warcraft 3

[tupacboy]

is it out yet??? or when is it finally going to come out???

[sbp]

Not out yet. Maybe out at end of year.

[ProMinx]

we'll have more info on that as soon as we get back from the first day of E-3. They're supposed to show up in force this year, with a great demo.
ProMinx

[gear02]

they're official release date is "when it's finished"

even though we've been waiting forever, we shouldn't rush them. Remember Starcraft? It was delayed forever but it turned out to be the best game ever. I think warcraft 3 will be better.

[apmiller]

I think I heard it would be out this year but don't quote me. It's one of thise games where "If you wait, it will come!" I'm looking forward to some great kick butt gameing with that title.

[ArkiStan]

Originally posted by gear02
...Remember Starcraft? It was delayed forever but it turned out to be the best game ever.

jeez Starcraft....I know some guys who died of sleep deprivation and malnutrition because of that game (not kidding)... I've seen too many people get messed up playing starcraft. They miss all their classes, they miss work (and when they do go to work, they're playing starcraft). I'm sure a lot of you have heard the situation over in Korea for the past several years... I think almost all of the top 20 ranking people in the world are in Korea, including #1. Damn those Korean kids. They have no life.

That's why I was never brave enough to start that game. I'm easily addicted to good things. I learned my lesson from the Streetfighter 2 days when my grades fell and I wasted a fortune...

[ProMinx]

starcraft sucked anyway....
but from what i've been seeing, warcraft 3 will actually be quite enjoyable. I personally believe that Starcraft was Blizzard's biggest mistake (besides ever announcing their release dates or predictions...which have never been closer than 7 months off). Hopefully Warcraft III will help to rectify that error in Blizzard's strategy gaming series...

ProMinx

[Jihforce]

Can't agree with you on that one. That's by far the best designed RTS ever made. You can't really compare Warcraft 3 with Starcraft even if both are RTS, they had different themes. Some people like the Space Sci-Fi games others like Fantasy. Starcraft was well made because it was successful in combining three races into a game and keeping it well balanced. It is a complex game though that can frustrate. But one you get it down, its a lot of fun.

Oh about those Korean kids, I was told by my friend when she went back to Korea that there was an article that said that nearly 75% of the people who log into Blizzard's Battle.net for Starcraft were Korean. Imagine that.

[sbp]

I agree. Starcraft was one of the best RTS games of all times if not the best ever.

[ProMinx]

Starcraft is, by no means, a candidate for best RTS ever. It left out so many critical points in the game design that had already been invented and used in other previous games by other companies. At that point, no game had any excuse not to use 3D landscapes for their maps (and yet both Westwood and Blizzard stuck with the engines they already had...). They should also use variable laws of physics the way that Total Annihilation did, and no matter what you guys say...the game was not well-balanced. The humans never had an advantage until late in the game...when the Protoss woud already have a far greater advantage. The Zerg were only useful in the first few minutes of gameplay, where you had to quickly weaken your enemy so that their development would be hindered until you could overpower them. These kinds of time-critical strategies are signs of poor balancing. I can't give Starcraft even a 45% on my RTS scale...

ProMinx

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by ProMinx
Starcraft is, by no means, a candidate for best RTS ever. It left out so many critical points in the game design that had already been invented and used in other previous games by other companies. At that point, no game had any excuse not to use 3D landscapes for their maps (and yet both Westwood and Blizzard stuck with the engines they already had...). They should also use variable laws of physics the way that Total Annihilation did, and no matter what you guys say...the game was not well-balanced. The humans never had an advantage until late in the game...when the Protoss woud already have a far greater advantage. The Zerg were only useful in the first few minutes of gameplay, where you had to quickly weaken your enemy so that their development would be hindered until you could overpower them. These kinds of time-critical strategies are signs of poor balancing. I can't give Starcraft even a 45% on my RTS scale...

ProMinx

Not all great games have to be in 3D to be considered an awesome game. It was good for its time and its still quite popular. The game is over 3 years old first of all. I have yet to see a RTS that is in full 3D that its worth having fork out $50 for it.
As for one race being better than the other. I have to disagree with you somewhat. RTS games are time critical, that's the way its supposed to be. The thing is, you just can't miss a beat. Use 1 second unwisely, and you're pretty much dead. The upperhand is not which race you chose, is how you play the game. I've won against fairly good players with all three races, and lost to great players the same way so its all about who you play and how you play.

[ProMinx]

Total Annihilation is an older game (i believe, at very least their release dates are very similar) and a better game. Starcrap sucked when compared to Total Annihilation. Even the Red Alert series was far better than Starcrap, and they didn't even go 3-D with either of their games.
ProMinx

[jmac87]

Starcraft is a fun game, but playing online and getting beaten in five minutes by some guy who is playing with his eyes closed and playing two other games at the same time (like some kind of chessmaster) is definitly not. The entire Command and Conquer/Red Alert Series has been awesome.

[DaFunkyUnit]

I played Warcraft 3 at E3, and here's the info that I garnered (sp?):

-It shall be released round Xmas time
-Has 4 races (humans, orcs, elves, and Undead)
-Everything is 3D, landscape, units, characters, buildings, everything (the zoom feature was really tight)
-Theyve incorporated some RPG elements (think Diablo), for ex, Hero Units will be able to pick stuff up (they have an inventory) that will boost their attack/defense/etc levels. Theres also places where you can hire mercenaries
-Levels turn night and day :) this does make a difference, for ex, the elves has a unit called the Night Owl that becomes totally invisible during the night
-Wood is not a resource, the only resources are gold and "Mana Gems" i think... you get it by killing things (they're trying to make the game more battle oriented rather than camping out and monopolizing resources)

thats all i can think of for now... thatll definitely whet your appetites hehe

[ProMinx]

the night elves (not elves) obviously have a few benefits that come out when the sun goes down. also, those mana gems are used to create heroes, heroes are stronger, learn spells, provide extra bonuses to surrounding units, and can be resurrected...for a price.
here come the screenshots...

[ProMinx]

gameplay:
http://www.zing.com/picture/p93069c80b0e2bd0acb078fb781a71999/fe7f139d.jpg
http://www.zing.com/picture/p38efc6fb26244e9f82b00ae1c1c1c40f/fe7f1396.jpg
http://www.zing.com/picture/p9370e3de2724363b05689639f830c396/fe7f138b.jpg

[Edited by ProMinx on 05-21-2001 at 07:17 PM]

[ProMinx]

if you want to see Blizzard's breif description of the game, follow this link (http://www.zing.com/picture/p566ee3ea3e071d5976fc486b7af80bab/fe7f1038.jpg.orig.jpg)

warning: picture is 202 kb

3 cinematic pictures coming after i get back from dinner (not too impressive, but oh well...)

[ProMinx]

Warcraft 3 cinematics...
Orcs charging with the sun un the background:
http://www.zing.com/picture/p1d0af77b6ab7dc168052893c1d00f96a/fe7f109d.jpg
orc on back of dragon-type beast:
http://www.zing.com/picture/p741db9a5aa9956997f41f475a28bd0cc/fe7f1098.jpg
Paladin pointing at screen before running into battle:
http://www.zing.com/picture/p320db56acf47b86e5da50c5610a079d8/fe7f108f.jpg

and that is it...

[gear02]

prominx: all your pictures are down as of 9:15am eastern time may 22.

As for saying starcraft is not a candidate for best RTS, you're mistaken. Starcraft was graphically a very pretty game for it's time. 3D didn't show up in RTS until Myth or Dark Reign 2. TA didn't have pure 3D models, it just had 2D models with terrain.

The innovation of Starcraft was that it had three races. All the other ones had two. Also, the units were incredibly balanced which made for some great games. Also, the three races were vastly different which made that the player had to learn how to play each race seperately. These were all great innovations that current RTSes have used.

Besides, I still haven't seen a good RTS that uses 3D. Most that I've seen can't use 3D to its advantage. Most of them give the freedom to move the camera around, but that causes more of a headache than a good thing. Warcraft 3 actually fixes the camera back on the old viewpoint of Warcraft 2 so you don't have freedom to move it.

[ProMinx]

Everyone knows that Dune 2 was the very first RTS, right?
Dune 2, Dune 200, and now Emperor: the Battle for Dune all had 3 different "races". They were all based in the same race, but radiation and other modifications, be they telepathic or mechanical, made the three teams different enough to consider them as separate races.

I am looking forward to Emperor though...it comes out June 11th, sells for 39.99 on Amazon.com (or 49.95 on EA direct if you want the soundtrack and the three bonus units they're including only if you pre-ordering from them), and is fully 3D. I gotta say that I love Westwood...except for that one game that we won't mention *ahem...Command and Conquer 2: Tiberian Sun* sorry, long cough there...

ProMinx

ps - thanks for the head's up, gear...i noticed that about 40 minutes ago and have been trying to find out what the problem is. check my thread that i already posted over in the suckage/not-so-suckage forum (probably posted it after you mentioned this though).

pss - didn't we love Myth for its 3d though? if only they included some sort of playmode similar to the other games with unit creation and whatnot, rather than "start with these units and battle" gameplay...although I thoroughly enjoyed multiplayer Myth 2 (attained the rank of king or whatever one of the high ranks was) and believe that this mode would be a good side-option to include in other games such as Emperor or Warcraft 3. It would prove an all new type of strategic dominance, and of course I recognize that a large part of the strategic challenge is usually found in managing which units to build and when to spend money...and I enjoy that, but I'd also enjoy seeing this other option...

[CluelessSi]

I never got why ProMinx hates Starcraft so much. It was awesome.
It is very balanced game in that you can tell me or others strategies with different units and there is ALWAYS a counter to it. The timing is very important for all the races and that is one of the unquieness of the races.

You can visit this site (although stopped updates but still very good for strategies and counters)
http://starcraft.strategy-gaming.com/


but no one race is overly stronger then another, For example when ProMinx said that Zerg are useless at the long games, it is not true at all. Zerg can easily overpower many players at the endgame. attacks such as gaurd/musk attack is very effective and can only be used later in the game. and for terrens being weak in beginning shows that you are a weak player. terrens pump out the marines (one of the most versitle units) very early in the game and with combo of bunkers it can create a very strong defensive area.

There are so many things that make Starcraft great. It is still very widely played... Brood wars made it better. the only complain i have is the 12 unit groups and the ghosts are hard to control when locking down. otherwise it is an awesome game.

ProMinx please present a stronger arguement. I really hope you give this game another chance. The graphics might not be the best but it is very good and it runs pretty fast even on substandard computers.

[Edited by CluelessSi on 05-22-2001 at 11:33 AM]

[CluelessSi]

Prominx, can you reply. I really want to hear why u don't like Starcraft so much.

[pkghost]

total anhiliation was by far the worst game ever conceded by a software company. wildfox (or something), the developer, got bought out and soon there after total anhiliation 2 was canceled in production. sorry dude, you must have been warped by a crappy monitor or something because you dont make a bit of sense when you say starcraft is worse then TA.

[ProMinx]

pkghost is just a retard. the developer of total annihilation was Cavedog, and TA2 wasn't actively scheduled for release...but Total Annihilation: Kingdoms was..and it wasn't scrapped, you ignorant fool. TA:K was released and didn't carry the same quality as TA, in my opinion. Besides...why the hell did you use the word "concede"? Concede means to give up or bow to pressures. Not only do I say that Starcraft is worse than Total Annihilation, but also inferior to any imagineable number of other strategy games. Starcraft was not a good game. It does have a huge fan base, but that doesn't make it good. A person is intelligent, but people are stupid and you know it.

The graphics in Starcraft suck.
The ingenuity of including 3 races was...NOT NEW.
The gameplay was mediocre at best.
The "award winning" cinematics look like they were drawn by someone with very poor vision.
The AI was very depressing (not that TA's was great, but it was better).

Pro "Starcraft is shit. Get over it." Minx

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by ProMinx
pkghost is just a retard. the developer of total annihilation was Cavedog, and TA2 wasn't actively scheduled for release...but Total Annihilation: Kingdoms was..and it wasn't scrapped, you ignorant fool. TA:K was released and didn't carry the same quality as TA, in my opinion. Besides...why the hell did you use the word "concede"? Concede means to give up or bow to pressures. Not only do I say that Starcraft is worse than Total Annihilation, but also inferior to any imagineable number of other strategy games. Starcraft was not a good game. It does have a huge fan base, but that doesn't make it good. A person is intelligent, but people are stupid and you know it.

The graphics in Starcraft suck.
The ingenuity of including 3 races was...NOT NEW.
The gameplay was mediocre at best.
The "award winning" cinematics look like they were drawn by someone with very poor vision.
The AI was very depressing (not that TA's was great, but it was better).

Pro "Starcraft is shit. Get over it." Minx


So what? are you saying that people like starcraft are stupid?

[pkghost]

im sorry i offended you by using the word concede. it must have been a typo or i wasnt thinking, i was just a little pissed at you. that you for correcting me on all the details of TA and it developer... i am now a better person. snob....

[pkghost]

i meant 'conceived' and in the second post i meant 'thank you' for correcting me.... yadda yadda yadda. i hope you feel better for proving me wrong, i sure have a lot more respect for you man.

[gear02]

I think all we're trying to say Prominx is that Starcraft was really damn good when it came out and it's still very much playable although the technology and expectations have soared.

TA did have some good ideas like downloadable units, but I felt like all my units were very expendable. In starcraft, sometimes you feel that even one marine is valuable and you didn't want to waste units. In TA, I felt like I could blow away half my units and I still wouldn't give a damn. I guess I'm saying TA likes personality.

Another thing about TA is that it's not as well balanced as Starcraft. I can beat the game with JUST artilery and guns. The only units I make are just the ones who build buildings. I think that's a bit off balance.

Finally, everyone says Starcraft is better than TA because SC actually caught on with people. I believe it's the best selling game of all time (not counting fake games like Myst), although the Sims might have toppled that by now. TA never got as much attention.

[pkghost]

i think he meant "lacks" personality, so dont get on his back about using the wrong word prominx...

[CluelessSi]

Originally posted by ProMinx
pkghost is just a retard. the developer of total annihilation was Cavedog, and TA2 wasn't actively scheduled for release...but Total Annihilation: Kingdoms was..and it wasn't scrapped, you ignorant fool. TA:K was released and didn't carry the same quality as TA, in my opinion. Besides...why the hell did you use the word "concede"? Concede means to give up or bow to pressures. Not only do I say that Starcraft is worse than Total Annihilation, but also inferior to any imagineable number of other strategy games. Starcraft was not a good game. It does have a huge fan base, but that doesn't make it good. A person is intelligent, but people are stupid and you know it.

The graphics in Starcraft suck.
The ingenuity of including 3 races was...NOT NEW.
The gameplay was mediocre at best.
The "award winning" cinematics look like they were drawn by someone with very poor vision.
The AI was very depressing (not that TA's was great, but it was better).

Pro "Starcraft is shit. Get over it." Minx




ProMinx you still have not given convincing aruguments... yea people are stupid but doesn't mean that a good game will not have a big number of players.....


Tell me how u say it is inbalanced and stuff I want to present you an aurguemnt. Sure it might not be revolutionary but it was a good game!

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by CluelessSi

Originally posted by ProMinx
pkghost is just a retard. the developer of total annihilation was Cavedog, and TA2 wasn't actively scheduled for release...but Total Annihilation: Kingdoms was..and it wasn't scrapped, you ignorant fool. TA:K was released and didn't carry the same quality as TA, in my opinion. Besides...why the hell did you use the word "concede"? Concede means to give up or bow to pressures. Not only do I say that Starcraft is worse than Total Annihilation, but also inferior to any imagineable number of other strategy games. Starcraft was not a good game. It does have a huge fan base, but that doesn't make it good. A person is intelligent, but people are stupid and you know it.

The graphics in Starcraft suck.
The ingenuity of including 3 races was...NOT NEW.
The gameplay was mediocre at best.
The "award winning" cinematics look like they were drawn by someone with very poor vision.
The AI was very depressing (not that TA's was great, but it was better).

Pro "Starcraft is shit. Get over it." Minx




ProMinx you still have not given convincing aruguments... yea people are stupid but doesn't mean that a good game will not have a big number of players.....


Tell me how u say it is inbalanced and stuff I want to present you an aurguemnt. Sure it might not be revolutionary but it was a good game!

Heh, me think he got this arse kicked on Battle.net and got a little bit bitter about the game. Heehee.

[ProMinx]

Originally posted by pkghost
i think he meant "lacks" personality, so dont get on his back about using the wrong word prominx...

pk - you're still a jack-ass. you had no idea what you were talking about...and yet you opened your mouth anyhow. I made fun of you because you had no clue who made the game...and just guessed at the developer, you made up some story about how TA2 was cancelled because they were bought out, you misspell the name of the game in question both times you use it, and then to add to my point that you're far from the cream of the crop, you use "concede" instead of "concieved", you use the wrong than/then, and you use poor grammar throughout your attempt to belittle me (remember "ProMinx needs to shut up"?). Therefore, I aimed my guns right back and ripped you apart. I don't always correct everyone's grammar; hell, correcting your 13 posts alone could put me well over Hapoo's posting rank. I usually only correct when someone has pissed me off, and I'm already attemping to belittle said person.

Jihforce - no, i'm not saying everyone who plays StarCraft is stupid...although I may have made such generalizations. Out there I'm sure there are a few reasonably intelligent StarCraft players who just don't have any real eye for quality. I'm simply stating (repeatedly) that StarCraft is shit.

gear - just because a game catches on doesn't mean that it is good. that was the point of my "people are stupid" (this is what had you confused, jihforce; i was referring to all humans when acting in groups). My point all along has been that StarCraft did not deserve to make so much money or so many sales.

CSi - I think that to be a truly good game, a game DOES have to be revolutionary. They have to do something worthwhile that has never been done before...and that is the challenge of game production. When you release three games with the exact same engine...you're killing it. It is time to move on! I give TA credit because the game was started from scratch by a brand new company and had tons of new ideas that were great for gaming.

I'm so tired right now. I'm hardly even watching what I'm typing, so I haven't really checked anything I've typed...and considering my affinity for the backspace keys, a few of my sentences are probably just weird...but I'm sick of being awake. I'm going to g lie on that big soft thing now...

Pro "Girls, it's time to get in touch with your female sides; guys, it's time to get in touch with your female friends." Minx

[brainsmile]

man I can't wait for this one!

[ProMinx]

Originally posted by brainsmile
man I can't wait for this one!

thanks, finally we're back to the original topic!!

ProMinx

[CluelessSi]

Originally posted by ProMinx

Originally posted by pkghost
i think he meant "lacks" personality, so dont get on his back about using the wrong word prominx...

pk - you're still a jack-ass. you had no idea what you were talking about...and yet you opened your mouth anyhow. I made fun of you because you had no clue who made the game...and just guessed at the developer, you made up some story about how TA2 was cancelled because they were bought out, you misspell the name of the game in question both times you use it, and then to add to my point that you're far from the cream of the crop, you use "concede" instead of "concieved", you use the wrong than/then, and you use poor grammar throughout your attempt to belittle me (remember "ProMinx needs to shut up"?). Therefore, I aimed my guns right back and ripped you apart. I don't always correct everyone's grammar; hell, correcting your 13 posts alone could put me well over Hapoo's posting rank. I usually only correct when someone has pissed me off, and I'm already attemping to belittle said person.

Jihforce - no, i'm not saying everyone who plays StarCraft is stupid...although I may have made such generalizations. Out there I'm sure there are a few reasonably intelligent StarCraft players who just don't have any real eye for quality. I'm simply stating (repeatedly) that StarCraft is shit.

gear - just because a game catches on doesn't mean that it is good. that was the point of my "people are stupid" (this is what had you confused, jihforce; i was referring to all humans when acting in groups). My point all along has been that StarCraft did not deserve to make so much money or so many sales.

CSi - I think that to be a truly good game, a game DOES have to be revolutionary. They have to do something worthwhile that has never been done before...and that is the challenge of game production. When you release three games with the exact same engine...you're killing it. It is time to move on! I give TA credit because the game was started from scratch by a brand new company and had tons of new ideas that were great for gaming.

I'm so tired right now. I'm hardly even watching what I'm typing, so I haven't really checked anything I've typed...and considering my affinity for the backspace keys, a few of my sentences are probably just weird...but I'm sick of being awake. I'm going to g lie on that big soft thing now...

Pro "Girls, it's time to get in touch with your female sides; guys, it's time to get in touch with your female friends." Minx

hmm SC is not really like Warcraft though... the AI is a lot better and the flexablilty of designing other games like RPGs right from a strategy game makes it very fun. if you are not sure what I mean then check out maps that are based on senerios and stuff. Also the race is finley tuned for a great balanece, true that a revolutionary game will be great but a game with a great story line, gameplay decent graphics flexabilty and just having a high replay value, is just as good. If every game can't simply make a previous attepmt better then we will be left with many ha;f-ass games that has good ideas but never gets developed further. What I want to say is that Stacraft may not be the best but it is fairly a good game. Definitly does not suck the way you make it sound.

[CluelessSi]

Originally posted by ProMinx

Originally posted by brainsmile
man I can't wait for this one!

thanks, finally we're back to the original topic!!

ProMinx

U never answered my questions for you on one of my last starcraft topics that is why I am kinda off topic here since I got your attention finally...

[Jihforce]

Its obvious that ProMinx will never acknowledge any points I were to bring up or anyone else's for that matter.
To each their own, I guess. I still don't agree with you ProMinx, (for the same reasons CSi doesn't agree with you).
I also do not agree with the fact that Starcraft was a good game because "everyone" likes it. Stop trying to convince me that you're the only one that thinks with both sides of the brain. Just because you dislike Starcraft so much, it doesn't mean you're unique. I know plenty of people who dislike it, some claim its too complex, others don't like the graphics, etc...To those, I say, "whatever". Just because I like, doesn't mean I am jumping on a band wagon or anything, I like it because I enjoy the game. It has its share of AI defects but I've seen much worse.
In any case, I'm disappointed to know that you have no real arguments other than calling starcraft lovers "stupid" and coming up with very general points about why you don't like starcraft. It doesn't matter whether you like or dislike tha game, but it matters when you're talking bad about others just because we like it.

[tupacboy]

when will it come....

[Jiffy John]

AHHH, apparently I'm not getting it for Xmas...

[Dzan]

I have to say that Star Craft was good. The best? Not likely. Age of Kings was better all around than Star Craft. I'm not saying Age of Kings was the best ever, but it is as close to it as I know.

[Jiffy John]

Age Kings was really slow paced... and there is no cool user settings maps like SC...

[sbp]

Originally posted by tupacboy
when will it come.... Next year sometime. http://sbp777.homestead.com/files/santaredface.gif