american loyalists

[ribitch]

I'm a proud detroiter, and it bothers me that we are seeing more and more non american cars on american streets and at the same time we have people blaming the government for our slowing economy. These people are the same one who drive the toyotas, VW's, hondas. and any other foriegn car.

What I'm getting at is, who drive what brand and model of vehicle and why.

I drive a Frod Ranger. Its affordable since i'm a student, gets ok gas mileage, and in my mine looks good. Oh yeah, and its american.

Show your national pride and save our economy. Buy american

[Nanotech9]

yah, will do, just as soon as they can equal the quality and style of foreign cars, like BMW, or Porsche, or.... etc.

personally, i buy what i think is the best built vehicle for the buck. Honda Bikes, and now, hopefully, only BMW's and Porsche's (and in the very far future, FERRARI!!! W00t!)

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by ribitch
I'm a proud detroiter, and it bothers me that we are seeing more and more non american cars on american streets and at the same time we have people blaming the government for our slowing economy. These people are the same one who drive the toyotas, VW's, hondas. and any other foriegn car.

What I'm getting at is, who drive what brand and model of vehicle and why.

I drive a Frod Ranger. Its affordable since i'm a student, gets ok gas mileage, and in my mine looks good. Oh yeah, and its american.

Show your national pride and save our economy. Buy american
You do realize a lot of these "ferners" have the bulk of their production over here right? So buying American has the very real potential of further slowing the economy!

[attgig]

Japanese makers have plants over here....but as for European...ehhh..

I know Honda and Toyota have plants in US. and Nissan's trucks/suv's are starting to be built here....

European have been slower to come over I think. BMW does a couple of its cars here, and Benz only does their suv here....

While American cars are commonly made in Canada and Mexico as well as the US (yeah, that whole NA free trade thing that they agreed on a few years ago).

So, yeah, there's a valid argument. There are workers here for Japanese companies...how about the cars that are made jointly with two companies...but seriously, the real money, the real profits, they go back to the headquarters....for Japanese cars - to Japan. American cars - to Detroit....

Another thing to add to this weirdo situation....
recently, you see the Ford Escape and Mazda Tribute(although Mazda is i think controlled by ford now). And there's been Nissan quest and
Mercury Villager. Chevy Prizm & Toyota Corolla, Eagle talon and Mitsubishi eclipse (of old), etc...
the list goes on..
who's really getting the money in these situations?


here's a short list of what's built where...


GENERAL MOTORS

Chevrolet Prizm
Fremont, Calif. (in cooperation with Toyota)

Buick Regal
Ontario, Canada

Pontiac Montana minivan
Doraville, Ga.

Chevrolet Suburban SUV
Arlington, Texas and Janesville, Wis.

Chevrolet Avalanche pickup/SUV
Silao, Mexico

FORD

Focus
Wayne, Mich. and Hermosillo, Mexico

Taurus
Hapeville, Ga. and Chicago, Ill.

Windstar minivan
Ontario, Canada

Explorer SUV
Hazelwood, Mo.

F150 pickup
Kansas City, Mo. and Cuautitla, Mexico

DAIMLERCHRYSLER

Dodge Neon
Belvidere, Ill.

Chrysler 300M
Ontario, Canada

Jeep Grand Cherokee SUV
Detroit, Mich.

Dodge Grand Caravan minivan
St. Louis, Mo. and Ontario, Canada

PT Cruiser
Toluca, Mexico

TOYOTA

Corolla
Fremont, Calif. (in cooperation with GM) and Ontario, Canada

Camry
Georgetown, Ky. and Japan

Sienna minivan
Georgetown, Ky.

RAV4 SUV
Toyota City, Japan

Tundra pickup
Princeton, Ind.

H0NDA

Civic
East Liberty, Ohio

Accord
Marysville, Ohio

Odyssey minivan
Ontario, Canada

CR-V SUV
Sayama, Japan

S2000 sports car
Sayama, Japan



reference (http://www.money.com/money/depts/autos/onwheels/archive/010817b.html)

easiest way to find where your car was built(i think only new cars)...go to www.edmunds.com
find your car..
go to the specs & safety tab
it'll tell you where...

That said, I drive an Oldsmobile Alero (Lansing Mi), and my family has owned all 'American' cars except 1.

[attgig]

but I think buying GM or Ford is a really good deal cause of that 0% financing thing going on...

[ranger498]

then again this is america and if your a true american you get what you like freedom right ;)

what do i drive
1.supra tt
2.dodge stealth r/t turbo
3.ford expedition eb
what did i have
1.ford mustang (82 first car)
2.mustang gt 85 4bc
3.porsche 944
4.porsche 944 turbo
5.porsche 928s4
why not another american sports car honestly i dont like the loks and feel inside and there great in straits but awfull in corners yea yea i know i can get a vett but for 45,000 i got a supra tt at 22,000 that just as fast and now faster than a stock c5 and will beat the pants soon off a newer vett not to add its very easy to make fast with boltons :poke:and in internal motor work ;)

again im not knocking the american sports cars but there not my cup of beer:cheers:!

again this is america you get what you like!:thumb:

[shaggymatt]

Regardless of what you buy, there are tariffs imposed on the foreign automobiles to make up some of that difference. In most cases, foreign vehicles are a better value anyway. More options per given buck, better reliability and the resale value far outlasts domestic cars.

Case in point, my wife had a Chevy Cavalier Z24 which lost almost HALF of its value over a year and a half (Purchase was ~$17,500 resale was ~$12k). Now she has a VW Passat wagon, almost two years old, just about 22k miles, and I just ran the market report the other week on it, and it has lost about $2k, in value. How do you beat that?

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by shaggymatt
How do you beat that?

Flipping 2002 Porsche Turbos, CL55's or Plymouth Prowlers for five-digit profit. That's how you beat it!

[Nanotech9]

Originally posted by att gig
but I think buying GM or Ford is a really good deal cause of that 0% financing thing going on...

whats financing?!?!?

I always pay cash for my vehicles. Cause, (unless you get 0% financing) making payments is like burning money. And usually, you cant pay a car off as fast as it depreciates.

of course, i only have 2 cars and a motorcycle, and the most expensive was only $4500, but i like it. I'm trying to sell the "old" car and the bike, and then either upgrade the BMW, or got a bike for around $8K. Should be plenty to get a nice cruiser (Honda Shadow 1100cc or similar.)

[Blu]

When I started looking, I really didn't have much in the choice of reputable American cars. My budget was around 22k, and what American car is in that range for a young 20 year old? Cavalier? Bad performance, and terrible resale, not to mention the feeling of cheapness. No pickups, I have no use for them. Neon? Yeah, right.

So I started to look at VWs. Well, for fit and finish, they can't be beat. Performance? I got a GTI VR6, 174hp, 180+ lbs torque. If the Americans want to sell a car to anyone other than middle aged market, they better get jumpin'. Ford's trying with the focus, but it needs more power. Chevy has done nothing, and Chysler isn't trying either. Don't blame the empty American market on an antipatriotic sentiment, that's the complete opposite of what is happening.

As a side note, check out what cars are selling in the European market... Ford Ka, Ford Focus, Ford Mondeo, Ford Puma. Jaguars? Ford owned. Volvos? Ford owned. Saab? Chevy owned. Mercedes? Owns Chrysler. On that vein, you shouldn't buy a Jeep or a Dodge, the $$ goes to Germany.

TBG

[ribitch]

i never said that jap cars were not made here. They are made here, and some americans are not made here. But where does the majority of the money made on the car go? to the parent company. Hell, look at the old geos, foreign cars, but GM got the money.

I see people being laid off by GM and ford(daimler is left out because its a european company in my eyes) because people are not buying american.

Hell VW has a global headquarters about 20 miles from my house, but they are still a european company. Very littlke of the money made on those cars go into our economy. Imports are made here to avoid the tariffs of importing the car. Which results in larger profit margins and larger bonuses for company officials.

I just think our economy is being fu#$%^ by these people who said "Oh, we're screwed, the republicans are now in office" or "Bush is going to screw our nation, gore deserves to be the president" While these same people are driving the subarus, toyotas, vw's, and hondas.

Being a student, most of those people are also the ones who do not work while in school. They rely of mommy and daddy. Its a disgusting sight to see, but its the way it is.

Where i'm at, i see allot of people bitching about the economy, but not supporting it. Why? It wont fix itself unless we act upon it. Thats why i say buy american. support american companies. Buy stocks while the market is in a slup. Help save our nation from these bad economic times.

[Blu]

When people post on message boards and are disputed, yet reply by restating a point and not address the disputes, they are labeled trolls. Don't be a troll, and don't be offensive by using words like "jap."

TBG

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by ribitch
i never said that jap cars were not made here. They are made here, and some americans are not made here. But where does the majority of the money made on the car go? to the parent company. Hell, look at the old geos, foreign cars, but GM got the money.

I see people being laid off by GM and ford(daimler is left out because its a european company in my eyes) because people are not buying american.

Hell VW has a global headquarters about 20 miles from my house, but they are still a european company. Very littlke of the money made on those cars go into our economy. Imports are made here to avoid the tariffs of importing the car. Which results in larger profit margins and larger bonuses for company officials.

I just think our economy is being fu#$%^ by these people who said "Oh, we're screwed, the republicans are now in office" or "Bush is going to screw our nation, gore deserves to be the president" While these same people are driving the subarus, toyotas, vw's, and hondas.

Being a student, most of those people are also the ones who do not work while in school. They rely of mommy and daddy. Its a disgusting sight to see, but its the way it is.

Where i'm at, i see allot of people bitching about the economy, but not supporting it. Why? It wont fix itself unless we act upon it. Thats why i say buy american. support american companies. Buy stocks while the market is in a slup. Help save our nation from these bad economic times.

What in the Sam Hill are you talking about? Who do you think builds these factories? Do the construction workers fire their wages back to Japan or Germany? How about the people building Z3's in North Carolina? Are they sending money back to "the old country"? How about those guys selling Lexus's? I see a lot of white guys in there. And I don't think many of them speak Japanese!

Sure, some of the money heads across the borders. But guess what: that means more money with which they can buy our exports, and narrowing the trade deficit is the best way out of our slump. As our dollar weakens, our products become more attractive to buy, imports become more expensive. It'll work itself out without your conscious "buy American" credo.

Buy what you want. Going against "rational" instincts is the best way for American companies to get whacked in the marketplace. Zealot-like customers are the best path to complacency, because even zealots eventually get tired of an inferior product.

And as a "disgusting" person that relied on mommy and daddy and didn't have to work (but did anyway) through school, I'd suggest perhaps spending a little less time working and a little more time learning. You might understand the forces at work in the marketplace a little better.

[Apex]

Personally, I think to buy the best regardless of where it comes from is American. To believe that American cars are so poor quality that they must be purchased on the basis of patriotism instead of the normal qualities (build quality, styling, performance, reliability, price, etc) is, flat out, a slap in the face to every US auto worker, designer, and exec.

In a fledgling industry, perhaps the product must be protected via import barriers (blocks, tariffs, etc), however the US auto industry is perhaps the largest, oldest one in existance. Do you believe that the US auto workers are incompetent, and thus need "national pride" to motivate people to purchase their products? Or perhaps the designers are lacking skill? Maybe the Big Three's corporate decision makers (many of whom are well respected regardless of industry and nationality) are to blame for our domestic vehicles' inability to compete on an equal playing field?

[attgig]

Originally posted by TheBluGuy
When I started looking, I really didn't have much in the choice of reputable American cars. My budget was around 22k, and what American car is in that range for a young 20 year old? Cavalier? Bad performance, and terrible resale, not to mention the feeling of cheapness. No pickups, I have no use for them. Neon? Yeah, right.


Well, I'm 22, and my budget was ~20k. I got a oldsmobile Alero, and I love my car. V6, 170ish hp, 200 lb tourque...

comprable to your Jetta I think, and definitely styled for people our age.

Contrary to popular belief, THERE ARE AMERICAN CARS THAT ARE TARGETED FOR US.


Also, Although a person shouldn't buy an American car just b/c it's American, I think it should be a factor.
If you're deciding btw infiniti, acura, benz, & volvo, people should give consideration that a volvo is now American owned....and not totally disregard WHERE the vehicle is made and just go by trends.

I think where the car is made factors into the quality of the car, and Apex, your point is exactly what the problem is. American public doesn't see American cars as quality cars (people go toward Japanese cars when they want a reliable car). Americans are actually slapping American autoworkes in their face.

[Blu]

Originally posted by att gig


Well, I'm 22, and my budget was ~20k. I got a oldsmobile Alero, and I love my car. V6, 170ish hp, 200 lb tourque...

comprable to your Jetta I think, and definitely styled for people our age.



Well, first off, I don't drive a Jetta, I drive a GTI. And while the 170hp 200lbs of torque is respectable for an engine, the Alero is less of a performance car b/c of it's weight. Also, I've driven Aleros, and it's a nice car, but for the $$ I think the fit and finish of a VW is a better deal. The utility of the Golf/GTI body is also unrivaled in the American market.

Now, it's time to whup some butt in the Fantasy league! WAAAHOOO!


TBG

[Jihforce]

Personally, I would not buy American because I just haven't really seen a good looking/performing american car that I can afford. I've already driven a "japanese" (if you can consider a Mazda truly japanese...its probably 50% or more American) and was sorely disappointed. So now I look to Germany to provide my with the Ultimate Driving Experience :D

[attgig]

Originally posted by TheBluGuy


Well, first off, I don't drive a Jetta, I drive a GTI. And while the 170hp 200lbs of torque is respectable for an engine, the Alero is less of a performance car b/c of it's weight. Also, I've driven Aleros, and it's a nice car, but for the $$ I think the fit and finish of a VW is a better deal. The utility of the Golf/GTI body is also unrivaled in the American market.

Now, it's time to whup some butt in the Fantasy league! WAAAHOOO!


TBG


ooops, my bad...for some reason, just kinda was thinking 6 cylinder...vr6, and jetta was just...yeah...
well, anyways...
weight:
Alero: 3042 LB.
GTI: 3011 LB.

i guess those 31 pounds make a big difference.

As for the utility, yeah, I can understand getting the hatchback thing...and if that appeals 2 you, that's cool....

all I'm sayin is American cars are as good as the imports, and to dismiss American cars because of their 'image', and a car that screwed them 10-15 years ago, well, i think is kinda junks...

[Showtime]

Here is the thing that bothers me the most. How is it that with all the tarriffs and shipping cost, etc. Japanese(some european) cars are generally a better value. Living in So. cal i have many friends who work for various car companies from sales to corporate to other jobs and they all drive and support foreign car companies. Why? Better value and more reliable.
The Japanese looked at what Ford was doing and copied it. Later they improved and finally passed the USA in quality and reliability.
I can't comprehend why we dont look at what they are doing and copy it and try to do it better. It seems we rely on the government and some sort of nationalist pride to keep out car companies running. Fleet sales to the government/tax breaks/ etc and people who will only buy American. If it wasnt for this sad SUV craze we'd have no car companies.
We should be building the best cars on the planet damn it.
We have talented designers and good union workers. We pay all this money to "charismatic" ceo's that do little for all that money.
I want reliable honda type engines and toyota toughness/longevity in an American car. Better designs that dont reek of cheapness or tackyness(?). As an American i refuse to support mediocrity and i wont buy an American car just to buy American. Build it right and there wouldnt be any discussion. my 2 cent......
cars ive owned or used:
-Pontiac 6000(the bruiser or should i say bruisy/abused)
-VW Scirocco(fun but many problems)
-Hyndai excel(Dad bought this cheap car 16 yrs ago and it still runs but no one has driven it for yrs)
-Honda Civic(The best motors on the planet.)
-Infinity q45(gas guzzler i like the power but sometimes i miss my civic)
-Dodge Vans(many problems)
-Dodge Ram 2500/3500 trucks w/ the cummins deasle(awsome work truck/motor, i think i have to give some credit to Mr. Iacocca[?])
GMC trucks w/ the Isuzu diesel(best diesel motor ive ever seen/heard incredible great torque)

[attgig]

Originally posted by the jello is jigglin
Here is the thing that bothers me the most. How is it that with all the tarriffs and shipping cost, etc. Japanese(some european) cars are generally a better value. Living in So. cal i have many friends who work for various car companies from sales to corporate to other jobs and they all drive and support foreign car companies. Why? Better value and more reliable.

well, i'm not quite sure what u mean by better value...
purely $$-wise, Japanese cars are more expensive than its American counter-parts
more reliable...well, i like to take that on a case by case basis...
I think there are American cars that are better value/more reliable than its Japanese counterparts, but it's just that millions of people are buying the Honda Accords, the Toyota Camry's that people think, hey, all those people can't be wrong...i'll get one....



The Japanese looked at what Ford was doing and copied it. Later they improved and finally passed the USA in quality and reliability.
I can't comprehend why we dont look at what they are doing and copy it and try to do it better. It seems we rely on the government and some sort of nationalist pride to keep out car companies running. Fleet sales to the government/tax breaks/ etc and people who will only buy American. If it wasnt for this sad SUV craze we'd have no car companies.

the way the Japanese got into the car market is underpricing the domestics, and making them more reliable than the americans in the past...
when the horrible 70's & 80's rolled around for the American car industry, the Japanese got a firm grip, and so, with their reliability and their cheaponesss, they got a good following...
how do the Americans win those people back??? it's not just copying what they did....they need a newer/better business model....

oh, and don't forget the minivans....it's the minivans that kept Chrysler afloat for a good 10 years.



We should be building the best cars on the planet damn it.
We have talented designers and good union workers. We pay all this money to "charismatic" ceo's that do little for all that money.
I want reliable honda type engines and toyota toughness/longevity in an American car. Better designs that dont reek of cheapness or tackyness(?). As an American i refuse to support mediocrity and i wont buy an American car just to buy American. Build it right and there wouldnt be any discussion. my 2 cent......
cars ive owned or used:



nor should people say that they won't buy American until every single car that ford & gm produces are 100% awesome....
there are good models out there that are not mediocrity....

all i'm sayin, and have been sayin is that you can't judge American cars today by your/public's opinion about them & a bad car you had 10-20 years ago...

[Showtime]

im not going point for point with you but when i said more reliable i meant more reliable. look over my list of cars, ive driven most everything(including:91 Mitsu Eclipse Turbo(fun),ford expedition 99/2000, early 90's audis, acura legend 85, acura TL 97, Nissan Maximas 89&2000,etc). I know many people with many different types of cars. Ive heard and seen the good,the bad and the ugly with different car companies.
Fact: Honda motors run perfect(argue, all car guys will lol).
Fact: Toyota trucks keep going(how many early 80's toy trucks are still on the road compared to chevys, which i believe sold more at the time).
Fact: BMW's run faster, corner better and look nicer than their domestic counter parts(Cad sts, Lincoln LS etc Check any car mag).
Fact: Car Magazines consistantly rank foreign made vehicles above domestics.
American cars are far improved from that late 70's early 80's crapola they produced but are still inferior in certain areas. We should thank foreign competition for forcing us to raise our standards.
Many foreign cars have far higher resale(esp:Acura, Honda, Toyota, Lexus[toyota again], Mercedes).
I used to be a car nut. Subscribrictions to 3 major car mags and Turbo mag. I love all the Vettes, Camaros and I like the Lincoln LS. I think Saturn makes good cars for the money(the new mini sport ute looks nice). Gotta love the Dodge Viper and those new retro cars. For heavy loads you have to use an American Full size truck.
I used to drive for a living(sm items in my honda to towing a 5th wheel in our work trucks). I think my opinions are very valid but maybe you know more than i do :P.
Things to ponder: Cadillac Catera-yuck/ Pontiac sunfire-neighbor bought and had constant problems, returned it and bought a ford/ Ford Expedition- 99 Family bought and returned under the CA lemon law/ Pontica Aztec- ewww/ Oldsmobile-good bye/ Explorers- tires or combination?/ gremlins/pacers/ Late 70's early 80's mustang/ any pre 1990's chrysler p'eeww/ FORD = Fix Or Repair Daily(saw that on a chevy)/ new taurus :( / Chrysler+ Dalmer= foreign car comp/ Ford + Jaguar = domestic/ US car makers are very thankful for mini vans and SUV's.
I could now tell you why the Lakers are going to 3 peat but if your a loyal fan of whoever else youll insist otherwise (but I'll still be right :P).

[Apex]

Interesting fact:

You guys remember that the Toyota launched the Lexus line and GM launched the Saturn line at approximately the same time? Toyota spent $1 billion on Lexus (cars, dealerships, nameplate, etc) at launch. GM spent $4 billion on Saturn at launch.

[attgig]

Prepared to get confused.. (http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/dai/2001/october/20011023_dai_gm.xml)

American or Japanese car?