Another sad example of political correctness

[sbp]

Even in troublesome times when we should be unified and are still mourning our losses, there are those who always think in terms of group identity politics.


Sculpture raises ire over 'political correctness' (http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20020112-26337373.htm)

NEW YORK (AP) — A statue based on the famous photograph of the flag-raising at the World Trade Center site is being criticized because the three white firefighters in the picture have been transformed into one white, one black and one Hispanic.

Some firefighters and their families say the 19-foot bronze monument is political correctness run amok and an attempt to rewrite history.

The $180,000 sculpture is expected to be erected this spring at the New York Fire Department's Brooklyn headquarters in tribute to the 343 firefighters killed in the September 11 attack. It is based on a newspaper photo from that day of firefighters raising the American flag on about 20 feet of rubble.

The decision to represent different races was made by the fire department, the makers of the statue, and the property-management company that owns the department headquarters building and that commissioned the work.

"Given that those who died were of all races and all ethnicities and that the statue was to be symbolic of those sacrifices, ultimately a decision was made to honor no one in particular, but everyone who made the supreme sacrifice," fire department spokesman Frank Gribbon said.

But Tony Marden of Ladder 165 in Queens called the decision "an insult to those three guys to put imaginary faces on that statue."

"It's not a racial thing. That shouldn't even be an issue," he said.

And Carlo Casoria, who lost his firefighter son Thomas, said: "They're rewriting history in order to achieve political correctness."

The three firefighters in the photo — Dan McWilliams, George Johnson and Billy Eisengrein — declined to comment. But their attorney, Bill Kelly, said the men are "disappointed because it's become something that is political, as opposed to historical." He said he has written to the management company and the department, asking them to stop production of the statue.

But Kevin James, a member of the Vulcan Society, which represents black firefighters, welcomed the design.

"The symbolism is far more important than representing the actual people," he said. "I think the artistic expression of diversity would supersede any concern over factual correctness."

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Guess the Iwo Jima monument better be changed also. :rolleyes:

[ChrisMG187]

whats the iwo jima monument?

[OC]

Reason #337,596 why people suck...

I can see and understand both sides of the story, but here's my view: The "people should come together" angle is way overused, and not terribly effective. People are more inspired by the actions of individuals than anything else. This act of raising the flag should have nothing to do with race - it should have everything to do with the people that did it.

Am I going to be less inspired because the people that did it are not of my race? No.

Am I going to be less inspired because I know the statue was modified to be PC? Yes.

I salute the men that raised the flag, and as an American I am honored by their actions. I do not salute the people that passed up a chance to honor them.

-OC

[sbp]

Oh man, what the hell are they teaching in schools today. :disa:

[Windsor]

Oh, so that's what that thing is called? Well, some spray paint could remedy the problem quickly

[sbp]

What race the firefighters were or were not didn't even cross my mind when I saw that picture. And it wouldn't matter to me, if they were all the same of a different race or not.

Why must everything be made so complicated?

[sbp]

http://arlingtoncounty.com/IWOJIMA2.jpg

The Battle for Iwo Jima: http://www.iwofriends.com/History/iwojima.htm
http://www.iwojima.com/iwojima/

[mojo]

a couple of asides:

if it was done to be pc, then where are the asian and whatever other races' representation on the statue? or the female representation? and what about the other occupations? they could have put a cop on there as well.

i doubt that the people that raised the flag should mind that much. i mean, i hope it's not about their personal glory that they did this stuff.

[Windsor]

Is the ACLU involved in this? And who's criticizing this? Pundits? Extremists?

[Sir_Froggy]

wait......was the monument made of stone or metal? if it was then how do they show white blacks and hispanics?

and i don't think people that didn't work there deserve any credit......it's like cheating on a test :P

[Luxykin007]

Man that is stupid. I am absolutley not racist by any means, but you can't change history. If you want to use that picture as a model, fine, but do it right. We should start a petition to stop that because that is seriously a mockery to what actually happened.

[eSDee]

I'm still undecided on this one. I don't think that everything needs to be PC these days, but who is this monument there to commemorate, the three who raised the flag or the hundreds who died? Those who did die were a mix of races, and so I think it is quite noble of the fire department to try and honor all of them by making the statue reflect that. I think the bigger issue is more important, not whether it's too PC or not.

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by Sir_Froggy
wait......was the monument made of stone or metal? if it was then how do they show white blacks and hispanics?


I'm with you on this one... when done in bronze, it is extremely hard to tell different races apart, especially with helmets on.

Also, I'd have to check to be sure, but I thought that atleast one of the men that raised the flag on Iwo Jima was either Latino or Native American.

[leemaj]

<smart ass>well, why dont they make an arab guy on there too to show that we are all unified and stuff? </smart ass> i think that if its based on a photo, it should be just like the photo is.

[Dave_7]

Not everything is a racial issue.

If the artist who sculpted this piece wanted to show diversity and unity... fine. Then this is a piece of of art... so beit.

I don't think, however, that such art should be decreed a monument signifying a "moment" caught in bronze.

That's the idea I get when I look at such a sculpture... I like to think I'm looking at a moment in time frozen for me to see in 3-D.

If there were three white guys there... then I would have depicted this as three white guys raising the flag, rather than obviously angling for racial diversity.

This was the wrong place to make a diversity statement.




Dave.

[NuTs62]

I think I gotta agree with Leemaj on this one, I think the sculpture should be based on the photo, since that was the original intent. If they want to make a sculpture to show diversity, then have some artist sketch one out with all the races that were effected and make a sculpture out of that! It wasn't only caucasians, blacks, and hispanics who died.

If this sculpture is indeed erected, what will it say in our history books, as to the people represented in it? Will it show the names of the white men in the photo, or John Does for the Hispanic and Af-American?

[hapoo]

on a side note... while all the other firefighters were helpin' out the people in need why did these three decide to step aside and put up the flag? Just curious. looks a little too perfect for me, with the camera man there and all. probably just a coincedence. ok, i'll stop rambling now :)

[molecularfire]

I wonder if people would get pissed if I made Lincoln hispanic, Washington Black, Jefferson Oriental and left Roosevelt white. I'd make Lincoln black, but then the civil war wouldn't make too much sense.

:D

[hapoo]

Originally posted by molecularfire
I wonder if people would get pissed if I made Lincoln hispanic, Washington Black, Jefferson Oriental and left Roosevelt white. I'd make Lincoln black, but then the civil war wouldn't make too much sense.

:D


lincoln's not black? :confused:

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by hapoo
on a side note... while all the other firefighters were helpin' out the people in need why did these three decide to step aside and put up the flag? Just curious. looks a little too perfect for me, with the camera man there and all. probably just a coincedence. ok, i'll stop rambling now :)

I think that you have a good point here. I won't go so far as to say that it was staged (as many believed the flag raising in Iwo Jima was), but it is very "convenient."
But your point about, why in the hell were these guys raising a flag when there were still people to be saved? I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for the U.S. flag, but I'd personally burn a million of them if it saved one innocent person's life.

[sbp]

Gentlemen please. The firefighters were asked to raise the flag. A symbol that America still stood strong and to serve as inspiration.

[Sir_Froggy]

Originally posted by sbp
Gentlemen please. The firefighters were asked to raise the flag. A symbol that America still stood strong and to serve as inspiration.


how do u know we're all men?? heh i'm a boy

[mojo]

Originally posted by sbp
Gentlemen please. The firefighters were asked to raise the flag. A symbol that America still stood strong and to serve as inspiration.
so it's america standing strong, not just these 3 men.

esdee asked a good question with the whole thing of who it's supposed to commemorate. thousands died that day...if we are honoring these people then who cares who had the opportunity to raise the flag? sure, it was nice of them to do their job and all, but i would hope they weren't doing their job hoping to get a statue out of it.

there are points for both sides. this doesnt seem to cry out "too pc" to me.

[sbp]

Having a statue which is based on the men in the picture would not represent everyone? What a sad commentary.

[topane]

The whole thing is stupid. Probably one person said something which started the whole thing. Anyways, I think it's an insult to the men who were originally there.

[ArkiStan]

So somebody tell me what a hispanic statue and a black statue and a white person's statue looks like. This is just gonna be one wonderful exploitation of different physical stereotypes among racial groups.

[mojo]

how about just a monument that doesn't involve people, but just the flag? the flag certainly does represent all of us, as well as those that died on that day. who could complain then?

[Dave_7]

While creating the statue based on that photo, the most "color-blind" thing to do would be to create a statue based on the men in the picture... and that's it.

And as far as it being convenient, I doubt the chief said, "Alright... let's get three of you up here for the picture... wait wait... not you, Felipe... let's get Todd up here. We want ALL white guys in this photo."

Please.

Like I said above, this statue should have been about the moment, itself. That would've been the most powerful expression (to me).




Dave.

[Grimm]

I was conflicted about it, both have valid points, until I thought about it this way: If 3 black firefighters had raised the flag and they made one of them white and one hispanic how would I feel? I would be pissed, they would be stealing credit from a minority. So why should I feel differently about it when the three men were white?
A statue about a historical event should be as accurate as possible. Artistic licence is fine, so long as it doesn't change the facts.

If they want a PC statue built to show all races, have it be of them digging up rubble or carying an injured person. Don't base it on a picture and change the facts.

[brain]

PC has definitely gotten out of control. :shake:

[molecularfire]

I think the easiest way to deal with the ethnicity issue is to have more interbreeding among the different ethnicities. It's kinda hard to make fun of people when everyone is a mutt. If any cute female out there wants some Vietnamese/Chinese blood in their family line, feel free to send me an e-mail with pics. :eyebrow:

[whitak24]

But Kevin James, a member of the Vulcan Society, which represents black firefighters, welcomed the design.

"The symbolism is far more important than representing the actual people," he said. "I think the artistic expression of diversity would supersede any concern over factual correctness."
it is the second part of that statement that really bothers me. i agree that the symbolism is what is important. As sbp pointed pointed out above, the flag was raised because it was "a symbol that America still stood strong and to serve as inspiration." therefore, the statue should reflect that the flag-raising represented the unity and strength of the American people in the days after the tragedy, and that strength was often personified by the bravery and dedication of our firefighters.
WHAT happened is more important than WHO did it. unlike mt. rushmore, which was made to celebrate the achievements of four important PEOPLE in American history, this statue is supposed to celebrate the spirit of unity and bravery that the flag-raising demonstrated. we can assume that the actions of those three firefighters reflected the spirit of all the other firefighters and rescue workers of other races, genders, and creeds who were also helping at the disaster site. therefore, it shouldn't be too big a problem to not put the exact people out of the picture in the statue.
however, i really do not like the idea that "the artistic expression of diversity would supersede any concern over factual correctness." artistic expressions are fine and all, but to take the attitude that this gentleman seems to be taking (that facts should take a backseat to diversity) is entirely inappropriate imo. we should never ignore the facts just because the facts don't fit exactly what we would like to see.

[whitak24]

Originally posted by ucbstan
So somebody tell me what a hispanic statue and a black statue and a white person's statue looks like. This is just gonna be one wonderful exploitation of different physical stereotypes among racial groups.
i strongly agree. in a bronze or stone statue, about the only way to show racial differences is to make use of stereotypical ethnic physical characteristics in an almost-exaggerated manner so that as soon as you see the "black" person, you recognize them because of those characteristics.
in Washington, DC, there are a few statues (korean war and vietnam war memorials) that are "racially balanced", and that's how they achieved it. i personally find it somewhat distasteful to perpetuate stereotypes like this, but that's just me.

[Grimm]

Originally posted by whitak24

however, i really do not like the idea that "the artistic expression of diversity would supersede any concern over factual correctness." artistic expressions are fine and all, but to take the attitude that this gentleman seems to be taking (that facts should take a backseat to diversity) is entirely inappropriate imo. we should never ignore the facts just because the facts don't fit exactly what we would like to see.
Well said. When being Politicaly Correct becomes more important than being truthful we have a problem.
That statement bothers me too. "the artistic expression of diversity would supersede any concern over factual correctness." sounds like somthing out of a socialst propaganda film. :(

[eSDee]

Originally posted by Grimm

Well said. When being Politicaly Correct becomes more important than being truthful we have a problem.
That statement bothers me too. "the artistic expression of diversity would supersede any concern over factual correctness." sounds like somthing out of a socialst propaganda film. :(

Forget political correctness, how about the fact that we are dwelling too much on the superficial details, rather than the symbol itself. Upon further reflection, I belive I don't care who or what they do with this monument, just as long as it gets built. Who gives a rats ass what ethnicities are represented; I for one am not going to be thinking about those 3 guys but more importantly what the even symbolized. If the PC police want to duke it out with the anti-PC police, so be it. I don't want to be a part of it. All firefighters that day were heroes, and so whoever they choose to characiture doesn't make a bit of damn difference, in my humble AMERICAN OPINION!!!

I'm done with this thread. Next!

[Sir_Froggy]

again as i said before.....how can u tell which race is which race when it's made of stone or metal? the people that did that flag will know they did it and the people most important to them...which is probably most important to them......

[BlckDragonSlyr]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy


I think that you have a good point here. I won't go so far as to say that it was staged (as many believed the flag raising in Iwo Jima was), but it is very "convenient."



There were 2 raisings of the flag on Iowa Jima. The first one was not photographed but it did happen. It was after on that they rose it again because a photographer was there to take the shot. So in a way it was kind of staged, but only after the actual event happened.

[mojo]

truly sad when peeps are more concerned about honoring the firefighters than honoring the people that died there :rolleyes:

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by BlckDragonSlyr
There were 2 raisings of the flag on Iowa Jima. The first one was not photographed but it did happen. It was after on that they rose it again because a photographer was there to take the shot. So in a way it was kind of staged, but only after the actual event happened.

Yes, I know... but, by saying that it wasn't staged, what I meant was that the photo itself wasn't staged.

The original flag raised on Iwo Jima was much smaller. Once the hill was more secure, they held a second flag raising, but the picture was meant to be taken after the flag was already raised. However, as the men were raising the flag, the photographer thought that it would be cool to get a picture as the flag was being raised, and snapped a shot.

The men raising the flag had no knowledge that they were in a picture until much later. So, no, neither of the flag raisings on Iwo Jima were "staged," as some claimed them to be.

[sbp]

truly sad when peeps feel the need to change things to satisfy an agenda. Instead of having a statue which would have honored the people that died there at that hallow site, now it represents political correctness.

[NuTs62]

Originally posted by mojorisin
truly sad when peeps are more concerned about honoring the firefighters than honoring the people that died there :rolleyes:

In my opinion, the statue honors all those who died, those who risked their lives to save the people, the thousands of people fighting to protect us and preserve our way of life and fight for our freedom (soldiers in Afghanistan, etc.), the unity of our nation because of those events, and to show.. as the Star Spangled Banner says "That our flag was still there...".

I don't believe the firefighters were looking to be famous, and to be the faces of some statue. It was a time when everyone felt saddened due to the events, and it brought the patriotic nature out of everyone.. They were doing what Americans all over the country were doing, putting up flags to show unity.

I'm not "more concerned" about honoring firefighters. I'm equally concerned. Many of the firehouses in New York lost most of their men and women that day. But you are right about it being sad.. Its sad how they've belittled the event.