Death penatly......

[stupidzbu]

i just took a 20 min break from writing one of my numerous papers due next week....

and just so happens that EVERY GOD DAMN CHANNEL is talking about the execution on monday...

so... you know.. i really haven't paid much attention to it.. cause i'm busy with school... so i decided to listen....

and WOW... it hit hard... not the fact that he was going to get executed... but just.. my stomach got VERY uneasy.. when they showed the place with no windows.. where he is going to be the last couple of hours before the execution.... and i was just wondering.. god DAMN! can you just picture yourself.... walking down a corridor ONE LAST TIME... seeing the world ONE LAST TIME... KNOWING that no matter WHAT HAPPENS.. you will never be able to BREATHE again... you will never be able to inhale a fresh gasp of air!

wow... that is INTENSE... it actually scares the shit out of me thinking about it.. i mean.. it's one thing just to DIE.. it's another to KNOW you are going to DIE...

sure.. it sucks that all those people died that day... sure.. it sucks that all those KIDS died that day.....

but.. to take another person's life is and always WILL be wrong.... what should be done to him?! rot in jail?! HELL NO... too expensive... i say.. throw him in a deserted island.... excommunicate him from society and the world... make it IMPOSSIBLE for him to escape... and let him fend for himself..

i mean.. we have rules... social facts... that form our society... if you go against those.. you shouldn't be killed.... you know?

anyhow... if you take an eye for an eye.. all you do is end up blind....

just my 2 cents.....

nobody's life should be taken by anyone else.. to do so.. presents a message that others actually have the POWER to choose whether you live or die... but THEY DO NOT... i go by the lockean idea.. that I am SOVEREIGN over MY BODY AND MY LIFE! and NO ONE can take that away from me....

to dictate the death of others.. is to play GOD.. and we are not GOD nor GOD-like...

i also don't condone his actions... BUT.. his actions are caused by:
1) his PARENTS
2) SOCIETY
3) the MEDIA
4) people who put any form of SHIT on TV just to make $$$
5) HIS lack of ability to formulate coherent thought patterns....

and we should not punish HIM by death.. but OURSELVES... his death will be the SCAPEGOAT of ALL OF OUR GUILT because we are all equally to blame.... not only for this.. but for catholic priests who molest choir boys.. for coloumbine.. for gangs... and for everything..

it is all EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOUR's FAULT... and until all you shitheads (i'm talking about EVERYONE IN THE GOD DAMN WORLD) realize that.. and ACCEPT this blame... we will still have mass murder.. we will still have ethnic cleansing.. we will still have gun totting 5 year olds... we will still risk the lives of our CHILDREN in ELEMENTARY AND HIGH SCHOOL!!

RISE UP! find the BALLS in between your legs.. and say "FUCKN'A it IS my fault!"

[eSDee]

I agree....it's your fault. ;)

Speaking of Death Penalty, I think Dead Man Walking was the best movie to ever address the plight of a person about to be executed. Sean Penn was awesome, and Susan Sarandon, damn she looked sexy even without makeup on.

[LPMiller]

I respect those who cannot support the death penalty.

But it doesn't matter what made him what he is. If we are going to talk about God, lets talk about the little gift of free will. We can be greater than the sum of our parts, and frequently are. He selected a different path. That path has a price.

I don't think of it as playing god. It think of it as hurrying Timmy on his way to the big principals office in the sky. With one serious ass note from his teachers.

[stupidzbu]

Originally posted by LPM
, lets talk about the little gift of free will

where does free will state that we have the power to decide who lives... and who dies.. and the RULES to STAY ALIVE?!

[stupidzbu]

Originally posted by EsDeeLoco
I agree....it's your fault. ;)


you know why it WOULD be my fault?

it would be partly my fault.. if i did NOTHING to help people.... speak my voice... say whats on my mind....

if i don't try to help in educating people.. to thinking in a different way.... then what good am I?!


like JS mill says..... if everyone speaks what they believe.. the truth will be strengthened.. if it is in fact the real truth.. or a new truth will come about... when ONE person does not speak... everything is invalidated...

[TheLoneGunman]

the USA is the only democracy with a death penalty...


Oh wait, we appointed our last president after he lost the popular vote. Sorry, I stand corrected.

[Loki]

I have to agree with LPM on this one. I do believe that people have free will and you can't blame everything on outside influences. If I blindly believed that I would have to succumb to my stereotype. I grew up with crackhead parents and was surrounded by the like environment but I CHOSE not to be the stereotypical kid getting into trouble but get out of it and try to make the most of my life.

Though, I have to say that bringing someone to death does not really bring about any kind of retribution or closure to the situation. We can't really excommunicate him from the world, though, cause where would he go? And the eye for eye argument just means that we SHOULD kill him. If you kill someone there's really nothing else that can be done except that your life shall be taken as well. He chose to kill people and knew the consequences of such actions. So, yes we have social norms that must be abided by and people KNOW the consequences if they break those rules and thus that should shape their actions.

[hapoo]

Originally posted by stupidzbu
i say.. throw him in a deserted island.... excommunicate him from society and the world... make it IMPOSSIBLE for him to escape... and let him fend for himself..



Hence the australians.

[stupidzbu]

Originally posted by hapoo
[QUOTE]


Hence the australians.


HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHA

i have NEVER laughed so hard in my LIFE!! WOW!! that was HILARIOUS!!!!!!

[renots]

...due 2 greed?

the researchers who don't REALLy want to find a cheap viable cure if it means killing the huge dog&pony show we gnow as the cancer research[and production] industry?

Sure lets all just put our heads in the ground concerning Royal Rife lifetime of research so a bunch of godless hacks can continue to pay their mortgages. U people R playing in the shadows and it doesn't get any prettier

The Apocalypse is coming, U can Bet Ur ASS on it

[eSDee]

I'm convinced that studidzbu=renots=for20. Anyone else getting this vibe?

[m0j0]

a few points:

there is no free will.

mcveigh would love his own island, away from the hustle and bustle. i would kill for one, myself. (figuratively speaking, of course)

death is too good for this guy. you take away all his worries. i say give him more worries. i don't know what those worries would be tho. perhaps give him a group of whiners that complain about political stuff. heck, give him a drug that makes him actually care about it...that must be hell.

[MadMOO]

Originally posted by EsDeeLoco
I'm convinced that studidzbu=renots=for20. Anyone else getting this vibe?

I'm convinced that everyone is everyone else

[topane]

I am not!

-MadMOO

[johnnymk]

Society is to blame; The Media is to blame, His parents are to blame: These arguments are getting so old as to be ridiculous. If it was your sister or your Mom who was murdered, I guarantee, you wouldn't be singing this kind of tune. What is the saying.... A conservative is a liberal who just got mugged.
It's so easy to feel compasion for idiots who commit a crime until a gruesome act hits home,then the only thing that comes out of people's mouth is REVENGE!!

[stupidzbu]

Originally posted by johnnymk
It's so easy to feel compasion for idiots who commit a crime until a gruesome act hits home,then the only thing that comes out of people's mouth is REVENGE!!

first off.. with that society/media thing... i don't JUST want to blame them.... i want them to ACKNOWLEDGE that they had a part in all of this...

we can all be fucked up because of MANY things... i just want those MANY things to say 'yeah.. we did that'... instead of just turning away...

i don't feel compasion for this idiot... to feel compasion for him... would be like rationalizing that what hitler did was NOT HIS FAULT! NO.. i am saying blame the fucker! just don't KILL him....

honestly... i could say.. that if I say someone rape and kill my girl... i would LOVE to rip his head off... but I would try my hardest NOT to...

what would I gain by killing him? having him off the streets and preventing him from doing it all over again, especially to someone else?!

sure.. thats fine... but did he really suffer.. the way i will suffer for the rest of my existence? HELL NO!!

will mcveigh feel... what the people felt when they died? NO
will he go through so much agony... like the families of those whose members he killed? NO
will anyone gain satisfaction in seeing him die.... PROBABLY NOT.. or maybe just for a couple of days......

will his DEATH mean much... no?
will it show that we are animalistic at heart.. and still enjoy the site of death like the romans because we RAFFLE AWAY seats to see him die?

.....

[stupidzbu]

Originally posted by EsDeeLoco
I'm convinced that studidzbu=renots=for20. Anyone else getting this vibe?

hehehe.. what gave you that idea?

i was never.. nor will i ever be a renots or a for20....

possibly a for69.. but thats about it....

[Speedfreak]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
the USA is the only democracy with a death penalty...


Oh wait, we appointed our last president after he lost the popular vote. Sorry, I stand corrected.

So What....You think it's a a Dictatorship? :heh: :laugh:
That's funny. Any fool knows that it's the electoral vote that counts. That's how it got it's name, ya know. It is the vote that elects. ;)

[Speedfreak]

Originally posted by stupidzbu
god DAMN! can you just picture yourself.... walking down a corridor ONE LAST TIME... seeing the world ONE LAST TIME... KNOWING that no matter WHAT HAPPENS.. you will never be able to BREATHE again... you will never be able to inhale a fresh gasp of air!


People at that time probably aks themselves why the hell they did what they did. They must not understand what "death" means before they took the actions that got them there.

I think of it as showing him the outcome of his work, but he probably wishes he had gotten into a different profession.

[eSDee]

Stupidzbu, if society is to blame, and the people that were killed in the bombing were a part of society, does that mean that it was their fault that they were killed?
That would be an interesting point to argue in court. I'm not even sure Johnny Cochrane could pull that one off.
I feel compassion for McVeigh, but I feel that he should, as LPM put it, "be sent to the big principle's office in the sky". Although I think it would be great if McVeigh were forced to live with Bubba taking nightly anal intrusions for the rest of his life, for the families of the victims I think that he should be executed. They need some sort of closure I think.

[TheLoneGunman]

Originally posted by Speedfreak

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
the USA is the only democracy with a death penalty...


Oh wait, we appointed our last president after he lost the popular vote. Sorry, I stand corrected.

So What....You think it's a a Dictatorship? :heh: :laugh:
That's funny. Any fool knows that it's the electoral vote that counts. That's how it got it's name, ya know. It is the vote that elects. ;)

As I suspected, it was easier to attack the political rhetoric than the underlying logic.

Are all the other countries wrong and the US the only one doing the right thing by executing its citizens?

How come we make only a semi-public spectacle of it? (i.e. We allow certain people to watch, but not others.)

Why do they control the number and type of the executee's witnesses? (ex. would it really make a differences if there were 3 lawyers and 1 family member instead of 3 family members and 1 lawyer?)

I am Jewish so I am unfamiliar with the exact scripture, but wasn't there something like "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" in reference to the death penalty for criminals?

[LPMiller]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman

Originally posted by Speedfreak

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
the USA is the only democracy with a death penalty...


Oh wait, we appointed our last president after he lost the popular vote. Sorry, I stand corrected.

So What....You think it's a a Dictatorship? :heh: :laugh:
That's funny. Any fool knows that it's the electoral vote that counts. That's how it got it's name, ya know. It is the vote that elects. ;)

As I suspected, it was easier to attack the political rhetoric than the underlying logic.

Are all the other countries wrong and the US the only one doing the right thing by executing its citizens?

How come we make only a semi-public spectacle of it? (i.e. We allow certain people to watch, but not others.)

Why do they control the number and type of the executee's witnesses? (ex. would it really make a differences if there were 3 lawyers and 1 family member instead of 3 family members and 1 lawyer?)

I am Jewish so I am unfamiliar with the exact scripture, but wasn't there something like "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" in reference to the death penalty for criminals?


well, I've never blown anyone up before, so go ahead and show me the pile of rocks. I have lousy aim, so you might want to step back a bit.

[m0j0]

i guess, to an extent, i'm with stupid.

it's not our fault directly, or even indirectly. however, it is the way that we act and react that brings this sh*t about.

when ppl go around acting tough because they can kick your ass, it's because they got the notion that kicking ass is cool. nevermind the fact that if they kick my ass, it may be because i don't want to go to jail for fighting (self defense claims only work at certain times, and don't work for everyone). some ppl hang out with "thugs" because they get the attention that they need there. they feel cool...and to maintain that, they need to act like thugs, too. sometimes ppl get sent to jail a lot of times for nothing, to the point where being a model citizen doesn't pay off any longer, and so decides to live a life of crime. we watch news programs that are only 10% news...the rest being sensationalism. bad news sells, and so we dwell on that.

everyone is too busy trying to cover their asses to see the big picture. if you say "they get it from tv," 1/3 of the ppl immediately say "i don't watch tv." in other words, "not me." if you say, "they think it's cool," half the ppl say, "i would walk away." if you say, "he learned it in jail," half will say, "well, he must have done something to get there." always the blame is on the other person.

ultimately it was timmy's fault. that is obvious. and while it was not directly our fault, we are part of a society that made killing a viable option in this man's mind. the trick is...how do we avoid it happening again?

[Jeffbx]

Originally posted by stupidzbu

i also don't condone his actions... BUT.. his actions are caused by:
1) his PARENTS
2) SOCIETY
3) the MEDIA
4) people who put any form of SHIT on TV just to make $$$
5) HIS lack of ability to formulate coherent thought patterns....

and we should not punish HIM by death.. but OURSELVES...
...
RISE UP! find the BALLS in between your legs.. and say "FUCKN'A it IS my fault!"


Don't buy into that crap, man. That's fed to us by trial lawyers who want us to believe that it's anyone's fault except the guy who did it.

It's no one's fault but his own. Sure, we live in a f***ed up society. Bad stuff happens here, and it has a bad affect on some people. But that DOESN'T mean you can blame society for the evil things some people do. That's a cop out, and a lame one.

Why aren't you a serial killer or a rapist? Why don't you rob old ladies or kick puppies? Because you know it's wrong. Despite watching the WWF and CNN and listening to heavy metal music and despite playing Doom and D&D - despite all those evil influences, you've somehow refrained from committing any of those crimes. How did you do it if others can't? Simple - you're an intelligent, compassionate human. Some people are not - simple as that.

If you spill hot coffee on your lap, it's YOUR fault. If you slip and fall, it's YOUR fault. If you shoot up a McDonalds, it's YOUR fault. I'm sick of people blaming society, their parents, PMS, or anything else but themselves. It's time we stopped making lame excuses for every bad thing that happens and start placing blame where it belongs.

I don't know if it's right or wrong to put him to death. If my daughter was killed in the explosion, I would likely have a different opinion of that.

Whether it's execution or locking him away in prison for the rest of his life, I don't care. He doesn't have a place in society anymore.

[stupidzbu]

Originally posted by Jeffbx
[QUOTE]Originally posted by stupidzbu


Don't buy into that crap, man. That's fed to us by trial lawyers who want us to believe that it's anyone's fault except the guy who did it.

It's no one's fault but his own. Whether it's execution or locking him away in prison for the rest of his life, I don't care. He doesn't have a place in society anymore.

I agree that he has no place in society.....

and I also agree that it IS his fault... BUT... what I also want people to acknowledge is that it isn't ONLY his fault... i'm not saying it is heavy metal, Doom, or any of that other crap you mentioned...

i'm more on the lines of what m0j0 is talking about... society causes these norms that force women to be bolemic (sp?) and jocks to beat up dorks.. they are called social facts. Durkheim writes about them, how they are external to the people... yes force us to do things for fear of not 'fitting in' ...

we all have not fit in (probably.. thats why we are all here isn't it? were we not dorks, geeks, losers, computer nerds, and stand outs of our classes in some way or another?) that is why we can assess things differently... we don't really CARE to fit in...

but those poor fuckers... who have known nothing more but the NEED and DESIRE to fit in... those are whom I speak of.. when I say it isn't ONLY their fault (but mostly...)

[DizzyT]

Story copied from Yahoo News, my personal comments listed below:


TERRE HAUTE, Ind. (Reuters) - Timothy McVeigh (news - web sites), whose bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building killed 168 people, prepared to meet his death on Monday morning as squadrons of police guarded every entrance to the prison and witnesses gathered to watched him die by lethal injection.

The 33-year-old decorated Gulf War (news - web sites) veteran spent the last night of his life in a small, windowless cell not far from the chemicals and devices that will be used to kill him for a crime that shook a complacent America to the core.

Prisons spokesman Dan Dunne said McVeigh slept on and off during the night and received a half hour briefing on how he would die from the prison warden Harley Lappin. ``He received it cordially,'' Dunne said.

He also said McVeigh had a last meal of two pints of mint, chocolate chip ice cream as his final meal and saw two of his lawyers for the last time.

McVeigh was to die at 7 a.m. local time at the U.S. Penitentiary near this college town on the banks of the Wabash River, after being strip-searched and then dressed in prison-issue khaki slacks, a white T-shirt and soft-sole slippers.

About 30 witnesses gathered to watch his death by lethal injection in the prison's execution chamber, where he was to be strapped to a gurney and injected with a fatal mix of chemicals. About 300 bombing survivors and relatives of victims will watch on closed circuit television in Oklahoma City.

A phone line was opened to the Department of Justice (news - web sites) in Washington in case of an unexpected pardon. Dozens of police patrolled the federal prison grounds and manned boats on the nearby Wabash River.

To the end McVeigh argued, in published letters and through his lawyers, his 1995 attack on the Alfred P. Murrah federal building (news - web sites) was justified. Lou Michel, one of his biographers, said he was going to his death in the belief he had won his personal crusade, beating the government 168 to one.

McVeigh was to pay for the worst act of domestic terrorism in this country.

His body was to be cremated and the ashes turned over to his lawyers, who apparently will scatter them secretly. Chris Tritico, one of his attorneys, said on Sunday the exact disposition of the ashes would remain a secret forever.

In a letter published on Sunday in the Buffalo Evening News, McVeigh said he had once considered having his ashes scattered near the memorial in Oklahoma City that marks the site of the building his truck-bomb shattered in 1995.

But he said he decided that would be too vengeful, raw and cold, adding: ``It's not in me.''

``He is in amazingly good spirits, talkative, affable and maintaining a sense of humor,'' Nathan Chambers, another of his lawyers, said after visiting the 33-year-old decorated Gulf War veteran on Sunday.

``I don't know how a normal person can do this ... He is now ready to die,'' Chambers said, adding McVeigh was sorry about the victims but still regarded the bombing a ``military action.''

AN ACT OF REVENGE

McVeigh staged the attack to avenge the government's bloody showdown with the Branch Davidian cult in Waco, Texas, two years earlier.

McVeigh's impending death was a tale being written in two cities: Terre Haute, Indiana, where demonstrators opposed to capitol punishment took to the streets in lesser numbers than expected, and Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, were the wounds may never heal.

``I just want it to be over with,'' said Joan Cartwright, 74, whose windows were broken in her house three miles from the blast. ``We want to think of our own, not him. We are focusing on how much love we have for each other.''

Demonstrators for and against the execution were allowed to spend the entire night before the execution in fenced-off areas outside the prison.

In addition, hundreds of police officers patrolled the city streets and the country roads lined by cornfields, and kept an eye on the Wabash, which winds behind the prison, to guard against possible violence from any McVeigh sympathizers who might show up.

All state, county and local government offices were closed on Monday and summer school classes as well as recreational activities were canceled at local schools.

The federal government has not carried out an execution since 1963, and McVeigh's death sentence has sharpened the debate on capital punishment in the United States.
______________________________________________________

I am not Christian. I do not believe in Murder, Suicide, Capital Punishment or Abortion as acceptable ways to end a persons life. I do believe that to take another human beings life is wrong in whatever manner is performed. It is in my opinion that death is to be decided by whatever higher force there is in the universe. But we are all free to make our own decisions as to how we feel about such acts. I dont fault anyone for their opinion nor will I argue to pursuade anyone to my way of thinking. Timothy McVeigh is now dead. Hopefully this will put the families of the OK city bombing victims at rest that this can now be a closed chapter of their lives. My heart goes out to each and every one of them for their losses. I dont know if I could bear losing friends or family they way that they did. Maybe my views would change if I had been more closely involved. I'm sure the scars that would be left behind would run deeper than any injury I've suffered thus far in my 31 years and cant imagine it ever being outdone.

[stupidzbu]

but I thought this was rather itneresting... seeing what I had originally posted.. that it was EVERYONE'S FAULT

Thich Nhat Hanh in "Peace is every step"... a buddhist book I read for my humanities class... says this on page 97 & 98:

"In the city of Manila there are many young prostitutes; some are only 14 or 15 years old. They are very unhappy. They did not want to be prostitutes, but their families are so poor and these young girls went to the city to look for some kind of job, like street vendor, to make money to send back to their families. Of couse this is true not only in Manila, but in Hi CHi Minh City in Vietnam, in New York City, and in Paris also"

"After only a few weeks in the city, the vunerable girl can be persuaded by a clever person to work for him and earn perhaps one hundred times more money than she could as a street vendor. Because she is young and doesn't know much about life, she accepts and becomes a prostitute. Since taht time, she has carried the feeling of being impure, defiled, adn this causes her great suffering. When she looks at other young girls, dressed beautifully, beloning to good families, a wretched feeling wells up in her, a feeling of defilement that becomes her hell"

"But if she could look deeply at herself and at the whole situation, she would see that she is the way she is because other people are the way they are. How can a 'good girl,' belonging to a good family be proud? Because the 'good family's' way of life is the way it is, the prostitute hs to live as a prostitute. No one among us hs clean hands. No one of us can claim that it is not our responsibility. The girl in manila is that way because of the way we are. Looking into th elife of that young prostitute, we see the lives od all teh 'non-prostitutes.' And looking at the non-prostitutes and the way we live our lives, we see the prostitute. Each thing helps to create the other"

end quote...

this is a perfect analogy from a well respected buddhist monk who has helped many vietnam vets cope with their pains... basically... if you replace prostitute with murderer.. then it works PERFECT with what i was saying... we are ALL to blame when someone commits murder....

[Grimm]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
the USA is the only democracy with a death penalty...


Oh wait, we appointed our last president after he lost the popular vote. Sorry, I stand corrected.

TLG, WRONG!
I like you TLG but I can't let this one go by. You are a lawyer, you know about how our government works, how can you knowingly spout this disinformation?

We are a Republic. We have never been a Democracy.

A democracy is a society in which every person gets a vote which is counted equaly.
A republic elects representitives that each get a vote representing the will of the persons who elected them (hopefully).

[Edited by evilcyclops on 08-10-2001 at 11:30 AM]

[maggiebirdie]

Originally posted by EsDeeLoco
I agree....it's your fault. ;)

Speaking of Death Penalty, I think Dead Man Walking was the best movie to ever address the plight of a person about to be executed. Sean Penn was awesome, and Susan Sarandon, damn she looked sexy even without makeup on.



WHAT??? Susan Sarandon is a fossil. I hope you are kidding.