View Full Version : For Those Calling For War. . .
09-13-2001, 09:33 AM
I'd just like to express a feeling I have as a 26 year old and what WAR would mean to me and possibly others in my generation.
I am ready to go and fight for our country and the freedom that we were given 200+ years ago. I am willing to die for that freedom if it means generations in the future can enjoy a lifestyle that I have come to know and enjoy. I don't feel that many in my generation share this feeling and if there are, I would love to hear their thoughts. I have seen movies, read books and know that war is a horrific experience that scars both mentally and physically. No war, despite how lopsided a victory, is without "casualties." Desert Storm saw few American casualties, but many men and women are suffering from unexplained diseases from chemicals and weapons, both foreign and domestic. Vietnam vets have had well documented problems, both mentally and physically as well as those from Korea. You can go down the list of military involvements the US has been in and from each of these soldiers suffer from some form of scarring.
I hear people and read comments from people, such as LPMiller, Jim and my co-workers saying that we need action and that things need to be done. While they don't all say we need war that is what I hear. I have co-workers that are saying we need war and that we need to attack now. But, these same co-workers are very similar to LPMiller and Jim in that they are parents, in their middle 30s (assuming that LPMiller and Jim are that age) and they have children. They share several common bonds, they themselves are too old for the military and have children and therefore would not be pulled in by Selective Service. They also have children that are too young for the military and therefore are not threatened by them being pulled into Selective Service.
Yet, they are the ones calling the loudest for action and WAR! A war that they will watch from the comforts of their homes and on their TVs as a battle rages thousands of miles away, in a harsh land that they are protected from. I hear idol threats about seeking revenge on the people who did this. Idol talk, that's all it is. How many of you could hold a gun to another person's head and pull the trigger? This isn't Quake, this isn't paintball, this is life. Many men talk tough, but when faced with a true danger, I would suspect that nary 10% could act on their words. DON'T ASK OTHERS TO ACT FOR YOU! When you call for war and action, think of whom you may be sending to fight your battle. Is your brother or sister going to go? Is your best friend going to go? Because if you are over 30, YOU ARE NOT! They will ask people like me and men and women of my generation to do that for them. I WILL answer that call and I WILL go to defend this country, but as you think of the people that died in the tragedy, as you react and call for action, remember that you are also sending more Americans to their possible deaths.
I would like to end by saying that I am not in a position where I believe that this act should go unpunished, but, "Revenge is a dish best served cold." Actions based upon emotions rarely have the intended effect. We need to act on prevention and caution in the US, to ward off future threats. People, and there are many, who believe that these terrorist acts cannot happen again, do not have their eyes open. Those who do not learn from History are doomed to repeat it. We need to protect ourselves, then when confidence is high and we have our Proven suspect, we strike, we strike hard and with a fueled vengeance!
God Bless America, The Land that I Love!!
09-13-2001, 09:38 AM
In Israel, men as old as 50 or more serve in the military.
Also, women fight alongside men.
Why can't older people who want to fight join?
There are plenty of roles where age does not matter (ex. all the support positions -- including those in combat areas)
For example, wouldn't you prefer a computer tech with 20 years experience rather than some 18 year old kid?
09-13-2001, 09:41 AM
This is why we have a professional army.
09-13-2001, 09:45 AM
That is a great point! But, as a matter of logistics, support positions have a much larger life expectancy than a front line grunt. And of course 30+ year olds could go into this war, but with more at stake with families, I doubt many would. I am just hoping people get off the emotional band wagon that is rolling right now and think clearly. A quick snap judgement is not needed here. Such as the recent retaliations against Muslims and Islamic people living here in the States, that is wrong and makes us no better than those we hate.
09-13-2001, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Jacob Marley
But, as a matter of logistics, support positions have a much larger life expectancy than a front line grunt.
Why the heck would we send in ground troops against a force that is willing to die for their cause?
In the gulf we pounded them into submission from the air and only sent in troops once they were defenseless.
We didn't even send in low flying planes until we knocked out most of their air support.
In 1967, when Israel was defending itself from Egypt, the first thing they did was wipe out the entire Egyptian air force and other major positions. Only then did they send in ground troops.
09-13-2001, 09:54 AM
And just to help the cause here, most of the military is over the age of 25.
There will be a lot of 30+ soliders out there. A lot with families.
09-13-2001, 09:58 AM
09-13-2001, 09:58 AM
I don't think people understand the nature of terrorism. YOu can;t erradicate it. Sure, they might have a good idea who did this and they may hit them with some bombs, but big freakin' deal. Terrorism is just grass-roots people fighting or causing havoc for whatever reason. How can you call it a war when there's not a real enemy but people's beliefs that they are willing to fight for. We have service men and women who get paid and are brave, but also do what they're told. Terrorists run on passion and principle. Armies don't have that fuel. People can call for action but hwo the hell are we going to attack? Who do we hold responsible? Osama bin Laden?
I find it funny that we are going to go old west style and run out for a lynching on a hunch. People are calling for immediate action. Well, who do we point the guns at, huh? The entire middle east? So what if we have hard evidence (which we don't) that bin Laden did it and we go and kill him and half of Afganistan? Then what do we do? Pat ourselves on the back for our act of bravery? Another terrorist group will emerge. Ask TLG and Burzhui, how many terorist groups have attacked Israel in the course of its 50 year history. Countless because even if you erradicate one entire group, another group is just waiting to take its place.
So to those calling for immediate action, or any action, think about what you want to get into. It will be a never ending war with a shadow. We shoot, and maybe even hit, but it moves and comes from the other side. It may be a middle eastern group, it may be a radical America group like Tim McVeigh, or it may be some other group. You can't put down all of the enemies of the USA. We have way too many. So if we act now, where do we stop? Are we going to beat up all of the kids who don't like us or don't want to play our game by our rules.
There's an overwhelming arrogance in the USA that we're always right. This act of terrorism is not right, don't get me wrong, but we don't know how to deal with it. It is new to us. Why not sit back a bit and learn from others? I think people who've never spent time in another country need to do so. Go visit another country and talk to people from that country. Get an international perspective. America is the butt of many jokes around the world for our arrogance. And our arrogance is exactly why we got hit on Tuesday. The US never gave a sh*t about the middle east, nor did the British. They want/wanted only one thing: OIL. That is why we need Israel. When the oil runs out, the USA's loving realtionship with Israel will too. The middle east hates the West because they've been screwed for 100 years by westerners only wanting OIL. Our arrogance is why we got hit. We thought we could do whatever we want without repraoch. Well, reproach has come and it's time for us to learn, not go out and attack again. We need a time out like any other misbehaving 6 year old. MAybe in our timeout we can mourn and learn to love for real. I sure hope so.
09-13-2001, 10:00 AM
i do understand your point. someone who is less likely to be called to serve may be more likely to want a war. that is probably true.
but you can't blast any given individual for their opinion of whether or not we should go to war over this. that's like a woman telling a man that he isn't allowed to be against abortion. yes, a man's perspective will be different, but that doesn't strip him of his right to an opinion, whatever that opinion may be.
09-13-2001, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by BrewMaster
lots o stuff...
yes, the us has caused problems elsewhere. and a lot of us do need to get a better perspective on the rest of the world... but that is not THE REASON why 20,000 are dead. THE REASON for that is a handful of evil people with sick ideas of right and wrong.
now, as to your other point, that we should do nothing because the enemy is too ubiquitous... i think we need to do something. of course we are not going to succeed in wiping all terrorism from the face of the earth, but that is no reason not to try. we can stop a lot of it. immediate dire consequences for these acts may minimize their recurrence. we wipe out people that have committed terrorist acts and are likely to commit more, we beef up security and intelligence... and we make ourselves safer.
The old farts calling for war said they would go themselves.
BrewMaster: spare us the sob story about the middle east.
09-13-2001, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by welfareloser
now, as to your other point, that we should do nothing because the enemy is too ubiquitous... i think we need to do something.
I'm not saying do nothing, I'm saying make a clear and calcualted decision as to what to do. I beleive in Justice and I think the people responsible should be brought to justice. What do we do that? Some congressman are calling for a declaration of war. WHO THE HELL ARE WE FIGHTING? That's my point. We need to calm down and for a bit. Attacking another country is not going to solve anything. Let's be rational.
Say that Osama bin Laden DID do it we do what G-dub (Bush) said we would and go after any harboring countries. We'll go to war with Afganistan and their psycho Taliban government. They've got nukes and they're so crazy they might actually use them.. Then were are we left? On the verge on nuclear war because they took out 20,000 of our people. We have to think clearly and not just go running aroung blazing because we think the US is invincible. I want justice and I am pissed that so many people died. We need to be rational and not think that we are invincible. Tuesday proved how vulnerable we are.
09-13-2001, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by sbp
The old farts calling for war said they would go themselves.
BrewMaster: spare us the sob story about the middle east. Well, you have to admit that we've often sown the seeds of our own discontent...
09-13-2001, 10:24 AM
MAybe in our timeout we can mourn and learn to love for real. I sure hope so.
What does that mean: to love for real?
I give Jacob Marley credit for his beliefs and his bravery. If we would have sat back 60 years ago, we would be screaming: HEIL!! to whatever dictator would be ruling in Washington.
09-13-2001, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by johnnymk
What does that mean: to love for real?
You're right, I should've explained better. I was referring to our relationships with other countries. we claim to be out for the good and protection of Israel but I that's not true. The US wants a stronghold in the middle east to ensure we can get oil from the Arab countries and that stronghold is ISrael. They don't give a crap about Israeli citizens who fear for their lives everyday. They don't give a crap about Arab countries.
What I also meant by "love for real" is for us individually and personally. This gets a little more touchy-feely. People were calling loved ones and hugging each other and going to church a whole heck of a lot more in the past few days. I think that can have areal impact on everyone. I know people, as ridiculous as it sounds, who put aside family squabbles because this tragedy has brought them together. They are seeing that life is fragile and can change very easily. People learning to love each other more deeply. Take this as you will. These are just my thoughts.
Originally posted by pennypinch
Well, you have to admit that we've often sown the seeds of our own discontent... yes we have
09-13-2001, 10:45 AM
First: I served when I was 18 to 23 in the US Navy. I volunteered because I believe it is necessary fo each and every citizen to take personal responsability for the safety of this nation. I didn't talk about fighting for this country, I did it. If Desert Storm had been a down and dirty fight in the trenches I would have still been there. It was my responsability to be there. Luckily, for me Desert Storm was a walk in the park, compared to previous wars. But I did my duty as a US citizen. I don't feel guilty to ask the people who come after me to fight for this country because I have, and will again if necessary. So quit your whining. We fought for you, now it's your turn.
But you can relax, I doubt they will draft anyone.
We obviously can not kill all the people who might be a terrorist now or in the future. We can cut their support. Financial, training, safe harbor, and access to weapons can be reduced, if not eliminated. We can reduce their effectiveness to the point where they can not do any more significant damage. To where they can hijack a jetliner, but not fly it into a building, because they have no flight training. They won't be able to afford airline tickets and large amounts of chemicals for bombs. They won't be able to run and hide anywhere because nations will be afraid to hide them. They won't be able to recruit young people and fill their minds with thoughtless hate, because they won't have a place to isolate them and train them.
I don't want to mindlesly lash out. I am not mad at the Muslims who live in my neighborhood. I know it's a few radical nuts who did this. But I want the people who support them to be punished also. Wether they train them, hide them, finance them, or just encourage them (moral support is support, just like finacial is). I want them. I want them to pay in blood for the harm they caused.
I will not fear them. I will teach them to fear me. I will not succumb to their tricks and misdirect my hate to the wrong people. My neighbors that are Muslim were harmed just as much as I was. I will hold my anger untill it can be used to exact just vengance upon my enemies.
09-13-2001, 11:04 AM
I am sorry you saw my post as whinning. That was not my intent. I hoped only to put a face with those being asked to fight a possible war. You are right, the draft is not something that is likely, but it could happen. I will reaffirm that I would go, like you stated, without hesitation. My father served, my grandfather servered, and I will serve. I have nothing but respect and reverance for Veterans of wars or of peace time, that is why I pay Social Security and don't question it. This is a free country and everyone is allowed their opinion, but nothing frustrates me more than hearing someone calling for action that will never carry it out themselves. That, was what I wanted to say.
09-13-2001, 11:19 AM
Jacob, I appologize for calling you a whiner. It is not true and it was unfair for me to do so. I'm sure you understand that I am feeling very confrontational right now.
I just know that if we do not respond in a manner that show the world that acts of terror against the US do not pay, we will be victems again and again.
Our response needs to be well targeted and overwhelming. It has to be proportional to the damage caused. In other words, it needs to be the biggest retaliation ever. Wether it is a war or police raids around the world to arrest and imprison terorists, it needs to set a precident.
I am nost asking anyone to do anything that I wouldn't have done myself. If I had stayed in the military and was sitting on a ship right now, my feelings would be the same.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.12 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.