Do you think IT workers should be unionized?

[fakesurfers]

If not, why not?

[Markel]

No thanks. I don't want to join or support a union.

They have had their places and needs to fill, but when they become more concerned with self-perpetuating and ever-increasing the girth and cigar ring-size of their leaders, they've outpaced their need.

[topane]

I agree with Markel. Unions served their need at one point in time and were very helpful to keep employers from abusing their employees and getting fair wages and benefits. Now it's the union employees who seems to abuse the system. My mother-in-law works at a book company in a warehouse full of teamsters. These guys are sleeping all day at work and running side businesses out of their desks but they can't be fired unless they show up to work and start stabbing people to death.

[Jeffbx]

Gotta agree with Markel & topane. Unions were useful long ago before there were laws to protect workers. Now they've grown out of control & do nothin but waste all of our money. I wonder how much cheaper cars would be if the UAW no longer existed and it only took 1 guy to change the headlamp on a forklift? Today it takes about 4:

1. The operator of the forklift is idle while this happens
2. A mechanic opens the assembly that houses the lamp
3. An electrician has to supply the lightbulb
4. A supervisor needs to oversee the operation

This is to guarantee that no one is taking anyone else's job away. The UAW pretty much demands absolute job security, so if the forklift operator can change the lightbulb himself, that deminishes the mechanic and the electrician's job security.

Man, where else but in the US can a person with no skills, no training and no education beyond high school earn $26/hr with virtually no possibility of being fired?

[OC]

I think the huge number of layoffs in the last six months will help put the wind back into unions' sails.

I'm not sure how I feel about unions now. I used to share the "past their usefulness" thought, but I've been laid off 3 times in six years and I could use some security for myself. This is not to say I want a $26/hr a job to sit and watch others work.

Between the unions militant job security and employers' absolute power to f*ck with our lives, there has to be a decent middle ground somewhere.

-OC

[LPMiller]

I voted yes, till I realized I had misread it, and it did not infact say "Do you think IT workers should be euthanized?"

So, um, no.

[Burzhui]

i picked that nifty CEO option

[zenbooty]

If you're in IT you are a skilled professional (I hope). Professionals generally don't need unions, because the demand for their expertise is almost always greater than the supply. I don't think this little economic downturn will change that equation for very long.

[AmRivlin]

When I read topic, I was like WHAT?! Un Ionized? I was like what kinda job loads you up with to many Ions! Ah the Physics days.

[DoPeY5007]

nope :P


salaries would all be the same :eek:

[jase71]

Depends on what you want the union to do for the IT people.

IT people are generally pretty well paid, and probably don't need the pay hikes Unions would demand.

But I've been in a few places where a little power to the people would be nice. Things like uncompensated on-call, mandatory Saturdays and/or Sundays, excessive late nites, or frequent 18+ hour days tend to grate on you. The last job I had involved all of them on a weekly basis.

In larger cities it wouldn't be a problem. You could just wander off and get a different job. But here there's a pretty captive market. There are very, very few jobs open in the area. There are just a few major employers of IT people, and they all treat employees about the same. They extract 60-80 hours out of each employee in the name of "Crisis", and then when the crisis is averted, they downsize people rather than scaling back to 40 hours a week. So everyone remains at 60-80 hours a week. And, since you're salaried, you're still only "paid" for 40... Your only hope to keep your job is to work the extra time, family or not. Complain, and you're the next one to be downsized. Your only real hope for a "new" job is to sell your home, and move to a larger city.

Hey, I don't mind working long hours for a legitimate reason. I've done it for years, I'm sure I will for years to come. But to do it
to meet a manager's budget, and so an exec can get a bonus for "efficiency", well, I've got a problem with that.

A union would help a little bit in that respect.

[Jeffbx]

Originally posted by LPMiller
I voted yes, till I realized I had misread it, and it did not infact say "Do you think IT workers should be euthanized?"



But then who would break the servers??

:confused:

[chrissy]

At MicroAge, they tried voting in the Teamsters. I didn't agree with the teamsters, but another union probably would have been good.

Right now, the IT business world is in the beginning stages of growth, still. And is following a pattern that other industries have had to deal with. Sure, when it comes to safty, its ergonomics instead of welding shields or hard hats. And hours and benefits are always at the bargining table.

I guess it all goes back to the individual company and the situation happening there. MicroAge needed a union, but not one without IT or office/cubical land experience.

[fakesurfers]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you guys. Unions do work. Today's corporation doesnt even bother to pay lip service to its stakeholders. Someone please explain to me how 'at-will' employment is a good deal for the worker. If contracting is such a good deal, then how come less than 10% of contractors turn down the opportunity to become regular full time workers of the company they contract for?

Unions are a bad deal for the customer, which is in this case is multinational corporations. Everyone else involved does just fine. The unionized workers get a living wage. Non-unionized workers in the same industry enjoy better pay and benefits than they would have because management wants to avoid driving even more people into the union. Stockholders do just fine (show me an industry where non-unionized companies killed their unionized rivals in terms of stock gains).

The corporations have almost absolute power over those that work for them. Why is this a good thing? Organized labor serves as a useful counterweight to check the worst of their abuses. Not only that, but in the long run it saves the company money. Why? Reduced turnover. Every company has its own peculiar quirks. You may have more skillz when you start than the person thats been there 4 or 5 years, but (s)he can be just as productive by knowing the in's and out's of the company culture.

What do you, as a worker, have to lose? Your continued employment depends more on macroeconomic trends than whether people of your skill set at one company are unionized. You cannot refute the fact that if you were in a union right now, you would be making more money. Doesnt it seem like you would help the economy more by having additional money to spend than some corporate baron getting it and throwing another billion in T-bills?

'It's your money.' - GW Bush.

[Markel]

Originally posted by fakesurfers

Unions are a bad deal for the customer, which is in this case is multinational corporations. Everyone else involved does just fine.
But when you become the customer (having to purchase goods from the unionized company), you don't do "just fine". You pay through the nose.


You cannot refute the fact that if you were in a union right now, you would be making more money. Doesnt it seem like you would help the economy more by having additional money to spend than some corporate baron getting it and throwing another billion in T-bills?
I shudder to imagine what things would cost if this were so. True, if I were in a union I might be making a few more bucks. However, do you have any idea what a Big Mac (replace with whatever such item you wish) would cost if everyone involved was part of a union? $5? $7 How about your PC? $6000? $8000?

No thanks.

[BrewMaster]

whatever keeps prices cheap for me. the current layoffs probably couldn't have been prevented by unions. I mean the airline workers are unionized and a bunch of them have been layed off. but I'm not in IT so maybe I'm not seeeing something....

[dbax791]

As an IT professional it is your responsibility to keep your skills up with what the market demands. If you play your cards right, you can turn this into serious $$$$$. If IT was unionized, where is the incentive to keep up your training if you have a guaranteed job? Anyone remember about 4-5 years ago when SAP consultants were making $300/hr? And gawd forbid a pay scale for IT based on seniority. That would be a disaster. I like "At Will" employment. By keeping my skills up, I know I'm definately not the low man on the totem pole if layoffs start, and hey, if someone else wants to pay me more, I like the option to jump ship if I want.

Hmmm...I wonder why I didn't see this thread 2 yrs ago when G|A? first started and everybody had 5-10 job offers and let companies outbid each other for their skills?

On a side note, I had several friends bolt stable companies to go to .com startups with the promise of lucrative IPO stock options. Whoops!

[Jeffbx]

Originally posted by fakesurfers
Someone please explain to me how 'at-will' employment is a good deal for the worker.

Don't let the term throw you - companies get sued every day for letting go 'at-will' employers. They are protected by the same laws as everyone else. Even though it states in many employement agreements that the company has a right to let you go at any time for no reason, they actually had better have a dang good reason for it or they will be taken to court. I've worked 'at-will' for the last 10 years, at big companies and internet startups and I've never been laid off (knocking on wood) - even through downturns and a bankrupsy. Why? I'd like believe it's my good looks and charm, but more likely it's my skills and background.

With a union, skills don't keep you working, a contract does. So what, you say? Well, how does it help a company to be forced to pay for a worker that is not contributing? That leads to lower profts, stock dips, and poor financial reports.

Big deal, who cares if the big company loses money? Well, everyone who buys the product will be unhappy about the higher prices, and I'm pretty sure no one will be happy when the company has to close their doors.


The corporations have almost absolute power over those that work for them. Why is this a good thing? Organized labor serves as a useful counterweight to check the worst of their abuses. Not only that, but in the long run it saves the company money. Why? Reduced turnover.

See above - how does being forced to keep unproductive workers help? OK, I'll grant that turnover is lower, but that doesn't help much when the company is wasting money by paying salaries of unproductive people.


What do you, as a worker, have to lose? ... You cannot refute the fact that if you were in a union right now, you would be making more money. Doesnt it seem like you would help the economy more by having additional money to spend than some corporate baron getting it and throwing another billion in T-bills?

OK, say I'm in a union, making more money. Where is that money coming from? Higher prices of the products/services that are selling. The competitor is selling those products/services for less. Who will people buy from? The union shop, so that I can make a higher salary? Or the more affordable place?

Why do you think you see those 'Buy Union!' bumper stickers all over the place? They have to convince people to buy at a higher price for the same good/serivces.

You should see the people in the auto industry railing on and on about foreign labor taking their jobs. They have a right to worry - people outside the US are lining up to do jobs cheaper and more efficiently. Why should a company pay 4 guys $30/hr each for work that one person can do for $12/hr? Unions say that companies have an obligation to do so. For years, they did. However, now that they are being taken to the cleaners by the competition, they have no choice but to take labor overseas.

Why are US manufacturers being stepped all over by foreign companies? Well, for years Unions have convinced US workers that their job is guaranteed. They don't have to worry about being fired. Come in, do your job, go home. Screw up now and then? Don't worry - there are union arbitrators that will deal with the 'suits'.

It's no friggin wonder that the quality of US cars is so much lower than German or Japanese manufacturers. The difference is that the Germans and Japanese line workers have what's called a 'work ethic'. It's this, and not 'job security' that keeps them employed.

Sure, unions had their place 50 years ago. Are they needed today? In some places, yes. In many places, no. In a professional service industry like IT? I don't think so.

[johnnymk]

I used to be vehemently opposed to unions. As I have grown a little older, I realize that they still have a place.
When you have administrations that endorse GATT, NAFTA and who loosen up immigration policies, one way to counterattack them is by strong unions.
Since we have become basically a service oriented country (primarily because of those policies), we are at the mercy of countries producing
essential goods.
I don't believe that Corporations are inherently evil, but I do know that they repect no borders. They will take their business to any country who will do it as cheap as possible.
I don't know if anyone was following the events concerning the Mexican government wanting to eliminate the safety and emission checks on their trucks when they enter the borders of the U.S. In addition, there was a concern over the lack of CDL certification by Mexican drivers. President Bush totally endorsed the Mexican plan, in spite of the very real concern by the Teamsters of unsafe trucks and unqualified Mexican drivers roaming the highways in America. As far as I know, the Teamsters won the battle, but I doubt that they won the war. The Federal government still desires to export everything to low wage countries.
How do you fight the trend to export all goods and services to countries where the average wage is $1 a day or a $1 an hour? Since our legislators are wimps and care less about the welfare of the American capitalist system, there has to be an effective counterattack against this trend. And as far as I can see, it is powerful unions.
Unions do get sloppy . I see it here at work. It appears that they protect the lazy and the inefficient. The hard workers suffer because of the bums. But that depends on the relationship between the union and the company/corporation that they represent.
Just remember, the next trend in the IT industry is toward the use of low wage manpower from countries like India. If you don't mind being at the mercy of practically every good and service from other countries, then just sit back and assume everything will just fall in place.
I know that there are flaws in this reasoning, but I don't know of too many other alternatives. Maybe someone else has some better ideas.

[dbax791]

Originally posted by johnnymk
I know that there are flaws in this reasoning, but I don't know of too many other alternatives. Maybe someone else has some better ideas.

You bring up some valid points. Interesting.

But if IT workers in India are cheaper than US workers, and results in lower costs, is that necessarily bad? Before the economy turned south, we had to outsource some stuff to India because you just couldn't find any available IT workers here. Well, the quality of work was just not there - not saying they were unqualified, its just a matter of being close to your customers to avoid rework, etc. For routine stuff, like systems maintenance and infrastructure, what is the advantage of unionizing to protect high salaries for something that can be done elsewhere? Again, I believe that it is a person's own individual responsibility to obtain the skills that the market demands, rather than artificially protecting a job thru a union.

Good points re: Nafta and the emisssions. I agree in principal that Unions are good to the extent that they ensure a safe working environment (a la Coal Miners, Steel Workers, etc...) but IT workers? The worst I have to worry about is deteriorating vision and Carpal Tunnel, but hey, I'd get that from Got|Apex? on my own time anyway.

[Grimm]

I used to be very anti-union. But as I see more and more the crap that corperations get away with at the expense of normal workers the farther I lean toward Unions.
The government can't protect you or feed your family all their life. Companies have teams of lawyers that are paid to screw you out of everything they can. An average person isn't going to be able to stop that from happening. We need our own lawyers to make sure everything is on the up and up. 'Cause as things stand now, they aren't.

As more and more jobs leave the country to be done shoddily for 1/10th the price or less, I have to wonder what all the people here will do for employment when all that is left are $7 an hour service positions.
Sorry, we need to keep the jobs here. When the big corporations move a product's manufacturing off shore they don't pass the savngs on to you, they put it into their already fat pocket.

I really hate Unions, but we need them.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by johnnymk
Since our legislators are wimps and care less about the welfare of the American capitalist system, there has to be an effective counterattack against this trend. And as far as I can see, it is powerful unions.

Funny. I thought the point of the capitalist system was a free market economy without barriers (i.e., tarrifs). You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[johnnymk]

We don't have a free market economy. i.e. laissez-faire. I am not sure that we ever did.
We have a centralized Banking System( The Fed), which seems to believe that they know what's best for the Economy. We have an income tax that is structured toward income redistribution. We have corporations that respect no borders. We have an immense social network that has hidden future as well as present costs. We have government agencies that exist with people in charge who we didn't
elect, i.e. the EPA, OSHA, the FCC, etc. who could give a damn about the health of small businesses. I could go on and on, but please don't tell me we that we have a free market economy.