A question for all the G|A lawyers

[jmac87]

Just got finished watching 8mm. Good movie, even with all the gore and wack porn. But I have a question: Multiple times people were asked if they were cops or had any affiliation with law enforcement. My friend says that even undercover officers have to tell the truth. Is this right or was it just something made up for the movies? Thanks

[hapoo]

God i hated that movie :disa:
That was one F'd up movie.

[cruelpupet]

no its true. Law enforcement agents must identify themselves when asked.

[The Happy Squirrel]

yehaq but lots of times they dont cuase they are undercover for a reason, so ppl dont know that they are cops, and they ppl who are arrested dont know they law well enough to pick up on this fact so they jsut lie

[Ice-9]

Yeah, I've been to parties where every person coming in the door was asked if they were a law enforcement agent. I'm not sure what happened if they said yes, though - I'm not sure you could deny them entry on those grounds.

[TheLoneGunman]

At the risk of being flamed again, I must disagree.

They do NOT have to identify themselves. Further, they can go out of their way to conceal their identities. (Some of this is first hand knowledge)

I am *NOT* a lawyer, but I have played them on TV (LA Law, Matlock, etc.)

[cruelpupet]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
At the risk of being flamed again, I must disagree.



As soon as I read this, I thought of one of my favorite comics. PVPOnline

http://www.fredonia.edu/students/depp5980/gotapex/pvp20010326.gif

http://www.fredonia.edu/students/depp5980/gotapex/pvp20010327.gif

http://www.fredonia.edu/students/depp5980/gotapex/pvp20010328.gif


Please do not toake offense to this TLG, I just thought it was funny.

[INeedAVacation]

Uhhh....hmmm....I kinda agree with TLG, they don't have to identify themselves per say but they can't lie. They can side step the question by saying stuff like, "do I look like a cop?" or with sarcasim. They just can't lie...I think. I am probably right 'cause I feel smarter after sleeping in a Holiday Inn.....or whatever that commercial is for, yeah, you know the one.

[TheLoneGunman]

Here is where I think the origin of the "can't lie" myth came from...

If a cop lies and then he is called to testify, the rest of his testimony will be called into question. Now, this is sometimes, but not always harmful to the case.

Example 1: Cop arrests perp1 for threatening the president. Cop went into an anti-government rally and stated that he was not law enforcement and after befriending perp1, gets him to say that he wants to hurt the president. If the cop's statement is the only evidence and he is shown to have lied about his identity, then why should anyone believe what he claims was perp1's statement.

Example2: Cop arrests perp2 for willfully defrauding the government of tax money and failure to file a correct tax return because of statements perp2 made on message boards in regards to a certain e-store. Cop gained access to the board by stating that he was not law enforcement. Since the messages can be authenticated and stand on their own, a conviction is much more likely.

There are more complicated issues such as "expectation of privacy" and the Supreme Court is considering such a case this term (dealing with ifrared surveillance). I was involved in one of these cases (legal assistance, not perp) and so I await the outcome. If they rule cops can perform these warrantless searches, then lying about whether you are a cop is less of a big deal. On the other hand, if they crack down on cops, then judges might be more likely to toss out evidence where the cop lies about his status.

Outside of my post, I have yet to read any sort of reference to a law or rule. This concerns me. What basis (other than urban legend and TV) do you have for making these statements? People's lives and freedom could be at stake and this is a very serious matter

[Leon]

I found this interesting... I dunno if it means anything though.

http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/drug_crimes/attempt_purchase.htm

[Jpeace121]

The fact that cops don't have to divulge their identity should come as a suprise to no one. Cops lie, cheat, steal, and deceive all the time. Sometimes they are more crooked than the people they bust.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Jpeace121
The fact that cops don't have to divulge their identity should come as a suprise to no one. Cops lie, cheat, steal, and deceive all the time. Sometimes they are more crooked than the people they bust.

sometimes?

there is a certain proportion that are good people - they wanted to be cops because their fathers were cops, and they see it as a noble profession and want to help people. if you watch the show cops, tho (and hell yeah i do) almost all of them say at some point why they became cops:

you don't have to be cooped up inside all day (read: can't have a desk job cuz i can't read)

it's exciting (read: they all laughed at me in high school but now i gots a gun)

that would be the other 90% of them - remember those people who graduated high school in five years and flunked out of community college?

oink.

[Jpeace121]

Originally posted by welfareloser

Originally posted by Jpeace121
The fact that cops don't have to divulge their identity should come as a suprise to no one. Cops lie, cheat, steal, and deceive all the time. Sometimes they are more crooked than the people they bust.

sometimes?

there is a certain proportion that are good people - they wanted to be cops because their fathers were cops, and they see it as a noble profession and want to help people. if you watch the show cops, tho (and hell yeah i do) almost all of them say at some point why they became cops:

you don't have to be cooped up inside all day (read: can't have a desk job cuz i can't read)

it's exciting (read: they all laughed at me in high school but now i gots a gun)

that would be the other 90% of them - remember those people who graduated high school in five years and flunked out of community college?

oink.

Very good points. Although, after some thought, I have determined that my first post was a vast understatement, re: sometimes, as you pointed out. I would say that in fact your ratio of good cops to bad cops is optimistic as well. I would put it more at around 95% bad. Suey.

:woo:Hi, I'm a cop. Allow me to use unnecessary force and put your life in danger.:johnwoo2:

[m0j0]

i have had more exposure to cops than was ever necessary. cops will arrest you for the stupidest things without any proof or regard for the truth. why not? it's not their butts in the slammer. if they are wrong, then it is just "an inconvenience" for you. oops. no big deal to them. of course, truth is that people can lose their jobs, miss a flight, etc, from being in jail for their "mistake."

[cruelpupet]

I dont know how the cops on the west coast are, but here in NYC & NY State the cops are great. Most are nice, and they don't harass you, unless you give them reason to. That is unless its the middle of the month, then they have their quotas. Yes, quotas are real, and they are stil in effect.

[Jpeace121]

Originally posted by cruelpupet
I dont know how the cops on the west coast are, but here in NYC & NY State the cops are great. Most are nice, and they don't harass you, unless you give them reason to. That is unless its the middle of the month, then they have their quotas. Yes, quotas are real, and they are stil in effect.

Well consider yourself lucky, re: cops in NY. And yes, to second your sentiment, quotas are alive and well in law enforcement.

[m0j0]

well, here we have the sheriff's deputies, that all just wanna lock you up. i mean, maybe not, but i know a lot of ppl that have the misfortune of never having their say.

i better not say too much, in case they wanna seek their revenge! sad state of affairs when you gotta think that way!

[eSDee]

Damn this is a pretty juicy thread. Some serious bashing going on.

Not all cops are bad but I agree that with the ratio of bad to good police is big enough that you can't really expect to be treated fairly during an encounter. If you are, consider yourself lucky. I was once arrested in South Carolina for drinking under age, and when they arrested me they slammed me into a wall twice! I wasn't even resisting I swear! Anyhow when I got out of jail the next day I looked at the report against me and it said that I was throwing beer bottles and swearing at the police. I couldn't believe that shit! I knew that they had to have done that in case I tried to file any report against them for brutality. Bastards!

At any rate I don't really trust any cops right off the bat, but I don't want to believe that they are all bad either. I am upset there is so much corruption, and at the same time I am glad that there is someone to take care of the violent criminals.

[Ice-9]

Interesting link, Leon. I found it odd for two reasons:

1. I really did think that they couldn't lie, or else it would give you a defense on the grounds of entrapment.

2. I also believed that cops were NOT allowed to sell or represent the intent to sell drugs, rather that they had to buy or ask you if you knew where to get them. Maybe that was another myth?

In any case, I'm not involved with the drug culture of my scene enough to be concerned, but I would be interested to know what the laws and precedents really are.

[cruelpupet]

Originally posted by EsDeeLoco
Damn this is a pretty juicy thread. Some serious bashing going on.

Not all cops are bad but I agree that with the ratio of bad to good police is big enough that you can't really expect to be treated fairly during an encounter. If you are, consider yourself lucky. I was once arrested in South Carolina for drinking under age, and when they arrested me they slammed me into a wall twice! I wasn't even resisting I swear! Anyhow when I got out of jail the next day I looked at the report against me and it said that I was throwing beer bottles and swearing at the police. I couldn't believe that shit! I knew that they had to have done that in case I tried to file any report against them for brutality. Bastards!

At any rate I don't really trust any cops right off the bat, but I don't want to believe that they are all bad either. I am upset there is so much corruption, and at the same time I am glad that there is someone to take care of the violent criminals.




Maybe I dotn see the bad side of cops as much because I am a White, normal looking (dont dress like a thug, or dye my hair), male.

There was only 1 time that I didnt get a chance to have my say...and it was quota related (Speding ticket on the 15th of the month), and even then he gave me a small breeak on my speed(10mph over instead of 15).

[sbp]

Your right we don't need those "bad" cops. Whenever someone busts into your house blow their crooked asses away! :johnwoo2: And then some liberal politician wanker will throw your arse in jail to be fresh meat for Big Al. You can't be allowed to defend yourself against criminal vermin so you need to be made an example out of!

Yes quotas are still going on in colleges, businesses, and in government. :disa: :puke: But soon they will be ended no matter how much special interest groups protest. :thumbup:

-------

"Undercover police in Pompano Beach, FL, arranged to sell two pounds of cocaine. The buyers turned out to be undercover officers from the Fort Lauderdale, FL. police." :heh:

[Edited by sbp on 04-11-2001 at 05:32 AM]

[m0j0]

Originally posted by Ice-9
Interesting link, Leon. I found it odd for two reasons:

1. I really did think that they couldn't lie, or else it would give you a defense on the grounds of entrapment.

2. I also believed that cops were NOT allowed to sell or represent the intent to sell drugs, rather that they had to buy or ask you if you knew where to get them. Maybe that was another myth?

In any case, I'm not involved with the drug culture of my scene enough to be concerned, but I would be interested to know what the laws and precedents really are.

i thought entrapment was when they say "hey, kid....wanna buy some dope?" then sell it to you. i think you gotta ask them....like "hey, wanna sell me some dope?"

of course, i just see stuff in the movies. i don't do that shite....i don't do nuttin bad.

[TheLoneGunman]

Originally posted by m0j0

Originally posted by Ice-9
Interesting link, Leon. I found it odd for two reasons:

1. I really did think that they couldn't lie, or else it would give you a defense on the grounds of entrapment.

2. I also believed that cops were NOT allowed to sell or represent the intent to sell drugs, rather that they had to buy or ask you if you knew where to get them. Maybe that was another myth?

In any case, I'm not involved with the drug culture of my scene enough to be concerned, but I would be interested to know what the laws and precedents really are.

i thought entrapment was when they say "hey, kid....wanna buy some dope?" then sell it to you. i think you gotta ask them....like "hey, wanna sell me some dope?"

of course, i just see stuff in the movies. i don't do that shite....i don't do nuttin bad.

I do consult on drug cases (exclusively for the defense and mostly in federal cases) although I am not a lawyer. I have also devised some case strategies as well as written briefs in cases (sometimes successfully).

Ice-9 --> I think you were correct. Lying gives rises to a defense but that is all it is. See the examples in my post earlier in this thread.

Entrapment --> (legal definition) The inducement, by law enforcement officers or their agents, of another person to commit a crime for the purposes of bringing charges for the commission of that artificially-provoked crime.

This has two important components. First is it MUST be by a cop or someone they are DIRECTLY controlling AT THAT TIME. In the movie Entrapment , Sean Connery says that he is not "entrapping" Catherine Zeta-Jones because "that is something cops due to criminals." That analysis is correct. Another example is a snitch. If "Sammy the Snitch" coerces you to be involved in an illegal activity and is not specifically told how to act in the situation with you (by cops) then it is legal. (i.e. He can either be given general instructions and then he acts on his own or maybe he decides to snitch after he ropes you. Either case is NOT entrapment)

The second component is "artifical provocation." If a cop ask you to drive his car laden with coke to the next town and offers you an outrageous sum to do it, it is not entrapment if they can show that you have ever used or sold drugs in the past (even an unrelated drug). This is because they say the "drug culture" is not foreign to you. On the other hand, if you are completely clean and you get this "offer you can't refuse" you can claim entrapment, because a normal person would take the deal even though they are not a criminal. A good rule of thumb is that if you have a criminal history (even if not convicted) or they can show you have independantly done other "bad things" you are likely going to fail on an entrapment defense.

As far as bad cops, I was involved in a case in Dallas with a very bogus search (they turned up a meth lab). It took almost 4 months for the guy to get out of prison, although the minute the Federal judge (Barefoot Sanders0 first heard the case he was ready to throw it out. I think this was related to the fact that since the lab actually existed the government didn't want to let this guy go even though the search was completely bogus (I can try to find the cite because it is pretty funny to read how the cops explain their psychic abilities to "sense" the lab)

[Ice-9]

Okay, thanks, TLG. That clears things up a bit. If I'm understanding you properly, my preconceptions were both partially correct - the way I was thinking about it, it would be entrapment for the cop to offer to sell, just not if you ask him.

I'm debating about whether to pass this info on to some of my friends. I don't want them getting arrested, but I wouldn't mind if some of the people they hang out with got locked up. Specifically, their dealers. :D But they probably know anyway, huh?

[TheLoneGunman]

Ice-9,

here is what you can pass on...

Since they are all "involved" in the drug culture (even if not selling) and this should be easy for a prosecutor to show, then NONE of them can use the entrapment defense. besides, it rarely works. The majority of the time, if it is legit, the prosecutor will see the case is bogus and drop it. If it ever goes to a jury, there is a low chance of acquittal UNLESS there is "jury nullification"

Jury nullification -- When the jury blatently ignores the law and does what they think is "right" (ex. OJ criminal trial) Defense lawyers pray for this stuff, but it rarely happens except in high profile (ex. Snoop Doggy Dog) and outrageous cases.