"Show Restraint" when terrorists strike???

[TheLoneGunman]

It is obvious that Bush has resumed doing coke.

He keeps telling the Israelis to 'show restraint' when innocent people keep getting killed by terrorists.

Whenever someone throws a rock at an American cop, they are promptly executed right there.

Whenever an Iraqi dares to challenge the americans, they are subject to massive bombings.

Why is it that Jews aren't entitled to the same reaction?

[coleslaw]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
It is obvious that Bush has resumed doing coke.

You mean he actually stopped at one point?

[BrewMaster]

I'm not quite sure what you're advocating for TLG, but if you're saying that the Israelis are justified in shooting Palestinians, you're insane. I hope you're being sarcastic saying that Americans get executed for throwing rocks at cops. You know that's just not true.

Ponder this in Israel's line of thinking, they tell Arafat to stop the bombings (which are committed by extremeist groups that he has no control over). When he can't do anything, or when the police admittedly refuse (which I admit is lame) to stop the terrorists, the Israelis blow up the police station. Where the logic? How the hell is the PA supposed to police its own people as Israel demands if Israel keeps blowing up the police station??????

Consider this, are Apache military helicopters shooting rockets and missles an equal response to a mostly unarmed, rock-throwing people? Anyone that has a decent soul, regardless of political stance, has to say no.

I have no hostilities towards Jews. I love Jews as well as Palestinians. But those in power have to recognize that Israel is set up as a racist society to benefit Jews at the expense of Palestinians. God may have givn the Jews the land, but no where does God call for Israel to be unjust. In fact, most of the Old Testament is God disciplining Israel for being unjust. Ponder this as well, most Jews I know claim it is God's will for them to have the land. On the flip side 90% of Israel is non-practicing and some polls say that up to 40% are athiests. So if some don;t believe in God, how is it God's will for them to have the land. No athiest Jews I've talked to have had much of an answer for that.

[Edited by BrewMaster on 08-26-2001 at 08:21 PM]

[welfareloser]

i won't condone a single damned thing the israelis are doing, but you're right about one thing (and maybe two things :hehehmm: ) - the usa has no bidness tellin nobody they're overreacting.

[Edited by welfareloser on 08-27-2001 at 07:13 AM]

[Sir_Froggy]

jeez......the US gets too involved in other stuff...and we say that they shuldn't overreact...it's not like we've really had anything like what's happening in Isreal here.....or maybe just not in a long time....


and who cares about land?? it's just a piece o dirt....

[BrewMaster]

The US gives Israel $8 Million a DAY. That's about $3 Billion a year, more aid to any other country. Also, Israel gets more aid from the US than all of the 3rd world countries combined. If the US pulled back aid, Israel would collapse. On top of all of the money we give them, we give them countless amounts of our newest military technology. Wherever you stand on this issue, you have to think that there's something wrong with this picture. WE give Israel tons of money but we won't help the STARVING countries in Africa.

I think Bush wants Israel to stop using up the weapons he's sending them so quickly. No president in the history of the US has given a damn about the Palestinians, I don't think Big W is going to be the first. If they actually gave a damn about people and human rights (as they are so fond of blasting China for violating) our foreign policy would look drastically different.

Just wanted to thank y'all for a civilized, intelligent discussion on a hot topic.

[ProMinx]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman

Why is it that Jews aren't entitled to the same reaction?

Because those are OUR weapons, and it's our money. i think that gives the US a damn strong right to tell israel exactly when they can and can't fire. hell, i think bush shouldn't be giving advice...he should just say that they don't have his permission. If Israel basically went ahead with war plans, saying **** you to America...they'd be a burning Arab colony in a week. Israel is like the loud-mouthed 4th grader witha 6th grade brother. Sure he is safe now, but once that older brother heads over to Junior High next year...the brat is going to get the beating of a lifetime.

ProMinx

ps - then again...i think we should cut all of our constant cashflow to Israel anyway. They get an exorbitant amount of our aid while other nations ogo starving, and then Israel still has the balls to make decisions that show blatant disrespect to the country that basically prolongs and allows their life. (and for the record, i am something like 1/8th or 1/16th jewish so back off before you call me an arian bastard)

[BrewMaster]

No problem ProMinx.

Just for the record, in the last meeting between the US and Ariel Sharon, Sharon asked for more aid because of the current situation and, last I checked, the US gave it to them. That's the power of the Jewish lobby in the United States. I'm not bashing the Jews who lobby Washington, they are just taking advantage of a system fueled by money. They didn;t set it up, they are just using it well. Palestinians don't have as much money to lobby so the Palestinian perspective is rarely head from politicians. We see again, money talks, needy people walk.

[ProMinx]

I guess they train all of us, the UCLA students, to think alike in foreign affairs...even when we're firmly based on the opposite side of campus.

What's your major, Mr. Master?

ProMinx

[Grimm]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
It is obvious that Bush has resumed doing coke.

He keeps telling the Israelis to 'show restraint' when innocent people keep getting killed by terrorists.

Whenever someone throws a rock at an American cop, they are promptly executed right there.

Whenever an Iraqi dares to challenge the americans, they are subject to massive bombings.

Why is it that Jews aren't entitled to the same reaction?

I think he means don't nuke them. Cause it would be really embarasing to the US to no longer be the only county that has ever nuked anyone.

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by ProMinx

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman

Why is it that Jews aren't entitled to the same reaction?


ps - then again...i think we should cut all of our constant cashflow to Israel anyway. They get an exorbitant amount of our aid while other nations ogo starving, and then Israel still has the balls to make decisions that show blatant disrespect to the country that basically prolongs and allows their life. (and for the record, i am something like 1/8th or 1/16th jewish so back off before you call me an arian bastard)

Wow, arian bastard :), how did you calculate that 1/16 there hmm?
In any case if anyone gives you a cd player do you listen to it when you want to listen to it or will you call your friend and ask, oooh please please can i use it? Of course not u use it when you know you need to use it... same as israel with the weapons

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by BrewMaster


Ponder this in Israel's line of thinking, they tell Arafat to stop the bombings (which are committed by extremeist groups that he has no control over).

He does have control over them especially because his cabinet has people who plan communicate closely with Jihad and that other "organization" the name of which escapes me, and provide explosives, arms, ammo, and material help to these terrorist organizations. These so called "extremist groups" are praised by the muslim world, well maybe except for people from Pakistan, i never met a muslim from there that wanted anything to do with muslims from Palestine and Iraq, and all of those f**ked up countries



Consider this, are Apache military helicopters shooting rockets and missles an equal response to a mostly unarmed, rock-throwing people? Anyone that has a decent soul, regardless of political stance, has to say no.


You are forgetting something pal, they don't blast innocent people, they blast buildings, mostly government and military buildings and at night, also they blast buildings where by their information bombs are made... and when they need to kill someone, they kill that one person precisely

Quote from news.yahoo.com (biased towards "poor palestinians")

RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - Israel assassinated a Palestinian leader it accused of masterminding a wave of bombings in a missile strike Monday that Palestinian Abu Ali Mustafa, a founder of the Palestine Liberation Organization (news - web sites) (PLO), was killed when helicopter gunships fired missiles through two windows of his top-floor office in a three-story building in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

One missile decapitated him and the other ripped through his body while he sat behind his desk, his colleagues said.

Palestinians said Mustafa, head of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), was the most senior Palestinian political leader killed by Israel since Khalil Wazir, better known as Abu Jihad, was assassinated in Tunis in 1988.

Palestinian radicals threatened to avenge Mustafa's killing. Just hours after the attack, a Jewish settler was fatally wounded by gunmen who ambushed his car near Ramallah. The PFLP claimed responsibility for the shooting.

The strike against Mustafa was so precise the arched window frames were left intact. But the impact of the missiles turned the white outer walls black, demolished the office and left a lingering stench of seared flesh inside.

Aides said Mustafa had received a phone call just before the attack, implying the call was made to check he was there.

The PFLP, a Marxist faction that opposes peacemaking with Israel, has carried out a series of car bombings since the start of the 11-month-old Palestinian revolt against Israeli occupation, in which more than 700 people have been killed.

``When you read his resume, you see it's soaked in the blood of all its (the PFLP's) Jewish victims throughout the years,'' said Raanan Gissin, a government spokesman.

[BrewMaster]

Burzhui, I'm sorry, you're wrong. That article just proves my point. How can you go after people and assassiate them with military helicopters. In case you didn't know, it's illegal under international law, but of course Israel can do whatever they want, right? I agree that terrorists are not doing any good and are hurting innocent people. They need to be stopped. So why doesn't Israel arrest them and put them on trial??? What gives them the right to swoop in and command justice with a push of a buttonfrom an Apache? How can America support this kind of mess called government?

Proof of the illegality (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/07/05/un.mideast/index.html)
"JERUSALEM (CNN) -- United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan called on Israel to stop "what have become known as 'targeted assassinations'" of Palestinian militants, saying Thursday the practice violates international law. "

I wish your article was the only case, but there are others where by standers are killed. Have you ever had a tank roll into your town shooting?

Here's a quote from a
CNN article from today (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/08/27/mideast/index.html)
"At least 33 Palestinian activists have been killed in pinpointed Israeli attacks in the last 11 months of fighting; 10 bystanders were also killed in those attacks. "

10 bystanders! that's 25% of the people Israel has killed in these targeted killings. For the best military in the world, that's a pretty shi**y ratio. Or maybe they just don't relly care that they hit the bystanders. I think that''s more like it.

I can produce many more articles if you'd like, but I think you get the point. The US media does not paint the full picture. Most of the people on G|A? are intelligent people. Please, do your own research. Don't let the American media form your mind. The internet is a great resource. Use it. Use BBC and CNN, they are relatively unbiased.

PS. To answer your question Prominx, I'm a Chemistry/Materials Science major. You?


[Edited by BrewMaster on 08-27-2001 at 01:22 PM]

[sbp]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
It is obvious that Bush has resumed doing coke.

He keeps telling the Israelis to 'show restraint' when innocent people keep getting killed by terrorists.

Whenever someone throws a rock at an American cop, they are promptly executed right there.

Whenever an Iraqi dares to challenge the americans, they are subject to massive bombings.

Why is it that Jews aren't entitled to the same reaction? Right on. Israel should be treated the same as other countries.

So Israel should be subjected to massive bombing for daring to challenge the Americans (in addition to raiding our wallets). ;)

Israel: We demand more money.
US: No. We have things at home we need to take care of.
Israel {indignant): More money now! We need to build more settlements on Palestinian land. {kicks a Palestinian}
US: No.
Israel lobby gets into the act and Israel :kaching: gets the moola. :disa:

[Edited by sbp on 08-27-2001 at 02:06 PM]

[attgig]

Originally posted by BrewMaster
I'm not bashing the Jews who lobby Washington, they are just taking advantage of a system fueled by money.


First, I would like to bash ALL lobbyists in Washington... Kinda sucks that our government has turned into barrels of pork because of them...



Originally posted by BrewMaster
Burzhui, I'm sorry, you're wrong. That article just proves my point. How can you go after people and assassiate them with military helicopters. In case you didn't know, it's illegal under international law, but of course Israel can do whatever they want, right? ....


so, is it illegal under international law for young men to go into a restaurant with a bomb strapped around them and blow up the place?

[sbp]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
It is obvious that Bush has resumed doing coke.

He keeps telling the Palestinians to 'show restraint' when innocent people keep getting killed by terrorists.

Whenever someone throws a rock at an Israeli settler, they are promptly executed right there.

Whenever an Iraqi dares to challenge the americans, they are subject to massive bombings.

Why is it that Jews aren't entitled to the same reaction? Indeed.

[sbp]

Yep I agree gentlemen. No more US money for Israel.

Burzhui: You never did answer in the last Israel thread (http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=188543#post188543) whether you would support cutting off Israel's ca$hflow. Well do you?


Originally posted by BrewMaster
No problem ProMinx.

Just for the record, in the last meeting between the US and Ariel Sharon, Sharon asked for more aid because of the current situation and, last I checked, the US gave it to them. That's the power of the Jewish lobby in the United States. I'm not bashing the Jews who lobby Washington, they are just taking advantage of a system fueled by money. They didn;t set it up, they are just using it well. Palestinians don't have as much money to lobby so the Palestinian perspective is rarely head from politicians. We see again, money talks, needy people walk. Isn't that terrible that happens? Damn!

I agree with BrewMaster the US media coverage is partial and other news sources need to be sought out to get the complete picture.

Some people have come up with wonderful idea of an all out war by Israel. :johnwoo2: Nice solution guys. :rolleyes:

Both sides in this conflict are acting deplorable and neither side is guiltless. From my perspective, one side is just as bad as the other. :thumbdown

[Edited by sbp on 08-27-2001 at 02:25 PM]

[sbp]

Originally posted by att gig
First, I would like to bash ALL lobbyists in Washington... Kinda sucks that our government has turned into barrels of pork because of them...Good bash. :thumbup:

So, is it illegal under international law to tear down another people's homes because they don't to be driven off their land?

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by att gig




Originally posted by BrewMaster
Burzhui, I'm sorry, you're wrong. That article just proves my point. How can you go after people and assassiate them with military helicopters. In case you didn't know, it's illegal under international law, but of course Israel can do whatever they want, right? ....


so, is it illegal under international law for young men to go into a restaurant with a bomb strapped around them and blow up the place?

the two wrongs make a right argument?!?!?!?! you're going to have to do better than that.

[Luxykin007]

what difference does it make in what weapon Israel uses to do their job? I am not saying they should be exempt from international law, but if they didn't use an appache, they could just run in there and gat him, apparently with the dude that got jacked in his office they were pretty precise and didn't kill anyone else, and if this guy IS responsible for all the crap he's done then they would have the right to either arrest him or kill him, and let's face it, you never know what would happen if you showed up with a warrent for this guy. Probably have like 20 dead instead of one.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by Luxykin007
what difference does it make in what weapon Israel uses to do their job? I am not saying they should be exempt from international law, but if they didn't use an appache, they could just run in there and gat him, apparently with the dude that got jacked in his office they were pretty precise and didn't kill anyone else, and if this guy IS responsible for all the crap he's done then they would have the right to either arrest him or kill him, and let's face it, you never know what would happen if you showed up with a warrent for this guy. Probably have like 20 dead instead of one.

I believe China is getting the business end of the stick for doing exactly that. Here in the States, it's called due process, and it's one of our most highly prized values. The Isrealis are getting away with running kangaroo courts or, worse, practicing state-supported vigilantism. Are the Palestinians blameless? Of course not. But no people should be subjected to that type of unjust "justice".

[hapoo]

Originally posted by Burzhui


Ponder this in Israel's line of thinking, they tell Arafat to stop the bombings (which are committed by extremeist groups that he has no control over).
[/B]
He does have control over them especially because his cabinet has people who plan communicate closely with Jihad and that other "organization" the name of which escapes me, and provide explosives, arms, ammo, and material help to these terrorist organizations. These so called "extremist groups" are praised by the muslim world, well maybe except for people from Pakistan, i never met a muslim from there that wanted anything to do with muslims from Palestine and Iraq, and all of those f**ked up countries

[/QUOTE]


you need to shut the **** up before you make a complete ass of yourself. That is the worst generalization I have ever heard, I happen to be from Iran, and yes i AM a muslim. Do you see me commiting terrorist acts? I suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself.

[TheLoneGunman]

Hapoo - he sounded pretty SPECIFIC to me.

Feel free to prove him wrong. However, I have spoken with my share of Muslims (from a variety of places) and I would tend to agree.

I have also lived in Israel.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
Hapoo - he sounded pretty SPECIFIC to me.

Feel free to prove him wrong. However, I have spoken with my share of Muslims (from a variety of places) and I would tend to agree.

I have also lived in Israel.
And that gives you some level of credibility...why?

I think muslims the world over, within and without Iran or Iraq or any of those other "****ed up countries" find little to identify with religious extremism. To paint all the citizens of "****edupland" with the same brush merely exposes your bigotry and/or lack of objectivity.

[welfareloser]

amazing... the less you know about a culture, the more you hate it. good job of advancing the human race, a**holes. sit down and let an iranian gramma cook you a meal before you go talkin sh-t. if people generalized americans based on the politicians, what they see on tv, and the extremists, we'd all seem like a bunch off a**holes too.


oh, wait, i forgot. we are!

[ProMinx]

I do think that Burzhui definitely crossed the line there...
This thread is getting a little too heated...yet again. Needless to say, I was an agressor early in the thread, but now I say everyone should just shut up and choose thir words carefully when they do reply.

BrewMaster - my major is astrophysics...

Hapoo - put down the AK-47 and let's chat :P

[TheLoneGunman]

Originally posted by BrewMaster
Proof of the illegality (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/07/05/un.mideast/index.html)
"JERUSALEM (CNN) -- United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan called on Israel to stop "what have become known as 'targeted assassinations'" of Palestinian militants, saying Thursday the practice violates international law. "

I wish your article was the only case, but there are others where by standers are killed. Have you ever had a tank roll into your town shooting?


Yes, I did!

It was a small city in southern california. Perhaps you heard of it. It was LOS ANGELES!

Tanks rolled in, national guard pulled out M-16's, grenade launchers and other weapons and they fired on civilians.

Any other questions?

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by welfareloser
if people generalized americans based on the politicians, what they see on tv, and the extremistsThey do.
we'd all seem like a bunch off a**holes too.[/B]We do.

[Luxykin007]

I agree with prominx, and think pennypinch should get the award for the most "progress generating" posts. Hapoo, sorry burzhui offended you. It is just really clear we have a conflict of cultures here and sensitivity is, or should be important. Having said that, I am sorry if I offended anyone. Have a good night all, I'm off to work...

[hapoo]

Originally posted by ProMinx

Hapoo - put down the AK-47 and let's chat :P


After reading welfareloser's gramma comment I dropped the Ak-47 on my big toe from laughing :) Thanks welfareloser :) I needed that. And i think your absolutely right, gotta stop hating so much cause of our ignorance.

[BrewMaster]

I wish your article was the only case, but there are others where by standers are killed. Have you ever had a tank roll into your town shooting?
[/B]

Yes, I did!

It was a small city in southern california. Perhaps you heard of it. It was LOS ANGELES!

Tanks rolled in, national guard pulled out M-16's, grenade launchers and other weapons and they fired on civilians.

Any other questions? [/B][/QUOTE]

What the hell are you talking about? That's my question. Maybe I missed something, but I don't recall that happening here in LA. Even the riots were more civil than that.

[BrewMaster]

We can all go back and forth arguing politics-this, Bush-that, but let me tell you a real story from my own experiences in Gaza. There's no cnn article for this, no link to another site. This kind of stuff doesn't get in the news.

My dad is Palestinian, my mom is Belgian. My parents became US citizens in the 70's, I was born a US citizen. We all have American passports. We went to Israel several years ago and were harrassed from the beginning. At the airport when we landed we were sent to a "special" area to wait. The only people in there were arabs. We are not Muslim, we're Christian, but the majority in the area were Muslim. Everyone else coming off of all of the planes passed us right by. This included American tourists, Jews, and basically any other non-Arab or non-Muslim. They walked by as we were "guarded" by soldiers. It was humiliating and scary to be treated a a supposed terrorist. After waiting for about an hour and a half, we were allowed to go into the airport and do our whole customs thing. Racist incident #1.

Then we get to the border of Gaza and Israel. Before the Israeli soldiers (who were 18 years old from NY and NJ) would let us go into Palestinian territory, they wanted my Dad to sign over all of his property rights to our family land in Ramallah (just outside Jerusalem). Why? So that we would have no reason to come back in the future. Back in 1967 when Palestinians were fleeing for their lives, in order to be allowed to leave, Israel had them "give up" their land. That way they wouldn't come back. My dad left Israel before 1967 before they instituted this policy. Now that my grandparents were dead, they wanted our land. Of course my dad refused (I'd never seen him so pissed). We waited there for 3 hours. Finally they got sick of us and let us pass. Racist incident #2.

There were countless ther incidents, but here's the last and the worst. The reason we went to Israel/Palestine in the first place was because my cousin was getting married. It was a happy time for our family. I had another cousin who was 2 at the time also living in Gaza who had leukemia, his name was Monsour. The hospitals in Gaza are nothing to speak about. They can't treat leukemia. His parents would take him out of Gaza into Israel to be treated at real hospital. According to doctors, his leukemia could be treated and he had a good chance to survive. Well, 3 days after the wedding he became very sick and his parents wanted to take him out of Gaza to the hospital. They tried for days but the Israeli's would not give them a permit to travel to the hospital (all Palestinians needs permits to travel outside of Palestinian areas). He died several days later. A 2-YEAR OLD DIED BECAUSE OF BULLS**T POLITICS!!! He died in his mother's arms all because this sick little 2-year old and his parents were seen as a threat to big-bad-Israel. He died of a curable disease! Racist incident #3.

I don't hate Jews or Israelis. I don't hold any annimocity. I've forgiven them. He's not the only family member of mine that's died there either. Just remember this when you speak in lofty terms about what's going on in Israel. It's not a joke. These are people's families dying. That "terrorist" who died without a trial had a family. Innocent children are dying. Many die by bullets and guns, and many others over travel permits. I agree that both sides are at fault. It is in Israel's power to change things. Palestinians can hardly wipe their a** without concent from Israel. That's why people are going crazy and blowing sh*t up. They have nothing to look forward to. It seems hopeless. What would you do if your family was dropping around you? You'd go crazy too. My aunt there in Gaza is one of the strongest people I know.

And to those people who say "the Palestinians are sending their kids out there to die in the streets while throwing rocks as martyrs and because Arafat said they should," that's insane. We are good, normal people. No one sends their kids out to die like animals. Give me a break.

I hope this was educational for all of you. Not as light hearted as usual, but I figured y'all might want to know this stuff.

-The Brew

P.S. Luxykin007, with your quote from Acts, you (and everyone, regardless of our faiths) should start praying for peace. I am. Please join me.

[TheLoneGunman]

Brew - What "race" are you? Is this a different race than the people from NY and NJ you described? If not, how is it "racist"?

If "palestinians" are a separate "race" then this is a miraculous biological discovery.

Did your family try to go to Jordan? If so, you would have been "welcomed" a lot worse. Ask your Dad about the "Black September". King Hussein treated HIS OWN PEOPLE a lot worse than Sharon even has.

The term "palenstinian" comes from the Roman term for the area "Phillestina" Do you consider yourself to be descended from the Phillestines? They were an evil warlike people with many despicable customs. One of them was child sacrifice. Is that your family's belief? If so, I think I can line up many on this board that would line up against and not on "racist" grounds. If you are not claiming that heritage, but simply that you Dad was born in that area of the world, then why couldn't he call himself "Israeli" (or Jordanian?) At the time he was born, he obviously lived in SOME country (and there has never been a COUNTRY called palestine). If he was born under the British mandate, then he is British (just as a person born in the territory of Bermuda is). If he was born in Jordan, then he is Jordanian. Just as I can't claim to be African (see previous thread) because at some point my family had roots there, you can claim to be from a non-existant place.

[attgig]

wow, lot has gone on here since i last posted here!

brew...
that is a crazy story, and it's sad that it happens...
but I don't understand how you say "It is in Israel's power to change things." I don't believe that one side has the power to change what's going on there, but rather, it's both sides that need to do things and stop doing other things....


And to those people who say "the Palestinians are sending their kids out there to die in the streets while throwing rocks as martyrs and because Arafat said they should," that's insane. We are good, normal people. No one sends their kids out to die like animals. Give me a break.

about this....the people who do this are usually about my age...early 20's late teens..they don't need parents to tell them to do it...they fit my age group...people who are somewhat reckless...taking risks, going gung ho...action people, not talk people....it only takes one person to say 'I'.

and Peace...that's tough..
Definitely something that EVERYONE wants....but in different ways. :( but, seriously, totally agree with you, we all should be praying for peace...

[hapoo]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
Brew - What "race" are you? Is this a different race than the people from NY and NJ you described? If not, how is it "racist"?

If "palestinians" are a separate "race" then this is a miraculous biological discovery.

Did your family try to go to Jordan? If so, you would have been "welcomed" a lot worse. Ask your Dad about the "Black September". King Hussein treated HIS OWN PEOPLE a lot worse than Sharon even has.

The term "palenstinian" comes from the Roman term for the area "Phillestina" Do you consider yourself to be descended from the Phillestines? They were an evil warlike people with many despicable customs. One of them was child sacrifice. Is that your family's belief? If so, I think I can line up many on this board that would line up against and not on "racist" grounds. If you are not claiming that heritage, but simply that you Dad was born in that area of the world, then why couldn't he call himself "Israeli" (or Jordanian?) At the time he was born, he obviously lived in SOME country (and there has never been a COUNTRY called palestine). If he was born under the British mandate, then he is British (just as a person born in the territory of Bermuda is). If he was born in Jordan, then he is Jordanian. Just as I can't claim to be African (see previous thread) because at some point my family had roots there, you can claim to be from a non-existant place.




What is the point of your post?! How does this change what he went through? Does this justify it? Please explain.

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by hapoo

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
Brew - What "race" are you? Is this a different race than the people from NY and NJ you described? If not, how is it "racist"?

If "palestinians" are a separate "race" then this is a miraculous biological discovery.

Did your family try to go to Jordan? If so, you would have been "welcomed" a lot worse. Ask your Dad about the "Black September". King Hussein treated HIS OWN PEOPLE a lot worse than Sharon even has.

The term "palenstinian" comes from the Roman term for the area "Phillestina" Do you consider yourself to be descended from the Phillestines? They were an evil warlike people with many despicable customs. One of them was child sacrifice. Is that your family's belief? If so, I think I can line up many on this board that would line up against and not on "racist" grounds. If you are not claiming that heritage, but simply that you Dad was born in that area of the world, then why couldn't he call himself "Israeli" (or Jordanian?) At the time he was born, he obviously lived in SOME country (and there has never been a COUNTRY called palestine). If he was born under the British mandate, then he is British (just as a person born in the territory of Bermuda is). If he was born in Jordan, then he is Jordanian. Just as I can't claim to be African (see previous thread) because at some point my family had roots there, you can claim to be from a non-existant place.




What is the point of your post?! How does this change what he went through? Does this justify it? Please explain.

TLG, that was low. I've lost a lot of respect for you. I'm not even going to respond to your questions and criticisms TLG. You know that all that crap you wrote above was in some sort of defensive panic. Thanks for jumping in hapoo.

[TheLoneGunman]

Why is it low?

You are throwing around "shock words" just to get attention.

I was simply calling you on it.

[BrewMaster]

No, I'm not throwing around "shock words" to ge attention. I don't need attention. This is a forum for anyone who cares to read it.

It's racism because I, a Palestinian, am being treated differently just because of my heritage. Jews are not treated the same as Palestinians in Israel. You said you lived there, you should know that well. Call it what you want, discrimination, human rights violations, whatever. I don't give a sh*t about semantics. You know it's wrong so stop trying to skirt the issue by questioning my heritage or my choice of words.

[attgig]

it is racism, but that's how they live over there...
just always in fear...
and as i said, it's not solely up to the Israeli's to change that.....

[TheLoneGunman]

How did any know your "heritage"? Unlike most countries, the US does not indicate religous background on a passport?

Word choice IS important.

My grandfather was born in the Palestinian Mandate. Therefore, am I a Palestinian? If so, I have never experienced "heritage descrimination" as you described. I have, however, been questioned by the FBI because these "palestinians" who keep killing themselves have a habit of blaming it on people.

As far as your "respect" for me, this is an anonymous message board. It is entirely possible that you know of me in "real life" and have already "lost respect" or perhaps the opposite is true. Either way, I would appreciate it if you stop using the "race" card when it doesn't apply.

[hapoo]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
Why is it low?

You are throwing around "shock words" just to get attention.

I was simply calling you on it.


Which comes as more of a shock. The word "Racism" , Or the fact that a 2 year old dying when something could have been done to prevent it. Call it what you want but its discrimination, but you probably have another paragraph waiting around to warp my words as well.

[BrewMaster]

att gig, racism can not just be dismissed as "that's just how they live." They need to change it. It is ingrained in the government and the laws. Palestinians who live on PA lands (that's 94% of Palestinians) can't vote yet the government has an enourmous influence on their lives. In Israel you are required to show proof of military service to buy a house or land. Guess what?! Palestinians are prohibited from military service, effectively prohibiting them from buying land. I know no Palestinians would want to serve in the Israeli military, but don't you see that the system is just slanted against Palestinians. They should remove that requirement to serve in the military in order to buy land. The laws need to be changed and only the Israelis can do that.

I say that it's up to the Israelis to change things because if they stopped oppressing Palestinians, they wouldn't have suicide bombers after them. I'm not condoning the bombers or terrorists in anyway, don't misunderstand me. I think they are retarded and need to knock that sh*t off and stop killing Israelis. But when Israel gets revenge 20x over each time, it just fuels the fire more. They think they'll scare the extremists into stopping the violence, but it just riles them up even more. Israel needs to change their laws and make it a free society. In its present state it opperates much like appartheid South Africa. (No TLG I'm not just saying that to get attention.) The laws and the set up of the government in Israel are too similar to not draw that comparison. Palestinians are treated like second class citizens and that's not cool.

thanks again hapoo.

[poiselle]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
Brew - What "race" are you? Is this a different race than the people from NY and NJ you described? If not, how is it "racist"?

If "palestinians" are a separate "race" then this is a miraculous biological discovery.

Did your family try to go to Jordan? If so, you would have been "welcomed" a lot worse. Ask your Dad about the "Black September". King Hussein treated HIS OWN PEOPLE a lot worse than Sharon even has.

The term "palenstinian" comes from the Roman term for the area "Phillestina" Do you consider yourself to be descended from the Phillestines? They were an evil warlike people with many despicable customs. One of them was child sacrifice. Is that your family's belief? If so, I think I can line up many on this board that would line up against and not on "racist" grounds. If you are not claiming that heritage, but simply that you Dad was born in that area of the world, then why couldn't he call himself "Israeli" (or Jordanian?) At the time he was born, he obviously lived in SOME country (and there has never been a COUNTRY called palestine). If he was born under the British mandate, then he is British (just as a person born in the territory of Bermuda is). If he was born in Jordan, then he is Jordanian. Just as I can't claim to be African (see previous thread) because at some point my family had roots there, you can claim to be from a non-existant place.


Why is this everyone's favorite argument? Everytime this thread starts people start arguing that there is no such thing as a palestinian. Lets call them martians for all I care, it does not change the fact that bad things are happening to them. Bad things are also happening to Israel, but that does not give them a right to kill individuals without a trial. If you want to take the moral high ground then start acting like it.

[BrewMaster]

Well said poiselle.

-The Brew (your resident Martian for lack of a better word)

[TheLoneGunman]

Originally posted by BrewMaster
It is ingrained in the government and the laws. Palestinians who live on PA lands (that's 94% of Palestinians) can't vote yet the government has an enourmous influence on their lives. In Israel you are required to show proof of military service to buy a house or land. Guess what?!

In Mexico, non-Mexicans are not allowed to own beachfront property. Does that mean they are racist?

In the US, significant numbers of Americans are prohibited from voting, is that racist?

Where exactly does Arafat live? Obviously if what you say is correct, he couldn't be living in a house.

[Burzhui]

Holy **** i missed a lot, i was upstate new york without access to a computer but now i am back.

First and foremost Brewmaster, F*uck you for putting that palestinian flag there. If you love ot so much you go and live there and we'll see how long you will hold up.
Second of all i don't support cutting the cash flow into israel, for one simple reason, it's a small country in a friggin desert surrounded by that fuc*ed up IRAN, IRAG, Palestine, so on and so forth. Just like all those countries were and still are supported by russia, F*cking Yeltsin, i hope he rots in hell.
Third of all do you think america does not assasinate people? If you think so then you are ignorant.

[poiselle]

Originally posted by Burzhui
...
Third of all do you think america does not assasinate people? If you think so then you are ignorant.
You are right, America probably does assasinate people. They also have the sense to do it a bit more quietly than launching rockets at people from helicopters. And it is wrong. America seems to love doing stupid things abroad. I don't agree when America does it either. Just because I am American does not mean that I don't think we act inappropriately. I think that boycotting the UN children's summit is wrong as well.

[BrewMaster]

I agree with poiselle...again.

F*ck me for putting the flag up here? Why? What did I do but represent my people? I would go live there but Israel won't let Palestinians move in, only Jews. You need to chill.



In Mexico, non-Mexicans are not allowed to own beachfront property. Does that mean they are racist?

In the US, significant numbers of Americans are prohibited from voting, is that racist?

Where exactly does Arafat live? Obviously if what you say is correct, he couldn't be living in a house.

I don't know anything about the Mexican situation and I'm not going to pretend to. If it is how you say it is, I would call it racist. But we're not here to talk about Mexico are we....

How and where are Americans prohibited from voting? Are you talking about the 18-year old voting age? I hope not because that's ridiculous.

Arafat has a house in the Gaza strip. He does not live in Israel proper. He, like most other Palestinians, lives on PA land. He can't buy land in Israel for the reasons already stated. I don't know though if I can call it PA governed land anymore since Israel has rolled its tanks in there again. By the way TLG, you never answered my question as to what you were talking about claiming LA was overrun by tanks and grenades?

This thread is starting to get a little heated. I hope we can maintian a civil discussion between intelligent people and not insult each other. No hostility needed (Burzhui).

[hapoo]

Originally posted by Burzhui

Holy **** i missed a lot, i was upstate new york without access to a computer but now i am back.

First and foremost Brewmaster, F*uck you for putting that palestinian flag there. If you love ot so much you go and live there and we'll see how long you will hold up.
Second of all i don't support cutting the cash flow into israel, for one simple reason, it's a small country in a friggin desert surrounded by that fuc*ed up IRAN, IRAG, Palestine, so on and so forth. Just like all those countries were and still are supported by russia, F*cking Yeltsin, i hope he rots in hell.
Third of all do you think america does not assasinate people? If you think so then you are ignorant.


Russia doesn't have enough money to keep their own country running, how would they support another country? I'm pretty much speechless, Its not worth my time or energy to even argue anymore with someone so close-minded and bigoted.

[sbp]

What's wrong with putting the Palestinian flag there Burzhui? Coming from a guy who doesn't want to cut off the cash flow into Israel, its amusing your telling Brewmaster to go live over there.

BrewMaster, TLG may be talking about jailbirds who can't vote.

[Luxykin007]

Obviously this is a hot issue, but seriously... I don't see how pissing on someone else's campfire helps anything, or makes anyone feel better, but I am happy that brew has palistianian heritage and is proud of it. Not very many of us can say we are seriously proud of our national heritage... Anyway, I hope you guys can talk all of this out without hating e/o just because you feel differently about what's going on over there.

[BrewMaster]

Good call Luxykin007.

I think you can be proud of your national heritage though. I don't know what your heritage is but you can be proud of it. There's good things about every culture. Sure, they've all f'ed up and made mistakes, but God forgives, we should too. I know people always come down hard on white people for racism and what not, but you can be proud to be white. It's not a curse, it's a blessing whatever race someone might be. I love being Palestinian because there's so much great stuff to my heritage. I know that there's great stuff to others' heritages too, that's why I love going to my freinds homes and experiencing new cultures.

I've even gone to the UCLA Hillel meetings (a Jewish group if people didn't know) to experience their food and cultural environment. I had a great time and made some good friends. We may disagree on some things, but we talk out our differences like civilized people and learn from each other. Anyone can talk about being open-minded, but as everything, it takes action.

[Luxykin007]

I am basically your typical Americal melting pot product. Some scottish, Irish, German... I think way down the line somewhere there is African too, but I sure get fried like a white-boy. I honestly envy black people because they don't have to wear greasy sunscreen.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Burzhui
Holy **** i missed a lot, i was upstate new york without access to a computer but now i am back.

First and foremost Brewmaster, F*uck you for putting that palestinian flag there. If you love ot so much you go and live there and we'll see how long you will hold up.
Second of all i don't support cutting the cash flow into israel, for one simple reason, it's a small country in a friggin desert surrounded by that fuc*ed up IRAN, IRAG, Palestine, so on and so forth. Just like all those countries were and still are supported by russia, F*cking Yeltsin, i hope he rots in hell.
Third of all do you think america does not assasinate people? If you think so then you are ignorant.

so if the usa assassinates, it's okay for israel???? if you want to argue that what they're doing is okay, go ahead, but PLEASE spare us another incarnation of the two wrongs make a right argument.

so do you think you are any different from a skinhead telling a black man "feck you for wearing that kente hat take it off now i hate you everyone like you is so fecked up?" (i think the only difference is that you are less eloquent than most 16-year-old dropout skinheads)

"go there and see how long you will hold up?!?!?!??!?!" is that like "go there and i hope someone kills you? nice.

and i am appalled at the round of trashing brewmaster received for his stories. he related his experiences. if you don't think it was racism that caused these things to happen, fine, you two, but you'd better come up with a better explanation. "you're wrong, thpppffft, you used an incorrect term so everything you said is stupid" is beyond stupid. i really can't believe tlg or burzhui... can your heads be that far buried? do you truly not even see how ridiculous you sound?

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by poiselle

Originally posted by Burzhui
...
Third of all do you think america does not assasinate people? If you think so then you are ignorant.
You are right, America probably does assasinate people. They also have the sense to do it a bit more quietly than launching rockets at people from helicopters. And it is wrong. America seems to love doing stupid things abroad. I don't agree when America does it either. Just because I am American does not mean that I don't think we act inappropriately. I think that boycotting the UN children's summit is wrong as well.
Well ok it's not like those rockets were tomahawks you know?
Those were just like grenade top rockets, i mean it just insinerated the inside of the office it didn't even damamge any walls, those rockets were created exactly for these kinds of missions, personally i think it's much more potent then a sniper shot.

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by hapoo

Originally posted by Burzhui

Holy **** i missed a lot, i was upstate new york without access to a computer but now i am back.

First and foremost Brewmaster, F*uck you for putting that palestinian flag there. If you love ot so much you go and live there and we'll see how long you will hold up.
Second of all i don't support cutting the cash flow into israel, for one simple reason, it's a small country in a friggin desert surrounded by that fuc*ed up IRAN, IRAG, Palestine, so on and so forth. Just like all those countries were and still are supported by russia, F*cking Yeltsin, i hope he rots in hell.
Third of all do you think america does not assasinate people? If you think so then you are ignorant.


Russia doesn't have enough money to keep their own country running, how would they support another country? I'm pretty much speechless, Its not worth my time or energy to even argue anymore with someone so close-minded and bigoted.

Well that was harsh hapoo i never expected anything like that from you. Do you truly not know about the support that Russia has given them? It was all done to get crude oil from those countries... why do you think they have Migs and AK-47th, and Faust-Patrons, hmmm?

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Burzhui

Originally posted by hapoo

Originally posted by Burzhui

Holy **** i missed a lot, i was upstate new york without access to a computer but now i am back.

First and foremost Brewmaster, F*uck you for putting that palestinian flag there. If you love ot so much you go and live there and we'll see how long you will hold up.
Second of all i don't support cutting the cash flow into israel, for one simple reason, it's a small country in a friggin desert surrounded by that fuc*ed up IRAN, IRAG, Palestine, so on and so forth. Just like all those countries were and still are supported by russia, F*cking Yeltsin, i hope he rots in hell.
Third of all do you think america does not assasinate people? If you think so then you are ignorant.


Russia doesn't have enough money to keep their own country running, how would they support another country? I'm pretty much speechless, Its not worth my time or energy to even argue anymore with someone so close-minded and bigoted.

Well that was harsh hapoo i never expected anything like that from you. Do you truly not know about the support that Russia has given them? It was all done to get crude oil from those countries... why do you think they have Migs and AK-47th, and Faust-Patrons, hmmm?

scroll up juuuuuust a lil bit... i don't think it was what you said about russia that was close-minded and bigoted.

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by sbp
What's wrong with putting the Palestinian flag there Burzhui? Coming from a guy who doesn't want to cut off the cash flow into Israel, its amusing your telling Brewmaster to go live over there.

BrewMaster, TLG may be talking about jailbirds who can't vote.


Dude, i was just a little off yesterday, just some personal problems and i guess i went off a little, i needed to vent and that flag was there, and i am sorry... however what does that have to do with me telling him to go and live there, i lived there and i've seen how people are treated, and to tell you the truth i am only against arabs that live there. They were all, and i am not generalazing, but all the arabs i've met, that were in the congress or in the shook, or club owners, or even hookah parlor patrons, were all a$$holes, nad just straight out animals. i have muslim friends and with some i am very close, but they are not from that area. I have some muslim friends from egypt, but any closer to the "damned" area, and people become mean and aggressive

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by welfareloser

Originally posted by Burzhui
Holy **** i missed a lot, i was upstate new york without access to a computer but now i am back.

First and foremost Brewmaster, F*uck you for putting that palestinian flag there. If you love ot so much you go and live there and we'll see how long you will hold up.
Second of all i don't support cutting the cash flow into israel, for one simple reason, it's a small country in a friggin desert surrounded by that fuc*ed up IRAN, IRAG, Palestine, so on and so forth. Just like all those countries were and still are supported by russia, F*cking Yeltsin, i hope he rots in hell.
Third of all do you think america does not assasinate people? If you think so then you are ignorant.

so if the usa assassinates, it's okay for israel???? if you want to argue that what they're doing is okay, go ahead, but PLEASE spare us another incarnation of the two wrongs make a right argument.

so do you think you are any different from a skinhead telling a black man "feck you for wearing that kente hat take it off now i hate you everyone like you is so fecked up?" (i think the only difference is that you are less eloquent than most 16-year-old dropout skinheads)

"go there and see how long you will hold up?!?!?!??!?!" is that like "go there and i hope someone kills you? nice.

and i am appalled at the round of trashing brewmaster received for his stories. he related his experiences. if you don't think it was racism that caused these things to happen, fine, you two, but you'd better come up with a better explanation. "you're wrong, thpppffft, you used an incorrect term so everything you said is stupid" is beyond stupid. i really can't believe tlg or burzhui... can your heads be that far buried? do you truly not even see how ridiculous you sound?

YOu have a problem dude, you generalize too much, i have some skinhead friends as well, most of them are SHARPS = Skin Heads Against Racial Prejudice... and they can't stand the racist skinheads, which only take up one branch out of five skinhead branches... in any case that was just a little explanation on the whole skinhead turm that you threw around... by the way, yes i am jewish and no i am not a skinhead of any kind

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by Burzhui

Originally posted by poiselle

Originally posted by Burzhui
...
Third of all do you think america does not assasinate people? If you think so then you are ignorant.
You are right, America probably does assasinate people. They also have the sense to do it a bit more quietly than launching rockets at people from helicopters. And it is wrong. America seems to love doing stupid things abroad. I don't agree when America does it either. Just because I am American does not mean that I don't think we act inappropriately. I think that boycotting the UN children's summit is wrong as well.
Well ok it's not like those rockets were tomahawks you know?
Those were just like grenade top rockets, i mean it just insinerated the inside of the office it didn't even damamge any walls, those rockets were created exactly for these kinds of missions, personally i think it's much more potent then a sniper shot.

You're missing the point entirely. What gives these people the right to just storm in there and blow this guy up, regardless of how surgical or precise the attack was? Last I checked, we were supposed to be supporting democracies. I think Isreal has long forsaken that respected title: only a fraction of those born there get to vote, and they perpetrate the exact same "human rights violations" that we condemn far less sh*t-disturby countries like China for. Let's face it, when was the last time we had to broker a peace between South Korea and China?

Your pungently ignorant statements in the post just above mine put on display the blind hatred and patently racist mentality that pervades the region generally. Straight out animals? I'd say it is you that's the animal that can paint a people of a particular type of colour as "animals".

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by Burzhui
YOu have a problem dude, you generalize too much
:heh:

[attgig]

wow, this thread is getting heated again...
chill people .....

anyways, my $.02:
Brew:
yeah, I agree that racism sucks, and it shouldn't be condoned because that's how they've been doing things, but I don't think your answer will solve problems.

I say that it's up to the Israelis to change things because if they stopped oppressing Palestinians, they wouldn't have suicide bombers after them. I'm not condoning the bombers or terrorists in anyway, don't misunderstand me. I think they are retarded and need to knock that sh*t off and stop killing Israelis. But when Israel gets revenge 20x over each time, it just fuels the fire more.
It's more than just civil rights and getting treated 'fairly'. It's more fundamental than that: Faith. That difference will cause fundamentalists to go and do horrible acts of violence. When a group claims responsibility for the bombings, I've never heard them say it was because they were being discriminated, but rather it was based on their faith (terms like fundamentalist & sects always come out). Basic Moslem doctrine condones killing people that are not muslim. I know, crusades, etc. etc. but this precedent of killing those who would not convert was set by the founder of the islam faith, where as the founders of other religions didn't go out murdering those who wouldn't convert. Yeah, there's messed up people everywhere doing things in the name of their god. But, I'd be digressing by talking about them...

That is why I'm saying Israel giving them human rights will not make it any better. It's good for Israel to do that, and I think they should too. However, it won't keep people from doing crazy things....and in their mind, it'll make it worse...

Also, thinking of what minorities in this country went through to get their rights, I would hope that they would teach about Dr. Martin Luther King's struggle around the world.

[pennypinch]

I'd agree that if such oppression existed in the States (what am I talking about, it DID exist in the States) MLK Jr's brand of non-violent protest would be a great idea. But, even in the bad old days, even oppressed minorities had constitutional or legal protections to which they could appeal. Sure, it required an enlightened person to enforce and uphold said protections, but at least someone had put pen to paper.

Those protections clearly either do not exist or those in power have no interest in enforcing them. I get the sad feeling that if a group of Palestinian protesters just sat there, the Isreali military would do something unspeakable. The result: you guessed it, more suicide bomber goodness!

The escalation of stupidity needs to be stopped at some point. For every car bomb there is an equally repugnant lawless assasination, without trial or jury might I add, which in turn requires a retaliatory car bomb. Perhaps Bush is actually saying something meaningful for once!

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by pennypinch

Originally posted by Burzhui

Originally posted by poiselle

Originally posted by Burzhui
...
Third of all do you think america does not assasinate people? If you think so then you are ignorant.
You are right, America probably does assasinate people. They also have the sense to do it a bit more quietly than launching rockets at people from helicopters. And it is wrong. America seems to love doing stupid things abroad. I don't agree when America does it either. Just because I am American does not mean that I don't think we act inappropriately. I think that boycotting the UN children's summit is wrong as well.
Well ok it's not like those rockets were tomahawks you know?
Those were just like grenade top rockets, i mean it just insinerated the inside of the office it didn't even damamge any walls, those rockets were created exactly for these kinds of missions, personally i think it's much more potent then a sniper shot.

You're missing the point entirely. What gives these people the right to just storm in there and blow this guy up, regardless of how surgical or precise the attack was? Last I checked, we were supposed to be supporting democracies. I think Isreal has long forsaken that respected title: only a fraction of those born there get to vote, and they perpetrate the exact same "human rights violations" that we condemn far less sh*t-disturby countries like China for. Let's face it, when was the last time we had to broker a peace between South Korea and China?

Your pungently ignorant statements in the post just above mine put on display the blind hatred and patently racist mentality that pervades the region generally. Straight out animals? I'd say it is you that's the animal that can paint a people of a particular type of colour as "animals".

You know what, if you actually paid attention when you read my statement you would have seen that i said that i don't hate all muslims, and why are you trying to make me out like a racist? I said nothing about people of the same color, on the contrary, i stated that i do have muslim friends from other regions then palestine ... and that only the people from that region, when i was there, were animalistic.

[pennypinch]

Ah, the infamous "I have friends that are black/gay/women" defense...:rolleyes:

Look, for you to accuse someone else of generalizations, then turn around and do the same thing!

Perhaps I should give a blow-by-blow replay of your logic:

a) you meet 10, 20, 30, 100 people of a particular colour in a region. They are not nice to you (perhaps given that you look like the type of person that has been oppressing them for years).

b) You find their behavior to be animalistic.

c) Therefore, all people that look like those 10-100 people are therefore animals, despite the fact that your sample ranges from as high as one whole percent to a miniscule fraction.

I would hope, as either a college graduate or a college student, you have the cerebral capacity to recognize that this is pure bigotry.

[Kenas]

I have to admit, Mr. Arafat among with billions of dollars that he gets from the Arabic world, did a great job of winning the media war, to show the "poor" Palestinians under oppression.
Right away I want to point out, that the only reason why Jordan supports Palestine is because Jordan is afraid the big amount of Palestinians refugees on their land. As the King of Jordan said, that they don't have enough water to get more refuges (the water to Jordan comes from Keneret Lake, from Israel)
Now, going back to Palestine, today Palestinian military general Musa Arafat, said that he believes that Israel is planning to kill Arafat. Because G. W. Bush gave Israel a green light to do so. I want to point out that Israel believes that at this point Arafat is the only politician that is able to negotiate with Israel, and Israel has NO plans of killing Arafat. On the other hand, for the past few months Palestinian military groups (there are many of them, and often they are in Arafat’s opposition) had been in another war with each other, for popularity among Palestinians. Arafat is trying to stop the violence (I guess hard enough to keep the support from Jordan and Egypt) but he just can't because he is like a brake for young extremist leaders of the terrorist groupings in PA desperately torn to authority. And elimination of Arafat would be a very good step for them to move on or even create the revolution, and the responsibility for happened to throw on shoulders of Israel.

So, you! The young America, who is trying to see who is right or wrong. Let's see today, what will happen.
Today, Yaser Arafat has given an order on the discontinuance of bombardments of Jerusalem quarter Gilo from village Beit-Jala. The order was given after Israel has declared that Israel will withdraw from Beit-Jala only after full cease-fire and an establishment of calmness in this area. And lets see, who will listen the PA leader Arafat.

[BrewMaster]

I don't appreciate being called an animal Burzhui. What did they do that was so animalistic anyway? Did they bite trees? scratch the door with their claws? mate in the streets? bury bones in the yard? WHAT? Were they just rude to you? I'm not saying it's ok for them to be rude, but I've had my fair share of encounters with rude Jews and I don't bad-mouth Jews and insult them. It does no good and it wouldn't be true to say "All Jews in Israel are...." You need to choose your words better my friend. That was not cool. You make Palestinians sound like some awful breed of God knows what. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ME! I think you might want to refrain from posting anything else in this thread for everyone's sake. You're making me physically ill.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/mideast/interactive/palestinian.gallery/07.jpg
Animals?

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/mideast/interactive/palestinian.gallery/08.jpg
Animalistic?

http://www.msnbc.com/c/0/3/493/inline/010521_mideast_09.jpg

Your muslim friends should read this thread, I bet they wouldn't be too happy....

[Edited by BrewMaster on 08-29-2001 at 12:15 PM]

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by pennypinch

Originally posted by Burzhui
YOu have a problem dude, you generalize too much
:heh:
I told you what i've seen with my own eyes, hardly a generalization

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by pennypinch
Ah, the infamous "I have friends that are black/gay/women" defense...:rolleyes:

Look, for you to accuse someone else of generalizations, then turn around and do the same thing!

Perhaps I should give a blow-by-blow replay of your logic:

a) you meet 10, 20, 30, 100 people of a particular colour in a region. They are not nice to you (perhaps given that you look like the type of person that has been oppressing them for years).

b) You find their behavior to be animalistic.

c) Therefore, all people that look like those 10-100 people are therefore animals, despite the fact that your sample ranges from as high as one whole percent to a miniscule fraction.

I would hope, as either a college graduate or a college student, you have the cerebral capacity to recognize that this is pure bigotry.
Look tell you the truth i've met more then 100 people... i met about 200 during one day in the shook, the only good people that i have actually met whom were nice and of a similar origin, were the bedoins... who were really cool.

And no i don't look like a person that's been "opressing" them for decades (it's them who are opressing the jews and not the other way around, if you people looked outside of the biased newspapers and tv stations, and actually went there you would see that you are wrong) I don't look like an Israely, cause i'm not, so your theory just crashed

[Burzhui]

You see that dead child that you put in your signiture? what are you tring to prove by that? YOu want me to post the picture from that dance club bombing where children died? The oldest was 18 the youngest was 14, and for what... hmm? innocent children who went to a club to dance?

As for being animalistic, you descrivbed the actions of dogs... i like dogs, but in israel it was a different kind of animal:

When someone offers you to buy child Pr0n, that's animalistic,
when an older hassidic jew is walking down the street and gets attacked by 3 young arabs, knowing that he will not fight back, and he didn't... that's animalistic, i dunno what would have happened if my friends weren't there.
when you are walking in the shook and some @$$hole comes up to and tells you let's go behind my store and fight for a hundred dollars and you see shaddows and hear murmurs behind the store... that's animalistic.

When you see tapes from the training camps of Jihad, HAMAS, and i think it was PLO... where those cowards put their own children in front of themselves and in a seperate segment train them with AK-47's, Kriscofs, etc. That is also animalistic... and you know what i feel sorry for those children... it's not their fault that their parent's are so f*cked up....
and i am not saying that every single one of the people living there is bad, i am just saying that the majority, and all of those who i have met were just like i have described, that is exactly why i am not saying nuke those motherf*ckers. All i am saying is stop this friggin violence, it's pointless and useless, and that it is very unfair to blame israel because if you have ever lived there you can see that they act and live off of israel like parasites, their neighborhoods are dirty, they don't pay taxes, and terorize the population...

[Kenas]

OHH!!!!!
Don't show me these pictures, I have planty of pictures, with out you!!! I would post them all up, but they are not on a web site.

[BrewMaster]

Did you read what you just wrote Burzhui? You claim the Palestinians are oppressing the Israelis? Haha! And the Native Americans oppressed the United States, right? I think everyone knows that what you wrote is bullsh*t.

Are there any Israelis/Jews willing to take responsibility for what Israel has done? TLG and Burzhui just want to argue and make excuses. Did you not read the story about my 2-year old cousin? Does that not make you stop and think about HUMANITY. Not Israel, not Palestinians, just people. Of course you're upset the Jews are being killed, and rightly so. Put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian. We've lost 17x more people in the last year. I know that doesn't mean much because death is death and it sucks, but to be honest, I think a lot of the pain and anger we feel is the same regardless of Jew or Palestinian. Is it really necessary to spew so much animosity towards me and other Palestinians. I haven't really insulted you, have I? If I have I apologize TLG and Burzhui. I thought we could have a discussion but then TLG goes and writes stuff like this (see the 5th post) (http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=29584)

[pennypinch]

Holy christ...:disa:

When you say something like "they were all straight up animals" and refer to a group of people, whose entire population I'm sure you cannot have met on an individual basis, that's called a generalization.

And don't try and tell me you were only referring to the people you did meet, because being "against arabs that live there" is certainly not referring to the few people you met.

Furthermore, I think if you examine coverage of the conflict throughout history, you'll see that the media has been VERY pro-Isreali. You can only perpetuate a half-truth for so long. Removal of Soviet-American bias from the region has widened the coverage to be more balanced.

[Kenas]

WOW Arafat did HELL of a job! Asking his people to stop the violence and stop shootings. The violence did not stop, now Palestinians shooting with mortar guns at the Jewish quarters of Jerusalem, mines are everywhere.

NOW that's a great FREAKING leadership Mr. Arafat! Way to go!!

[attgig]

cmon people....

both sides screwed/are screwing up...
stop saying one side is right and the other side is wrong...cause that's ridiculous. Burzhui, about crime, well, it happens everywhere...please don't say that they're animalistic because they commit crimes...things like that happen in my neighborhood too....they happen in almost all metropolitans....about the armies, training kids, etc...well yeah, they're wrong, and messed up...I don't think anyone would deny that being messed up..

Brew, likewise, Jews aren't the cause of all the problems, they do what they feel they have to do to protect themselves, all countries have measures against terrorism, etc. but because of whatever reason (and i think they have a few), they're a bit more extreme than others. Also, there are 'borders' that people make, and well, there's security with that too. Do all Mexicans needing medical help living near the border come to America to get health care? nope...(i know, not a perfect analogy, but ...)but again, Brew, what they do is messed up, and it's not cool to deny human rights....

[Grimm]

BrewMaster,
How does being nationalistic and aggressive solve the problem? The Jews have been beat on for thousands of years; they finally stand up and say that they are not going to take it anymore and the Palestinians scream foul? I don't think so.
A Palestinian bomb maker's house blows up, he build bombs to randomly kill Israelites, and the Palestinians immediately accuse Israel of using a missile to blow it up. Despite the obvious evidence that he accidentally iced himself. He is added to the tally of people killed by Israel. That is beyond unreal. Some political infighting occurs between Palestinians and it is relabeled as an attack by Israel.
Sounds to me like someone is looking for a scapegoat for all their problems. How come the Israelites treat the Bedouins better than anyone else in the Middle East, but they can't get along with the Palestinians? Perhaps it is because the Bedouins don't want to engage in a systematic genocide of every Jew in existence.
If you don't want to fight Israel just don't attack them. If you lose a war with them, live with the consequences of starting it. No do-overs in the real world. If they don't like it in Israel, they can leave. And, yes, the captured teritory is part of Israel.
The Palestinians have already captured the world's attention to their plight. There is no need for any more violence. Put away your hate and work on a solution. Anything else merely proves that they don't want a solution, they just want to kill like common murders.

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by BrewMaster
Did you read what you just wrote Burzhui? You claim the Palestinians are oppressing the Israelis? Haha! And the Native Americans oppressed the United States, right? I think everyone knows that what you wrote is bullsh*t.

Are there any Israelis/Jews willing to take responsibility for what Israel has done? TLG and Burzhui just want to argue and make excuses. Did you not read the story about my 2-year old cousin? Does that not make you stop and think about HUMANITY. Not Israel, not Palestinians, just people. Of course you're upset the Jews are being killed, and rightly so. Put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian. We've lost 17x more people in the last year. I know that doesn't mean much because death is death and it sucks, but to be honest, I think a lot of the pain and anger we feel is the same regardless of Jew or Palestinian. Is it really necessary to spew so much animosity towards me and other Palestinians. I haven't really insulted you, have I? If I have I apologize TLG and Burzhui. I thought we could have a discussion but then TLG goes and writes stuff like this (see the 5th post) (http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=29584)

Jews were there first that's a fact so it's hardly the same as native americans and the US

However i do agree that all of this violence should stop and i did write that, so here i totally agree with you... however i don't appreciate people like welfareloser and pennypinch, who called me ignorant because of my opinions without providing nothing but their own opinions and no facts what so ever. Plus they have not been in israel and can not relate to what i am saying at all.

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by pennypinch
Holy christ...:disa:
Furthermore, I think if you examine coverage of the conflict throughout history, you'll see that the media has been VERY pro-Isreali. You can only perpetuate a half-truth for so long. Removal of Soviet-American bias from the region has widened the coverage to be more balanced.
Bull**** most of the media is pro-palestine, including the new york times, which sucks... only several sources are portraying more or less of a truth

[BrewMaster]

Wow. A lot went down since I checked this morning. Too much to respond to all at once. This whole thread is bringing me down. I don't know where some of these people get their info because they don't site it, so I'm not going to answer. This whole thread has gotten out of hand. This is all useless bantering that is hardly proactive. I'm sorry if any of the Jewish folks (or others) have been offeneded by my posts. That was not my intention. I was offended by many posts, but I've forgiven you guys and I won't mention those posts anymore.

This thread has been a microcosum of the real conflict over in Israel. Most of the time there is no "right" answer or "correct" viewpoint/side. Both sides have f*cked up royally. I'm not trying to lay down any Rodney King sh*t of can't we all just get along, because we're dealing with people's emotions here. Maybe the GAMs can lock up this thread or something. PLease don't flame me with more statements of how wrong I am or who's right or wrong. We're not solving anything, just raising our blood pressures. Blessings to you all. I hope your families stay safe.

-The Brew

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by BrewMaster
This thread has been a microcosm of the real conflict over in Israel.

amen.

[Luxykin007]

I have to agree that the Jews have been oppressed more throughout history. What we see now in that region is what looks like Israel oppressing the Muslims, but I honestly believe it is two nations that just can't find a way to live together. The nation of Israel has been oppressed from it's very conception. In Egypt they were treated as slaves and even had all baby Jewish boys killed upon birth at one point by the Egyptians. Look later in history (a lot later) and you find the Holocaust (Which Adolf Hitler thought was a cleansing of the world because "the Jew is the world's problem) Well, let God decide that, don't exterminate a whole nation because you think it's cool... The Jews have pretty much been crapped on from day one, and now their position is a need to survive. That includes taking all palistnian threats at face value. They are surrounded by Arab nations on all non-water sides of their country, they are at huge risk and that is why they take sucide bombings, etc, with heavy weight and consiquences...

[Luxykin007]

Originally posted by BrewMaster


This thread has been a microcosum of the real conflict over in Israel. Most of the time there is no "right" answer or "correct" viewpoint/side. Both sides have f*cked up royally. I'm not trying to lay down any Rodney King sh*t of can't we all just get along, because we're dealing with people's emotions here. Maybe the GAMs can lock up this thread or something. PLease don't flame me with more statements of how wrong I am or who's right or wrong. We're not solving anything, just raising our blood pressures. Blessings to you all. I hope your families stay safe.

-The Brew

In reading through this I got to this post after I wrote a reply, and ultimatley the Brew is right. We really can't solve anything here, and what IS most important is the safety of those people, and the lives in that region - regardless of who did what. I hope I didn't piss anyone off with my last post, and if I did I am sorry. Trying to respect e/o's beliefs is the way to go. Religious freedom is one of the great things about our nation.

[TheLoneGunman]

Did he say "rock" throwing?

Oh, he must have meant his palestinian brothers were "ROCKET" throwing (this afternoon):

http://i.eimg.com/img/feeds/ap/mideast/israel/palestinians/20010829/jrl124_full.jpg

And this appears to be a RUSSIAN weapon that this terrorist is firing on civilians with:

http://i.eimg.com/img/feeds/ap/mideast/israel/palestinians/20010829/jrl120_full.jpg

[milksheikh]

Ugh, this is an painful thread to read. With a discussion like this taking place between people not directly involved in the conflict, how is there any hope for improvement in the Middle East between those who are directly involved?

But what can we expect? The "nation" of Israel was formed in conflict largely by the votes of countries well removed from the conflict (I use quotes around nation as I personally don't recognize Israel as a nation, but I will try to be objective). The United Nations took a region that was 30% Jewish and 60% Muslim and divided it into two of roughly equal area, one 50% Jewish and 50% Muslim under Jewish control, and the other 99% Muslim under Muslim control. Shortly after, 80% of Muslims had left the Jewish controlled area -- you can argue amongst yourselves if they left "just because" or if they were forced out.

For 30+ years prior to the U.N. resolution there were skirmishes, instigated by both sides. In the 53 years since then, there has been little but conflict. We'll see what happens now.

I think it's a lost cause. I hate having this pessimistic opinion but I can't get myself to think otherwise.

A terrible mistake was made in 1947.

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by BrewMaster
Wow. A lot went down since I checked this morning. Too much to respond to all at once. This whole thread is bringing me down. I don't know where some of these people get their info because they don't site it, so I'm not going to answer. This whole thread has gotten out of hand. This is all useless bantering that is hardly proactive. I'm sorry if any of the Jewish folks (or others) have been offeneded by my posts. That was not my intention. I was offended by many posts, but I've forgiven you guys and I won't mention those posts anymore.

This thread has been a microcosum of the real conflict over in Israel. Most of the time there is no "right" answer or "correct" viewpoint/side. Both sides have f*cked up royally. I'm not trying to lay down any Rodney King sh*t of can't we all just get along, because we're dealing with people's emotions here. Maybe the GAMs can lock up this thread or something. PLease don't flame me with more statements of how wrong I am or who's right or wrong. We're not solving anything, just raising our blood pressures. Blessings to you all. I hope your families stay safe.

-The Brew

Proactive is a very good word... nice ... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Kenas]

http://www.geocities.com/middleeastil/Graphs/42.jpg

YES indeed poor little kids, that is what they teach them at school i guess!!

http://www.geocities.com/middleeastil/Graphs/252.jpg

No aming wrong!! Right there that is a Jew!! That's right!

http://www.geocities.com/middleeastil/Graphs/36.jpg

Yeah just skiped a class that is how we excersise! Yup!! F*ck school!!


Good Palestinians!! They are fighting bad Israel because... ahh ... ahhh ...it is cool to kill Jews eh?! and other Arabs country hate them too. I am wondering why not Arab League is not concerned about occupied Lebanon by Syria???? Because those who are oppose of Syrian government die right away!! And Israel (seems like) is doing a useless thing ... negotiating!! Maybe they should learn from their Syrian neighbours???


____________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________

[BrewMaster]

Kenas you need to chill(and learn to post pics while you're at it).

Luxykin007, I agree that Jews have gotten screwed since the beginning. The holocaust was a horrible tragedy that I wished never happened. But does that justify the way Palestinians are treated? I don't think so. I would think that of any group that has been oppressed, Jews would be the last to cause others to suffer because they know pain and sufering. That's my take on things.

TLG, I don't want to get into a virtual shouting match with you,but there are no rockets or rocket launchers in those pictures that I could see. Also, those gunmen are shooting up at elevated positions. I wouldn't think that Israeli civilians would be on roofs and walls, but probably Israeli soldiers. That's just my guess from looking at those pictures. You're free to see thing differently.

[Edited by BrewMaster on 08-29-2001 at 10:24 PM]

[TheLoneGunman]

Brew - Hmmm... there are four total people. Two are kneeling/crouching on level ground and so unless they were aiming at toes, they would have to aim up. Another one (the one in the Kefia) is not aiming, but rather holding his weapon in a menacing manner. The final guy seems to be sighting with his scope.

How could Israelis be "on the walls"? You said the "palestinians" couldn't build if they didn't serve in the army and these people are clearly not army officers. Once again you passionate argument sounds good but is not authentic.

Sorry, try again.

[BrewMaster]

Palestinian can't buy houss without serving in the military. I said nothing about building. Butsince you brought it up Israel tears down Palestinian homes that are built "without permits" on their own land. The problem is that Palestinians can't get building permits to build even on their own land, so they build anyway. This practice of home demolition has been condemned even by the USA (hard to believe).

As far as the pics go, I don't want to argue, it's a matter of interpretation. To me, especially in the top picture, it looks like they are pointing at someone on a roof. They, especially the guy standing and aiming in the top picture, are definately not shooting at ground level. We can argue about it forever, but neither of us was there when this picture was taken so we can't claim to know for sure. On this topic, we both need to shut our holes.

[BrewMaster]

To TLG, Burzhui, Kenas and any other Jews on this forum that have been hurt (emotionally or physically) or threatened by any Palestinian, myself included, whether here in the US or in Israel, and even are on G|A?, I appologize on their/my behalf. There is no excuse for the injustices that have been done to you throughout history and especially in the current conflict, so I'm not going to put up any excuses. There is nothing that can be said or done to heal your pain or make up for your losses. I am sorry. Please forgive us. I know there is a lot of pain and it may not be easy to forgive at this point. It may take time. I understand. Again, I apologize and ask you to forgive us on behalf of my people.

This is not some sort of stunt to gain sympathy or anything. You may take this however you wish. I doubt that you have had a Palestinian apologize to you ever. I've had Jews apologize to me for certain things and, though they had not done anything to me personally, it made a difference. I forgave. Maybe my apology will have made a difference for you. You may do whatever you wish. But please, don't flame me for this post. If this is not your style or you don't like it, just let it float by as if you never read it. Thanks

-The Brew

[Burzhui]

But dude, you really don't need to appologize, because well... you are not authorized to do that, you are what 22 and lived here for how long? you have nothing to do with what goes on there, so although your appology is nice and all, it's empty.

Not trying to be mean or anything but you must know where i am comming from

[attgig]

and closer (c)gotmilk

(my attempt to just end this thread :D)

[BrewMaster]

I hear you Burzhui. I agree with att gig, time for this one to close....

Thanks for a great discussion.

Moderator(s)?:banghead:

[Kenas]

Originally posted by BrewMaster
To TLG, Burzhui, Kenas and any other Jews on this forum that have been hurt (emotionally or physically) or threatened by any Palestinian, myself included, whether here in the US or in Israel, and even are on G|A?, I appologize on their/my behalf. There is no excuse for the injustices that have been done to you throughout history and especially in the current conflict, so I'm not going to put up any excuses. There is nothing that can be said or done to heal your pain or make up for your losses. I am sorry. Please forgive us.

BrewMaster, we (personally me) were not expecting you to apologize, I have not accuse you of anything yet. But I think it is very nice of you though. I have ìåò a lot of people who apologize to me for being anti-Semite, and condole to me that I am a Jew. But it does not get anywhere, unfortunately. It does make some difference and gives hope, that those others would do the same thing. I don't except leaders of PA to apologize, but I would love to see them do something civil, like do some compromises, stop shootings and arrest those who are guilty for the continuing violence. For instance today new PLO leader threaten Israel and America with new suicide bombers. How come the PA authority, which supposedly is trying to go for peace talks, keeps those people out of jail??????

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Kenas


BrewMaster, we (personally me) were not expecting you to apologize, I have not accuse you of anything yet. But I think it is very nice of you though. I have ìåò a lot of people who apologize to me for being anti-Semite, and condole to me that I am a Jew. But it does not get anywhere, unfortunately. It does make some difference and gives hope, that those others would do the same thing. I don't except leaders of PA to apologize, but I would love to see them do something civil, like do some compromises, stop shootings and arrest those who are guilty for the continuing violence. For instance today new PLO leader threaten Israel and America with new suicide bombers. How come the PA authority, which supposedly is trying to go for peace talks, keeps those people out of jail??????

bad things are being done. the people who are doing the bad things, on both sides, should stop. THAT POINT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED. ramming it down someone's throat as you poop all over his apology reflects so poorly on you it makes me wannahttp://www.ukobservers.net/cwm/otn/puke/barf.gif http://www.contrabandent.com/pez1/otn/puke/barfy.gif http://www.contrabandent.com/pez1/otn/puke/repuke.gif

you haven't accused him of anything YET... i hope that only sounds the way it does because english is not your first language.

[Burzhui]

Well finally, if you saw todays issue of the daily news, you would see that what i was saying 4 or 5 threads ago, on this issue is true.
The arabic countries are giving money to the families of the palestinians who blew themselves up for "the cause".
So pretty much they are getting rewarded for killing other people and themselves, apparantly the reward that is promised in the khoran is not enough (heaven and 50 virgins for killing yourself for ISLAM)

[BrewMaster]

I don't mean any disrespect, and I hope i don't get flamed (again), but I have to agree with welfareloser

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by welfareloser


bad things are being done. the people who are doing the bad things, on both sides, should stop. THAT POINT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED. ramming it down someone's throat as you poop all over his apology reflects so poorly on you it makes me wannahttp://www.ukobservers.net/cwm/otn/puke/barf.gif http://www.contrabandent.com/pez1/otn/puke/barfy.gif http://www.contrabandent.com/pez1/otn/puke/repuke.gif

you haven't accused him of anything YET... i hope that only sounds the way it does because english is not your first language.

He did not poop on his appology he said it gives him hope that at least some palestinians think like that... so don't just read, but read and understand

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by Burzhui
Well finally, if you saw todays issue of the daily news, you would see that what i was saying 4 or 5 threads ago, on this issue is true.
The arabic countries are giving money to the families of the palestinians who blew themselves up for "the cause".
So pretty much they are getting rewarded for killing other people and themselves, apparantly the reward that is promised in the khoran is not enough (heaven and 50 virgins for killing yourself for ISLAM)

It sucks that this is the kind of logic some of my people hold (kill yourself and others and it's a GOOD thing). We all can see it is fu**ed up. I'm the first to agree with you Burzhui. I am not Muslim so I don;t know if that's what it says in the Koran. That's pretty wack if it really says that. Can any Muslims confirm or explain it?

Israel has also done some ugly things, wouldn't you agree Burzhui?

[welfareloser]

the thing that i find most striking in this thread is that none of the pro-israel types will admit that israel is doing anything wrong. there sure as shinola ain't gone be NO dayumn progress until that can happen...

you don't gotta say israel is bad. you don't gotta call jews evil. ain't no reason to say that israel's policies are whack. but please admit that things would be better for all if a few changes were made... it's not asking much!

[Burzhui]

No, no, and no, israel is not doing anything wrong at all... nothing, however.. if the palestinians were not doing anything wrong (i.e. killing israelies) and Israel was just attacking palestine, then and only then will i admit that israel is doing something wrong.

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by BrewMaster


It sucks that this is the kind of logic some of my people hold (kill yourself and others and it's a GOOD thing). We all can see it is fu**ed up. I'm the first to agree with you Burzhui. I am not Muslim so I don;t know if that's what it says in the Koran. That's pretty wack if it really says that. Can any Muslims confirm or explain it?

Israel has also done some ugly things, wouldn't you agree Burzhui?
Didn't you know, that you are praised for dying for ISLAM?
And as i was saying before but no one belived me, for every injured the families recived 500$ and for every one killed it was about 2 grand i think, i have to check on that last number, but it's around 2000

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by Burzhui

Didn't you know, that you are praised for dying for ISLAM?
And as i was saying before but no one belived me, for every injured the families recived 500$ and for every one killed it was about 2 grand i think, i have to check on that last number, but it's around 2000

I believe you, don't get me wrong, but I don't think that people are doing it for the money. No one would let one of their family members die for a couple of G's. They may do it for some religious purposes, but I think the money thing should be left out of this. Also, not that this is an adequate comparison, families of American soldiers get death benefits too. Isn't this the same idea?

Also, Burzhui in the post you put up about admitting Israel has done wrong, your showing your close-mindedness. Can you really say Israel is in the right for killing people? No, two wrongs don't make a right (obviously illustrated by the current situation in Israel). The little kids killed in the streets, the unjust laws, you have to be able to admit that Israel has don somethign wrong, otherwise you're proving welfareloser's point.

Just my 2 cents.

-The Brew

[poiselle]

Originally posted by Burzhui
No, no, and no, israel is not doing anything wrong at all... nothing, however.. if the palestinians were not doing anything wrong (i.e. killing israelies) and Israel was just attacking palestine, then and only then will i admit that israel is doing something wrong.
This is why it will never end. Israel is not going to win. The palestinians are not going to win. They are going to take turns killing each other until they manage to outrace reproduction. You can't beat people who are willing to die for their cause and you can't expect people to accept bus bombings etc. The thread is getting old because nobody is thinking. If I don't agree with you (pick a side) then I am ignorant and don't know what is going on because of the pro-(Arab/Israel) media. I keep waiting for people to just agree to disagree, but instead everone throws out the same arguments.

[BrewMaster]

What a novel idea that was suggested so many pages ago. How about we agree to disagree? That is where I stand.

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by BrewMaster


Also, not that this is an adequate comparison, families of American soldiers get death benefits too. Isn't this the same idea?

-The Brew

Hells no, these people are not soldiers, they are extremists who are using guerilla tactics to kill inocent victims.
The difference between these extremists and soldiers is that soldiers have honor.
palestinian extremists blow themselves up like cowards... that's the difference and no we shouldn't leave the money issue out of it... because after they killthemsleves they are praised in the community for that act...

[Grimm]

For the record, I am not pro-Israel. I am not pro-palestine either. I think they are both f****d up. It's a bad situation where 99% of the people on both sides are caught up in something caused by the other 1%. Not that the 99% are totaly faultless, they fall for the propaganda and let themselves be caught up in a mob mentality. But most of the problems are caused by a small minority on both sides.
The only ones that can stop it are the Palestinians though. The Israelies have to stop when the Palestininas do. They will be held accountable by the UN if they don't (they know that without US and UN backing they are dead meat). If the Israelies stop and the Palestinians don't, no one can be held accountable. No pressure can be applied to the Palestinians. The only ones who could influence them to stop are the ones egging them on, the rest of the Arab world.
The only ones with the power to end this are the Palestinians. Until they choose to do so it will continue.

[BrewMaster]

All hail Burzhui. He will not admit he is wrong because he's never wrong. He's always right. He doesn't need to listen to anyone else or entertain their ideas because they are all stupid and don't know everything like he does. The all knowing, all powerful Burzhui shall not be contested by anyone or they shall be dealt with. Don't waste your time responding to this or any other of his threads because you are wrong. Should you choose to contest the all knowing Burzhui you will be wrong. Any questions? Wrong, that's a bad questions and you're wrong and the all knowing, undisputable Burzhui is right. Wanna try another question? Guess what, you're wrong and the omnipotent Burzhui is right. All of you shall bow to the great Burzhui because he is always right. Please don't present opposing ideas because he will not listen to you because you're wrong. Thanks for playing this wonderful game.

[BrewMaster]

Keep in mind evilcyclops that the current uprising has only been going on for a year and ISrael did nothing for the Palestinians prior to that. I agree that bombings and terrorism should stop. You can't count on the US to apply pressure on Israel though. There's the International Conference on Racism (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/08/29/cnna.racism.cnna/index.html) going on right now but the US didn't send Collin Powell as a rep because they were afraid that the forum might "criticize Israel." Go US. We'll criticize the hell outta China, South Africa, Senegal, Indonesia, Yugoslavia, Germany, and anyone else, but God forbid someone says anything bad about Israel.... just so you know, Israel might actually send a representative. (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/08/30/racism.conference/index.html)
This just in, the US will end reps to the conference with the goal of removing any language that is critical of Israel. (http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/08/29/us.racism.conference/index.html)

The UN wants to go in a send a peace keeping force and referee the situation, as Palestinians are askin for, but Israel won't let them. Israel said they've go it under control. I don't think many of us would agree, but anyway, that's what they sasid.

[Kenas]

Originally posted by BrewMaster
Keep in mind evilcyclops that the current uprising has only been going on for a year and ISrael did nothing for the Palestinians prior to that. I agree that bombings and terrorism should stop. You can't count on the US to apply pressure on Israel though. There's the International Conference on Racism (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/08/29/cnna.racism.cnna/index.html) going on right now but the US didn't send Collin Powell as a rep because they were afraid that the forum might "criticize Israel." Go US. We'll criticize the hell outta China, South Africa, Senegal, Indonesia, Yugoslavia, Germany, and anyone else, but God forbid someone says anything bad about Israel.... just so you know, Israel might actually send a representative. (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/08/30/racism.conference/index.html)
This just in, the US will end reps to the conference with the goal of removing any language that is critical of Israel. (http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/08/29/us.racism.conference/index.html)

The UN wants to go in a send a peace keeping force and referee the situation, as Palestinians are askin for, but Israel won't let them. Israel said they've go it under control. I don't think many of us would agree, but anyway, that's what they sasid.


Also keep in mind evilcyclops that those countries that are talking about Racism are muslim countries, and I have to tell you theer are planty of those!!welfareloser that is right English is not my frist language, but I know for a fact that if lets say Mexico or big political organization in Mexico would blow up something USA. US would not negotiate to the terorrists, neither should Israel. So I see nothing wrong in Israeli politics.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Kenas

So I see nothing wrong in Israeli politics.

not even the fact that different tactics would result in a quicker peace and fewer deaths on both sides?

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by Kenas



Also keep in mind evilcyclops that those countries that are talking about Racism are muslim countries, and I have to tell you theer are planty of those!!welfareloser that is right English is not my frist language, but I know for a fact that if lets say Mexico or big political organization in Mexico would blow up something USA. US would not negotiate to the terorrists, neither should Israel. So I see nothing wrong in Israeli politics.

Well, they sure as **** wouldn't go and blow up a bunch of Mexican nationals, I'll tell you that.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by pennypinch


Well, they sure as **** wouldn't go and blow up a bunch of Mexican nationals, I'll tell you that.

so many of you have been saying "well what do you think the usa would do" to justify the israeli actions...

now consider this...

how do you think the usa would react if they were in the PALESTINIAN position, and israel was behaving as it is?

my guess: israel would be a crater.

point: "what would the usa do" may be interesting to ponder, but justifies NOTHING.

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by BrewMaster
All hail Burzhui. He will not admit he is wrong because he's never wrong. He's always right. He doesn't need to listen to anyone else or entertain their ideas because they are all stupid and don't know everything like he does. The all knowing, all powerful Burzhui shall not be contested by anyone or they shall be dealt with. Don't waste your time responding to this or any other of his threads because you are wrong. Should you choose to contest the all knowing Burzhui you will be wrong. Any questions? Wrong, that's a bad questions and you're wrong and the all knowing, undisputable Burzhui is right. Wanna try another question? Guess what, you're wrong and the omnipotent Burzhui is right. All of you shall bow to the great Burzhui because he is always right. Please don't present opposing ideas because he will not listen to you because you're wrong. Thanks for playing this wonderful game.

You know what A$$hole, you don't have to read my threads or my replies to other threads... i have started several very controversial threads and many people who have participated in them know that i do listen to other peoples oppinions.... you however obviously don't know that, cause you only started participating a little while ago... whatever i state here are my oppinions supported by facts. ANd i am not talking about just the media, which you are basing all your knowledge on. In the previous thread i had hard core historical evidence that this land belonged to the Jews and that palestinians have no right to be there in the first place, i just didn't want to repeat myself in this thread... furthermore, as soon as you start realizing that you are losing in a discussion you use a gimmick such as an oppology, or a plea to close the thread... in the words of your own people: "This is not right my friend"

Peace

[pennypinch]

Um, anything characterized as "hard core historical evidence" belongs less in a political thread and more in a wrestling ring.

"And making his way to the ring, your in-ter-con-ti-nental champion, Hard Core Historical Evidence!"

[BrewMaster]

The apology was not a gimmick. I'm sorry you saw it that way. I meant it.

I guess that was a harsh way to do it, but the post I made ragging on you not listening to people was just to prove a point, and your response to it proved my point.

To those who are trying to convince TLG, Burzhui, Kenas and otehrs that Israel has done wrong, they are not going to listen to us. They are hard-headed and hard-hearted to that idea, so I think we can give up.

Also, Burzhui, I don't know what your historical evidence is, but in 1948 when Israel was established Palestinians out-numbered Jew almost 15 to 1. Palestinaians still outnumber Jews in Israel. How can you say we have no right to be there? We've made our homes there for so long. My family's land has been in our family for over 400 years (documented) and maybe longer (speculated). How can you say we have no right to be there? Also, I wouldn't have a problem with Israel if they let everyone vote and live where they want. It's the Palestinian areas (much like "homelands" in appartheid South Africa) that are the problem. What reason is there to make NOT make Israel a totally free country? Don't tell me it's the terrorists because the current set up isn't helping keep terrorism in check.



Originally posted by Kenas:
Also keep in mind evilcyclops that those countries that are talking about Racism are muslim countries, and I have to tell you theer are planty of those!!

oh, and just for the record Kenas, if you had read this article (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/08/30/racism.conference/index.html) or any other you would have seen that South Africa, Cuba, Poland, Algeria, Venezuela, Rwanda, Portugal and many other non-Muslim countries are participating in the International Conference on Racism.

[TheLoneGunman]

One of my ancestors, a man named Abraham, perhaps you have heard of him, BOUGHT land in Israel. He made it very clear when the local land owner wanted to donate it to him that instead he wanted to BUY it because in the future people would claim that he didn't actually own it and this way there would be a formal record.

Since that time, his decendants have maintained control of the land.

The book where the deed is recorded?

It's called the Bible. I believe it is the same book that Muslims revere as well.

Of course, there is physical and archelogical proof to back up this claim.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
One of my ancestors, a man named Abraham, perhaps you have heard of him, BOUGHT land in Israel. He made it very clear when the local land owner wanted to donate it to him that instead he wanted to BUY it because in the future people would claim that he didn't actually own it and this way there would be a formal record.

Since that time, his decendants have maintained control of the land.

The book where the deed is recorded?

It's called the Bible. I believe it is the same book that Muslims revere as well.

Of course, there is physical and archelogical proof to back up this claim.

snarky.

non-snarky:
There is physical, archeological, and biblical evidence that Abraham, my ancestor, bought land in Israel. He made it very clear when the local land owner wanted to donate it to him that instead he wanted to buy it because in the future people would claim that he didn't actually own it and this way there would be a formal record. Since that time, his descendants have maintained control of the land.

TLG. Australian for "gratuitous snark."

[Luxykin007]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
One of my ancestors, a man named Abraham, perhaps you have heard of him, BOUGHT land in Israel. He made it very clear when the local land owner wanted to donate it to him that instead he wanted to BUY it because in the future people would claim that he didn't actually own it and this way there would be a formal record.

Since that time, his decendants have maintained control of the land.

The book where the deed is recorded?

It's called the Bible. I believe it is the same book that Muslims revere as well.

Of course, there is physical and archelogical proof to back up this claim.


Are you saying that Abraham bought the land for the Jews and they have controlled it since, or for the Arabs? Because Abraham was the father of both nations as I am sure you knew...

[milksheikh]

Originally posted by Burzhui
In the previous thread i had hard core historical evidence that this land belonged to the Jews and that palestinians have no right to be there in the first place

Well, perhaps you should ask yourself why you are in New York then. I'm pretty sure that this land didn't originally belong to Jews.

But to use Usenet speak, I think I'm just feeding the trolls here...

[Burzhui]

originally posted by BrewMaster

Also, Burzhui, I don't know what your historical evidence is, but in 1948 when Israel was established Palestinians out-numbered Jew almost 15 to 1.

Well how about we go way back, i mean way back when jews lived there before anyone else, and Philistines came and tried to fight the jews, however the Jews prevailed... so then the romans came and conqured the jews and called the land pallestine (from the word phelestines) just to rub it in? And only then your land was formed and guess what.. Jews and Romans lived there... muslims were not allowed, because well they were muslim and the Romans obviously were not.

So you know what pal, that deed for 400 years is nothing.

[Burzhui]

Oh yea and for the love of all that is good, don't belittle me, you have absolutely no right, because i have not belittled you. This shows that you can't participate in an adult conversation.

[TheLoneGunman]

Originally posted by milksheikh
Well, perhaps you should ask yourself why you are in New York then. I'm pretty sure that this land didn't originally belong to Jews.

1. Although not aimed at me, I was born in NY and I am a Jew (as if it wasn't obvious)

2. As to why I am here... Many years ago my grandfather lived in Jerusalem (Israel's eternal capitol). As a baby, his brother (would that be my great uncle?) was killed in the fighting with the local Arabs (yes, they didn't mind killing children and babies even back then, but they just hadn't decided to call themselves "palestinians", that happened in the '50s when Nassar suggested that it would be a good political move). Soon after, the British expelled my grandfather (who was still a child) as they were trying to cleanse the area of Jews (similar to the plans of a certain German ruler at the same time)

3. The land did not originally belong to Abraham. This is just like the fact that your house or your car didn't originally belong to you. However, you acquired them and they are now yours. If BrewMaster decided to squat in your house, I am sure you would use force to expell him as well. If he threw rocks at you, I am sure you would use force, up to and including deadly force as that is your right under US, International, and Common Law.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Burzhui
Oh yea and for the love of all that is good, don't belittle me, you have absolutely no right, because i have not belittled you. This shows that you can't participate in an adult conversation.

hmmmm...

all of those f**ked up countries

First and foremost Brewmaster, F*uck you for putting that palestinian flag there

You know what A$$hole, you don't have to read my threads

you use a gimmick such as an oppology (so was your apology just a gimmick to get away with the "feck you and your flag comment?)

more hypocrisy.... you're gettin good at it....

[Burzhui]

And yet still i did not belittle him did i?

I am not saying oh people he is just trying so hard but he is so wrong so don't read his stuff, i never said that everyone is entitled to their own oppinion am i correct or welfareloser will have something to say about that too?

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by welfareloser


you use a gimmick such as an oppology (so was your apology just a gimmick to get away with the "feck you and your flag comment?)



Oh no i appologized for a reason,, i still can't stand that flag, but i just said that it was wrong of me to say that he should take it off... that was all i appologized for.

[Speedfreak]

http://i.eimg.com/img/feeds/ap/mideast/israel/palestinians/20010829/jrl120_full.jpg

That guy looks like SuperGreg. I knew there was something wrong with him.
http://www.supergreg.com

[Luxykin007]

LOL, speedfreak cracks me up, supergreg ?!?!

Nice

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Burzhui


Oh no i appologized for a reason,, i still can't stand that flag, but i just said that it was wrong of me to say that he should take it off... that was all i appologized for.

lord have mercy.

a$$hole is belittling. feck your flag is belittling. you belittled his apology by calling it a mere gimmick.

belittle:be·lit·tle (b-ltl)
tr.v. be·lit·tled, be·lit·tling, be·lit·tles
To represent or speak of as contemptibly small or unimportant; disparage: a person who belittled our efforts to do the job right.
To cause to seem less than another or little: The size of the office tower belittles the surrounding buildings. See Synonyms at decry

the pattern i see here is that israel does nothing wrong, burzhui does nothing wrong, everything is RIGHT in your little world no matter how much evidence bites you in the butt.

you belittled! you disparaged! please just admit that much! it's easy! i swear! i'm not even saying there's anything wrong with belittling someone, just that it is inane for you to deny that you did it!!!!!!

[Kenas]

"Egypt has said Arab states will stop short of their original intention to try to pass a controversial resolution equating Zionism with racism" -BBC

I can't believe a country with 94% Muslim population is saying that Zionism is the same as racism, I should then request a hearing about Egypt being a racist country. And the rest of Islamic world from Palestine to Pakistan is racist. And then include China, Russia, and half Africa!

WHO WANTS TO SIGN MY PETITION????

[BrewMaster]

I feel bad that I checked this thread tonight. Now I'm all bummed out. I know you mean well welfareloser but I think you can give Burzhui a rest. If he doesn't want to admit stuff, leave him alone.

Hey Burzhui no hard feelings? I'm sorry that you felt like I was belittling your comments or your people. I got out of hand. Forgive me.

Can I make one request of the rest of this thread? You obviously don't have to follow it but I think it's worth a try. How about we each try, instead of insulting the other side, make a suggestions about what our OWN side could change to help the current situation in Israel that is getting both of our peoples killed? MAybe we can even share this idea with our family and friends and have PROACTIVE discussions. I know for me when my family talks about the situation there, we just bi*ch about it. It would be nice to do something helpful even though all of us are here in the US.

I'll go first. I think Palestinians could stop bashing the Holocaust and stop calling it the "Jewish excuse" (I know many people who do it, I've done it myself I'm sorry to say) and try to share in the pain of our semite brothers and sisters, the Jews. It was a tragedy that should never be forgotten otherwise, as they say, we're doomed to repeat it. I think this would build unexpected relationships that could lead to peaceful dialogue. Next?

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by welfareloser


the pattern i see here is that israel does nothing wrong, burzhui does nothing wrong, everything is RIGHT in your little world no matter how much evidence bites you in the butt.

you belittled! you disparaged! please just admit that much! it's easy! i swear! i'm not even saying there's anything wrong with belittling someone, just that it is inane for you to deny that you did it!!!!!!

First of all there is something wrong with belittling someone, and i guess by saying f*ck you and A$$hole you do belittle someone, and i will admit that... Isral is not doing anything wrong, and there are no "facts" as you say that were presented to convince me that they are doing anything wrong, palestine is doing many, many, many, things wrong and Israel is just responding

http://burzhui.tripod.com/temp/1.jpg
nice

wow this is just great isn't it, poor old palestinaians with mortars
http://burzhui.tripod.com/temp/lamdf43466.jpg

explosives
http://burzhui.tripod.com/temp/bomb.jpg

[topane]

Originally posted by Burzhui
<SNIP>Isral is not doing anything wrong, and there are no "facts" as you say that were presented to convince me that they are doing anything wrong, <SNIP>I like the use of "facts" in quotes, it makes me think that any evidence presented that is contrary to your beliefs would be false.
There's a lot of hurt and pent-up anger here, kids. Take the high road. No one's winning over there, and I don't think there will ever be total peace in that part of the world. I don't know that you can ever have peace when no one wants to admit that the other guy's point of view is valid.

[attgig]

Originally posted by topane
I don't know that you can ever have peace when no one wants to admit that the other guy's point of view is valid.

Originally posted by BrewMaster
This thread has been a microcosum of the real conflict over in Israel.

[Burzhui]

damn it, stupid tripod, i swear the pics were there and i saw them and now it doesn't work anymore... grrr anyone know of a good pic hosting service that is free

[BrewMaster]

If you got them off of one of the news sites (cnn, msnbc, etc) just link them directly from their page.

[Burzhui]

Damn it doesn't work it links to the html doc cause the pic is embeded in the java script, i will try to do something at home,

In any case, thanks Brew

[BrewMaster]

You may already be doing this Burzhui, but what I do is I right click on the picture and open it in a new window if it's in a java applet or one those screwy little windows. Then I right click on the picture in the new window and click "properties." This gives me the url for the pic. If that doesn't work just take the address from the top of the new window and use that as the url. If all else fails, I guess just link to the page where the java script comes up. Good luck.

-The Brew

[BrewMaster]

Hey Burzhui, did you notice that in the past few posts when we've been trying to get your pics posted that we've been pretty civil to each other and down right gentlemanly. Thanks. It was a welcome bit of fresh air from the previous maddness. I appreciate it. Let's try to keep it up.

-The Brew

[Burzhui]

krikey, they removed the pics from the slide show... oh well if anyone wants to see them here are the links
http://burzhui.tripod.com/temp/1.jpg
nice

wow this is just great isn't it, poor old palestinaians with mortars
http://burzhui.tripod.com/temp/lamdf43466.jpg

explosives
http://burzhui.tripod.com/temp/bomb.jpg

[BrewMaster]

Hate to tell you Burzhui but htose links don't show any image.

-The Brew

[hyder]

Just a fact for Burzhui:
You claimed that Quran guarantees heaven and 50 virgins to suicide bombers; so I just wanted to clarify that.
Quran/Mohammed preached that a person that commits suicide goes straight to hell. So, please verify the things you read before you quote them.


Just some facts:
-Jihad is not just "physical fighting" as portrayed in the media... It is very broad term and I can't define it here. search on some search engine (google.com) to get more info on it.
-Jews were best treated in history under an Islamic Empire.... check out this site... http://users.erols.com/gmqm/toleran1.html
these Umayyads were your "animalistic" arabs too...
- Arabs too are descendants of Abraham... so, don't they also have a claim to that land?

...

[Burzhui]

No no no, dude not suicide, religious suicide... that is a little different from plin suicide.

And as for Brew's comment, ooops stupid trypod doesn't allow access to seperate directories... which is good but sucks for my purposes

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by Burzhui
so then the romans came and conqured the jews and called the land pallestine (from the word phelestines) just to rub it in? And only then your land was formed and guess what.. Jews and Romans lived there... muslims were not allowed, because well they were muslim and the Romans obviously were not.


I've got news (actually history) for you Burzhui, do you know the reason Muslims were "not allowed" to live there? Well the Romans took over some time before 30BC and their reign ended sometime around 100AD (these dates could be slightly off, but you'll get the point). ISLAM DIDN'T BEGIN UNTIL ABOUT 400AD. THEY COULDN'T LIVE THERE BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T EXIST. There was no such thing as Islam when the Romans ruled Palestine. There were arabs there though. SO either you don't know your history or you are lumping all arabs into Muslims which is horribly untrue, or both.

-The Brew

[hyder]

nowhere in Quran or Hadith have I ever heard about this "religious suicide"!
Please quote any Hadith or anything from Quran that implies that....

Harming your own body is considered a sin in Islam, since the body is considered property of God.

The thing you are probably confusing this with is Jihad... as I said, that is a broad term and does not constitute just physical fighting with others. btw, Jihad does not constitute Suicide.

There is even a Hadith relating a story in which a Sahabi (a companion of the prophet) commits suicide as he is badly injured in a battle and can't bear the pain. The prophet watches that and tells others that he would be sent to hellfire. (I am paraphrasing it here)

Here are my sources:


to be roasted in a fire,

Do not kill yourselves, for Allah is compassionate towards you. Whoever does so, in transgression and wrongfully, We shall roast in a fire, and that is an easy matter for Allah. (an-Nisaa 4:29-30)

forbidden Paradise,

Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak:
The Prophet said, "Whoever intentionally swears falsely by a religion other than Islam, then he is what he has said, (e.g. if he says, 'If such thing is not true then I am a Jew,' he is really a Jew). And whoever commits suicide with piece of iron will be punished with the same piece of iron in the Hell Fire." Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, "A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him." (Sahih Bukhari 2.445)

will be punished in hell by whatever used for suicide,
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire." (Sahih Bukhari 2.446, 2.445)

Verse 5:32 "...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people..."

Verse 8:61 "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."

"Let there be no compulsion (forcing others) in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

Verse 13:22 "Those who patiently persevere, seeking the countenance of their Lord; establish regular prayers; spend out of (the gifts) We have bestowed for their sustenance, secretly and openly; and turn off evil with good: for such there is the final attainment of the (Eternal) Home."

I think the above would be enough... please refrain from accusing religion here, based on false data.
Would you like it if I said Jewish religion allows the same and rewards it? (without bcking it up with information in Torah etc.)

here are a few more sites to look over for more information:
http://www.submission.org/terrorism.html -- about terrorism and Jihad
http://thetruereligion.org/m12.htm

Note: Islam does allow to fight back when you are being oppressed:
[22:39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them.
which is what you see in these oppressed countries.

-H

[BrewMaster]

hyder thanks for educating us. thanks you for bringing EVIDENCE which is what this thread is sorely lacking. Anyway, what are the suicide bombers thinking then? How do they justify what they're doing? What do you think about those groups? Since you're the only one here who REALLY KNOWS anything about Islam, I'm intersted in what you have to say.

-The Brew

[milksheikh]

Irrespective of whether terrorism is good or bad (personally, I think it is bad, but have difficulty seeing it as that different from "allowable" military action), I have to comment that I find it interesting when suicide bombers are described as "cowardly", whereas pilots firing missiles into buildings from thousands of feet away are not. Perhaps I don't understand what cowardly actually means...

[BrewMaster]

I agree with you milksheikh and I think that's a good point. I don't think terrorism is cool, but I also think military action is whack too. No one really wins when either is used.

[Kenas]

Originally posted by BrewMaster


I've got news (actually history) for you Burzhui, do you know the reason Muslims were "not allowed" to live there? Well the Romans took over some time before 30BC and their reign ended sometime around 100AD (these dates could be slightly off, but you'll get the point). ISLAM DIDN'T BEGIN UNTIL ABOUT 400AD. THEY COULDN'T LIVE THERE BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T EXIST. There was no such thing as Islam when the Romans ruled Palestine. There were arabs there though. SO either you don't know your history or you are lumping all arabs into Muslims which is horribly untrue, or both.

-The Brew


I have not visited this site for a few days now, but it seems a bit calmer. That is good. I wish current situation in Mid-East would be just a forum "fight".
I have to reply to many of the things that have been said in this forum, and I will try not to forget anything.
Since we are discussing history here (and I like it better) I will share some of the historic facts as well. I just want to say that as some one here already realised English is not my first language. And the historic facts that I have I will try to translate with my best knowledge.
First of all, BrewMaster Islam as a religion could not begin before Muhammad was born, Muhammad received(or wrote) the Koran in the beginning of the 7th century. Muhammad was born aprox. in 570.
Unfortunately, i have never seen a complete translation of Koran in either English or my native language. That is why I can't be exact, but I have read some fragments that were translated by historians. Some of those facts as the matter of fact were brought to us by hyder. But the site where he got the quotes, is not whole Koran.
There are definitely a lot of peace talk and love in Koran, just like it is in a Torah, or Bible, as the matter of fact there are a lot of things are taken from the Torah and the new testament. However there is also what Burzhui is referring to, about suicide. From what I've read, for a Muslim to get to a paradise, he needs to destroy enemies of religion. Enemy means whoever is not Muslim. To destroy the enemy he has to either kill him, make him a slave and convert, or convert the non-Muslim. Kazavat- big war, and Jihad- local war is a great way to destroy the enemies. Now what happens to a "warrior". In Koran it says that the way to paradise is like a bridge, which is sharp like a sword. For you to get to the paradise you have to put as many enemy souls(see above) on that bridge on it as it possibly can, so they to paradise would be smoother. If the warrior dies young in the for the belief(!) and kills an enemy the prophet Muhammad walks the martyr to the paradise right away. What hyder wrote before, is true! only if you are Muslim. The idea is don’t kill your brother.
I am sure are more such fact that I can't now remember (2:00 a.m.) but I will post them as they come, if I am not too lazy to type.

Another things, about Palestine:
The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what are now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century A.D., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from this Latin name. Yehoshua Porath, The Emergence of the Palestinian-Arab National Movement, 1918-1929
Arabs until 8th century were just Bedouin tribes, with many different religion. Until Muhammad’s idea of uniting all the Arabs together. Word Arab comes from Arabian peninsula, Europeans were first to call that Bedouins. But Jews were also from Arabian peninsula, except Jews were from north and Arabs from south. After all, people were there before the religion.

And now for BrewMaster proposal, I think that Israel should stop any use of weapons, as soon as Palestinians stop theirs, leave the Palestine and go back to Peace talks.
What Palestinians should have done, is to take what Barak was giving, 98% of what they wanted. It would be much easier now and we would not have to go back to history :)

[Burzhui]

Beautifly Put Kenas, couldn't have said it better myself

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by Burzhui
so then the romans came and conqured the jews and called the land pallestine (from the word phelestines) just to rub it in? And only then your land was formed and guess what.. Jews and Romans lived there... muslims were not allowed, because well they were muslim and the Romans obviously were not.




I've got news (actually history) for you Burzhui, do you know the reason Muslims were "not allowed" to live there? Well the Romans took over some time before 30BC and their reign ended sometime around 100AD (these dates could be slightly off, but you'll get the point). ISLAM DIDN'T BEGIN UNTIL ABOUT 400AD. THEY COULDN'T LIVE THERE BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T EXIST. There was no such thing as Islam when the Romans ruled Palestine. There were arabs there though. SO either you don't know your history or you are lumping all arabs into Muslims which is horribly untrue, or both.

-The Brew


Originally posted by Kenas

First of all, BrewMaster Islam as a religion could not begin before Muhammad was born, Muhammad received(or wrote) the Koran in the beginning of the 7th century. Muhammad was born aprox. in 570.


Whatever the date was Kenas, you proved my point that Burzhui was just talking out of his a$$. I'll say it again, the reason only Jews and Romans lived there and "Muslims were not allowed" was because Islam didn't exist yet. Not much of an argument.

[TheLoneGunman]

Please don't take this wrong, but I think the first post in this thread now has become very ironic

[BrewMaster]

Agreed.

[Anck Su Namun]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
It is obvious that Bush has resumed doing coke.

He keeps telling the Israelis to 'show restraint' when innocent people keep getting killed by terrorists.

Whenever someone throws a rock at an American cop, they are promptly executed right there.

Whenever an Iraqi dares to challenge the americans, they are subject to massive bombings.

Why is it that Jews aren't entitled to the same reaction?

I agree completely, except for the coke part haha. I think he is just
a wimp sometimes. I hope he doesn't wimp out now once he finds out who is responsible...

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
Please don't take this wrong, but I think the first post in this thread now has become very ironic

Unfortunately it is so :(