How to prevent skyjackings

[Markel]

At the dinner table last night we had some conversation on how to improve aiport security, etc. My idea was to have a videotape at the boarding door that would at least photograph each person and record the information from their boarding pass (at least at locations where they scan the boarding pass). Then this morning I saw a very interesting idea on zdnet (http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2812283,00.html) that really sounds like it has potential. If somethine like this could be hashed out and implemented in the right way, we could all return to feeling more relaxed about boarding an airplane again.

[chrissy]

There was a pilot on a local news broadcast that said first thing to do is make a better door. Apparently, the door to the cockpit is rather easy to break down. (duh)

In addition to that, he would like to see a "panic button" for the stewards in the back to let them know something is going on. He also suggested with these he would like to see added the ability to gas the back of the plane. He explained the pilots could put on the oxygen masks and hit a switch (stewards prob could too -- oxygen masks) and the gas would put ppl to sleep.

He also said with advance warning, pilots can manuver the plane to increase G-force so anyone standing would be forced to the ground.

[pennypinch]

First things first: that door has to be improved. I think we've all seen that door and thought, "Jeez, it wouldn't take too hard of a kick to bust that thing wide open."

I was always under the impression they had a gun in a lockbox up in the cockpit. I guess I don't see the problem (aside from a missed shot and the subsequent explosive decompression). The sleeping gas thing sounds a little hokily James Bond-ish...not to mention unsafe. There's a reason we have aneastologists when administering general aneasthetic (wow, butchered the spelling of both those!).

I guess I really don't see the problem with US air marshalls on every plane. Seems to me the best recourse. So my plane fare will go up a little; when I buy a ticket, I am purchasing passage that I assume to be safe and efficient. Safety should be included in the price of the flight.

[chrissy]

Yeah, I guess I forgot to put that huh. He did say that the gas would be great in a perfect environment, but dangerous because of health issues ppl might have and little ones.

[Cheesypuff]

Hey Penny....did you get the gun in the lockbox idea from "Con Air?" Because thats where they had one. Sorry totally off the subject. I was just curious.

[pennypinch]

Actually, the thing I was thinking about was that system they were testing at the Superbowl, which took pictures of crowds of people and actually matched it to a computer database of criminal photos.

Does anyone know how successful that system was?

[Markel]

One thing I like about the idea from ZDNet is that it overrules almost any idea that the terrorists might have. If there is a sky marshall aboard, maybe they think they can still take him/her out. If the cockpit door is stronger (which I also think would be a good idea) they still might be able to force the pilots to cooperate by means of a hostage situation. But once "the button" is engaged, there's nothing more they can do except go along for the ride (or try to escape from the plane :eek: ).

[Jihforce]

Or blow it up. I think the panick button idea is ok. I can actually see it being beneficial.
I strictly think that no form or weapon should be used in a plane because if the terrorist manage to get their hands on it, that's yet another advantage they have over the crew members.

[jase71]

Hmmm...

How about a version of remote control for airliners? One where the tower could assume control over the plane, and fly it in from their position on the ground, overriding anything the pilot or terrorist on board could do. They already have systems like this that they use when test-crashing airliners.

That would allow a safety factor if the pilot and copilot is incapacitated. It would allow the plane to be guided to a place where an armed response could be prepared in advance. And it could be used when the plane leaves it's flight path, and will not communicate with the ground.

The only weakness would be that the system might be hackable... that's the issue that would have to be dealt with.

[froggystyle]

the reason pilots dont have guns in the cockpit is because whenever you have a gun that gun could be taken away....in other words terrorists may be able to enter the plane unarmed and get ahold of that gun by force. I think they should have closed circuit cameras on board the planes that transmit constant video images of everything happening on board the plane to an outside location... no tape recorders im talking video cameras sending images not taping them. I also thing that pasports should be scanned into a database by barcode or something that would make the pasport info and photo show up ont he screen...that way stolen passports with altered pictures could be easily discernable. and there would be names to match the faces of every person on board

[hapoo]

They should just completely separate the cockpit from the rest of the plane... two separate doors. that way no one can get in or out.

[Brendan]

How about eliminating the carry-on? I mean, when you think about it, it's really a luxury and not a necessity.

And it's sure a lot harder to conceal a weapon on your person than in a small duffle bag.

[TheLoneGunman]

El Al (Israeli Air Lines) does not get hijacked even though they are the number one target of terrorists.

The reasons:

1. They FOLLOW the security procedures they have in place. Other airlines have the regulations but are lax in enforcing them. Some of these hijackers were known and were traveling under their own names. They also raised a high security profile (according to the FBI) but they were too lazy to stop them.

2. Trained crews - All El Al aircrew are MILITARY officers (by virtue of a universal draft). As a result, all are fully weapon and battle trained and also used to flying under adverse conditions.

3. Armed marshalls - Although not conspicuous, you can be assured that there is always at least one armed guard on every El Al flight. These people are Special Forces and are trained for this job. This is also why you don't have fights on the plane (although, the stewardesses and the ultra-Orthodox sometimes mix it up a bit, but that's just the fun of the flying on El Al)

4. Safety is above all else - Your right to privacy is not a concern if they want to search your bag. Further, if you fit a certain "profile" (such as BrewMaster described his family fitting) they have no problem pulling you out of line and doing a detailed background check. You don't get a second in an attack and so they prevent them from the begining. If this bothers you, fly another airline and take your chances.

[Speedfreak]

I like the idea on ZDnet, but they should have it land near the closet jail/prison. :D

[Grimm]

Here's how I think we can prevent skyjackings.

1) Kill the skyjackers and anyone else involved.
2) Bomb their homes.
3) Kill their parents.
4) Kill their siblings.
5) Kill their children.
6) Kill their friends.
7) Bomb their capitol.
8) Bomb anyone who complains about it.
9) Internationaly televise the results.

Next group will be more reluctant to participate.

Give the pilots a gun with hard rubber bullets.
Have a gass that incapacitetes the passengers, it doesn't have to make them unconcious. It can make them tired or puke or just sleepy.
The door to the cabin should be locked for the whole flight. It should be armored and inpenitrable by a .50 cal round.

The airport should have a system that looks for known terrorists. Like the one at the superbowl.
Pay the guards at the airport a living wage. Give bonuses for any exceptional acts. Like spotting a supicious character or fake ID.
Pass people through machines that scan their whole body for weapons. If you are not comfortable with your body, stay home and hide under your couch. Privacy is for the home. The whole puritain thing was cute, but it's time for it to go away when it costs lives.

[TheLoneGunman]

Originally posted by jase71
The only weakness would be that the system might be hackable... that's the issue that would have to be dealt with.

This has been discussed in aviation circles for over 20 years.

The problem is that EVERY system is hackable.

Also, this makes it WORSE.

Now someone can hack the system remotely and take over 100 planes at once instead of needing 3-6 suicide pilots per plane.

[hapoo]

Originally posted by evilcyclops
Here's how I think we can prevent skyjackings.

1) Kill the skyjackers and anyone else involved.
2) Bomb their homes.
3) Kill their parents.
4) Kill their siblings.
5) Kill their children.
6) Kill their friends.
7) Bomb their capitol.
8) Bomb anyone who complains about it.
9) Internationaly televise the results.



I think thats what the people claim is the reason why they are commiting these crimes in the first place.

[The Happy Squirrel]

Originally posted by evilcyclops
Here's how I think we can prevent skyjackings.

1) Kill the skyjackers and anyone else involved.
2) Bomb their homes.
3) Kill their parents.
4) Kill their siblings.
5) Kill their children.
6) Kill their friends.
7) Bomb their capitol.
8) Bomb anyone who complains about it.
9) Internationaly televise the results.

Next group will be more reluctant to participate.


ya forgot the one i mentioned b4
10) kill thier high school football coach

[Jihforce]

How many countries do you know aside from the US that plays football?
And I aint talking about "futbol".

[OC]

Some of my thoughts:

I would like to have 2 armed marshalls (or whatever) on each plane, as well as a backup pilot in the passenger cabin, all in plain clothes. They all change on every flight.

Video would be taken of people as they check in at the airport, again when they board the plane, and again when they disembark. This would tie in to the same type of system they used at the superbowl to help identify known terrorists.

I'd like to see the cockpit made far more secure - very strong locks and made reasonably bulletproof.

We really need to pay our security personnel at the airports more money - I've heard that many don't make much above minimum wage.

Easy, convenient air travel is a thing of the past. Frankly, it's time for a little paranoia. And yes, I'd be willing to pay for it in higher ticket prices.

-OC

[Markel]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
El Al (Israeli Air Lines) does not get hijacked even though they are the number one target of terrorists.

The reasons:

Also, I think that the flight closes (no more checkin allowed) TWO HOURS before departure, to allow for security checking. Forget walking up 15 minutes before departure - you're 1.75 (that's 1 3/4 for the sake of Dark Fury :) ) hours late at that point.

[Grimm]

Originally posted by The Happy Squirrel


ya forgot the one i mentioned b4
10) kill thier high school football coach

Good one!

We can kill their high school gym teacher if they don't have football.

[froggystyle]

ucsb's gymnastics coach was killed on the plain that hit the pentagon

[jase71]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman



Now someone can hack the system remotely and take over 100 planes at once instead of needing 3-6 suicide pilots per plane.

As I said, that's the weakness. But which is easier to do, creating an unhackable communications link, or keeping terrorists off of planes entirely?

Might be worth investigating as an alternative, albeit not the ONLY alternative...

[TheLoneGunman]

Originally posted by Markel
Also, I think that the flight closes (no more checkin allowed) TWO HOURS before departure, to allow for security checking. Forget walking up 15 minutes before departure - you're 1.75 (that's 1 3/4 for the sake of Dark Fury :) ) hours late at that point.

So, would you rather be inconvenienced or dead?

I am sure they also wouldn't sell cash, one-way tickets, moments before the flight, to people with Middle Eastern surnames and appearances (as American Airlines did with the hijackers) without a lot of additional questions and screenings.
If that means, they have an angry customer or lose some business, so be it. It is much better than losing a plane load of passengers and crew.

[Markel]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman

So, would you rather be inconvenienced or dead?

I'm in no way criticizing their practices (like you said, their safety record speaks for itself). I was just pointing out yet another major difference in the way things are run over there, and the changes it would require if we were to try to duplicate it.

[TheLoneGunman]

Originally posted by DarkFury
Besides, a bullet could depressurize the plane and STILL kill everybody.

Someone's been watching too many movies...

The skin of all jets can survive bullets (even shotgun blasts) -- they are tested for this.

Also, the structural integrity of a plane is such that even with a "through and through" hole the plane will only have a tiny hole (which will not cause any significant depressurization)

The only plane I know of that lost integrity in the air (outside of a huge bomb) was a Hawaiian Airlines jet that was already damaged and when it suffered a catastrophic blow, part of the skin peeled off (but unrelated to bullets)

Even if a window/door were blown out, simply reducing altitude (and autopilot would do this immediately) solves the problem. Also, that is the whole purpose of the oxygen masks (to deal with loss of cabin pressure). There is no major harm (outside of reduced oxygen and it being cold) from having a hole in the plane and flying at 30,000 feet



Originally posted by overclocked
I'd like to see the cockpit made far more secure - very strong locks and made reasonably bulletproof.

Reports are still emerging, but apparently the passengers in the plane that crashed in PA broke back into the cockpit in order to defeat the hijackers. Making the door more secure would have kept them from doing this and might have meant the Capitol or Camp David would have been destoyed too.

Also, what about on the ground, when commandos raid a seized plane? They couldn't do that if the cockpit was a bunker. Then the hijackers would always be safe.

[Chinpoko_Mon]

Everyone should have their own little cubicle on the plane..whereby you can't leave it for the entire flight. and the food is already in a little heater in the cubicle... and you can eat as and when you like. You've got your own little potty in there as well, so you gotta live with your own stink.. heheheh =P

And if one of the passengers on board threatens that he/she has a bomb, the pilot can eject that cubicle. Then bye bye Terrorist...

[OC]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
Also, what about on the ground, when commandos raid a seized plane? They couldn't do that if the cockpit was a bunker. Then the hijackers would always be safe. If the cockpit was secure, then the terrorists could not have gained entry in the first place.

-OC

[TheLoneGunman]

Originally posted by overclocked
If the cockpit was secure, then the terrorists could not have gained entry in the first place.


According to the reports, they waited for the pilots to come out.

They did find at leadt one flight attendent with her hands bound and cell phone calls indicated that they killed flight attendants to get the pilots to come out.

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by DarkFury
Sounds good to me...

Too bad the pilots don't have tazers or something to defend themselves if someone tries to rush the cockpit...



tazers aren't good, immagine this situation, you have a dude with a bomb right you taze him but there is a bomb strapped to his chest, the detonator might be affected and the bomb might go off

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by chrissy


In addition to that, he would like to see a "panic button" for the stewards in the back to let them know something is going on. He also suggested with these he would like to see added the ability to gas the back of the plane. He explained the pilots could put on the oxygen masks and hit a switch (stewards prob could too -- oxygen masks) and the gas would put ppl to sleep.

He also said with advance warning, pilots can manuver the plane to increase G-force so anyone standing would be forced to the ground.


good idea except the stewardesses should not have gas masks because they could be killed and the masks will be taken by terrorists, just gas the plane and that be that, then a couple of people can go in the back and tie the terrorists up however another problem is that if a terrorists has a preassure switch on the bomb and if he falls asleep the plain goes boom

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman
El Al (Israeli Air Lines) does not get hijacked even though they are the number one target of terrorists.

The reasons:

1. They FOLLOW the security procedures they have in place. Other airlines have the regulations but are lax in enforcing them. Some of these hijackers were known and were traveling under their own names. They also raised a high security profile (according to the FBI) but they were too lazy to stop them.

2. Trained crews - All El Al aircrew are MILITARY officers (by virtue of a universal draft). As a result, all are fully weapon and battle trained and also used to flying under adverse conditions.

3. Armed marshalls - Although not conspicuous, you can be assured that there is always at least one armed guard on every El Al flight. These people are Special Forces and are trained for this job. This is also why you don't have fights on the plane (although, the stewardesses and the ultra-Orthodox sometimes mix it up a bit, but that's just the fun of the flying on El Al)

4. Safety is above all else - Your right to privacy is not a concern if they want to search your bag. Further, if you fit a certain "profile" (such as BrewMaster described his family fitting) they have no problem pulling you out of line and doing a detailed background check. You don't get a second in an attack and so they prevent them from the begining. If this bothers you, fly another airline and take your chances.

TLG is right, i took ELAL to Israel and Back.

They don't let anybody in the terminal unless you have a ticket... there are armed guards in the terminal as well as an agent or 2 on the plane... sometimes even more, depending on how full the plane is.
you go through like 3 metal detectors plus they check you with portable metal detectors... we saw a guy being pulled from a crowed because there was a cologne in his bag that looks suspicious... and they checked it in case it was a some kind of gas. They have no problem in opening a persons bag... weather it is a carry on or a luggage. They never give out an exact time of departure, and that's just a few of the security procedures... not to mention the really rude waitresses (they made me so mad)

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by evilcyclops
Here's how I think we can prevent skyjackings.

1) Kill the skyjackers and anyone else involved.
2) Bomb their homes.
3) Kill their parents.
4) Kill their siblings.
5) Kill their children.
6) Kill their friends.
7) Bomb their capitol.
8) Bomb anyone who complains about it.
9) Internationaly televise the results.

Next group will be more reluctant to participate.

Give the pilots a gun with hard rubber bullets.
Have a gass that incapacitetes the passengers, it doesn't have to make them unconcious. It can make them tired or puke or just sleepy.
The door to the cabin should be locked for the whole flight. It should be armored and inpenitrable by a .50 cal round.

The airport should have a system that looks for known terrorists. Like the one at the superbowl.
Pay the guards at the airport a living wage. Give bonuses for any exceptional acts. Like spotting a supicious character or fake ID.
Pass people through machines that scan their whole body for weapons. If you are not comfortable with your body, stay home and hide under your couch. Privacy is for the home. The whole puritain thing was cute, but it's time for it to go away when it costs lives.

DUDE... wow... that brought a tear to my eye... i back that idea up and move we vote on it

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by TheLoneGunman


Someone's been watching too many movies...

The skin of all jets can survive bullets (even shotgun blasts) -- they are tested for this.

Also, the structural integrity of a plane is such that even with a "through and through" hole the plane will only have a tiny hole (which will not cause any significant depressurization)

The only plane I know of that lost integrity in the air (outside of a huge bomb) was a Hawaiian Airlines jet that was already damaged and when it suffered a catastrophic blow, part of the skin peeled off (but unrelated to bullets)

Even if a window/door were blown out, simply reducing altitude (and autopilot would do this immediately) solves the problem. Also, that is the whole purpose of the oxygen masks (to deal with loss of cabin pressure). There is no major harm (outside of reduced oxygen and it being cold) from having a hole in the plane and flying at 30,000 feet




actually that kind of a depreasurazation would most likley cause the roof to fly off... i mean i don't know if you guys know this but there was a russian space crew about 20 years ago, it consisted of Potsaev, Dobrovolsky, and Volkov, and when they landed they found them dead. So they couldn't figure out what the hell happened and then they found out that the capsule in which they descended contained a pinsized whole which cause the depreasurization of the capsule and ...well you know what happens to bodies under those kinds of situatons.

And i do agree about the skin of the jet, but there are vulnerable areas, such as passanger windows and pilot windows.

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by DarkFury


If security at the check-in gate does their JOB, then he wouldn't have a BOMB on the plane in the first place!

Zap his azz with that tazer... and NIGHTY NIGHT!!! BZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!! true but just in case