The Pathetic ACLU

[johnnymk]

Although I really wonder what the term: "God Bless America" really means in today's society, this really sickens me:


ACLU demand fuels controversy over patriotism
250 rally in support of 'God Bless America' message on sign at elementary
school.
By Ryan McCarthy
The Sacramento Bee
(Published Saturday, October, 6, 2001 5:34AM)

http://www.fresnobee.com/local/story/955799p-1017055c.html

SACRAMENTO -- A demand by the American Civil Liberties Union that Breen
Elementary School in Rocklin remove a "God Bless America" sign prompted
angry parents, students and administrators to rally at the school Friday
evening.

About 250 people, many clad in red white and blue, gathered to support the
message, which was placed on a marquee in front of the school after the
Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on the United States.

Linda Kosturos, an instructional aide at Breen, said, "Rocklin has been
closer than ever in the wake of the terrorist attacks. It's so sad this has
arisen."

The ACLU contends the words broadcast "a hurtful, divisive message."

The organization's Wednesday letter to Breen Elementary calls the message a
"clear violation of the California and United States constitutions, as well
as the California Education Code."

"It must be replaced immediately," said the letter from Margaret Crosby,
staff counsel for the ACLU of Northern California, based in San Francisco.

Phillip Trujillo, a lawyer representing the Rocklin Unified School
District, said the words don't violate laws on the separation of church and
state.

"It's simply not a religious expression," he said. "It's instead a
patriotic expression."

His written response sent to the ACLU on Friday describes as "absurd" the
argument that the phrase "God Bless America" represents a "hurtful,
divisive message."

"I would like to think that the ACLU would not attempt to preclude or
inhibit the free expression of patriotism and goodwill at a time when it is
most appropriate, helpful or even healing," he said.

Mark Forbes, president of the district's board of trustees, said he was
"disgusted" by the ACLU request.

"I would like someone to explain how 'God Bless America' hurts anyone," he
said.

ACLU lawyer Crosby said Friday that "this is a time when we need to promote
unity among Americans of all faiths. Many schools are flying flags to
instill a sense of unity in a time of trouble."

"By displaying a religious message, the Breen Elementary School is dividing
its young students along religious lines," Crosby added. "School officials
are hurting and isolating their schoolchildren of minority faiths when they
should be supporting them and the values of pluralism and tolerance."

Displaying such a message is not only unconstitutional "but implies only
students who share the faith are truly patriotic," she said.

A parent whose child attends the school and is "greatly troubled by the
sign" spurred the request, the ACLU said in a written statement.

Before receiving the letter, Rocklin Superintendent Kevin Brown said he had
received calls from two people asking that the statement on the marquee be
removed.

He said that with the district's response Friday, "the ball's in the ACLU's
court."

[attgig]

:disa:

[welfareloser]

i do kind of understand. i don't think it hurts anyone to just keep their religion out of a few public venues. this doesn't prevent anyone from expressing their personal views as loudly and as often as they desire, it just keeps the poor little pagan babies from feeling like complete whackos. teachers are very influential. if you are not religious, and you are getting a strong message of religion from people (teachers n principals) whose JOB IT IS TO TELL YOU WHAT TO DO AND HOW TO BEHAVE, it will leave you hurt. i understand that religious ppl turn to their religions in difficult times. that's a good thing. i applaud it. but i don't want my two year old to have "GOD BLESS AMERICA" or "PRAY FOR AMERICA" shouting down at him from the entrance of his preschool. he doesn't pray. he probly won't believe in god. there's nothing wrong with that. leaving such a sign up would make him feel that there IS something wrong with him, whereas never putting up such a sign does nothing to stop ppl who do pray from praying, and they will not be made to feel bad. so i think signs like that should not be put up.

i don't necessarily like the fact that the sign has turned into a fight. that isn't good for anyone. but i can't get upset with the aclu for asking that it be removed; it shouldn't have been put up in the first place. i don't want to see this tragedy turned into a way for ppl with an agenda to sneak religion into places where it isn't supposed to be. religion is in your heart, in your family, in your place of worship, between you and your god. it is not supposed to be in a place that should be welcoming to ppl of all religions, or of no religion at all.

[topane]

Welfare, I do see your point somewhat. However, the expression has been around quite some time, plus there's a song with the same name. My problem with the ACLU is they've taken it upon themselves to nitpick little crap like this. I understand it may bother someone. But if it makes 99% (or whatever) of the population feel better, why not do it?

[attgig]

if it's bad to have a sign on there saying God Bless America, is it bad for the President to close his speech by saying 'and God Bless America'. i guess the aclu would say yes.
Is it bad for Bush to have said that the friday after the terrorist attacks to have claimed it a day for prayer, and thus cities would have multi-religious prayer meetings publically (where mayors and governors, etc would attend)? does that make the aclu feel bad too?

or how about every day things, besides tragedies....
what if a kid told his non-church going friend at the lunch table at school, that he was going to church on sunday. Would that make the aclu feel bad?

that's how far it seems the aclu is going with this...
the *nitpicking* that they do..

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by att gig
if it's bad to have a sign on there saying God Bless America, is it bad for the President to close his speech by saying 'and God Bless America'. i guess the aclu would say yes.
Is it bad for Bush to have said that the friday after the terrorist attacks to have claimed it a day for prayer, and thus cities would have multi-religious prayer meetings publically (where mayors and governors, etc would attend)? does that make the aclu feel bad too?

or how about every day things, besides tragedies....
what if a kid told his non-church going friend at the lunch table at school, that he was going to church on sunday. Would that make the aclu feel bad?

that's how far it seems the aclu is going with this...
the *nitpicking* that they do..

the aclu isn't upset about any of that, tho. they just want schools to follow the law. i fail to see where that is nitpicking. expressions of personal feelings are fine. creating organizations for the expression of religion is fine. those are where the examples you gave above fall. but schools are non-religious organizations... for a reason.

[Grimm]

Originally posted by welfareloser
i do kind of understand. i don't think it hurts anyone to just keep their religion out of a few public venues. this doesn't prevent anyone from expressing their personal views as loudly and as often as they desire, it just keeps the poor little pagan babies from feeling like complete whackos. teachers are very influential. if you are not religious, and you are getting a strong message of religion from people (teachers n principals) whose JOB IT IS TO TELL YOU WHAT TO DO AND HOW TO BEHAVE, it will leave you hurt. i understand that religious ppl turn to their religions in difficult times. that's a good thing. i applaud it. but i don't want my two year old to have "GOD BLESS AMERICA" or "PRAY FOR AMERICA" shouting down at him from the entrance of his preschool. he doesn't pray. he probly won't believe in god. there's nothing wrong with that. leaving such a sign up would make him feel that there IS something wrong with him, whereas never putting up such a sign does nothing to stop ppl who do pray from praying, and they will not be made to feel bad. so i think signs like that should not be put up.


You cruel bastard!
*/Begin Rant/*
These people are hurting terribly how can you say they are wrong for trying to alleviate some of that pain? Crashing jumbo jets into inhabited buildings is wrong. Asking for Gods blessing is not.

The double standard we place our kids in is ridiculous! Can't even mention Christianity in school (well, it's ok if it is in a negative context, but just this once...), but we have to have days where we stop learning the curriculum and learn "sensitivity" towards other peoples cultures religions.

This nation was founded by Christians, for Christians. As we have experienced religious persecution we believed it was wrong to subject others to that same persecution. So we have religious freedom and separation of church and state. This separation was never intended to prevent people from expressing religious sentiments.

The assertion that the sign "God bless America" harms children is ludicrous. Suicide bombers and car bombs harm children. National unity protects our children. What's next? When a child sneezes in class and the instructor says "Bless you", do we fire them? It is religious, they are asking for the blessing of God an the child!

"God bless America" is more than a banner. It is a quote of our current president, as well as several past ones. It is the title of a very patriotic song. And it is not specifically invoking the god mentioned in the bible. It could be asking for Ahla's blessing. Or Thor's for that matter.

It scares me when an organization that is supposed to be protecting us from our government is more narrow-minded than that government.

If a local public school started trying to preach in the classes, I would be among the first in the picket line. But this?!? This is nothing. It is people trying to get over their hurt. Stopping them is wrong and hurtful in and of itself. Shame on the ACLU!!!
*/End Rant/*

[Markel]

The problem with the ACLU is that it takes such a one-sided stance. If something appears to promote religion in the slightest way, they want to abolish it. But when someone or something promotes an anti-religious view, the ACLU will be silent. I think public schools should be a-religious, but not anti-religious.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by evilcyclops


You cruel bastard!
*/Begin Rant/*
These people are hurting terribly how can you say they are wrong for trying to alleviate some of that pain? Crashing jumbo jets into inhabited buildings is wrong. Asking for Gods blessing is not.

The double standard we place our kids in is ridiculous! Can't even mention Christianity in school (well, it's ok if it is in a negative context, but just this once...), but we have to have days where we stop learning the curriculum and learn "sensitivity" towards other peoples cultures religions.

This nation was founded by Christians, for Christians. As we have experienced religious persecution we believed it was wrong to subject others to that same persecution. So we have religious freedom and separation of church and state. This separation was never intended to prevent people from expressing religious sentiments.

The assertion that the sign "God bless America" harms children is ludicrous. Suicide bombers and car bombs harm children. National unity protects our children. What's next? When a child sneezes in class and the instructor says "Bless you", do we fire them? It is religious, they are asking for the blessing of God an the child!

"God bless America" is more than a banner. It is a quote of our current president, as well as several past ones. It is the title of a very patriotic song. And it is not specifically invoking the god mentioned in the bible. It could be asking for Ahla's blessing. Or Thor's for that matter.

It scares me when an organization that is supposed to be protecting us from our government is more narrow-minded than that government.

If a local public school started trying to preach in the classes, I would be among the first in the picket line. But this?!? This is nothing. It is people trying to get over their hurt. Stopping them is wrong and hurtful in and of itself. Shame on the ACLU!!!
*/End Rant/*

I don't understand the confusion. Religious freedom effectively secularlizes government. Who runs public schools? The government. Therefore, there is no reason God, any god, should be mentioned in a school context.

I find many of the ACLU's efforts personally repugnant. They defend rapists, they attempt to keep murderers from being executed. They defend abortion bombers. As disgusting as it is, it's important work, because if we just persecute the minority without any type of representation, then what the hell is America about?

When George Bush says God bless America, I find it to be a personal expression of his faith, not the government's. When it's just thrown up on a school, that's institutionalized. There are hundreds of different patriotic sayings that don't involve some religious being.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by Markel
The problem with the ACLU is that it takes such a one-sided stance. If something appears to promote religion in the slightest way, they want to abolish it. But when someone or something promotes an anti-religious view, the ACLU will be silent. I think public schools should be a-religious, but not anti-religious. Word up.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by evilcyclops

This nation was founded by Christians, for Christians. As we have experienced religious persecution we believed it was wrong to subject others to that same persecution. So we have religious freedom and separation of church and state. This separation was never intended to prevent people from expressing religious sentiments.

The assertion that the sign "God bless America" harms children is ludicrous. Suicide bombers and car bombs harm children. National unity protects our children.

i agree that it was never intended to prevent ppl from expressing religious sentiments. but surely you can see that there is a difference between PEOPLE expressing their beliefs, and INSTITUTIONS expressing them. i don't want my kid's school expressing religious sentiment. i don't care if his classmates do. i don't care if his teachers do. but "the school" as an entity... i would like to draw the line there. and that's the law.

yes, some ppl go overboard with this issue - on both sides. of course death and destruction are horrible, and of course they are far worse than "god bless america" hangin up at a school. but that doesn't mean that the sign is okay. i don't understand why some ppl feel that their religion is so attacked simply because a few ppl would like to not feel attacked by a religion not their own.

are they going a bit overboard with this one? probably. this particular sign, i would consider borderline. i wouldn't be overjoyed to see it (mostly because i would be wondering ... what next? which is hardly fair...) but i wouldn't ask anyone to take it down. i can understand why some ppl would want it taken down.

why do you care so much that children see that AT A SCHOOL? they can see it at church, they can see it at home, they can say it, write it on their notebooks, wear it on their t-shirts... it's just that some ppl don't want the great entity that is "the school" endorsing god. i don't think that diminishes anyone's relgious experience.

take-home message: you are welcome to your personal religious experience. you are welcome to express it publically. you are welcome to preach on the street corner, shout it from the mountaintops, carry signs, try to convert others, etc. you are welcome to share your religious experience with others in the form of prayer meetings in the school, as far as i am concerned. but when a school building has a religious message on it, i start to not like it. and someone has yet to convince me that asking that school buildings remain free of such messages is somehow discriminatory to the religious among us, that it somehow diminishes their freedom of expression, or diminishes their relgious experience in any way.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by pennypinch
Word up.

me three. if you want to hate the aclu, go ahead. i think they fill an important role, but i don't like a lot of things that they seem to want.

[attgig]

Originally posted by welfareloser


the aclu isn't upset about any of that, tho. they just want schools to follow the law. i fail to see where that is nitpicking. expressions of personal feelings are fine. creating organizations for the expression of religion is fine. those are where the examples you gave above fall. but schools are non-religious organizations... for a reason.

Bush instituting that the friday after the plane thing was, well, not an expression of 'personal' feelings, but making his 'personal' feelings public and encouraging america to do the same in his 'presidential pulpit'. That was more than personal expression of religion.

And how about 'Christian clubs' that meet in schools/afterschool? That is allowed, as long as it is not publically supported by adminitration & teachers, but ACLU goes against that. I think that's a correlation to my friend telling friend if they want to go to church. using school grounds is just a convenience/detail.

[asker]

Here's your support Welfare. This country's founding fathers believed in the "Separation Of Chuch and State". I feel that that belief still holds up. It's a shame that things like this have gotten out of hand. It's a great thing to have pride in your country and also faith in your religion. However, there are proper times and places to exercise those individually. My parents were of a generation where they had to go to separate restrooms, schools, special nights to go skating, special areas to sit in a movie theater, and couldn't always choose where they wanted to eat or live. Although I don't agree with the ACLU 100% I have grown up believing that there a definite need for this organization in this country. They help insure that everyone may be treated fairly. I'll get off of my soapbox now.

[Markel]

Originally posted by asker
Although I don't agree with the ACLU 100% I have grown up believing that there a definite need for this organization in this country. They help insure that everyone may be treated fairly.
At least, everyone that agrees with their views. :rolleyes:

[johnnymk]

I pay nearly $2000 in property taxes to these Godless institutions called public schools. They can teach witchcraft, evolution and all sorts of secular humanism at my expense. I have no option, I HAVE to pay thses taxes or they will take my home from me. And I don't have any kids!
Where are my rights?
I can just imagine going through the rubble at The World Trade Center and someone finds the body of an ACLU lawyer with a small flag expressing: "What about Bin Laden's civil rights?" The ACLU sickens me!!

[sbp]

"This country's founding fathers believed in the "Separation Of Chuch and State"." Nope thats a misbelief.

[zenbooty]

People who hate the ACLU here really just hate the idea of freedom for people from the Bull**** Christian ideals that burden this nation.

Go ACLU!

[styleee]

i personally am offended by the sign "god bless america," but i'm not going to get into it, becuase i don't feel like arguing right now.

i just have one question to everyone who supports the sign being on a school... how would you feel if a sign was errected that said something like "Pray to Allah" or "dig deep into your potion bags, and we will save our land"? btw, i'm the most unreligous person in the entire world, and as i'm trying to think of something anti-christian to say, my mind is coming up blank. so, i hope u get the point i'm trying to make.

you would never allow your children to see that another force might be greater then the one you believe in. and all we are asking is that you respect us, in the same way that we aren't trying to push our beliefs on you.


****
and welfare :thumbup:

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by johnnymk
I pay nearly $2000 in property taxes to these Godless institutions called public schools. They can teach witchcraft, evolution and all sorts of secular humanism at my expense. I have no option, I HAVE to pay thses taxes or they will take my home from me. And I don't have any kids!
Where are my rights?
I can just imagine going through the rubble at The World Trade Center and someone finds the body of an ACLU lawyer with a small flag expressing: "What about Bin Laden's civil rights?" The ACLU sickens me!!
I sincerely hope you aren't referring to Harry Potter or something.

You have the right not to send your children to a public school. That is your right. You have the right to try and elect people that will reverse the trend of secular government. And you have the right to leave the country for another with fewer evil, evil civil rights. Like Afganistan. I hear they have a very strong religious influence in schools!

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by sbp
"This country's founding fathers believed in the "Separation Of Chuch and State"." Nope thats a misbelief.

Sorry, did we just strip Tommy Jefferson of Founding Father status recently? Why do I never get these memos?!!!

[Grimm]

Originally posted by styleee
...i just have one question to everyone who supports the sign being on a school... how would you feel if a sign was errected that said something like "Pray to Allah" or "dig deep into your potion bags, and we will save our land"? btw, i'm the most unreligous person in the entire world, and as i'm trying to think of something anti-christian to say, my mind is coming up blank. so, i hope u get the point i'm trying to make.
...


I would have very little problem with a sign that said "Allah Bless America" at this point in time.
If our nation hadn't just been attacked I would have mildly dissaproved of the God bless America sign. I would have stated my oppinion to those who asked and then let it drop. If the sigh displayes a cross or other religious symbol, I would also object, today. But what that sign really says is "We are hurting because of the tragedy in NYC and we want it to stop". That is the context of the message. If the sign said "Jesus Saves" I would be pissed as hell about it. But the wording and context of the message are such that I do not beleive they are primarily religious in nature.
This is a poor battle to choose for the ACLU.

I do not like the ACLU. The ACLU does do some good. However, the ACLU would never help me. I am a white male. They also have some strong political leanings I can't agree with.

[topane]

Originally posted by johnnymk
...They can teach witchcraft, evolution and all sorts of secular humanism at my expense...:hmm: You know, my wife's a public school teacher and AFAIK she's never taught anyone witchcraft. And as for evolution, it is a theory, which is why it's called the Theory of Evolution. There is nothing wrong with teaching another point of view (http://www.religioustolerance.org/evolutio.htm). Heck, hundreds of years ago people were threatened with death because they believed the Earth was not the center of the universe or that it was not flat.

[sbp]

Originally posted by pennypinch


Sorry, did we just strip Tommy Jefferson of Founding Father status recently?TJ is a Foiunding Father even if he one of those terrible white men. http://sbp777.homestead.com/files/wink2.gif



Why do I never get these memos?!!! http://sbp777.homestead.com/files/zxdrinkbeer.gif

[sbp]

Originally posted by pennypinch

I sincerely hope you aren't referring to Harry Potter or something.

You have the right not to send your children to a public school. That is your right. You have the right to try and elect people that will reverse the trend of secular government. And you have the right to leave the country for another with fewer evil, evil civil rights. Like Afganistan. I hear they have a very strong religious influence in schools! You have the right not to send your children to a non-government run school. That is your right. You have the right to try and elect people that despise religion. And you have the right to leave the country for another with fewer evil, evil civil rights. Like China. I hear they crack down on religion quite well.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by sbp
TJ is a Foiunding Father even if he one of those terrible white men. http://sbp777.homestead.com/files/wink2.gif


[b]http://sbp777.homestead.com/files/zxdrinkbeer.gif

Right, therefore, at least some of the founding fathers (and definitely one of the most influential) believed in seperation of church and state. Where is the problem here?

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by sbp
You have the right not to send your children to a non-government run school. That is your right. You have the right to try and elect people that despise religion. And you have the right to leave the country for another with fewer evil, evil civil rights. Like China. I hear they crack down on religion quite well. Does anyone else find this totally non-sensical?

Perhaps it is you that is http://sbp777.homestead.com/files/zxdrinkbeer.gif?

:D

[sbp]

Originally posted by pennypinch


Right, therefore, at least some of the founding fathers (and definitely one of the most influential) believed in seperation of church and state. Where is the problem here? As you, and probably everyone who has actually read the constitution knows, there is no mention of "division of church and state" in there at all.

For those of you who haven't yet, the often misquoted "separation of church and state" was found here:

Thomas Jefferson's famous "wall of separation" between church and state comment was made in a letter to a group of Baptist clergymen January 1, 1802 in Danbury, Connecticut, who feared the Congregationalists Church would become the state-sponsored religion. Jefferson assured the Danbury Baptist Association that the First Amendment guaranteed that there would be no establishment of any one denomination over another. It was never intended for our governing bodies to be "separated" from Christianity and its principles. The "wall" was understood as one directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state.

Last I heard, thanks to the many who have worked to pull these few words wildly out of context, over 2/3 of Americans actually believe these words to be in our Constitution.

[Markel]

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by johnnymk
I pay nearly $2000 in property taxes to these Godless institutions called public schools. They can teach witchcraft, evolution and all sorts of secular humanism at my expense. I have no option, I HAVE to pay thses taxes or they will take my home from me. And I don't have any kids!
Where are my rights?

if they were allowing harry potter books and not books that mentioned christianity, you'd have a valid beef. but last i checked, the same school libraries that carry harry potter also carry madeleine l'engle books (a wrinkle in time, etc; highly christian books). the bible is not generally found in grade school libraries, and neither are religious texts of wiccans or satanists or anyone else christians may find unpalatable. i think the treatment is generally pretty equal.

as to evolution: science is science. it can tell us a limited number of things about the physical world. it is a useful way of viewing the world. religion is larger and wholly separate and is not taught in schools. in the case of something about science that directly contradicts someone's strongly held religious belief (count up all the begattin and you find a 6000-some-odd year old earth), i have found in every textbook from grade school through college a brief note something like this: some ppl have a belief called creationism this is a valid belief, but there is no scientific evidence for it, and so it will not be taught in the context of this SCIENCE class. science class teaches science. period. it has no business explaining matters of faith; it is ill-suited to the task.


[i]Originally posted by johnnymk
I can just imagine going through the rubble at The World Trade Center and someone finds the body of an ACLU lawyer with a small flag expressing: "What about Bin Laden's civil rights?" The ACLU sickens me!!

well... that's just your imagination, now, isn't it? if you're going to get sickened over something that springs purely from your own imagination... that's not very rational.

[johnnymk]

Thanks, Markel and sbp for posting the First Ammendment and the subsequent opinions. Sometimes you have to see firsthand the source of what is being discussed instead of theorizing about it.
I really don't see how voluntary prayer, the posting of the Ten Commandments and stating God Bless America violates the Constitution whatsoever.

[attgig]

Originally posted by welfareloser
as to evolution: science is science. it can tell us a limited number of things about the physical world. it is a useful way of viewing the world. religion is larger and wholly separate and is not taught in schools. in the case of something about science that directly contradicts someone's strongly held religious belief (count up all the begattin and you find a 6000-some-odd year old earth), i have found in every textbook from grade school through college a brief note something like this: some ppl have a belief called creationism [insert explanation of creationism here.] this is a valid belief, but there is no scientific evidence for it, and so it will not be taught in the context of this SCIENCE class. science class teaches science. period. it has no business explaining matters of faith; it is ill-suited to the task.



who reads the textbooks anyways...it's the teachers that get the message across, and well, from my experience, my bio teachers have brought people to believe that what they teach little kids in sunday school is wrong.


also, yeah, biblical stuff is actually mentioned in history class for me. But you know what, the TEACHERS pretty much dismiss it...
I had one teacher who actually liked talking about it, but that was American history, not world history, so those discussions were somewhat tangents from our usually conversations.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by att gig



who reads the textbooks anyways...it's the teachers that get the message across, and well, from my experience, my bio teachers have brought people to believe that what they teach little kids in sunday school is wrong.


also, yeah, biblical stuff is actually mentioned in history class for me. But you know what, the TEACHERS pretty much dismiss it...
I had one teacher who actually liked talking about it, but that was American history, not world history, so those discussions were somewhat tangents from our usually conversations.

if they were dismissing "scientific proof" of christian ideas like the age of the earth, etc, they were right. if they want to call it faith, great. if they want to call it science, they are delusional.

if they were pooh-poohing faith, that was wrong. we've established many times that bad teachers SUCK, and there are a LOT of bad teachers out there (i think about 1/3 of the "people you really hate thread" was dedicated to teachers).

but that's no justification to start stepping up religion in schools; no reason to get a religion/anti-religion war going on. sensitivity training might be in order...

and another thought for johnnymk... for someone who dint have much nice to say about the idea of "tolerance," you sure are asking a lot of tolerance out of non-christians for your christian ideas.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by johnnymk
Thanks, Markel and sbp for posting the First Ammendment and the subsequent opinions. Sometimes you have to see firsthand the source of what is being discussed instead of theorizing about it.
I really don't see how voluntary prayer, the posting of the Ten Commandments and stating God Bless America violates the Constitution whatsoever.

Well, the fundamental understanding here is that schools are agents and institutions of the government; any actions undertaken by them are logically linked to that of the government. Therefore, for instance, posting the 10 Commandments is an implicit suggestion that the government endorses it.

The fact is, I think, I'd rather have no religion on school than every religion in school because often ignored by religious folk is that most people in the world do not follow any religion whatsoever. Therefore, their lack of belief is being assaulted by having all of these religious elements in a governmental institution.

It's important to remember that schools are supposed to be places where we learn what is valuable and true. Sorry to say, but I can't count religion as "truth". I am protected from having my children "forcibly" exposed to Christianity.

[LPMiller]

Much like the 'right of privacy', the seperation of church and state is an 'implied' right, that has been support by the supreme court, both conservative and liberal, time and time again.

In fact, many 'rights' are implied, not expressed. It leaves them more open to court interpretation, but doesn't make them invalid in anyway.

Forcing the students to sing god bless america against their will would violate that implied right. Allowing them to sing it because they wanted to is a different thing.

The problem with voluntary prayer is that you can actually do it now, and I promise you at mid terms its done a lot. The extreme left, however, wants that actually made into law, which seems a little like making voluntary sleeping a law. It isn't needed, but it is in fact an attempt to get a wedge into that 'implied' seperation of church and state.

Now pardon me, I have to pull out my 8th grade witchcraft books; I'm trying to evolved my familiar and don't remember the spell. Must be why I only got a C in the class.

[johnnymk]

I am always amazed at how so-called enlightened people hate Christianity and especially Jesus. But the Bible states:

He that believeth on him (Jesus Christ) is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and MEN LOVED DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, BECAUSE THEIR DEEDS WERE EVIL.
For everyone that doeth evil HATETH THE LIGHT, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds be reproved. John 3, 18-20

For the praching of the cross is to them that perish, foolishness; but unto us that are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent
Corinthians 1, 18-19

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by johnnymk
I am always amazed at how so-called enlightened people hate Christianity and especially Jesus. But the Bible states:

He that believeth on him (Jesus Christ) is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and MEN LOVED DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, BECAUSE THEIR DEEDS WERE EVIL.
For everyone that doeth evil HATETH THE LIGHT, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds be reproved. John 3, 18-20

For the praching of the cross is to them that perish, foolishness; but unto us that are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent
Corinthians 1, 18-19 Oh, so now I'm evil?

Now, you'll excuse the pun, but to hell with you. This has nothing to do with what should or should not be on a school. How is this any different from a fanatic Muslim saying that Christians are infidels and that Christians therefore deserve to die? It's just what you believe, it's not contextual truth.

Quoting scripture is often mistaken for thought and reasoned debate. It just makes me chuckle.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by johnnymk
I am always amazed at how so-called enlightened people hate Christianity and especially Jesus.

i am often amazed by how ppl can take any degree of disagreement with their faith and paint it as hatred. unreasonable. you're not even listening if you're calling the dissenting opinions here hatred.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by welfareloser


i am often amazed by how ppl can take any degree of disagreement with their faith and paint it as hatred. unreasonable. you're not even listening if you're calling the dissenting opinions here hatred.

Oh, no, he's right. I hate Christianity, and especially Jesus. Just the other day, some nun came up to me on the street (and by came up, I mean, stood on the side of the sidewalk). Well, she was giving me quite the sassy look, so I pushed her down and shouted "Save THAT, Jesus!". And then I threw a dreidl I had saved for the occasion at her, asked Allah to bless her, consulted an oracle, and sent up a Shinto prayer.

Because I'm a ****ing heathen like that. And apprently, I'm condemned because I believe something else! Yay!

If you axe me, and no-one is, Christianity sure has a lot of hateful elements in it. Imagine, benign ol' me, sentenced to an eternity of hellfire and stuff poking into my butt because I'm not diggy down with God. Sheesh!

[sbp]

In regards to schools there is something that can be done to resolve this issue but some won't like it.

[sbp]

Originally posted by LPM
Much like the 'right of privacy', the seperation of church and state is an 'implied' right, that has been support by the supreme court, both conservative and liberal, time and time again.

In fact, many 'rights' are implied, not expressed. It leaves them more open to court interpretation, but doesn't make them invalid in anyway.

Forcing the students to sing god bless america against their will would violate that implied right. Allowing them to sing it because they wanted to is a different thing.

The problem with voluntary prayer is that you can actually do it now, and I promise you at mid terms its done a lot. The extreme left, however, wants that actually made into law, which seems a little like making voluntary sleeping a law. It isn't needed, but it is in fact an attempt to get a wedge into that 'implied' seperation of church and state.

Now pardon me, I have to pull out my 8th grade witchcraft books; I'm trying to evolved my familiar and don't remember the spell. Must be why I only got a C in the class. How many implied rights are in the Constitution? Isn't this whole "implied rights" thing a cover for "well its not in the Constitution but we want to be so its in there" act? What is to stop some court from claiming more implied rights? Where are the limits on that power?

Is it a violation of rights when a student is stopped from bringing his favorite book into school and the book happens to be the bible?

[Windsor]

Personally,I think it shouldn't matter if someone wanted to start up a Satanist club, if they would allow a Christian Bible club, any other club should be allowed since the schools SHOULD be open to any belief, if they some kids wanted to start a cult, why not? As long as its not involving criminal activities, of course.
Are we not allowed to quote the president? Would it still be against the Constituion to place a big sign that says "God Bless America" -President Bush.

I've always wondered about the pledge of allegiance. It does mention God in there "one nation under God..." Why is it is still allowed?

[Nija]

I, personally, disagree with the sign being posted on a school building. I feel it promotes that the teachings of "God" are promoted at a government run facility, a place where it has no business.

RE the satanist club at school: most of these die because all clubs (ok in my school, i'm guessing about others tho) need a teacher as a "sponsor" not always someone who supports it, but someone who will let it meet in their class, and (hopefully) support. What teacher that wants to keep their job is gonna support a bunch of kids intrested in any form of satanism (granted their is only one form of satanism, but that is besides the point).

I had a friend that wore a Marilyn Manson shirt to school. black shirt. right in the middle it said 'Beware of God." he was suspended from school. we went to public school. is this right? hell no. his mother, went to the school board and said if u don't take this off my child's record i will sue u. they had no arguement. they let kids walk around with pendents of faith (crosses, star of david, etc.), hell i knew a few kids that had the I *heart symbol* jesus sweatshirt, but they never got suspended. anyways, point he wore the shirt for a week (hehe w00p) it was a nice victory.

Nij@