I had an argument with Y2J

[OC]

Y2J and I got into it about us bombing the Taliban - he's completely against it. We went back and forth for a bit. He suggested that our conversation be posted in the forums, so here it is. Read it and tell us what you think.

<Y2J> I hope we stop fighting in afghanistan soon
<Y2J> its such a mistake
<overclocked> what, we should just let them attack us and get away with it?
<Y2J> no
<overclocked> what would you have us do then?
<Y2J> but us attacking them is going to make them angrier
<Y2J> terrorists have lived in america for years
<Y2J> bombing afghan. and iraq wont solve anything
<overclocked> right - hence the current problem
<overclocked> i repeat - what would you have us do then?
<Y2J> First Bush has to acknowledge the mistakes out gov't has made in foreign policy, then he has to stop all interaction with other countries (embargos, military, etc)
<Y2J> we have to stop using military muscle
<Y2J> will it lead to peace? nobody knows, but bombing the **** out of afghan. will undoubtedly lead to more american deaths
<Y2J> We have only two choices — death or peace. It's unfortunate that it will take far more courage to choose peace.
<overclocked> Pacifism in the face of a brutal attacker will only get you killed
<overclocked> you said "stop using military muscle"
<Y2J> chances are if we change our foreign policy to a hands-off one, it will not
<overclocked> this means we could never retaliate
<overclocked> Should the US have responded to the attack on Pearl Harbor?
<Y2J> there is no specific enemy to retaliate against. we are just bombing afghanistan, angering them more. Pearl Harbor was a different situation, it was a conventional war. this is not. the enemy is hidden all over, and one person can unleash immesurable acts of violence
<overclocked> Right, but we do have targets that belong to the organization that attacked us
<overclocked> everything you've said suggests that we should just let them get away with what they did
<Y2J> belonged, theyve long left building that may be targets of attack
<Y2J> I think we have to change our policy, or thousands more americans may die
<Y2J> revenge is not necessary, but saving americans lives is
<overclocked> this IS the change in our policy
<overclocked> we've igniored the thrat of terrorism for far too long
<overclocked> and look where it got us
<Y2J> no its not. we have to make it hands-off. ignored? oh no. we've been threatened many times before, just never taken it seriously. If we just stop santioning what other countries can and cannot do, there will be no anger against us
<overclocked> so again you say we should do nothing to retaliate
<Y2J> The only positive of bombing is it will satisfy the understandable lust for vengeance that so many Americans feel right now.
<overclocked> nonsense
<Y2J> That is correct
<overclocked> if i came up to you and knocked you on your ass, would you just say "Sorry I got in your way" or would you want to hit me back?
<Y2J> if we continue the attack, there will be more terrorist attacks, correct?
<overclocked> there will be more terrorist attacks PERIOD
<Y2J> Our gov't will escalate the attacks then, as will the terrorists. and with every Escalation, more will dier
<overclocked> terrorism dates back thousands of years
<Y2J> This cannot go on
<Y2J> Bush has to acknowledge the gov'ts mistakes in foreign policy and change the,m
<overclocked> like what "mistakes"?
<Y2J> Our gov't uses "foreign aid" and military muscle to impose its way upon the rest of the world.
<Y2J> thats why we are hated
<Y2J> we are also loved for making cheap food and medication
<Y2J> we must focus on the positives here
<Y2J> and stop imposing our will on others
<overclocked> cheap medication? tell that to people on Medicare
<overclocked> that have to choose between eating and medicine
<Y2J> cheap food...and medication (we develop medication) is what I meant
<overclocked> so we should pull back to our own borders and ignore the rest of the world?
<Y2J> We have to get the fantasy out of our minds: that by killing foreigners we will bring peace
<overclocked> That's what the Taliban were thinking
<overclocked> when they destroyed the WTC
<Y2J> no, they want war
<Y2J> they dont want peace
<overclocked> you're right, they don't want peace
<Y2J> they want the american scum gone from the earth
<overclocked> that is exactly the point
<overclocked> they don't want peace
<Y2J> well, we have to focus on protecteing ourselves now
<Y2J> and not worry about the damn afghanis
<overclocked> you seem to share their point of view in a way
<overclocked> they hate all americans, not just our government
<Y2J> how is that?
<Y2J> I know, but they hate us because of our government
<overclocked> we are NOT bombing the afghani people, we are bombing their government
<overclocked> we do not hate the afghani people
<overclocked> but we need to knock their governemt on their ass
<overclocked> that's a BIG difference
<Y2J> but then they will retaliate, then we wil again...
<Y2J> how will it end without deaths?
<Y2J> It CANNOT
<Y2J> thats my point
<overclocked> you're right
<overclocked> there will be more deaths
<Y2J> deaths which I prefer to avoid in the name of peace
<overclocked> you don't seem to get it
<overclocked> there will be more attacks against the US if we sit on our ass and do nothing
<overclocked> there will be more attacks PERIOD
<overclocked> do you see that?
<Y2J> No, thats not the case. If we make good on a new foreign policy
<overclocked> but, if we can take away some of their ability to commit acts of terrorism against ANYONE, then I say we do it
<Y2J> then the anger will dissipate from the arab world
<overclocked> bullies are never appeased by capitulation
<Y2J> but we have to understand why are they bullies?
<overclocked> eventually they want to pick a fight again
<Y2J> because america has sanctions against their countries
<overclocked> it doens
<overclocked> it doesn't matter why they are bullies
<overclocked> they've attacked us and they need to pay the price
<overclocked> it is THEY who attacked US
<Y2J> but there are reasons why they did
<overclocked> it is THEY who forsaked the power of words
<overclocked> THEY made NO ATTEMPT to "talk" to us
<overclocked> they just bombed us
<overclocked> at least in the Middle East they TRY to talk once in a while
<Y2J> I know, I feel the same hatred, but I dont see any positives coming out of bombing them
<overclocked> the positive is that we get them on the run so they can't organize any more attacks
<overclocked> if we leave them alone, they'll take that as a victory
<Y2J> that attack was planned for years, Im sure they have more people in America ready to unleash horror
<overclocked> they'll take that victory and try to build on it
<Y2J> we will never find them all
<Y2J> its an impossible war to win
<overclocked> we'll certainly never find them all if we just pull back and do nothing
<overclocked> like you're suggesting
<Y2J> either way we wont
<Y2J> might as well make peace
<overclocked> IT WILL NOT LEAD TO PEACE YOU IDIOT!!!!
<Y2J> theres a chance it will
<Y2J> theres no chance bombing will
<overclocked> bull****
<overclocked> if we just pull away and do nothing to retaliate, they will take that as a victory and perform more attacks
<Y2J> so we agree to disagree
<Y2J> no, if we pull out, they will lose their hatred
<overclocked> nonsense
<overclocked> look
<overclocked> if a bully knocks you down and you do nothing he'll knock you down again again
<overclocked> and again and again
<Y2J> why do they hate us? becauwe we stick our nose in others business...Kuwait, iraq, iran, etc
<Y2J> WE ARE THE BULLY
<overclocked> you're an idiot
<overclocked> if you don't like it here in the US then go help the Taliban
<overclocked> you seem to be on their side anyway
<Y2J> theres too much anger in our country, but we have to look at our mistakes too
<Y2J> its hard for Bush to do that
<overclocked> No, the anger is coming from the Taliban, not us
<Y2J> Just to clear up your view, you agree bombing will lead to retaliation by them, and mroe by us..What will that accomplish?
<overclocked> the outcome will be fewer attacks against us - that's the whole point of war
<overclocked> you know what? Terrorism doesn't work
<overclocked> it has NEVER been used successfully to win an arguement
<Y2J> fewer attacks? how can that be if you anger them further? There are terrorists in all countries, in many organziations, not just the Taliban, terrorism will not die from this.
<overclocked> rolling over and doing nothing will be sending a message to the entire world that we can be beaten by a single attack
<overclocked> can you image what Iraq would do with that?
<overclocked> Or Syria
<Y2J> beaten? no, we will take it as a wake up call. we have to focus on protecting the country better, not worrying about others
<Y2J> ucla game is starting, we should post this conversation on G|A and see what others think
<overclocked> ok - define "protecting our country"
<Y2J> protecting our country -- Keeping the home front safe, developing vaccines in case of bioterorism, educating people, etc.
<Y2J> ok, Im out, if you want to post this, go ahead
<Y2J> good arguing with ya

[topane]

<Y2J> The only positive of bombing is it will satisfy the understandable lust for vengeance that so many Americans feel right now. Absolutely. We still don't really know who the enemy is. All the other terrorist attacks in the world, most of the time someone stands up and says "we did this". Not this time. The enemy you can't see is far more frightening that the one you can

<Y2J> why do they hate us? becauwe we stick our nose in others business...Kuwait, iraq, iran, etc
...
<overclocked> THEY made NO ATTEMPT to "talk" to us
FWIW there has always been stories about Middle Eastern countries not wanting us there, and we are still there. I'm not so sure they haven't talked or perhaps threatened us about it before, but we choose to ignore what other countries want.

And yes, I think we should retaliate against those responsible, but who really is? We say we've got evidence that OBL is the guy, but what if we really don't know and we're just bombing a scapegoat this time?


<Y2J> We have only two choices — death or peace. It's unfortunate that it will take far more courage to choose peaceIt always has...

[mojo]

quick! hide this thread before burzhui sees it! :bigeyes:

[Burzhui]

burzhui has just seen it, and now he will read it

[Burzhui]

Burzhui has read it and has sided with OC for most parts, seriosuly though i don't even know where to start on this one :disa:

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by Burzhui
Burzhui has read it and has sided with OC for most parts, seriosuly though i don't even know where to start on this one :disa:

I agree, I don't know where to start. I side with Y2J on this one, but if we really get into this, its gonna get ugly.

One thing I've been realizing lately as I've been reflecting on current events is that in the thousands of years of history, war has never begotten peace. Think about, there is always war somewhere. I think of it like a crappy computer, if it keeps crashing, using it more won't work. Throwing it out of the window and replacing it with a new comp is really the only hope. We need a new soultion to ohuman onflicts cuzwar doesn't work. War doens't bring peace. I mean think about it, if I'm pointing a gun at you you're not going to see me as your peaceful friend. You'll do what I say until I turn my back and then you'll crack me in the back of the skull. Someone said it, I don't know who, but they're famous for it, that "Peace never came from the barrel of a gun." Like I said, as I've been reflecting more, that's how I feel.

[sbp]

Ahh yes the America is to blame and should hide away from the world bullsh1t argument. Only by cowering in fear will everyone like each other.

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by sbp
Ahh yes the America is to blame and should hide away from the world bullsh1t argument. Only by cowering in fear will everyone like each other.

I didn't say cower in fear, I'm just sayin' look at the track record of war. It's doin' a sh1t load of good in Israel, huh? mmm...not quite. Do we really think that the Jihad is going to end b/c we kill Osama bin Laden? No, someone else, maybe nto even Muslim will come after the USA a-la Tim McVeigh. War has never won. It's always brought more war, pain, and poverty. Not exactly the miracle cure. Let's just go guns blazin' and kill tons of innocent people in a war without a real enemy (save for Osama)? Not exactly wise.

[sbp]

Originally posted by BrewMaster
Do we really think that the Jihad is going to end b/c we kill Osama bin Laden? No, someone else, maybe nto even Muslim will come after the USA a-la Tim McVeigh.Jihad Smehad. :rolleyes:

No killing bin Laden won't end the terrorism. Any more crazies that ooze up from the muck will also be dealt with.


War has never won. It's always brought more war, pain, and poverty.Yes war sucks and is a waste. But sometimes it is necessary to defend yourself and stop evil. Just like WWII.


Let's just go guns blazin' and kill tons of innocent people in a war without a real enemy (save for Osama)? Not exactly wise.Sitting back doing nothing will encourage more terrorist attacks. Leaving these murdering fanatics alive so they come kill tons more of innocent life is certainly not wise. We didn't start this fight but by God we are going to end it victorious!

[sbp]

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/MoreTaliban/talibangifs/mayeskjhg.gif

[PuTangClan]

Originally posted by sbp
http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/MoreTaliban/talibangifs/mayeskjhg.gif

HAHAHA

[Grimm]

Foreign relations are based on respect. If others do not respect us they will consider attacking us. Unfortunately other peoples have entirely different cultures. They respect different things. We can never be respected by all cultures. What one group sees as kindness another will see as weakness. What one group sees as strength another will see as intolerance, or bullying, or hate.
In the cases where we can not be respected we have to rely on fear. They have to be afraid to attack us. They have to respect our strength if they don't respect us.

Yes, we need to change our policies, after we prove that trying to force us to do it is a really bad idea. History shows us that those who show weakness are crushed by peoples that see it as an opportunity.

As for the "War doesn't bring peace" crowd... You are so full of **** that I don't even know how to start. How about some examples. The American Revolutionary War, The US Civil War, WW I, WW II, and just about every other war we have finished. Hmmm... most of the people we have beaten are our allies now, how did that happen? Clichés are not always true.

Who is feeding you people this garbage? And how come you are stupid enough to believe it? It is not a perfect world. The people in other countries are not as nice and cuddly as you want to believe. They hate us for the following reasons: We have, they don't. Freedom, food, luxuries, and hope. They can't stand it when someone is better off than them and not following their rules. They will not stop attacking us until we stop being a world power and become a 3rd world country. Or we institute an Islamic government as strict as theirs.

It's base human nature. And their attack on helpless civilians proves that they are about as base as any human can be. It would be irresponsable to every civilized nation in the world to let this attack go unpunished. This behavior can not be condoned in any way!

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by Grimm


The American Revolutionary War, The US Civil War, WW I, WW II, and just about every other war we have finished.


The fact that we had WWI and WWII proves my point. What was the result of WWI? WWII 25 years later. Great job in the first round....

I agree with you that the world is fuked up and there is no utopia and no way to get there. Human nature shows that people are just fuked up. There's no solution in this world for it. Maybe war is the answer in this situation, I just hate knowing that there are some innocent Afghanis sitting in a broke house, but a house none the less, one minute and then dead the next minute because our "smart" bombs were dumb today and missed the target. Did you see, we missed one target by like 2 miles (I'll look for hte story). I know it might save American lives. There's not really a way to calculate what was saved from events that didn't happen, but I wish we didn't have to killp people. I have no respect for the Taliban and Osama bin Laden, I'm just thinking of the innocent Afghanis who would give anything for a day of peace in the past 50 years. Just my thoughts....

[Grimm]

Originally posted by BrewMaster


The fact that we had WWI and WWII proves my point. What was the result of WWI? WWII 25 years later. Great job in the first round....

A great job was done in the first one. And we learned how to keep it from happening again by learning what happened to cause the 2nd one. This is why we intend to assist in setting up a new Afgani govenment, not a puppet government, but a real government that can lead them back to prosperity. But both WW 1 and 2 were fought for different reasons and were different wars. They were conducted by different governments. But we learned how to keep the world at peace (for the most part) from them.


Originally posted by BrewMaster

I agree with you that the world is fuked up and there is no utopia and no way to get there. Human nature shows that people are just fuked up. There's no solution in this world for it.

Agreeing with me, a sure way to be right. ;)


Originally posted by BrewMaster

Maybe war is the answer in this situation,
Yes, it is in this case. I don't think war is a good thing. I would much rather be at peace. But the cost of peace would be to high. To let the Taliban get away with this would be an invitation for any organization with a beef with anyone we know to attack us. Because they would "know" that we would do nothing.


Originally posted by BrewMaster
I just hate knowing that there are some innocent Afghanis sitting in a broke house, but a house none the less, one minute and then dead the next minute because our "smart" bombs were dumb today and missed the target. Did you see, we missed one target by like 2 miles (I'll look for hte story).
*sigh* "Smart" bombs are more accurate than the less expensive normal bombs. However if you drop either in the wrong place they will both miss the target. Someone goofed. Either assembling the bomb or dropping it. To attribute perfection to a piece of ordinance is foolish. "Smart" bombs are not perfect. They are generaly more accurate. The publics desire to attribute godlike abilities to these bombs is puzling to me. No one claimed they were perfect. Just that they were better. I do feel sorry for all the innocent people that die. But they do share some responsability for allowing the tyrany of the Taliban to exist.


Originally posted by BrewMaster
I know it might save American lives. There's not really a way to calculate what was saved from events that didn't happen, but I wish we didn't have to killp people. I have no respect for the Taliban and Osama bin Laden, I'm just thinking of the innocent Afghanis who would give anything for a day of peace in the past 50 years. Just my thoughts....
Hopefully we will be able to give them that peace in a few years. I wish it would happen tommorow. Everyone in the world shold have a fair government, that's one of our beliefs. This belief is not shared by the Taliban. It's one of the reasons they have to be removed. We were content to let them be in their own corner of the world because it wasn't our business. By attacking us, they made it our business.

[El Scorcho]

well...

just about all these posts were longer than my short attention span has time to read.

So i just looked at the cartoon:

good one sbp!:D

[Grimm]

Originally posted by El Scorcho

just about all these posts were longer than my short attention span has time to read.

So i just looked at the cartoon:


Figures...:hmm:

[El Scorcho]

Originally posted by Grimm


Figures...:hmm:

OH... and BY THE WAY PUNK:angry: ... i GOT tickets to KNOTTS and i WENT last NIGHT!

hahah i got to go too na na na na na na.

just kiddin:D

did you go yet? they kinda toned it down and it wasnt so good:(

[oblongmelon]

I'm sorry Y2J but I have to agree with OC on this one..these terrorists are weak minded individuals that want nothing more than to have an ENTIRE world of people following their lead regardless of who gets hurt in the process. It's quite vexing to see some of your statements-and quite honestly it makes you sound like a sympathizer of these tyrants. Whats that old saying? "bitten once shame on you, bitten once shame on me..."...yeh I can agree with that..why the heck SHOULD the UNITED STATES(who you claim is so hated by everyone yet has the support of HOW MANY COUNTRIES on this one? Think about it..)tolerate such unadulterated crap from anyone?-ANYONE. To come onto someones home turf and antagonize them with the unmitigated gall that these chickensh*t terrorists did, on behalf of THE BIGGEST CHICKENSH*T of all(ol bin) is nothing but shear cowardice..why didnt they take PRIDE in their terrorist acts and tell someone BEFORE they did what they did?? No way! because they are COWARDS..there is NO JUSTIFICATION for what they did here on American soil-NONE. They want to engage in warfare under their OWN terms..which to them, killing innocents means nothing as long as they look like the apparent winners which they, I may say..are not.. So let's take the battle that THEY created -right back over to their own homeland and see how much fun it is...The nature of the beast is for ANY mother to protect it's own..in whatever fashion it must..Our motherland is not gonna sit back and let some pansy ass sheet wearing dirty footed hoodlums come over here and kill off 5000+ of her babies and not get a bit testy. I mean for crying out loud..look at world war II...Hitler? yeh-hello..how the hell many little "puppets" did this f*cknut have running around doing his evil work..because in his own sick little mind HE was right about the ways of the world..trying to enforce his beliefs on the world got millions of innocent people killed..and in the end where did it get him? Take his pal Reinhard Heydich..also known to the Nazi's as the "BLOND BEAST"...this guy was so totally wrapped up in Hitler's messed up propoganda that he literally worked his way up to be one of the main monkey's of the final solution in the sort of way that the taliban is being led by binladen..and what happened to that guy in the end? he was shot by some some czech assassins who were brought in by check free agents and died of septicemia from the bits and pieces of the friggen car he was riding in being lodged in his chest..Bin laden is a rabble rouser...a cry baby of sorts..who was probably picked on by some bigger kid when he was younger and he never got over it..Now he has the funds to supply weapons and various other toys to have a little tantrum and try and get some crazy point across but where the hell is he? HIDING out in some damn cave like a damn rat while his crons do his dirty work..and you think the US has no right to retaliate? would you be thinking the same way if you had a family member at the wtc on sept 11th that didnt come home? Those people in those terrorist cells are living in backwards centuries..it's all about control with them..they controlled their women, now they don't have anyone to "play" with..they remind me of the weasaly little kid at school that had the big bully as his friend, and if you pissed the weasel off the bully would kick the crap outta ya while the other kid stood by grinning..Binladen the weasel that he is, has all those other backwards terrorist countries covering his ass waiting for the "lunch money caper" ..they are DYING (literally) to get in a war so that they can prove something to someone..unfortunately they are messing with the wrong momma this time..the US isn't gonna take it..i SAY GOOD FOR US..bad for them. What was that Alice Cooper song? NO MORE MR.NICE GUY..yeh-you go GW, you rock.