldn't cause economic sanctions, and trade problems. that seems highly likely to me.

[OC]

Notice how the rest of the world has largely remained silent on this issue?

-o

[jase71]

Originally posted by AsidRayne
"Spying"?
No. its called survellance. No one was "caught" spying. This was surveillance. Spying involves suspicious or unlawful entry for the purpose of gathering intelligence.

Per Websters:

v. spied (spd), spy·ing, spies (spz.)
v. tr.
1.) To observe secretly with hostile intent.
2.) To discover by close observation.
3.) To catch sight of: spied the ship on the horizon.
4.) To investigate intensively.

Seems to me that what the plane was doing matches very closely with numbers 2 and 4, and if you consider the equipment on board as "viewing" electronic emissions, it would fit number 3 as well.

Nowhere does it say anything about suspicious or unlawful entry. You don't have to be in a place to spy on it.



This was surveillance, a regular part of every military in the known world. We fly planes be cause we are the biggest dog on the block.

Are you saying that might makes right? 'Cause that's the reasoning that bullies use for their actions, and the same reason China could use for their regional actions. China is the biggest dog in the Southeast Asian block, does that give them the right to act as they do?

Might does NOT make right. Might gives you the ability, but does NOT give you the right.





Added to that, this plane is not exactly a stealth fighter. Its is the exact opposite of a stealth fighter. It emits radar up the wazoo. Its a freaking bloody beacon for crying out loud. Its a huge red barn.......in the middle of a cornfield........on fire......at night! Make no qualms about it, this sucker is VISIBLE.... as in NON COVERT.

Ah... but if we have all this super-secret technology on board, then China has no idea of what the plane is doing up there, do they? You don't have to be sneaky to spy. Sometimes being obvious is the best cover.

[froggystyle]

After extesively reading CNN reports I am forced to change my view on this matter entirely. The plane was in fact a surveilance plane...it was not a covert operation and it seems most likely that this plane was enticed into chinese air space by other small chinese planes one of which was not carefula nd hit the plane.

this was not a covert operation.....

they were in plain view no masking no stealth... i hardly think you can call that spying...if it is, it's moronic spying ...its like saying "hey.... look at me im a spy"

its like i was standing in the street staring at a hous and somebody comes out and starts messing with me saying i have no right to be there. Then they start pushing me and finally kick me onto their lawn and says i was trespassing.....

no i changed my mind....China is wrong

[jase71]

Originally posted by froggystyle

its like i was standing in the street staring at a hous and somebody comes out and starts messing with me saying i have no right to be there. Then they start pushing me and finally kick me onto their lawn and says i was trespassing.....

no i changed my mind....China is wrong

To be closer to the truth, it's like you were standing in the street with binoculars and a ultra-sensitive microphone trained on someone's house when they come out and push you around.

You probably provoked them into it, but that doesn't mean what they did was right. Both sides bear some responsibility, although the person doing the pushing is more at fault than the "spy".

[WTF_THATS_INSANE]

Per Websters:

v. spied (spd), spy·ing, spies (spz.)
v. tr.
1.) To observe secretly with hostile intent.
2.) To discover by close observation.
3.) To catch sight of: spied the ship on the horizon.
4.) To investigate intensively.

Seems to me that what the plane was doing matches very closely with numbers 2 and 4, and if you consider the equipment on board as "viewing" electronic emissions, it would fit number 3 as well.


There are many definitions of this word... the one everyone is referring to is #1. When we say our country spied on your country... we certainly dont mean that we viewed your country accross the horizon. LOL. when we use this word we mean it in the 1st sense, and the US is not guilty of Spying on china, because we CURRENTLY have no hostile intent. we were not "observing secretly" so that we would know when to drop a bomb on them... Hell we werent even "Observing Secretly" We were simply observing... I dont think the chinese are stupid enough to think that maybe we were flying our big 737 sized plane just for kicks up and down their coast, I am sure they knew that it was a surveilance plane.






This was surveillance, a regular part of every military in the known world. We fly planes be cause we are the biggest dog on the block.


You partially quoted him here, and it was misleading what you quoted...

he continued on to say that


As the big dog, we have many enemies...


THAT was his point... not that because were big we CAN, but rather because were big we HAVE to.







Ah... but if we have all this super-secret technology on board, then China has no idea of what the plane is doing up there, do they?


Hell yes they know what we are doing there. That was his point... we have a plane that is simply on a surveilance mission, they know that, and we know that... we know that they know, and they know we know they know :) It is completely legal for us to fly surveilance missions in international waters... if they have something private that they want to keep to themselves... they would be wise to use some method other than a cell phone. thats just how this game works... and thats the international law... their isnt anything illeagle about listening in open territory... they could do the same to us.

[froggystyle]

here here

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by overclocked
Notice how the rest of the world has largely remained silent on this issue?

-o

Hey, would you want to take sides against either the U.S. or China?

[eSDee]

No kidding other coutries would be shooting themselves in the foot at this point if they took sides. This a highly volatile situation after all. Why involve your country in something that could escalate into sanctions and even war.

Also, why are people changing their identities on this thread before they post a controversial reply? Come on, have some balls not to be anonymous.

[Butch]

I haven't weighed in on this, so here I go . . .

Basically, spying is the international equivalent to masturbation. Everyone knows everyone else is doing it, but nobody is willing to readily admit it . . . and when you're caught . . . well . . . you just look stupid.

The US had every "legal" right to be flying that plane in international waters with whatever equipment they want on board. The problem is that as much as we'd like to believe that there are international laws, the international arena is an anarchy. States CAN do whatever they choose if they are willing to suffer the consequences.

In the case of the US, we risk losing sensitive information on our spying capabilities - a tremendous loss. And maybe the lives of the crew of the plane - again, a big loss - but . . . and this is going to sound callous . . . the information is of more importance. (Soldiers are replaceable and they signed up for that duty . . . it's a risk of the job)

China, on the other hand, has information to gain - VERY valuable information at that - by inspecting the plane. The downside is that they lose credibility and bargaining power in becoming a true member of the global economy. If they don't touch the plane, all they gain is a bit more credibility - very valuable, but the Chinese government has rarely been one to choose credibility over a bump up in strategic advantage.

As far as the crew goes, China would never touch them . . . no upside and it would simply galvanize the US against China.

Now for those saying that the US would touch a Chinese plane if it landed in the US, I believe that is wrong. To the US, credibility is among the most valuable things we have as a country. My guess is we would have allowed a Chinese official on-site immediately but yes . . . we would have done ALLLL we could with that plane SHORT of boarding it. Basically . . . we would have FAR more to lose by going boarding that plane than we could ever possibly gain. That is not the case for China though.

As for what's going to happen now - my guess is we will get the plane and the crew back fairly shortly after we pay China a certain amount for the "hospitality" they've shown. I seriously doubt there will be an apology on either side - the art of diplomacy is allowing everybody to get out of a situation without losing face.

Finally, none of this would be an issue if the crew had done what they were supposed to do - Destroy sensitive equipment and data. As far as I know, there has been no indication as to whether they have or not - but that should have been their first priority . . . to make sure it didn't end up in Chinese hands. If that means ditching the plane in the ocean, that's what should have happened . . . if it means destroying that stuff before landing safely in China . . . good for them.

[WTF_THATS_INSANE]

1st.. I've never posted here before... I am not some guy who just changed his name to stay anonymous.

2nd... I really like the masturbation anology. very appropriate.


3rd... according to a report I read on CNN, they DID supposedly destroy every bit of data. Who knows about that though.

[Chinpoko_Mon]

Just got this off CNN...


"Our side has said it very clearly that the U.S. side should share all the responsibility and apologize to the Chinese side," Chinese Ambassador Yang Jiechi told CNN."

the last time I checked the meaning of the word share, I don't think it meant for someone to share all of anything... hmmmm...

Anyway, does the statement mean that if the US takes it share of the responsibility and apologize, China will do the same? I wonder....

[speedracer120]

In my opinion, China can keep the freaking plane. I'm sure most of the sensitive equipment was in the nose of the plane anyways. I'm sure the crew has a way of jettisoning the nose easily. The plane itself is old technology any competent engineers could design. If the "sensitive" technology was really that important I'm also sure that they could have shorted the circuits and made it useless.

As for the Chinese gaining new technology, who cares? America is usually the leader in cutting edge tech, military or civilian. It wouldn't take a few years for them to improve on the design, or for the "sensitive" tech to be released in the general public, like say the GPS tech. I pity the man who thinks the GPS was invented for stranded hikers.

The whole point of this "standoff" is to get the soldiers back. While America has been known to "leave behind" its own soldiers and sometimes citizens on rare occasions, it's not good PR.

My lame $0.02

[jase71]

Originally posted by WTF_THATS_INSANE


Per Websters:

v. spied (spd), spy·ing, spies (spz.)
v. tr.
1.) To observe secretly with hostile intent.
2.) To discover by close observation.
3.) To catch sight of: spied the ship on the horizon.
4.) To investigate intensively.

Seems to me that what the plane was doing matches very closely with numbers 2 and 4, and if you consider the equipment on board as "viewing" electronic emissions, it would fit number 3 as well.


There are many definitions of this word... the one everyone is referring to is #1. When we say our country spied on your country... we certainly dont mean that we viewed your country accross the horizon. LOL.

Really? You know exactly what everyone was thinking on this, huh?

It's pretty simple, what we were doing fits multiple definitions of "spying". So we were spying.

Spying can be done from anywhere. Don't our "Spy satellites" listen in on electionic emissions and take pcitures from way the hell up in space? And aren't they still "spy" satellites? If a Russian satellite cruises over the US snapping pictures of military bases and listening to military radio traffic, isn't that spying?





when we use this word we mean it in the 1st sense, and the US is not guilty of Spying on china, because we CURRENTLY have no hostile intent.

And the Russians CURRENTLY have no hostile intent toward the US, but we just kicked a bunch of their diplomats out for "spying".

If I've got a laser microphone trained on your home windows to listen in, a telescope looking in your windows, and I listen in on all your phone calls from my home across the street, I may have no hostile intent, but I'm still spying. I might not even be secretive about it. But I'm still spying on you.

Gimme a break. People complain about all the pc-speak like "differently-abled" and "height challenged" and then turn around and use the same lame excuses to claim it was "electronic surveillance" and not spying.









This was surveillance, a regular part of every military in the known world. We fly planes be cause we are the biggest dog on the block.


You partially quoted him here, and it was misleading what you quoted...

he continued on to say that


As the big dog, we have many enemies...


THAT was his point... not that because were big we CAN, but rather because were big we HAVE to.

Ok... but my point still stands. Because we're the biggest, we have to behave this way? Isn't that STILL
Might Makes RIght? After all, WHY do we have all those enemies? Because we've USED our big stick in the past!
Come on... You can flip the logic too. Luxembourg HAS to spy, because they're the LITTLEST guy on the block, and everyone else is bigger than them!



Ah... but if we have all this super-secret technology on board, then China has no idea of what the plane is doing up there, do they?


Hell yes they know what we are doing there. That was his point... we have a plane that is simply on a surveilance mission, they know that, and we know that... we know that they know, and they know we know they know :) [/B][/QUOTE]

Ok... you say they knew exactly what we were doing there.
If they knew exactly what we were doing there, why are we worried about the plane? Then they should know exactly what it does, what it's capable of, and we shouldn't lose any technology to the Chinese, because they already know, right?

Bull. The Chinese DIDN'T know what that plane was truly capable of. That's why they wanted to see it so badly. That's why they boarded it right away when they got the chance. They knew the plane was listening, but they had no idea the extent or range of it's capabilities. They didn't know if the plane was up listening to CHinese pop radio, or could hear or monitor every bit of communications traffic the Chinese sent out.




It is completely legal for us to fly surveilance missions in international waters... if they have something private that they want to keep to themselves... they would be wise to use some method other than a cell phone. thats just how this game works... and thats the international law... their isnt anything illeagle about listening in open territory... they could do the same to us.

Yep, it's completely legal. No one is arguing that.

However, you can bet, if a Chinese spy plane cruised the West Coast 60 miles off shore, we'd have a couple of fighters flanking it the whole way. And if that Chinese plane made an emergency landing in the US, we'd be inside that thing instantly, finding out what it was capable of.


[Edited by jase71 on 04-05-2001 at 05:32 AM]

[jase71]

Originally posted by Butch
Now for those saying that the US would touch a Chinese plane if it landed in the US, I believe that is wrong. To the US, credibility is among the most valuable things we have as a country. My guess is we would have allowed a Chinese official on-site immediately but yes . . . we would have done ALLLL we could with that plane SHORT of boarding it. Basically . . . we would have FAR more to lose by going boarding that plane than we could ever possibly gain. That is not the case for China though.


Since we've pretty much gutted, stripped, inspected, reassembled and reverse engineered almost every Russian plane that's come into our hands, I have a hard time believing that we would have acted any differently than the Chinese with regard to the plane.

Prior history says we would have behaved exactly the same as them.

[topane]

Originally posted by WTF_THATS_INSANE
We would not have the desire to perform surveilance so heavily on china, if they behaved responsiblyAnd the US behaves responsibly all the time? Every country on this planet, every single one, is trying to further its own agenda. What our country perceives as right, another says is wrong. Ask citizens from other countries what they think of the US, and you'll see that what we think of ourselves is not the view of the rest of the world.

[Butch]

Originally posted by jase71

Originally posted by Butch
Now for those saying that the US would touch a Chinese plane if it landed in the US, I believe that is wrong. To the US, credibility is among the most valuable things we have as a country. My guess is we would have allowed a Chinese official on-site immediately but yes . . . we would have done ALLLL we could with that plane SHORT of boarding it. Basically . . . we would have FAR more to lose by going boarding that plane than we could ever possibly gain. That is not the case for China though.


Since we've pretty much gutted, stripped, inspected, reassembled and reverse engineered almost every Russian plane that's come into our hands, I have a hard time believing that we would have acted any differently than the Chinese with regard to the plane.

Prior history says we would have behaved exactly the same as them.

Those circumstances are very different and are not really comparable. We were in an open arms race with the Soviets. If we were to do something similar right now, that would go counter to any sort of stated policy - whereas at the time that we did it, it was perfectly consistent with our policies at the time. In that sense, our credibility was not compromised in the least at the time.

[jase71]

Originally posted by Butch
[B
Those circumstances are very different and are not really comparable. We were in an open arms race with the Soviets. If we were to do something similar right now, that would go counter to any sort of stated policy - whereas at the time that we did it, it was perfectly consistent with our policies at the time. In that sense, our credibility was not compromised in the least at the time. [/B]

No... that doesn't quite wash. We've "inspected" Cuban planes, and Cuba hasn't been a real threat to us since the Russians removed their missles.

We would probably be much more subtle about it than the Chinese. But let's face it, China is the only other superpower in the world. And if we had the chance to get their latest and greatest technology in our hands for inspection, we'd do it in a heartbeat. We'd do it so it would be difficult to tell we'd done it. And then we'd deny publicly that we'd ever boarded the plane.

After all, haven't we been told lately that China has nuclear missles pointed at the US? Haven't we been educated about the size of their military? Aren't they the new "bad guys" on the block? We'd use the same reasoning we used to inspect the Russian planes.

[WTF_THATS_INSANE]

Ok... you say they knew exactly what we were doing there.
If they knew exactly what we were doing there, then why are we worried about the plane? Then they should know exactly what it does, what it's capable of, and we shouldn't lose any technology to the Chinese, because they already know, right?

How the heck did you make that jump in logic??? All I said was that they knew what we were doing there... Somehow you have equated them "knowing what we were doing" with them understanding all of our technology on the plane? We were there "Spying" or "Performing Surveillance" on them... and they knew that, and that is, in my opinion, our right, but that doesn't mean they knew how our machine's worked, or what data we had gathered. But somehow, you have attempted to wrangle that to "Since they knew we were there, and what we were doing there, they must have known exactly how our electronics work."


Ok... but my point still stands. Because we're the biggest, we have to behave this way? Isn't that STILL
Might Makes Right?

No, if you insist on stating it that way, it would be better stated to say that "might sometimes makes necessity, and necessity makes right." For instance... You'd say the same thing if we executed a citizen of theirs for no reason (And you would be right)... but what if we HAD to do that, to say... keep a nuclear war from starting, or something like that? Then it would be a necessity forced upon us BY our might (After all I sincerely doubt anyone is going to nuke Columbia, so it is not a necessity for them to spy on other nuclear nations). The statement "Might makes right" implies that because were big, it's ok to behave however we want against other countries because there isn't anything they can do about it. That is not true... what IS true is that because we are big, many things affect us, that don’t affect smaller nations, and as a result we have to behave differently than Luxembourg for instance.


As far as the definition of spying... Lets replace the word SPY with the definition in a sentence...
We spied on china
We Discovered china by close observation?
We Caught Sight of China?
We Investigated China Intensively?
We observed china secretly with hostile intent?

We certainly didn't just catch sight of china... I am pretty sure we have seen it before.
We didn’t discover china, by close observation... I am pretty sure we knew where it was.
We did perhaps investigate china intensively, but I don't think that there is any thing WRONG with this, and I don’t think any other nations CARE if another nation investigates them.
We DID NOT observe secretly with hostile intent though. If we HAD, THEN there would be a problem. This is what I would be concerned about if I were another nation... I wouldn't want anyone observing me secretly with some hostile intent.

So by definition perhaps we were "Spying" (Definition #4), but I think that the definition of spying that gets every nation upset is "observing secretly with hostile intent". To investigate another nation without hostile intent is normal and expected in my opinion.


This country is a great one, and supports many freedoms that others don't. Politicians may make mistakes, and may be corrupt, but that is not different any where in the world, and at least here you can come and criticize your own countries decisions in a forum, whereas if you posted these kind of statements in china, you would probably be arrested.



Most importantly, I would be most interested to hear how you think we SHOULD behave in regards to spying on other nations.

[Butch]

Originally posted by jase71

Originally posted by Butch
[B
Those circumstances are very different and are not really comparable. We were in an open arms race with the Soviets. If we were to do something similar right now, that would go counter to any sort of stated policy - whereas at the time that we did it, it was perfectly consistent with our policies at the time. In that sense, our credibility was not compromised in the least at the time.

No... that doesn't quite wash. We've "inspected" Cuban planes, and Cuba hasn't been a real threat to us since the Russians removed their missles.

We would probably be much more subtle about it than the Chinese. But let's face it, China is the only other superpower in the world. And if we had the chance to get their latest and greatest technology in our hands for inspection, we'd do it in a heartbeat. We'd do it so it would be difficult to tell we'd done it. And then we'd deny publicly that we'd ever boarded the plane.

After all, haven't we been told lately that China has nuclear missles pointed at the US? Haven't we been educated about the size of their military? Aren't they the new "bad guys" on the block? We'd use the same reasoning we used to inspect the Russian planes.



[/B]

Jase, maybe you forget that while sentiment towards Cuba may have changed among the American people and some in the government, there has been no appreciable change in our policies towards them since the cold war ended. Therefore, inspecting a Cuban plane would have little to no effect on our credibility.

As for the Chinese military, it is basically in tatters. Yes, they could certainly defend their country for a while, but China is basically incapable of projecting power of any sort. Their Navy and Air Force is outdated and quite small and their nuclear weapons are also outdated. If I remember correctly, they are still liquid fueled. China does not pose much of a direct threat to the US at this point, it is China's ambitions to upgrade their military that we perceive as dangerous and it is China's potential to effect us indirectly by destabilizing Asia (via Taiwan for instance).

As far as boarding the plane, I still maintain that the US would not do that since it is a very public and stupid way of gaining intelligence. The US could find the same information through cloak and dagger operations and maintain their credibility in the process. For China, the credibility issue is a non-starter, so they don't have a tremendous amount to lose in their minds by boarding the plane . . . especially since it saves them the likely unsuccessful effort of a cloak and dagger operation to discover the same information (If they got anything).

[jase71]

Oh man, this is gonna be a long post. Sorry folks.



Originally posted by WTF_THATS_INSANE

How the heck did you make that jump in logic??? All I said was that they knew what we were doing there... Somehow you have equated them "knowing what we were doing" with them understanding all of our technology on the plane?

We were there "Spying" or "Performing Surveillance" on them... and they knew that, and that is, in my opinion, our right, but that doesn't mean they knew how our machine's worked, or what data we had gathered. But somehow, you have attempted to wrangle that to "Since they knew we were there, and what we were doing there, they must have known exactly how our electronics work."


Fairly simple. If they don't understand the technology on the plane, then they have no idea what the technology is capable of, do they? If they don't know what the technology is capable of, or what technology is on the plane, then they don't really know what the plane is doing, do they? All they really know is that it's flying in circles, and probably spying. They don't know WHAT the plane is monitoring. They don't know if the plane is only listening, or if perhaps it's broadcasting something the Chinese can't detect. They don't know what it can monitor. They don't know if it's a beacon guiding some other operation. They don't really know jack.

If they DID know jack, if they knew exactly what the plane was doing, they'd have a pretty good idea about what kind of technology was on board. Once you know something is possible, it's only a matter of time before you figure out how to do it.




No, if you insist on stating it that way, it would be better stated to say that "might sometimes makes necessity, and necessity makes right."

Even weaker. Necessity is relative to the party involved.
Just because we perceive it as necessity doesn't make it right. The Germans perceived eliminating the Jews as necessity. Did that make it right?



For instance... You'd say the same thing if we executed a citizen of theirs for no reason (And you would be right)... but what if we HAD to do that, to say... keep a nuclear war from starting, or something like that? Then it would be a necessity forced upon us BY our might (After all I sincerely doubt anyone is going to nuke Columbia, so it is not a necessity for them to spy on other nuclear nations).


Huh? First off, your example is weak. How would executing a person from the other country prevent a nuclear war? But I guess that doesn't directly matter. I see what you're trying to get at.

But what does might and power have to do with your example?
Your example works just as well for a small country. What if Luxembourg had to execute a person to prevent Germany from invading? Is a necessity brought on by Luxembourg's might? It's the same situation that you proposed, really...

And isn't it perhaps MORE important for Columbia to spy, since they have no serious weapons of retaliation? Any nuclear power could waltz in and take over Columbia... so isn't it maybe MORE important for Columbia to know what's going on ahead of time, to ward off situations like that?
After all, they can't threaten nuclear war, so they have no ace in the hole.



The statement "Might makes right" implies that because were big, it's ok to behave however we want against other countries because there isn't anything they can do about it. That is not true... what IS true is that because we are big, many things affect us, that don’t affect smaller nations, and as a result we have to behave differently than Luxembourg for instance.

Smaller countries also have problems big countries like the US don't have. The US doesn't have to fear invasion from a mid-sized country like Iraq. Kuwait does. Luxembourg would.

Problems vary with each country. And each country would tell you that they're only doing what they need to to protect themselves. If you postulate that we're just doing what we need to do, then you have to accept it when other countries use the same reasoning.



As far as the definition of spying... Lets replace the word SPY with the definition in a sentence...
We spied on china
We Discovered china by close observation?
We Caught Sight of China?
We Investigated China Intensively?
We observed china secretly with hostile intent?

We certainly didn't just catch sight of china... I am pretty sure we have seen it before.
We didn’t discover china, by close observation... I am pretty sure we knew where it was.

We didn't discover China by close observation. That's ridiculous. But we did discover information about China by close observation, didn't we? Discovery is the gaining of information, not just finding new continents and countries.



We did perhaps investigate china intensively, but I don't think that there is any thing WRONG with this, and I don’t think any other nations CARE if another nation investigates them.

Come on... you wouldn't care if the Russians or the Chinese investigate our military bases intensively, with spy satellites, pictures, and listening to the radio emissions? They do regularly. And we regularly try to stop them, because we don't want them doing that. We care about it. So do they.

We "investigated intensively". That's spying.




So by definition perhaps we were "Spying" (Definition #4), but I think that the definition of spying that gets every nation upset is "observing secretly with hostile intent". To investigate another nation without hostile intent is normal and expected in my opinion.

To be more realistic, I think what gets a nation upset is being observed with the intent to gain information that the nation wants to conceal. This is the crux of spying. Intent really matters very little. You can spy with the best of intentions, and it'll still be spying.

Spying, basically, is observation with the goal of obtaining information which is intentionally concealed.

Let's put this in the context of what really went on.

That plane was in the area most likely for one reason, and one reason only. It was there to gain information about a new Chinese Navy ship that was just launched. The ship was, I believe, still in Chinese waters. The American plane was in international waters, where it had a legal right to be, trying to gain information about a brand new piece of Chinese military equipment in Chinese territory.
Spying? Yes. Legal? Yes.



This country is a great one, and supports many freedoms that others don't. Politicians may make mistakes, and may be corrupt, but that is not different any where in the world, and at least here you can come and criticize your own countries decisions in a forum, whereas if you posted these kind of statements in china, you would probably be arrested.

True enough. No arguments here. I'm not saying China is a wonderful country. They have a lousy track record. I wouldn't want to live there. And America is a vastly more free place to live, and I feel a superior political system.

However, because we view ourselves as a superior system does not give us the right to hold ourselves to a different standard. China is a legitimate country, even if it's a screwed up one. And we should treat them with the same respect we would expect to be treated with.



Most importantly, I would be most interested to hear how you think we SHOULD behave in regards to spying on other nations.

Sure. Read my earlier posts in this thread, and in the other thread on the same topic.

But to sum up:

I'm not saying we shouldn't spy. We obviously have to.
And other countries obviously spy on each other and us.

Two points, however. If we feel we have a right to spy, then we need to accept that other countries also have a right to do the same. And if we get upset when spied upon, we need to accept that other countries will be upset when they find us spying on them. We do not have exclusive rights to the action, and we should not be surprised when the country is upset, or tries to prevent our spying.

Second, if we're going to spy, then we have to be prepared to suffer the consequences of our actions. If we weren't willing to accept the risk that the Chinese might gain access to the plane, the plane never should have been put in a position where it had a chance to be taken. Yes, the plane had a legal right to be there. Yes, the Chinese did something really stupid when they crashed into it. But a legal right to do something does not remove the element of risk from doing it. I have a legal right to drive my car down the street. That doesn't mean it's garunteed to be safe. If I can't accept the risk, I shouldn't drive, even if I have a legal right to do it.

[Edited by jase71 on 04-05-2001 at 09:02 AM]

[jase71]

Originally posted by Butch

Originally posted by jase71
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Butch
Jase, maybe you forget that while sentiment towards Cuba may have changed among the American people and some in the government, there has been no appreciable change in our policies towards them since the cold war ended. Therefore, inspecting a Cuban plane would have little to no effect on our credibility.

Huh? So our credibility is relative to the situation?
It's just fine to inspect the plane if we think we're threatened, but it's not ok if they're not a threat?

Don't you think the Chinese view US as a threat? They ought to after we bombed the crap out of their embassy. Even if it was an accident. And we're selling arms to Taiwan, a territory China desperatly wants to keep. We're arming what they view as a territory so that territory can break away from them.

The same logic we used to inspect Russian planes can be used by them to inspect ours.

[QUOTE]
As far as boarding the plane, I still maintain that the US would not do that since it is a very public and stupid way of gaining intelligence. The US could find the same information through cloak and dagger operations and maintain their credibility in the process.

<chuckle> Yes, let's do it by cloak and dagger and maintain our credibility.

Actually, I think we're just gonna have to disagree on this one, because there's no way to determine what the US would do. History says they'd board it. But history is only a guide, not a predictor of the future.

As a matter of fact, it might come down to what type of plane landed. I could see them leaving a fighter alone.
Or a cargo plane. Or a transport. But if a new, relatively secret Chinese spy plane landed, I think we'd be all over it. I just think we'd be MUCH more subtle about it, and the public would never know we touched it. Too much information to gain for military types to turn it down.
Especially since it's Chinese, the only country that could at least potentially pose a threat to us.

[mcs328]

I feel a war coming on. Or some navy SEAL/Green Beret action. Not going to be pretty at all.

[jase71]

Nah. Too much at stake between the two countries.

If it was Iraq, or Libya, or Iran that did it, we'd send in some Seals, just destroy the plane, and probably airmail a bunch of cruise missles to say Thanks.

But not only is China still a major military threat in the world, they're also a potentially HUGE economic market.

The thought of all those lost dollars will make people stop and think where the threat of war wouldn't. Sad to say, money often means more than lives.

[Thunder]

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/05/china.aircollision.02/popup.exclude.html

Thats an image of the plane in china...from a satellite. I think this image in itself is a statement...of how close China can be monitored...and just how easy spying is!

[WTF_THATS_INSANE]

I agree whole heartedly that we would never go to war. In addition to the economic impact that it would have... china is a nuclear power, and that more than anything scares me. think about it... if we start winning, and china knows we are going to win... what would they have to lose by nuking us? with the possobility of a nuclear war in the picture... I think the threat of a full scale world war has been greatly reduced... no one is willing to risk it... and I am very glad.

I REALLY feel like I have alot rebuttals to your statement jase, but I am at work, and my boss keeps walking by, and I'm not doing what I'm SUPPOSED to be doing :) , and I don't feel like I'm going to be able to persuade you, just like I am quite sure you will not be able to persuade me (not because I'm not willing, but just because we see things differently).

so this is really a waste of our time, because I think it would take forever to try and make you see all of my points... and vice versa for you. maybe after I made all my points, and explained them fully... and you made all yours and explained them fully, I would agree with you. or maybe you would agree with me. but then I would have spent too many hours of my life, convincing one other human being of something that he or I could do nothing about, and that seems like a waste of time.

Instead... Do me one favor... seriously...

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sdc/tiananmen.html

go here. THIS IS CHINA'S GOVT. and THIS IS WHY WE SPY ON THEM. and THIS IS WHY WE CANNOT LOOK UPON CHINA AS A LEGITIMATE NATION.


or go here...

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/china/gallery/g1.htm

PLEASE GO AND LOOK. the second one is Amnesty International.

[jase71]

You're probably right, WTF. Most of what we're arguing is really just semantics, and shadings of meaning, not core issues of this. We've been arguing intent, and possibilities, but we probably aren't that far apart on what we think should really happen with the situation.

And I've spent way too much time on this at work also.
Luckily, for me, it's a slow day.

In fact, I'd only have one minor disagreement with your last post.

You're completely right that China is a human rights nightmare, and that Tiananmen was a travesty, and the way they treat dissidents is reprehensible.

My only difference is that I think we have to treat them as a legitimate government, albeit an oppresive one, because they DO rule China, and the government at least began with a popular revolution, even if it's long since been corrupted and twisted. We don't have to like it. We can try and change it. But for the time being, the current government is the one in place, and we need to deal with it. We'll get farther in the long run by treating the government as legitimate, and then trying to get the Chinese to change their government than we ever will just refusing to acknowledge the current government is legit.

[Chinpoko_Mon]

Who are WE to decide whether or not China is a legitimate nation? Have we (the US) at one time in our history conduct such atrocities (treatment of Native Americans/Slavery)?

Every country grows at its own pace and grows out of necessity. Thus every country has it's own culture.....

We don't spy/conduct surveillance on China, just because it's China. We spy on the entire world because we want to be prepared for whatever may come. Do you think we do not spy on countries who do not nuclear capability? and are in fact, of no threat to us? It's always better "To know than not to know"....Cuz you never know where the next "Saddam Hussein or Hitler" might come and bite you in the a$$...

I don't this thread was meant to persuade others to see you side of the coin. But more so, to discuss and exchange points of view on the matter. I love these threads... makes you think... and yes, it's hurting my brain... http://www.gotapex.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[apmiller]

The only reason we and everybody else spies is because we are all paranoid by nature. Spying will always be there. Larger counties can see whatever they want at any time that I’m sure. “Look at that silly American typing nonsense in a forum! Ha ha! Those stupid American dogs!”

Does China have the right to hold our crewmen to question them? Sure they do, they got to protect what’s theirs.
Do they have the right to keep us from them? NO! We should have full access to them so we can ask our own questions.
Then there’s the plane…So what if they have it. So what if they strip it down to learn all it’s secretes. What will they learn? Certainly nothing of any real importance, our government is just mad because they don’t like anyone touching our stuff!

China will do what they will with the crewmen and then the US will work out away to get them back peacefully. With the whole world watching these events, no one will cause any real trouble. Though I’m sure our country can kiss that plane good bye. No way they will ever get that back!

[ethiopianbuffman]

Ok, I know you all have views on this, but this is how it is going to go down.

US will not fully apologize but will issue remorse statement.
China will go over the whole plane without taking it apart and return it in one piece.
The US men will stay on the island a little bit longer, treated uncruelly, and then be returned.

Why will China return the men?
2 reasons: 2008 Olympic Games and World Trade Organization.

The US holds the power on both of these. The Chinese are afraid that the US will not support their bid for the 2008 Summer Olympic Games and not support thier admittance into the WTO. Both are very critical for them. Why do you think that they allowed Wang Zhizhi to play for the Dallas Mavericks.

Worst Case Scenario:
China refuse to return plane, Kills hostages. WWIII, the Nuclear War, and everyone is dead.

In the long run, there will be a WWIII, esp if the US sells the destroyers and missile defense system to Taiwan, we will all be up the creek (time to move to hickval so we won't be bombed).

I am an American Chinese. Check the order I put it in. Since the US and Chinese did sign an agreement to reduce the amount of arms sales to taiwan, the sale a missile defense system would be a step backward. Taiwan doesn't really want to be blown out of the water or jeopardize their relations with China because of all the businesses expanding to the Mainland. And with all the nuclear power that China does have, (more than us, because we signed a no nuclear weapons treaty), it is not good to mess with China, even though we have nuclear weapons and missile defense systems (mind you that if we blow a nuke up in midair, it will explode and still leave nuclear debris in the air which in the long run could be just as bad).

I do not favor one country more than the other, I just want to live basically. I mean why could we pick on Russia or Haiti or Cuba, or something, I mean, if China had the right military equipment they could team up with India or something and invade us and swarm our streets.

That is all, but in the long run everything will happen the way it was meant to be. China will return what is ours, and we will do nothing, even though we are removing their favored nation status because Bush is a moron and wants to spend our budget on saving us $750 a year in the tax cut instead of putting it to pay off the national debt, which could have been paid off in 10yrs, and drill in Alaska to ruin our enviorment even more. I am a republican, but Bush is an idiot. That is why we are in a recession.

EbM
Peace out, and donate food to the ethiopians!