Taliban: a new low, where's the Arab outrage??

[fakesurfers]

I've heard that the Taliban are using women and children as human shields. Apparently, they are hiding in Mosques and Schools. Where's the outrage from the governments of the Middle East. This isnt the US Army saying this, by the way, but refugee reports from Pakistan.

[Jihforce]

[jerry mcguire]show me the link! SHOW ME THE LINK!!![/jerry mcguire]

[fakesurfers]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/646994.asp

[Jihforce]

Damn, that's just so messed up. :shake:

[zenbooty]

How is that messed up? Pretty smart, if you ask me. The term "Human Shield" as used here is dripping with propaganda. Its not like they're dragging women and children out onto the battlefield. Their just hiding in the cities amongst the locals. Sorta like a lot of American soldiers hid in attics and barns during the revolution.

[pennypinch]

Why the hell should we be bombing schools and mosques in the first bloody place?

[Grimm]

Originally posted by zenbooty
Sorta like a lot of American soldiers hid in attics and barns during the revolution.

Point of order... The British didn't have bombers, missiles, or even chain guns back then. The American soldiers were not endangering the civilians to British bombing runs.
Also, the American soldiers were militia and didn't have anywhere else to stay!

[fakesurfers]

Did you read the article, Zen? Look at it this way, if the US stockpiled weapons inside an Afghan mosque, we would be excoriated throughout the Middle East. Isn't bin Laden ostensibly fighting because of all the children 'killed' in Iraq by sanctions? What kind of 'man' would put soldiers in a school? What it says to me is that the Taliban thinks their soldiers are more valuable than their children.

:disa: :disa: those punks

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by zenbooty
How is that messed up? Pretty smart, if you ask me. The term "Human Shield" as used here is dripping with propaganda. Its not like they're dragging women and children out onto the battlefield. Their just hiding in the cities amongst the locals. Sorta like a lot of American soldiers hid in attics and barns during the revolution.

Its messed up because they are involving civilians. That's why. Sure, that's smart, but its always the civilians who get hurt in the end.

[zenbooty]

Who ever said war was moral? Since when are there "rules" to warfare? The idea that wreaking death upon each other can somehow be done in a fair and palatable and justifiable manner is a crock! You think our side is behaving like angels? Of course not. We're torturing prisoners! (http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2001/10/24/dead/index.html)You just don't get to hear much about THAT part. Not till the exposes come out 10 years after this mess, when the officers in the know start retiring.

This is WAR, guys. Welcome to it. Don't take the paper's so seriously, and think about all those people a few weeks ago who were clamoring to "kick some ass," like this was going to be a kegger.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by zenbooty
Who ever said war was moral? Since when are there "rules" to warfare? The idea that wreaking death upon each other can somehow be done in a fair and palatable and justifiable manner is a crock! You think our side is behaving like angels? Of course not. We're torturing prisoners! (http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2001/10/24/dead/index.html)You just don't get to hear much about THAT part. Not till the exposes come out 10 years after this mess, when the officers in the know start retiring.

This is WAR, guys. Welcome to it. Don't take the paper's so seriously, and think about all those people a few weeks ago who were clamoring to "kick some ass," like this was going to be a kegger.
Aw, ya beat me to it.

The idea that battle or war is in some way valorous or noble has gone the way of the club or war boomerang.

[El Scorcho]

Originally posted by zenbooty
You think our side is behaving like angels? Of course not. We're torturing prisoners!

Buddy, we aint torturing innocent people. They are. Atleast were sticking to some "rules" to war. Were targeting (torturing) the people were fighting.

No, there arent ne rules to war, but there are some moral guidlines its typically civil to follow, and one of these is to not kill innocent civilians.

[El Scorcho]

Originally posted by pennypinch
Why the hell should we be bombing schools and mosques in the first bloody place?

:rolleyes:

THATS WHY THEYRE HIDING IN THEM!

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by zenbooty
Who ever said war was moral? Since when are there "rules" to warfare? The idea that wreaking death upon each other can somehow be done in a fair and palatable and justifiable manner is a crock! You think our side is behaving like angels? Of course not. We're torturing prisoners! (http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2001/10/24/dead/index.html)You just don't get to hear much about THAT part. Not till the exposes come out 10 years after this mess, when the officers in the know start retiring.

This is WAR, guys. Welcome to it. Don't take the paper's so seriously, and think about all those people a few weeks ago who were clamoring to "kick some ass," like this was going to be a kegger.

Thanks for your Reality 101 lecture. But you're missing the point I made. I said its messed up because it is. Just because its reality doesn't mean it can't be a "messed up" reality.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by El Scorcho


Buddy, we aint torturing innocent people.

If these people are guilty, charge them with something more substantive than "holding them on immigration charges". If they're guilty, you should be scare up enough evidence to charge these people with something. We've jailed over 800 people in connection with this thing. OK, so maybe some of them were involved in this, but the unreasonable and, dare I say it, illegal imprisonment of some of these people seems to be decidedly totalitarian in nature.

Deeming someone "guilty" out of hand...you ever hear of something called "due process" in the Constitution?

[El Scorcho]

obviously we didnt put these people in jail because we felt like putting random people in jail:rolleyes: .

On the other hand maybe we should allow potential terrorist to roam the streets america free to nuke, bomb, shoot, kill, destroy whatever they want.... sound good to you?

[mojo]

Originally posted by zenbooty
Who ever said war was moral? Since when are there "rules" to warfare? The idea that wreaking death upon each other can somehow be done in a fair and palatable and justifiable manner is a crock! You think our side is behaving like angels? Of course not. We're torturing prisoners! (http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2001/10/24/dead/index.html)You just don't get to hear much about THAT part. Not till the exposes come out 10 years after this mess, when the officers in the know start retiring.

This is WAR, guys. Welcome to it. Don't take the paper's so seriously, and think about all those people a few weeks ago who were clamoring to "kick some ass," like this was going to be a kegger.

no matter how you slice it, it's still messed up

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by El Scorcho
obviously we didnt put these people in jail because we felt like putting random people in jail:rolleyes: .

On the other hand maybe we should allow potential terrorist to roam the streets america free to nuke, bomb, shoot, kill, destroy whatever they want.... sound good to you?

Good lord, potential terrorists! Well, throw them all in the clink. And since young black males commit a disproportionate amount of crime, we should lock all young black males up too. And while we're at it, why don't we put everyone over 60 in jail too, since they're potential menaces on the road; can't be having potential manslaughterers drivin' around can we?

Since when did we start arresting people for being "potential" criminals? God knows I've contemplated breaking the law before. I suppose I should turn myself in?

[El Scorcho]

Originally posted by pennypinch


Good lord, potential terrorists! Well, throw them all in the clink. And since young black males commit a disproportionate amount of crime, we should lock all young black males up too. And while we're at it, why don't we put everyone over 60 in jail too, since they're potential menaces on the road; can't be having potential manslaughterers drivin' around can we?

Since when did we start arresting people for being "potential" criminals? God knows I've contemplated breaking the law before. I suppose I should turn myself in?

if you think that by "potential terrorists" i mean arabs... wouldnt a lot more people being accused of terrorist being put in jail? Im sure there was a good cause, e.g. terrorist manuals and books and they had anthrax labs or whatever... my point is we didnt just go out and arrest people without a cause.

We gotta arrest these people BEFORE they kill another thousand people... we aint got time to be f*ckin around trying to see if they really ARE guilty.

[fakesurfers]

I value your opinions, but my question was a little more specific. Wartime tends to appeal to the lowest common denominator, leading to a race to the bottom in reprehensible behavior.

My question is: where is the outrage from the rest of the Middle East? Isnt there a president or autocrat or imam in the whole region that will speak out against something like that? Supposedly these people are fighting a holy war...I doubt if the Qu'ran mentions taking women and children down with you in a losing cause.

Most rational societies would protect their civilians, while these guys see profit in losing them. It makes fascism look like an episode of 'Barney.' Do Saudi Arabia, Iran, the Palestinians, or even so-called moderate states like Egypt condemn this behavior? Their silence is deafening. :disa:

[hapoo]

Originally posted by fakesurfers
Do Saudi Arabia, Iran, the Palestinians, or even so-called moderate states like Egypt condemn this behavior? Their silence is deafening. :disa:


Most of those countries have their own problems and dont have the luxury of taking care of problems like the US. But dont take me wrong, they are NOT silent! you just can't hear it from half way across the globe. Iran for one has condeemned the taliban and for a long time has been trying to get rid of them. As america plans to set up a new government for afganistan, iran has repeatedly told them NOT to incorperate the taliban.

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by El Scorcho
Buddy, we aint torturing innocent people. They are.
ARE YOU REALLY THIS BLIND!!!????
People are being nabbed and held on "immigration charges" for no good reason that the government will make public, so we can safely assume that they have no solid reason. Why else all the secrecy, huh? They're panicking and throwing out the ol' arab nets and trawling for whatever scraps of info they can find. Lawyers representing some of these people have already mentioned maltreatment, and now one is "found" dead in his cell. Yet you remain unconvinced that these individuals are being tortured? Wake up and smell the toast burning!

Atleast were sticking to some "rules" to war. Were targeting (torturing) the people were fighting.
There are no "rules" to war. People are killing or trying not to be killed. There are no points for honor and chivalry. You either kill or die. And to say we're somehow fighting cleaner is BS. You don't seem to comprehend the concept of "fog of war." You see, right now you are receiving absolutely no accurate information about what is really going on. Not in Afghanistan. Not in D.C. Not in NYC. Not in Florida. All you get is what you see on TV or hear on the radio, or read in the paper or on the net. And all they report anymore is what the Federal and Military PR flacks are willing to dish out, which is going to be nothing but LIES LIES LIES intended not to inform you, but to keep you supporting the war effort.

No, there arent ne rules to war, but there are some moral guidlines its typically civil to follow, and one of these is to not kill innocent civilians.
We already have, in this war and many others. Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam, Thailand, the list goes on. Innocent civilians have been killed en masse in many wars. This idea that there are moral guidelines to warfare is something we read about in fantasy novels. It doesn't exist in reality. So now are still pumped up for the battle now? Are you weak-kneed with anticipation for all the bloodshed that we are going to get to witness. Won't it be fun to watch all those arabs get blasted to the stone ages? Are you getting my drift yet?

[mojo]

Originally posted by zenbooty

ARE YOU REALLY THIS BLIND!!!???? <snip>
i agree that the US is not innocent of a lot of stuff. i know there is a lot more that goes on than any of us know.

i fail to see how any of this makes what the taliban is doing right now any less than completely messed up :|

[mojo]

Originally posted by hapoo



Most of those countries have their own problems and dont have the luxury of taking care of problems like the US. But dont take me wrong, they are NOT silent! you just can't hear it from half way across the globe. Iran for one has condeemned the taliban and for a long time has been trying to get rid of them. As america plans to set up a new government for afganistan, iran has repeatedly told them NOT to incorperate the taliban.
you beat me to it....
of course i dunno first hand, so it's better coming from you anyways

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by fakesurfers
I've heard that the Taliban are using women and children as human shields. Apparently, they are hiding in Mosques and Schools. Where's the outrage from the governments of the Middle East. This isnt the US Army saying this, by the way, but refugee reports from Pakistan.


Give me a break that's nothing new, the muslims have been doing that for ages.
How about when The afghanis were fighting the Russians, there were mine fields in afghanistan... And by Muslim law a woman has to follow the man, guess what the muslim men did???? If you haven't guessed yet, they told the women to go in front of them, so if the woman blew up it's not a problem, whatever saves their ****ing ass.

I say **** em.:angry:

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by mojorisin

i agree that the US is not innocent of a lot of stuff. i know there is a lot more that goes on than any of us know.

i fail to see how any of this makes what the taliban is doing right now any less than completely messed up :|

What's so messed up about hiding where its safest? The point I'm trying to make is that pointing at the Taliban in judgement for their wartime activities is being the pot calling the kettle black. And how do you even know any of these stories are really true? Because the U.S. military says so? Because the propaganda press says so?

[mojo]

Originally posted by zenbooty


What's so messed up about hiding where its safest? The point I'm trying to make is that pointing at the Taliban in judgement for their wartime activities is being the pot calling the kettle black. And how do you even know any of these stories are really true? Because the U.S. military says so? Because the propaganda press says so?
well...ok about the propaganda press thing. but that applies to just about any story that i can't see for myself, let alone experience. i actually question a lot of these things, and in this case i should have said "if it's true.....". or rather it should be a given, because a disclaimer before every remark could become tiresome.

so if it's true, it's messed up for the people whose lives are in danger. if you were the one these people were hiding with, you just might think it's messed up that they have such an impact on your life. i know that i would. or maybe you would try to move out of said situation before the sh*t hit the fan....in which case you might think it's messed up that you have to move because of these as*holes. it's messed up because they are imposing their will on others. it's messed up because people may die or get seriously injured because of their actions. it's messed up because people are sh*tting their pants just at the sight of them.

you might think it's fine and dandy, but what this group has done and the way they have been acting is pretty messed up. sure, it's war...but war is messed up. like you said, it's not a kegger. and our role in this is a reaction to their attack on our soil....so it's so totally not anything like the pot calling the kettle black.

[brainsmile]

sigh... this world sucks... time to move

[southernbelle]

Fakesurfers originally asked "Where's the outrage from the governments of the Middle East?" This is a different question than "Should they do it?"

Are you saying that there should not be any public acknowledgement by foreign governments of outrage because it is a wise-war-behavior thing to do?

You all make good points - war is bad, the US has suspended freedoms for at least some people, etc.

I've read a couple of interesting OPINION pieces in the news - consider the sources, please. They contain explosive, even racist ideas, but they do make good points:

AMERICA-BASHING U.N. SHOULD GET LOST
By ANDREA PEYSER - NEW YORK POST
September 21, 2001 -- IT'S time for the United Nations to get the hell out of town.
And take with it CNN war slut Christiane Amanpour.
Also, short ABC comedian Bill "those bombers were brave" Maher. More on that in a sec.
The U.N. building towers over the East River like a giant middle finger aimed at our shores.
The once-shiny beacon of peace has devolved into a cancer, where all manner of anti-American lunacy is hatched.
Today, the U.N. functions as an international megaphone through which every Third World dictatorship vents its fury at our way of life.
Though technically not on American soil, the United Nations clogs our city like sewage.
It lustily sucks up our police, our water, our sanitation services while its personnel jam city streets by parking illegally, and break all manner of traffic and criminal law with a get-out-of-jail-free card known as diplomatic immunity.
Now, the United Nations is serving yet another function: It has become the quietest place on earth.
Since two planes toppled the World Trade Center in a fiery blast of terror, the United Nations has been mute.
Where are the diplomats we housed and fed, whose transgressions we excused, whose libels we endured, now that the nearby turf is in ruins?
Oh, yes, Secretary General Kofi Annan has been on television in a hard hat, grabbing network face time by glancing, moist-eyed, at the ruins of the Twin Towers.
But where are the resolutions? The outrage? The deep, heartfelt expressions of regret?
Not here. Not now. And certainly not for us.
So, the United Nations doesn't like this nation? Fine. Don't let the door hit you on the butt as you get the hell out.
Go home to your police states and smarmy European capitals.
"The U.N. provides cover almost the same way the Taliban does," observes Harvey Kushner, an author and terrorism expert.
"It serves as the laboratory, the linchpin for legitimizing incendiary rhetoric," Kushner said.
Following the initial shock, America-bashing, I'm distressed to report, is going full throttle.
And not just in the foreign media - though there's plenty of that - but right here, at home, in the guise of "analysis."
Explaining why the Arab world hates us, CNN's Amanpour spewed her bias in a live conversation with news blonde Paula Zahn:
"The issue of the United States' close alliance with Israel, the perception that the United States does not care as much about the suffering of Muslims in Palestine, in what they call Palestine, is a key reason for the anti-Americanism on the rise in the Middle East."
I wonder what her Jewish in-laws think.
Short comedian Bill Maher was even more rabid.
On "Politically Incorrect," Maher declared the United States cowardly for "lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away" at Iraq. In the next breath, he praised the bravery of the trade center bombers.
"Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it's not cowardly," gushed Maher.
He later insisted our government is cowardly, not our soldiers. Thanks.
The truth is the monsters who attacked us hate not just the United States and Israel. They hate wealthy Saudi Arabia. They hate non-fundamentalist Muslims. They treat women like slaves, children like property, and dream of romping with virgins in paradise.
Everyone with a gripe against Israel or America has joined the orgy in the guise of "analysis." Analyze this, you bastards.

*****************

Perspectives - NEW YORK PRESS
Carol Iannone

Homeland Insecurity

How did it happen? How did the United States of America, bastion of exceptionalism, exempt from the curse of history, blessedly free of the atavistic hatreds of the old world–how did it become the scene of one of the most hideously bedeviled conflicts of all time?

Quite simply, it happened because America lost its grasp of its own historic character, and embraced "diversity" as a national goal. In the name of equality and nondiscrimination we invited mass immigration from every part of the globe, and made no demands on the newcomers to become Americans. In fact, we gave up our American core, adopted multiculturalism and declared all cultures equal. We invited the new groups to celebrate themselves while we cravenly permitted libelous denigration of our own past. Like fools we prated that diversity is our strength, when common sense and all of history tell us that strength comes from unity.

Absolute nondiscrimination meant we no longer enforced standards, made judgments, distinguished between good and evil, friend and foe. We grew lazy, stupid and careless–about our borders, about national security, even about previous terrorist attacks against us. We worried over our "hate crimes" and our "racial profiling," while men resided in our midst who seethed with murderous fury even against our children and plotted our destruction. Now we have a fifth column, fear further assaults and labor under a draconian security regime that is changing the nature of our lives.

As we suddenly reawaken to feelings and allegiances we were formerly too timid to assert, we also wait for the millions of Muslims in America to express their loyalty, their patriotism, their love of our land. A ruthlessly illuminating article in The New York Times, based on "extended conversations" with teenagers at Al Noor, a private Islamic school in Brooklyn, splashes cold water on that hope, however, especially when we learn that the sentiments expressed "are similar to those posted by Muslim Americans on the numerous Internet chat rooms and message boards about Islam."

The Al Noor students see America as the "one place where Muslims are free to be themselves," yet at the same time they "cannot be shaken from the conviction that America is intrinsically anti-Muslim." They told the Times reporter, quite unself-consciously it appears, that they empathize with "the young Muslims around the world who profess hatred for America and Americans."

Some said they would abandon America to "support any leader who they decided was fighting for Islam." They fretted about "hatred" and negativity directed toward Muslims in our culture, although they gave no examples, but showed little feeling for the catastrophic suffering inflicted in the name of their religion on Sept. 11.

In fact, many of them refuse to believe that Osama bin Laden or any Muslim had anything to do with the attack because, they say, such behavior violates the precepts of Islam–which is tantamount to saying no Muslim can ever do wrong. Despite numerous concerned phone calls and offers of assistance to the school from the surrounding non-Muslim community, these young people harbor wholly unfounded suspicions of a backlash against Muslims, though, as they admit, none of them has experienced any form of harassment.

While the anti-American animus in this immigrant community is deeply troubling, are not these young people reflecting back to us the very attitudes we told them to adopt–a sense of entitlement without any sense of duty, and the right to protest "bias" and "hatred" without any corresponding responsibility to show loyalty to the country? Like mainstream students, the Muslim youngsters are allowed and encouraged to indulge in blatant denial of facts, to flout rational standards of truth, and to be ignorant of American history–indeed, they seem to know nothing of our recent efforts to help Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo, Somalia and elsewhere.

Also, like many mainstream students, these young Muslim Americans haven’t the foggiest notion of how our country’s freedoms are secured and maintained. They look forward to prosperous lives in the U.S. as doctors, lawyers and teachers, yet, according to the Times, their "ideal society would follow Islamic law and make no separation between religion and state."

It’s often been said that America is not a nation in the traditional sense but only an "idea," and that therefore anyone can become an American by simply signing on to our values. Having given up our historic particularity, however, we don’t even bother teaching the idea anymore, do we? The truth is that the idea of America is nothing if it is not rooted in a sense of identity, of peoplehood, of belonging. As C.S. Lewis might put it, it’s not syllogisms that sustain us in battle, but sentiments, the sentiments we Americans refused to convey, the beliefs we refused to impart, the legacy we have so ignobly betrayed.

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by zenbooty


What's so messed up about hiding where its safest? The point I'm trying to make is that pointing at the Taliban in judgement for their wartime activities is being the pot calling the kettle black. And how do you even know any of these stories are really true? Because the U.S. military says so? Because the propaganda press says so?

I'll repeat it again, hiding among civilians endangers innocent lives. THAT is messed up. I don't care if its US Armies doing it, or Taliban Armies. I make no distinction. That act is still messed up. Sure, there are no rules in War, the only goal is to win by all means necessary. But that is why War is bad, War is cruel. As Mojorisin and I are trying to say is that just because there's a reason why they are doing it, doesn't mean its not a messed up.

As for the truth of it, I don't really know. I'm not there to witness it first hand so I take everything with a grain of salt. Do I think that these people are doing this for sure? Maybe, I don't really know. But if they are, THAT is messed up.
I don't want to repeat what mojorisin said about believing the press. But we pretty much share the same idea.

[fakesurfers]

Originally posted by southernbelle
Fakesurfers originally asked "Where's the outrage from the governments of the Middle East?" This is a different question than "Should they do it?"

No one has yet answered my question. Show me one news report of a Middle East Civil or Religious leader condemning a specific attack. I, for one, prefer the openhanded disdain of Iran to the two-faced 'friendship' of Saudi Arabia.

Zen: Sure we dont get the whole story, but you can't keep parts of the truth from getting out. Even the Taliban would tacitly admit we are not trying to harm civilians. Why would they draw such attention to accidents that do hurt civilians? It's good to have skepticism of the government/media/military borg, but don't think it excuses you from thinking critically about the situation.

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by fakesurfers
No one has yet answered my question. Show me one news report of a Middle East Civil or Religious leader condemning a specific attack. I, for one, prefer the openhanded disdain of Iran to the two-faced 'friendship' of Saudi Arabia.

Why should they be outraged!!?? Why should they stick their necks out for us? What have we done for them, besides contribute to the destabilization of their lands? They certainly did express outrage after the Sept. 11 bombings. What more do you want? What's so outrageous about the enemy military hiding where its safe to avoid having cruise missles and bombs dropped on their heads? Its like your saying, "how dare they not expose themselves out in the open for us to shred?" Saudi Arabia is our ally, not our puppet. They have to live out in that world, with their ARABIC citizens, not us. You think Arabic leaders should go out on a limb on the US's behalf? We don't exactly have a good history backing them up when they have problems with their people for it later. That's how this whole Afghanistan thing got started, remember? If you think diplomacy means everybody peacefully bowing to U.S. interests at our whim, then maybe its you who needs to start THINKING CRITICALLY! :rolleyes:

[hapoo]

Originally posted by Burzhui



Give me a break that's nothing new, the muslims have been doing that for ages.
How about when The afghanis were fighting the Russians, there were mine fields in afghanistan... And by Muslim law a woman has to follow the man, guess what the muslim men did???? If you haven't guessed yet, they told the women to go in front of them, so if the woman blew up it's not a problem, whatever saves their ****ing ass.

I say **** em.:angry:


Might i ask where you heard/read this? I for one WAS THERE when Iran was at war with Iraq. I have seen and heard what was going on with my own eyes and ears.

[fakesurfers]

Originally posted by zenbooty


Why should they be outraged!!?? Why should they stick their necks out for us? What have we done for them, besides contribute to the destabilization of their lands?

They should be outraged because they are human beings. They should condemn behavior that is immoral and dishonorable because it is the right thing to do. What have we contributed?

Let's see:

Kuwait is a country and not a province right now.
Saudi Arabia gets access to our best military hardware.
Egypt cashes those 3 billion dollar yearly checks.
(there's more if you would like)

Their lands are destabilized because most of those countries are run by tin pot dictators. Guess what country (in the Middle East) has the closest thing to a republic? Iran.



They certainly did express outrage after the Sept. 11 bombings. What more do you want? What's so outrageous about the enemy military hiding where its safe to avoid having cruise missles and bombs dropped on their heads? Its like your saying, "how dare they not expose themselves out in the open for us to shred?"

Isnt this country full of caves? Why do they need to hide in mosques and schools? Why hasnt one Mideast leader come out and 'said these guys don't represent Islam?' Why hasn't one imam issued a fatwa saying that it isn't OK to put your children in harm's to save your own skin? Why are they silent?


Saudi Arabia is our ally, not our puppet. They have to live out in that world, with their ARABIC citizens, not us.

We made a Faustian bargain with Fahd a long time ago. Unfortunately, we are again in the position of supporting a dictatorship. Large amounts of money are coming from Saudi benefactors to Osama. Why can't they stop the flow of contributions, unless they dont really want to.


You think Arabic leaders should go out on a limb on the US's behalf? We don't exactly have a good history backing them up when they have problems with their people for it later. That's how this whole Afghanistan thing got started, remember?

I think they should go out on a limb and condemn what is wrong and do what is right. I think everyone agrees that blowing up the WTC is wrong. Sending Anthrax is wrong. Why is no one in the Middle East doing what (most) North American muslims have done: namely, that this has nothing to do with Islam and we do not support this and the perpetrators should be dealt with harshly.


If you think diplomacy means everybody peacefully bowing to U.S. interests at our whim, then maybe its you who needs to start THINKING CRITICALLY! :rolleyes:

For the record, I am thinking critically. I've done a lot of research. I probably know more about the Middle East than most non-Arab Americans. Diplomacy is about pure self-interest. Looking out for your people requires more than that. Pure self-interest would suggest that the US should just seize the Saudi oil fields. The difference is that it wouldn't be right.

Why are you defending using women and children being used as shields?
Why do you think it's OK to hide soldiers in a mosque?
Why is it all right to cache weapons in the few schools that they do have?

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by hapoo



Might i ask where you heard/read this? I for one WAS THERE when Iran was at war with Iraq. I have seen and heard what was going on with my own eyes and ears.


The guys who came back told of many similar things like this.

and what does iraq and iran have to do with this

[pennypinch]

Why should they do the above? Because it's, strategically, the only way for them to have any freaking chance of survival. Regardless of whether the smart bomb camera films are being produced in a soundstage in Burbank, we clearly, CLEARLY have a technological and numerical advantage in this conflict. If I was a leader in the Taliban military, I think I'd quickly realize that we have no hope in hell of winning this by going toe to toe. Hell, we don't have a chance by fighting mountain guerilla warfare. The only chance they'd have is to draw American fighters into urban settings. That means having your troops...you got it! IN THE CITY. And keeping them alive is a side priority.

The best way to do so is to hide them in places the enemy is afraid to attack. In times past, that was a fortified stronghold or fortress: enemies were afraid to attack it for fear or loss of life. American strategists are afraid to attack schools and non-military targets because of the public relations backlash. The words have changed, the strategy has not.

[Burzhui]

They have a better chance of winning than you think.... if you think that USA's military is hell yea the best in all the galaxy.. you are mistaken buddy.

Russia 20th Century: said ohh yea bitches we can control you, we are bigger and stronger.... what happened there???

England 19th Century: ohh yea bitches you are ours... what happened there?


USA (if we f*ck up and don't bomb them to kingdom come): Oh yea ritaliation full speed, you asses are ours ==> ground troops in afghanistan ==> major losses ==> uprising ==> USA GETS F*CKED.

Learn from History man, kill the ****ers or you can say that we lost right now

[fakesurfers]

Originally posted by hapoo



Most of those countries have their own problems and dont have the luxury of taking care of problems like the US. But dont take me wrong, they are NOT silent! you just can't hear it from half way across the globe. Iran for one has condeemned the taliban and for a long time has been trying to get rid of them. As america plans to set up a new government for afganistan, iran has repeatedly told them NOT to incorperate the taliban.

Youre right, Iran has condemned the Taliban from day one. Mostly because of the difference of their sect (Sunni vs. Shi'ite). If anything good comes from this whole situation, it could be a thaw of our relations with Iran. As to the Iran-Iraq war, that one was nasty. It makes the current atrocities look like Chutes and Ladders.

Where are all the moderate Islamicists in the Middle East? Did they all emigrate?

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by DarkFury

"ritaliation" huh? Today must be THE day...

(Throws dictionary out the window...)

Damn you, spelling POlice :)
I refuse to change it out of principle :P

[mojo]

some of us are outraged. some of us think it's just another part of war. well, just out of curiosity...should we not be outraged by the attack on the wtc? after all...terrorism has no rule book that says what is fair or not. they did the most damage and got the most attention that they could with the resources they had....so from that stanpoint it was smart! yet we are outraged, because we are dealing with human life here. some things just should never be done. ever.

of course this is not the best example, because there is arab outrage regarding that incident. but the example is more along the lines of why there should be outrage. sure, it's strategic...but as a great philosopher once wrote, "a rat's ass i do not give." it was wrong, and still messed up. just like the current events- wrong, and messed up.

[hapoo]

Originally posted by fakesurfers


Youre right, Iran has condemned the Taliban from day one. Mostly because of the difference of their sect (Sunni vs. Shi'ite).


Its true Iran doesn't get along too well with other middle eastern countries cause of the Sunni Shi'ite issue... but this one goes way beyond those differences. The Taliban have distorted the religion too much what with their unjust policies towards women, electronics, etc. and their general harshness.

[El Scorcho]

Originally posted by zenbooty

ARE YOU REALLY THIS BLIND!!!????
People are being nabbed and held on "immigration charges" for no good reason that the government will make public, so we can safely assume that they have no solid reason. Why else all the secrecy, huh? They're panicking and throwing out the ol' arab nets and trawling for whatever scraps of info they can find. Lawyers representing some of these people have already mentioned maltreatment, and now one is "found" dead in his cell. Yet you remain unconvinced that these individuals are being tortured? Wake up and smell the toast burning!

i already said this wasnt exactly a good thing but i also said they had some good reasons for arresting these people. Now if YOU know how to run a country better... why dont you go be president because this aint no PERFECT world. Maybe some of these techniques dont appeal to you but sorry, i dont want another sept 11 ok?



Originally posted by zenbooty

There are no "rules" to war. People are killing or trying not to be killed. There are no points for honor and chivalry. You either kill or die. And to say we're somehow fighting cleaner is BS. You don't seem to comprehend the concept of "fog of war." You see, right now you are receiving absolutely no accurate information about what is really going on. Not in Afghanistan. Not in D.C. Not in NYC. Not in Florida. All you get is what you see on TV or hear on the radio, or read in the paper or on the net. And all they report anymore is what the Federal and Military PR flacks are willing to dish out, which is going to be nothing but LIES LIES LIES intended not to inform you, but to keep you supporting the war effort.

i already said theres no rules to war. Second... im sure youre like the friggen president and you know just EVERYTHING there is to know about this war. No, i dont think everything on the news is true, and no i dont know everything, but neither do you. Are you in afgansitan, are you running this country? If you think you are sooooo smart on whats going on... why dont you (1) tell us HOW you know all this and (2) enlighten us oh all knowing master.





In conclusion, yes im glad that were finally getting rid of this terrorist sh*t. I dont want more innocent americans involved in more of that stupid ass fundamentalist crap. How can you even call yourself an american? DO you support the taliban and the terrorists and all this other crap thats going on?

If it wasnt for america and the american army your ass would probably be in a pile of rubble right now.

[mojo]

Originally posted by hapoo



Its true Iran doesn't get along too well with other middle eastern countries cause of the Sunni Shi'ite issue... but this one goes way beyond those differences. The Taliban have distorted the religion too much what with their unjust policies towards women, electronics, etc. and their general harshness.
...and they smell funny, too, dammit :hehehmm:

[hapoo]

Originally posted by mojorisin

...and they smell funny, too, dammit :hehehmm:


:hmm: can't argue with that.

[Kenas]

Originally posted by fakesurfers


No one has yet answered my question. Show me one news report of a Middle East Civil or Religious leader condemning a specific attack. I, for one, prefer the openhanded disdain of Iran to the two-faced 'friendship' of Saudi Arabia.

Zen: Sure we dont get the whole story, but you can't keep parts of the truth from getting out. Even the Taliban would tacitly admit we are not trying to harm civilians. Why would they draw such attention to accidents that do hurt civilians? It's good to have skepticism of the government/media/military borg, but don't think it excuses you from thinking critically about the situation.

You are right man, they did not condemn, and the thing is that most of these countries were very happy of what has happened in NYC. The only reason they pretend to care is the scare of the retaliation. Never heard either one of those countries accusing Taliban or Bin Laden in what has happened. The Arabic TV network Al Jazeera, (which is viewed through out most of the Islamic world), refers to the terrorists that hijacked the plain as martyrs. And they call them selves unbiased TV. (See interview with Al Jazeera representative in NY on FOXNews, Wednesday). After she (the representative) ran out of ways of answering to the asked questions she decided to blame Israel. And actually, the most, Arabic countries, have done, is to point all the blame on Israel (I guess the State of Israel is too democratic for Mid-east).

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by El Scorcho


i already said this wasnt exactly a good thing but i also said they had some good reasons for arresting these people. Now if YOU know how to run a country better... why dont you go be president because this aint no PERFECT world. Maybe some of these techniques dont appeal to you but sorry, i dont want another sept 11 ok?

In conclusion, yes im glad that were finally getting rid of this terrorist sh*t. I dont want more innocent americans involved in more of that stupid ass fundamentalist crap. How can you even call yourself an american?

If the obviously un-American things that are happening in this very country don't bother you, then I contend you have no idea what it is to be American in the first place. Obviuosly, no-one wants a repeat of the World Trade Center episode, but the prevention thereof must be done in ways upon which generations of Americans have agreed. Just throwing "suspected terrorists" in the clink is so McCarthy-esque, it hurts.

[southernbelle]

I know these are long - apologies up front:

October 26, 2001

FOREIGN AFFAIRS - NEW YORK TIMES

We Are All Alone

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

So let me see if I've got this all straight now: Pakistan will allow us to use its bases Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays — provided we bomb only Taliban whose names begin with Omar and who don't have cousins in the Pakistani secret service. India is with us on Tuesdays and Fridays, provided it can shell Pakistani forces around Kashmir all other days. Egypt is with us on Sundays, provided we don't tell anyone and provided we never mention that we give the Egyptians $2 billion a year in aid. Yasir Arafat is with us only after 10 p.m. on weekdays, when Palestinians who have been dancing in the streets over the World Trade Center attack have gone to bed. The Northern Alliance is with us, provided we buy all its troops new sandals and give U.S. passports to the first 1,000 to reach Kabul.

Israel is with us provided we never question the lunacy of 7,000 Israeli colonial settlers living in the middle of a million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. Kuwait would like to be with us, it really would, since we saved Kuwait from Iraq, but two Islamists in the Kuwaiti Parliament spoke out against the war, so the emir just doesn't want to take any chances. You understand. The Saudis, of course, want to be with us, but Saudis are not into war-fighting. That's for the household help. Don't worry. Prince Alwaleed has promised to rent us some Bangladeshi soldiers through a Saudi temp agency — at only a small markup.

The Saudi ruling family would love to cooperate by handing over its police files on the 15 Saudis involved in the hijackings, but that would be a violation of its sovereignty, and, well, you know how much the Saudis respect sovereignty — like when the Saudi Embassy in Washington rushed all of Osama bin Laden's relatives out of America after Sept. 11 on a private Saudi jet, before they could be properly questioned by the F.B.I.

And then there's my personal favorite: All our Arab-Muslim allies would love us to get bin Laden quickly, but the Muslim holy month of Ramadan is coming soon and the Muslim "street" will not tolerate fighting during Ramadan. Say, do you remember the 1973 Middle East war, launched by Egypt and Syria against Israel? Remember what that war was called in the Arab world? "The Ramadan war" — because that's when it was started. Oh, well. I guess the Arab world can launch wars on Ramadan, but not receive them.

My fellow Americans, I hate to say this, but except for the good old Brits, we're all alone. And at the end of the day, it's U.S. and British troops who will have to go in, on the ground, and eliminate bin Laden.

Ah, you ask, but why did we have so many allies in the gulf war against Iraq? Because the Saudis and Kuwaitis bought that alliance. They bought the Syrian Army with billions of dollars for Damascus. They bought us and the Europeans with promises of huge reconstruction contracts and by covering all our costs. Indeed, with the money Japan paid, we actually made a profit on the gulf war; Coalitions "R" Us.
This time we'll have to pay our own way, and for others.

Unfortunately, killing 5,000 innocent Americans in New York just doesn't get the rest of the world that exercised. In part we're to blame. The unilateralist message the Bush team sent from its first day in office — get rid of the Kyoto climate treaty, forget the biological treaty, forget arms control, and if the world doesn't like it that's tough — has now come back to haunt us.

And who can blame other countries for wanting to shake down U.S. taxpayers when Dick Armey and his greedy band of House Republicans are doing the same thing — pushing a stimulus bill with more tax breaks for the rich, lobbyists and corporations, and virtually nothing for the working Americans who will fight this war?

My advice: Try not to focus on any of this. Focus instead on the firemen who rushed into the trade center towers without asking, "How much?" Focus on the thousands of U.S. reservists who have left their jobs and families to go fight in Afghanistan without asking, "What's in it for me?" Unlike the free-riders in our coalition, these young Americans know that Sept. 11 is our holy day — the first day in a just war to preserve our free, multi-religious, democratic society. And I don't really care if that war coincides with Ramadan, Christmas, Hanukkah or the Buddha's birthday — the most respectful and spiritual thing we can do now is fight it until justice is done.

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by El Scorcho
i already said this wasnt exactly a good thing but i also said they had some good reasons for arresting these people. Now if YOU know how to run a country better... why dont you go be president because this aint no PERFECT world. Maybe some of these techniques dont appeal to you but sorry, i dont want another sept 11 ok?
Ahh, resorting to illogical and ad hominem attacks now, I see. How old are you, again? I haven't spoken one word denouncing US policy, if you would only read my posts a little better. I'm just laying that policy out like it is, instead of prettying it up to make it sound nicer. Yes torture is definitely unappealing. Yes, torture may be necessary. But given that we are resorting to such unappealing methods, isn't it hypocritical to blast our enemy for also using unappealing methods (like hiding in the cities, which is a very common strategy historcally used by forces that are outgunned. Remember Stalingrad)? That is my point here. I'm not against U.S. policy. I'm against all the jingoistic, "rah rah rah we're angels and they're devils," talk that I've been hearing on this board lately by people who seem to be wallowing in the propaganda without really studying the true ugly nature of war, past and present.

i already said theres no rules to war. Second... im sure youre like the friggen president and you know just EVERYTHING there is to know about this war. No, i dont think everything on the news is true, and no i dont know everything, but neither do you. Are you in afgansitan, are you running this country? If you think you are sooooo smart on whats going on... why dont you (1) tell us HOW you know all this and (2) enlighten us oh all knowing master.

In conclusion, yes im glad that were finally getting rid of this terrorist sh*t. I dont want more innocent americans involved in more of that stupid ass fundamentalist crap. How can you even call yourself an american? DO you support the taliban and the terrorists and all this other crap thats going on?
If it wasnt for america and the american army your ass would probably be in a pile of rubble right now.
Children should be seen and not heard. If all you can muster up are these kind of rhetorical attacks, why don't you just wave the white flag and give up on this thread, instead of creating bad vibes and just trying to inflame the argument into something personal. Like most bad debaters, you're drawing assumptions about me that don't exist, and letting them get you all riled up. Grow up.

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by fakesurfers
They should be outraged because they are human beings. They should condemn behavior that is immoral and dishonorable because it is the right thing to do.
So they should condemn us too for taking people into custody for forced interrogations, and maybe even torture, without having any charges to bring against them, right? Hear me again. THERE IS NO MORALITY IN WAR!!! ALL'S FAIR IN WAR!!! You cannot take your preconceived notions of what is moral, and what is honorable, and apply it to a wartime setting. They no longer apply to either side, because both sides are throwing morality out the window the minute they start killing people. The most humane action would to be to condemn all war, not to condemn how one side or another fights it. That's just misplaced patriotism at best, venemous propaganda at worst.


What have we contributed?
Let's see:
Kuwait is a country and not a province right now.
I don't see how this affects anything. We did what we did to protect our own oil interests and to put down a rival ruler. This was no humanitarian gesture towards the arabs.


Saudi Arabia gets access to our best military hardware.
In return, we get to use their country as our own military base! They even go so far as to suspend the Islamic law they adhere to for the U.S. military so we can station women there! They owe us nothing.


Egypt cashes those 3 billion dollar yearly checks.
If aid is going to have these kind of strings attached, is it really aid? Maybe they'd be better off without our money, if this is the length of our graciousness?


Their lands are destabilized because most of those countries are run by tin pot dictators. Guess what country (in the Middle East) has the closest thing to a republic? Iran.
Many of these tin pot dictators got their power with our help and machinations (Saddam, Osama, the leaders of Saudi Arabia. There's more, if you'd like). In fact, Iran, the closest thing to a Republic you say, has been dead set against our meddling for 25 years!


Isnt this country full of caves? Why do they need to hide in mosques and schools? Why hasnt one Mideast leader come out and 'said these guys don't represent Islam?' Why hasn't one imam issued a fatwa saying that it isn't OK to put your children in harm's to save your own skin? Why are they silent?
We have missles that can penetrate caves, that's why. History has shown that when a force is outgunned, their best bet is to hide in the cities and make the enemy get out of their planes, out of their tanks, away from their missle launchers, and come after you on foot. To call military strategy immoral is, I will repeat, moot. Maybe these mideast leaders are just as afraid of the fundamentalists as they are of us. Its not like they have nothing to lose by condemning their neighbors. This isn't their war, plain and simple. Its ours. How can we expect them to fight our war for us? Why should we expect them to ignore the fact that many of their citizens have a beef (and rightfully so) with the U.S.?


We made a Faustian bargain with Fahd a long time ago. Unfortunately, we are again in the position of supporting a dictatorship. Large amounts of money are coming from Saudi benefactors to Osama. Why can't they stop the flow of contributions, unless they dont really want to.
Or maybe they simply don't have the power to. Not all the world's governments are as well equipped as ours to enforce their own edicts and laws. Look at the president in Iran. He's a straw man. He's voted in by the people to lead, but the religious leaders there still run the show.


I think they should go out on a limb and condemn what is wrong and do what is right. I think everyone agrees that blowing up the WTC is wrong. Sending Anthrax is wrong. Why is no one in the Middle East doing what (most) North American muslims have done: namely, that this has nothing to do with Islam and we do not support this and the perpetrators should be dealt with harshly.
Maybe they are, and you just don't want to hear them. Or maybe we're realizing for the first time that our expansionist, imperialistic policies have come back to bite us in the ass, and these people really aren't interested in our friendship, but just our money. After all, its not like we've shown any interest in their affairs other than our own oil interests. Sending Anthrax is wrong? So are sanctions which starve millions of Iraqis. So is the military occupation of other sovereign nations like Saudi Arabia and the no-fly zone of Iraq. So is the propping up of puppet dictators for ensured oil supply at the expense of democracy and the common people's fortunes. I could go on, if you'd like.

For the record, I am thinking critically. I've done a lot of research. I probably know more about the Middle East than most non-Arab Americans. Diplomacy is about pure self-interest. Looking out for your people requires more than that. Pure self-interest would suggest that the US should just seize the Saudi oil fields. The difference is that it wouldn't be right.
For all intensive purposes, we have seized those fields. The Saudi rulers rule with our protection, not with the love of their people. If we were to bail, the leaders would be toppled quickly. Why do we bother? Because we get plenty of oil for it. Its a national "protection" scam, just like the mob.


Why are you defending using women and children being used as shields?
Because they aren't.


Why do you think it's OK to hide soldiers in a mosque?
I know enough about war to know that "OK" and "not OK" are not realistic concepts. If missles and fire were raining down on your ass, would you give a **** whether that building which could keep you safe in is a church, mosque, school, or whatever? I doubt that very much.

Why is it all right to cache weapons in the few schools that they do have?
Because we've destroyed everything else, and they have nowhere else to turn. What's immoral about trying to survive?

[pennypinch]

I can't believe you actually copy and pasted the [quote] string that many times.

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by pennypinch
I can't believe you actually copy and pasted the [quote] string that many times.

Ugh, I know. I really need to find a job soon, dammit!

[Kenas]

Originally posted by zenbooty
THERE IS NO MORALITY IN WAR!!! ALL'S FAIR IN WAR!!!

That is no morality in war, when you fight against immoral country, country of barbarians. As far as I remember lots of wars (US vs. Britain, Russia vs. France (1812), Israel vs. Jordan (peace treaty was signed in 1994) were somewhat moral in sense of NOT killing POW.

Here is imoral for you (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1621000/1621278.stm)

[El Scorcho]

Originally posted by zenbooty

Ahh, resorting to illogical and ad hominem attacks now, I see. How old are you, again? I haven't spoken one word denouncing US policy, if you would only read my posts a little better. I'm just laying that policy out like it is, instead of prettying it up to make it sound nicer. Yes torture is definitely unappealing. Yes, torture may be necessary. But given that we are resorting to such unappealing methods, isn't it hypocritical to blast our enemy for also using unappealing methods (like hiding in the cities, which is a very common strategy historcally used by forces that are outgunned. Remember Stalingrad)? That is my point here. I'm not against U.S. policy. I'm against all the jingoistic, "rah rah rah we're angels and they're devils," talk that I've been hearing on this board lately by people who seem to be wallowing in the propaganda without really studying the true ugly nature of war, past and present.
[B]
Children should be seen and not heard. If all you can muster up are these kind of rhetorical attacks, why don't you just wave the white flag and give up on this thread, instead of creating bad vibes and just trying to inflame the argument into something personal. Like most bad debaters, you're drawing assumptions about me that don't exist, and letting them get you all riled up. Grow up.

look...

all im saying is in this war theres america and afganistan. Both of us use some tactics that people arent gonna like but like you said... theres not rules to war. Theyre hiding in civilian places, and were torturing a few suspects. Now maybe not everything that america does is the best thing to do, but i still support america either way.

I recognize your opinions and respect them... these are just mine.

[Kenas]

Originally posted by zenbooty

Remember Stalingrad


I remember Stalingrad, how German hid behind civilians, are you trying to justify Nazis? And about torturing, as I understood by torturing they mean some sort of injection that makes people talk. What's wrong with that?
I believe zenbooty you live in NY. I am wondering what makes you defend those people so eagerly.

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by Kenas
I remember Stalingrad, how German hid behind civilians, are you trying to justify Nazis?
WTF are you talking about? It was the Soviets who hid in the city, dumbass! I'm trying to justify nazis, right. Jeez sometimes I wonder why I even bother debating with some of you.

And about torturing, as I understood by torturing they mean some sort of injection that makes people talk. What's wrong with that?
Unless you are actually there to witness, there's no way you're going to know exactly what's being done to these prisoners. One has already died in custody. You tell me what's wrong with that!

I believe zenbooty you live in NY. I am wondering what makes you defend those people so eagerly.
I am not defending them, I'm trying to make sense of their actions. There are people on this board and in this country who seem to throw all rational logic out the window in crises like this, and just grip on to mindless nationalism and group-think. Like you. Everything we do is ok, and everything they do is evil. No matter what. You will always find a way to skew events to fit your biased view, instead of looking at world events holistically. This is the attitude that gets our country into trouble too often. I'm tired of it, and I'm trying to show things from another angle in hopes somebody here will get it.

If you really want to know why I do these things, read my sig. Then read it again. Then copy it down 500 times, and maybe you'll start to understand.

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by zenbooty


One has already died in custody. You tell me what's wrong with that!



Hmmm i see nothing wrong, yep i'm fine with it personally, i don't care if they start by sticking needles under those A$$es nails, and then rip out their finger nails, and then cut their fingers of a falange at a time. Whatever gets them to talk. I say do everything to make em talk, beat them, castrate them, mutilate them in all various ways, kill their favorite pet, rape their mother... better yet if they are muslim they care about ther fathers more, so get some inmate to rape their father. Whatever gets them to talk is fine with me, these are not people and shouldn't be treated as such

[Kenas]

Originally posted by zenbooty

WTF are you talking about? It was the Soviets who hid in the city, dumbass! I'm trying to justify nazis, right. Jeez sometimes I wonder why I even bother debating with some of you.

Unless you are actually there to witness, there's no way you're going to know exactly what's being done to these prisoners. One has already died in custody. You tell me what's wrong with that!


WOW dumbass? How dumb are YOU? Comparing Stalingrad Battle with Afghanistan. Are you saying that Germans cared how many civilians they kill in Stalingrad? Russians had nobody to hid behind, even if they would Germans did not care. Let me remind(teach) you(!) that Russians defended Stalingrad and tried not to let Germans get further. And there was no point to hide in the city, there was nowhere to hide, everything was destroyed. Germans had only partially taken the city and were unable to get to the Volga river, and then Germans were surrounded. Now, on the other hand, when Germans were backing up they used war prisoners and civilians (including German civilians) as a shield. So why don't you get your facts straight (read some history) and then bother debating with me.

And as for that prisoner that died in custody, as far as we know he died of a heart attack (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1618000/1618761.stm) . And
Unless you are actually there to witness any other ways of torture you won't prove me wrong.

[hapoo]

Originally posted by Burzhui



Hmmm i see nothing wrong, yep i'm fine with it personally, i don't care if they start by sticking needles under those A$$es nails, and then rip out their finger nails, and then cut their fingers of a falange at a time. Whatever gets them to talk. I say do everything to make em talk, beat them, castrate them, mutilate them in all various ways, kill their favorite pet, rape their mother... better yet if they are muslim they care about ther fathers more, so get some inmate to rape their father. Whatever gets them to talk is fine with me, these are not people and shouldn't be treated as such


dude... ease off!

[Luxykin007]

Originally posted by Burzhui



Hmmm i see nothing wrong, yep i'm fine with it personally, i don't care if they start by sticking needles under those A$$es nails, and then rip out their finger nails, and then cut their fingers of a falange at a time. Whatever gets them to talk. I say do everything to make em talk, beat them, castrate them, mutilate them in all various ways, kill their favorite pet, rape their mother... better yet if they are muslim they care about ther fathers more, so get some inmate to rape their father. Whatever gets them to talk is fine with me, these are not people and shouldn't be treated as such

They are still a person as long as they are alive. In case you haven't read it in a while, the declaration of independance has a line in it that reads: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. Not, anti-terrorist Americans higher than Taliban militia men. Does that mean we sit back and say "do what you want to do?" no. We will pursue the best interests of humanity as a nation. Just because we are at war with another country doesn't mean we pop a cap in anyone of their faith/country etc... They are still people and when the war is over we will have to learn to live with them in peace, God willing. If someone is holding out on truth we KNOW they have, I don't think certain psychological means are wrong, but I DO feel that no matter what a person does, they don't ever deserve what you listed above. Think about it, they have felt that way about you and I for the last decade... Are they right? Are you?