Taiwan: the new Isreal

[pennypinch]

Does anyone see the similarity? Now we're going to fund another precariously situated country with planes, ships, and missiles. For what? I guess the preservation of democracy, economic interests, but last I checked, we hadn't made a dime from Isreal. I'd even bet, among we Goyish, support for Isreal is a decreasingly popular proposition.

So is the idea we prop these guys up for the next 40 years too? Great. Hey, Georgie, since you're in a philanthropic mood, how's about you start believing in that ol' wives tale "global warming". I know it's far-fetched, but the whole microwave-for-a-planet ain't the best legacy.

[jase71]

[tongue-in-cheek]

We have to defend Taiwan. Who do you think makes all the fancy circuitboards for our multi-billion dollar defense systems? We'd be left gizmo-less in the face of the horrible Red Chinese Army!

[/tongue-in-cheek]

It's economic interests at stake again... just like the Persian Gulf...

Money matters more than logic, lives, or legacies. We'll sell out our future for a 200 point rise in the Dow.

[Edited by jase71 on 04-25-2001 at 10:01 AM]

[zenbooty]

Sure do look like similar strategies. Promote instability in the region, set up an ally as a "dummy" target for our competitors in the region, drawing their attention off the U.S., and maintain the status-quo military demand that keeps our militaristic economy running.

One of these days its gonna come back and bite us in the ass.

[TheLoneGunman]

Originally posted by pennypinch
I guess the preservation of democracy, economic interests, but last I checked, we hadn't made a dime from Isreal.


[open massive flame thrower full throttle]
[turn Light of Reality on]

1. Israel (please spell it correctly) - is the ONLY democracy in the Middle East. Secondly, besides Italy it is the ONLY country in the WORLD that allows truly proportional representation. This means that parties that are very much against Israel still get seats in the Kenesset (Parliment) if they get the votes (and they do). Imagine the US have Socialist, Communist, ethnic, and even anti-government parties that all elect congresspeople who get a real say in government.

1a. I seem to recall GW's daddy sent us over to Kuwait to "fight for democracy and free elections". I can't seem to recall, have they EVER even mentioned an election in the past 10 years since this incident? What about THEIR shameful treatment of "palestinians" (they are the local slave labor class in Kuwait).

2. Are you at all familiar with Israeli weapons that THEY SOLD THE US?? Israeli military technology is one of the most advanced in the world. They sell weapons that are more advanced than our own and that is why we buy them. They are not a nation that is just looking for a handout.

3. In the PRIVATE sector, Israel is one of the biggest technology (R&D) centers in the world. Many of the innovations that you use (including ICQ) are Israeli inventions.

4. Israel gets LOANS from the US, not GRANTS. They actually PAY BACK the US!! Name any other country that pays the US back for their aid INCLUDING INTEREST!

5. The US also gives Israel trade credits. These are like Gift Certificates. They allow Israel to buy US products, but not keep the cash. As a result, it benefits AMERICAN companies (such as the ones you and your family work for). If these programs were stopped, Americans would be hurt more than the Israelis.

I can provide backup and specifics for all of my comments above if requested.

P.S. I have lived in Israel (although not a citizen) so I believe I have some personal background

[pennypinch]

If I remember my anti-semetic propaganda right, I believe Israel (sorry 'bout that earlier!) pays only a fraction of what is loaned to it. Am I wrong?

Not to mention that fact that they're constantly spying on us. Name me another country that receives that level of foreign aid from us that's been caught on numerous occasions doing so?

You make it sound like our aid to Israel is a money-making proposition. It isn't.

[Edited by pennypinch on 04-25-2001 at 11:02 AM]

[TheLoneGunman]

Who paid the US more:

Israel

France


Therefore, I suggest we go back to hating the French and leave the Jews alone.

[fakesurfers]

TLG: I'd like to see documentation for #4. Also, many people consider Turkey to be a part of the Middle East, and Turkey is at least ostensibly a democracy.

[TheLoneGunman]

Originally posted by fakesurfers
TLG: I'd like to see documentation for #4. Also, many people consider Turkey to be a part of the Middle East, and Turkey is at least ostensibly a democracy.

As far as Turkey, if you were one of the millions of Armenians slaughtered by the Turks, in their own homeland, perhaps you would think otherwise. Also, Turkey is extremely repressive. Granted, they do put on more of a show of "elections" and such, but it is still very backward (see the latest developments in Turkish prisons)

As far as the loan issue, you can simply look up the present foreign aid budget:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Israel/aidtoc.html

(click the links to read about the loans and such)

As an aside, look at who we help and despite that who CONSISTANTLY votes AGAINST the US in the UN:

http://www.heritage.org/library/backgrounder/graphics/bg1186tab1.gif

[pennypinch]

Wow, that was more damning than anything I've ever read. Last time we gave them a loan was 1984. They've been grants since then. Those tables also don't show what they've paid; a loan that isn't paid ain't a loan, it's a gift.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html

[fakesurfers]

Well, I read the documentation, and Israel has been getting direct aid since 1985 and this is according to a pro-Israel site. Furthermore, the loans were paid off with US aid. Now, if I loan you money and you pay me back with my money and pay interest with my money, I will not be impressed. Israel is a democracy and we should support them for that, but 3 billion a year??? If they are such a high tech, happening country, why do they need our money?

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by fakesurfers
Well, I read the documentation, and Israel has been getting direct aid since 1985 and this is according to a pro-Israel site. Furthermore, the loans were paid off with US aid. Now, if I loan you money and you pay me back with my money and pay interest with my money, I will not be impressed. Israel is a democracy and we should support them for that, but 3 billion a year??? If they are such a high tech, happening country, why do they need our money?

I'm like 5 minutes ahead of you all day! :)

[jase71]

Damn, you guys weren't supposed to READ the links!

How can a guy win a rhetorical argument if you keep bringing logic and numbers into it?

Geesh!

Heh heh.

Didn't this start out as being about Taiwan?

[fakesurfers]

I agree... I blame the server....

[sbp]

Yes its wrong to help a country defend itself against an agressive bully neighbor. :rolleyes: With such an attitude the free world would have lost the Cold War.

The source of instability in that region is China.

"Global warming" has not been proved yet.

Israel has been selling the Red Chinese weapons. First Israel makes copies of US weapons then they sell it to China. What a pal {not!)

Yes the US needs to stop kissing Israels ass.

"As far as Turkey, if you were one of the millions of Armenians slaughtered by the Turks, in their own homeland, perhaps you would think otherwise." This is another irritating thing. The Armenians want the US to past a resolution saying it was genocide. The Turks don't want that. I say keep the US out of it.

[fakesurfers]

Originally posted by sbp
Yes its wrong to help a country defend itself against an agressive bully neighbor. :rolleyes: With such an attitude the free world would have lost the Cold War.

The source of instability in that region is China.

"Global warming" has not been proved yet.

Israel has been selling the Red Chinese weapons. First Israel makes copies of US weapons then they sell it to China. What a pal {not!)

Yes the US needs to stop kissing Israels ass.

"As far as Turkey, if you were one of the millions of Armenians slaughtered by the Turks, in their own homeland, perhaps you would think otherwise." This is another irritating thing. The Armenians want the US to past a resolution saying it was genocide. The Turks don't want that. I say keep the US out of it.

Thank you Rush Limbaugh!! :laugh:

Back to the Taiwan issue, I think we need to decide who we would rather be friends with: China or Taiwan, our policy of ambiguity is dishonest and immoral. What if China started selling subs and fighter planes to Texas or Massachusetts? We would be pretty pissed. Either it's a country or it isnt.

[zenbooty]

SBP, you're weak-ass rhetoric is really getting tiring. Can't you engage in at least a little bit of thought before speaking, and maybe provide some intellectual backing for your spews? Its not even worth arguing with you these days. You just spit out the same, trite, ultra-nationalistic reactionary propaganda you've been fed over, and over, and over, and over again. I'd like to engage, but can't, so I'll just say you're wrong. Absolutely wrong. You are SOOOOOO wrong!!!

[sbp]

Thank you fakesurfers ydf enabler. :rolleyes:

zenbooty, and your rhetoric isn't tiring and weak-ass? Your intellectualism has been laughable!

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by sbp
Yes its wrong to help a country defend itself against an agressive bully neighbor. :rolleyes: With such an attitude the free world would have lost the Cold War.

Then you should be against NAFTA. For what are tariffs except an effort to protect Mexico/Canada from an "agressive bully neighbor"? Try and reconcile the above with your liberal-hating rhetoric below: "Yes the US needs to stop kissing Israels ass."


Originally posted by sbp

The source of instability in that region is China.
Oh yes, we're done with our imperialistic intentions. Now no-one's allowed to follow the exact pattern of economic and militaristic reckless abandon. Don't want competitors, right? Does "manifest destiny" ring a bell? Your cultural relativity only seems to run for about 24 years, sbp.

Originally posted by sbp

"Global warming" has not been proved yet.
Well, we haven't proven that communism doesn't work either, but you don't see us reigning that particular policy in, do we? Face it, your boy is a crony to oil and big business. He's not even trying to be coy about it. It's shameful, and you can't possible support his continued raping of the environment in the name of the dollar. I'm by no means an environmentalist, but I know a blowjob when I see one.

[zenbooty]

Israel is basically an American colony, created earlier in the century by influential, moneyed American Jewish interests, and supported to this day by monied, influential American Jews. That is the main reason why we continue to bother with them. The political fallout of leaving them to rot would be too much for the current power structure to handle.

Its funny, but from what I hear from people who should know, most of the Israeli-born Jews in Israel are pretty tolerant of the Arabs and Palestinians specifically. Its the hardline Jewish Americans who migrate over there who stir up all the ultra-right posturing and hard-line stances with the Arabs. Buncha nutcases, if you ask me. (And before someone gets all in a huff, I'm not implying ALL American Jews are of the hardline nature. That minority just seems to be the one fueling the fire.)

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
Who paid the US more:

Israel

France


Therefore, I suggest we go back to hating the French and leave the Jews alone.

Uh, who helped America win its freedom (whose going to help us win it back again)? What price would you pay for that?

Stop knocking the French. Your memory may be short, but international memory lasts as long as the empires that comprise them (or it should, anyway).

Who gave us the Statue of Liberty? Whose people bravely fought the Nazi's underground, when they're spineless government rolled over on them? Would you be willing to do the same without a trained army to join?

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by zenbooty
Israel is basically an American colony, created earlier in the century by influential, moneyed American Jewish interests, and supported to this day by monied, influential American Jews. That is the main reason why we continue to bother with them. The political fallout of leaving them to rot would be too much for the current power structure to handle.


A fact that is reiterating itself with the increasingly influential Taiwanese population Stateside. It's a fact: second generation Taiwanese are proportionally overrepresented in higher education (as are Asians generally speaking), and first-generation immigrants consistently make and have more than the median or mean in their given geographic cohort. It's the second coming of Jewish immigrants, except with more money to start.

[TheLoneGunman]

Originally posted by zenbooty
Stop knocking the French. Your memory may be short, but international memory lasts as long as the empires that comprise them (or it should, anyway).

Who gave us the Statue of Liberty? Whose people bravely fought the Nazi's underground, when they're spineless government rolled over on them? Would you be willing to do the same without a trained army to join?

It was the "free French" who took family members of mine and many, many, many others and turned them in to the Nazis for execution even though they Nazis never asked them.

Klaus Barbie, "the butcher of Lyon", was not a "friendly partisan"

If we killed all the French, it would still not be enough (sorry for venting).

They can take back their "Statue" the ungrateful bastards.

Remember when Libya was wrecking terrorism on the world? The French wouldn't even let us take a direct route over their airspace to show Khaddaffi what was up. They still got the benefit and could still look good to their terrorist buddy.

The French are the same people that get all the benefits of NATO without having to pay or provide manpower.

Greedy little men...

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
The French are the same people that get all the benefits of NATO without having to pay or provide manpower.

Greedy little men...

Hmm...seems to me there was a story a few months ago saying we owed billions in UN membership fees. Maybe if we killed all the Americans, it would still not be enough.

You are an angry, bigoted little man, aren't you? I suppose you still harbour a deep hatred against Germans, too, right? :rolleyes:

[TheLoneGunman]

Actually, we PAID OFF our UN debt.

The story is old news.

[zenbooty]

Vive le France!!! Vive le France!!! Lessaiz le bon temps roule!

I'm gulping down snails, cheese, wine, and truffles as we speak...

Another thing we got from the French: the philosophic concept of laissez faire government!