Depressed that McVeigh stopped his appeals...

[TheLoneGunman]

I really haven't made up my mind as to his guilt, but I really believe in the adversarial process--something that is lost all too frequently these days.

The Founding Fathers believed that it was the obligation of defense attornies to ensure that prosecutors proved their case. This is different than "proving someone innocent". The OJ trial was a great example. The government spent about TEN TIMES what OJ spent and still his lawyers were able to make the government's case look like swiss cheese. Imagine if that was you on trial. Would you have had the resources to prove Mark Furhman was a liar and a racist? (in order to get the audio tapes, the lawyers had to pay $50,000 and offer even more).

The same situation took place in the last election. It shouldn't have been about anything but putting the process on trial. The Civil Rights Commission in their draft report said that blacks were TEN TIMES more likely to have their votes rejected in Florida. Shouldn't this have been examined rather than people entering government buildings and chanting?

If we give up challenging what we are told and what the status quo is, we risk our freedom. Who will speak up for you if you don't speak up for others.

When they kill McVeigh, it will also kill a little bit of all of our freedom.

[topane]

um, didn't he confess?

[DizzyT]

I must say that I do not believe in the Death Penalty but agree that it is a good way to dilute our society of scum without possibility of return. I feel that yes, when we kill him we kill a bit of our freedom as US Citizens. But I also believe that he did do it. He admitted to it. He shows no remorse. Even went as far as to converse with a reporter via snail mail several times to "confess" his feelings on why he committed such an unacceptable crime. I think he should rot in jail and suffer with the others there who felt that they do not need to live by the standards set in our society (Although I hear that it may be like camp in there - thats another OT thread). They are set for a reason. I'm not a huge fan of government but could you imagine a world without laws and common rights and wrongs?

As far as the OJ case, I remembered watching the trial daily just out of sick curiosity. I know that I wouldnt have had the resources to pull myself out of such a mess, then again, I never went around beating people to create my reputation as someone who may commit such an act. So in my opinion, he brought the accusations on himself. As unfair and narrowminded as this sounds: every act you commit daily builds your character and reputation within those around you and if you live your life in a way as to make people believe you are capable of murder then dont be surprised to someday find yourself in that hot seat.

The election was just messed up and that was/is due to the lack of management of process. Our government is not the only one that needs to revamp/modernize its processes. Every company I have ever worked for is constantly trying to keep up with the changing times. The fact that the government is a much larger operation, much more important in my opinion, and covers a much larger purpose makes it as horrific a mess to hear about than something like a recall on Ford tires (not that I agree that that was handled properly - all those unnecessary injuries brought about because someone couldnt just stand up and take responsibility). Bush is running our country. OUR COUNTRY. We have the obligation to be informed and the chance to make a difference by our votes. Some people arent as fortunate to have that freedom.

I think we all need to get involved in shaping our country and how we treat people and events in our society. These examples that you provided here TLG are very good points and I believe when you say "who will speak up for you if you dont speak up for others" that people should take this as an important point. I'm not saying that we should all march into our state capitals and cause caos in the world but if it werent for bra burners I'd probably not be as successful in my career as I am and certainly would not have the opportunity to voice my views in a forum like this.

[IntegraTypeR]

i am so glad that mcveigh finally gave in. he killed 186 +/- people. he deserves to die. i am for the death penalty. by appealing all he does is buy himself time and wastes tax payer money trying the case.

[DeepTrout]

...who had his memory wiped. They're not gonna get any more info out of him. On 2 the chair with him

On the whole Death penalty/prison debate:

Many people can be redeemed, some can not. As it stands, society is willing to sacrifice a tremendous amount of resources to imprison non~violent persons for very long periods of time. It really is shooting ourselves in the foot, as is amply demonstrated by the needy nature of most state governments who have to keep on coming up with new taxes to keep the whole prison regime going. Politicians don't care 'cause they get plenty of kickbacks[UNICOR anyone?], plus all the TV zombies eat it up so it's really a no loss scheme for opportunistic pols to keep flogging prison porkbarrel under the guise of 'tough on crime'. More like 'tough on everyone else's wallet'

Every dollar that goes to prisons is one more dollar taken away from desperately needed social services or an extra dollar added to your taxes. Looked at with a critical mind unshaded by decades of faulty memes, there are many more cost effective ways of dealing with the created problem we know as 'crime'

If people can be saved, lets save them; otherwise let us not waste the time or the money creating institutions of higher crime so some intellectually lazy politician can get re~elected. That said let us make a complete certainty of guilt before passing on the ultimate judgement

[for20]

...PRISONS R NO FREE LUNCH

When U state "let's throw them in there to rot" U seem 2 demonstrate a sincere lack of understanding about who exactly will pay 4 that:

US STUPID

[DizzyT]

DeepTrout, I agree with you that way too much money is spent on imprisoning and reforming the bad, where it would be very well spent in my opinion in helping the good. But that is part of my point with my whole rambling first response. We as a society, have a responsibility to be informed in where our money is spent and help to reshape the laws and use of money enforcing them. Do I think their cells should be repainted every year - no. But they are. And we suffer the monetary loss to give them bright clean walls. Do I think they should have cable tv to sit and watch when they're being "good" - no. I have to pay $42 for Basic + Extended cable - without HBO or any type of movie channel why should they get it for free when they are good. I do not agree with you on your death penalty rules but we dont have to agree with that to both feel that justice is being served when he is no longer a part of the general population. It's the system that supports the scum that needs to be revamped. We all have our opinions. I dont feel that mine is any more right than anyone elses, its just what I believe.

[DizzyT]

Ok, for20, so we dont put them in there to rot, we just make the decision that an eye for an eye is the right way to handle people that do things wrong. You're not the judge of life/death so by just killing them you are doing the same thing that he did. I do realize that we pay for that. I also realize that we pay for a lot of "good" people who have never killed anyone but walk the streets begging for our spare change, have babies and live off the Country's Welfare system WHICH WE PAY FOR TOO!!! Do we kill them as well?

[for20]

Originally posted by DizzyT
DeepTrout, I agree with you that way too much money is spent on imprisoning and reforming the bad, where it would be very well spent in my opinion in helping the good.

If we actually spent 1/10 the money we spend on imprisonment on reformation and therapy, the majority of prisons would be obsolete in 20 years. Guess who don't want that 2 happen?

And would it really be worth having the good feeling of living in a death~penalty free civilization to live with the accompanying ever~increasing bill for prison services which would eventually grow to eat up the budget of most government's budgets?

Lets all think for a few minutes rather than fill ourselves with mediated feelgood tripe

[for20]

Originally posted by DizzyT
I have to pay $42 for Basic + Extended cable - without HBO or any type of movie channel why should they get it for free when they are good.

BULLSHIT no one makes u pay 4 cable; politicians force you to pay to lock up people for many unfair 'crimes'

[DizzyT]

Originally posted by for20

Originally posted by DizzyT
I have to pay $42 for Basic + Extended cable - without HBO or any type of movie channel why should they get it for free when they are good.

BULLSHIT no one makes u pay 4 cable; politicians force you to pay to lock up people for many unfair 'crimes'

I dont understand that comment: Bullshit no one makes you pay 4 cable. Do you get your cable for free? If you do, please post the deal in Got Deals for us all to milk! Do you think that they dont provide cable and movies in prison? If you think that then you're obviously misinformed.

But you're obviously strong in your opinions so go ahead : Kill em all! That'll save us a few bucks in the end.

[for20]

Originally posted by DizzyT
I also realize that we pay for a lot of "good" people who have never killed anyone but walk the streets begging for our spare change, have babies and live off the Country's Welfare system WHICH WE PAY FOR TOO!!!

Yeah, you are correct: many working people get jacked when in comparison to the benefits of the non~working.

It's their own damn fault for letting themselves get led along by the musicmen of "crime&punishment"; had they not voted for all these stupid and harsh laws out of stupidity and hatred, their governments would have the money to allow everyone to live like kings through a combination of low taxes and good benefits[wouldn't U, as a working citizen like to be entitled to all the benefits that our public "servants" have alloted 4themselves?]

Swords into ploughs, prisons into parks, libraries, and preventative healthcare, capiche?

[for20]

Originally posted by DizzyT

Originally posted by for20

Originally posted by DizzyT
I have to pay $42 for Basic + Extended cable - without HBO or any type of movie channel why should they get it for free when they are good.

BULLSHIT no one makes u pay 4 cable; politicians force you to pay to lock up people for many unfair 'crimes'

I dont understand that comment: Bullshit no one makes you pay 4 cable. Do you get your cable for free? If you do, please post the deal in Got Deals for us all to milk! Do you think that they dont provide cable and movies in prison? If you think that then you're obviously misinformed.

But you're obviously strong in your opinions so go ahead : Kill em all! That'll save us a few bucks in the end.


Don't complain 2 me about your cable bill; it is not something that under the force of imprisonment you are forced to pay. I don't have cable and don't miss it at all.

TAXES on the otherhand R something you can NOT avoid without a strict penalty (http://www.sightings.com/general11/grab.htm). You can't call up your local government and tell them you don't want to participate anymore and don't want to pay. UNLIKE CABLE

Yes, cable television in overcrowded prisons like the ones you seem to be ignoring is a necessary element in preventing things like prison riots, which become alot more possible as levels of overcrowding increase. Are you getting the picture yet?

MORE STUPID LAWS=MORE PEOPLE WHO SHOULDN"T BE IN PRISON, IN PRISON=GREATER COST TO GOVERNMENT=MORE TAXES 4 U=MORE INJUSTICE

And with the current state of 'justice' in the country I do believe the death penalty should be suspended until the system is fixed; after that though no option should be excluded.

[Edited by for20 on 06-08-2001 at 11:03 AM]

[theorangeone]

I'm not really sure where I stand on death penalty in general. Its not really something I think about. In general, I guess its case by case. Not everyone deserves it, but McVeigh deserves it. He killed 186 innocent people. I remember when I heard it on the news- the only thing I heard before a commericial was "explosion" and "federal building". I didn't hear Oklahoma. I was completely freaked out. Both my sister and my father both work for the Federal Goverment, and for all I knew, either of them could be dead. I have to say I breathed a sigh of relief when I discovered it wasn't a building in MA or RI, but you can't imagine the pain and suffering those families went through, all because of one *******. I can honestly say I don't think killing him is going to do all that much to deter other people from doing horrible things like that- when you're deranged, nothing is going to stop you.

[froggystyle]

the thing that gets me is when people say that sentencing people to death is more costly than imprisoning them for life. There are a few points I wish to make on that and im sure I will get flamed for it. First I feel that the majority of the money spent on those sentenced to death is spent on appeals. I think there should be reforms in the appeals process. Yes there is a fear that y limiting appeals maybe an innocent person will slip by...but realise how many people will starve because that money is spent on appeals instead of social services for the slim chance that an innocent person may slip through 20 appeals without the court finding in their favor. Second, I believe that if more people are sentenced to death it will work as a major deterent for future criminals (dont believe me? look at singapore).

On another note...what i dont understand is when people are jailed for fraud and embezzelment and such. That is a waste of space in our prisons....I think that a heafty fine and probation and community service will suffice...Plus it would be really nice to pump money into our government system for such crimes.

Next.... prostitution....this is a moral issue dealing with religion and should have no part in our governments law system....the reason prostitution is illegal is because the church wants it to be...As a legal businees there could be alot of gains...sex offenders would be detered...conventional pimps would be out of work..there would be health benifits for prostitutes which passes on safety to the consumer...and more to tax of course.

Drugs..for the most part drugs should be illegal I ont want people trippin on acid walking arround me. But as far as pot is concerned..I think if there were laws to control the use it could definately be an acceptable part of our community..I dont see the effects of it being any worse than alcohol and that is legal. plus more tax and more jobs in the legal marijuanna sales industry...boost our economy some more.

on to Mcveigh which is what this is really about. The reason the appeals judges ruled against him is because the turned up doccuments did not prove him to be any less guilty of the crime...yes others may be involved (probably are) and that will eb dealt with but that does not commute the guilt from him..He is the one that placed the bopmb and detonated it and he is the one that will die for it. Everyone else that may or may not have been involved will be dealt with seperately. Plus he makes a great scapegoat for those seeking vengance

Ok now you can flame me a smuch as you want

[froggystyle]

oh and about the cable thing..what hes tring to say is that he has to pay for his cable while prisoners get it for free and hes griping...but I agree that it is a great deterent from prison riots and such.unless nascar and oprah are on at the same time...then you gotta break out the riot gear

[for20]

Originally posted by theorangeone
I'm not really sure where I stand on death penalty in general. Its not really something I think about. In general, I guess its case by case. Not everyone deserves it, but McVeigh deserves it. He killed 186 innocent people. I remember when I heard it on the news- the only thing I heard before a commericial was "explosion" and "federal building". I didn't hear Oklahoma. I was completely freaked out. Both my sister and my father both work for the Federal Goverment, and for all I knew, either of them could be dead. I have to say I breathed a sigh of relief when I discovered it wasn't a building in MA or RI, but you can't imagine the pain and suffering those families went through, all because of one *******.

<sigh>

It wasn't just "one *******"; he's just the one that gets 2 pay the price

And No I am not a blood thirsty maniac, but as many people seem to agree, on a case by case basis, some people deserve to die. Perhaps in the future the rare public executions they do have will be decided by internet voting. We just never gnow, now do we?

[DeepTrout]

...and drags the rest of society along with it, perhaps a process whereby "lost souls" could be regressed to the fetal stage and brought up a second time in a more nurturing environment could be developed. A second chance so to speak.

[DeepTrout]

Originally posted by froggystyle
the thing that gets me is when people say that sentencing people to death is more costly than imprisoning them for life. There are a few points I wish to make on that and im sure I will get flamed for it. First I feel that the majority of the money spent on those sentenced to death is spent on appeals. I think there should be reforms in the appeals process. Yes there is a fear that y limiting appeals maybe an innocent person will slip by...but realise how many people will starve because that money is spent on appeals instead of social services for the slim chance that an innocent person may slip through 20 appeals without the court finding in their favor.

It always costs more to keep a shitty structure running than to build it right the first time.

A general Pardon is needed; afterwards the True criminals will show themselves and we can move on

[El Scorcho]

holy crap people...you write a fricken lot