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mojo
01-21-2002, 05:45 AM
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991808

Drowned Indian city could be world's oldest


16:03 18 January 02
Emma Young


Evidence of an ancient "lost river civilisation" has been uncovered off the west coast of India, the country's minister for science and technology has announced. Local archaeologists claim the find could push back currently accepted dates of the emergence of the world's first cities.

Underwater archaeologists at the National Institute of Ocean Technology first detected signs of an ancient submerged settlement in the Gulf of Cambray, off Gujarat, in May 2001. They have now conducted further acoustic imaging surveys and have carbon dated one of the finds.

The acoustic imaging has identified a nine-kilometre-long stretch of what was once a river but is now 40 metres beneath the sea. The site is surrounded by evidence of extensive human settlement. Carved wood, pottery, beads, broken pieces of sculpture and human teeth have been retrieved from along the river banks, according to a report in the Indian Express newspaper. Carbon dating of one of the wooden samples has dated the site to around 7500 BC.

"The carbon dating of 7500 BC obtained for the wooden piece recovered from the site changes the earlier held view that the first cities appeared in the Sumer Valley [in Mesopotamia] around 3000 BC," said B Sasisekaran of India's National Science Academy.

Tom Higham of Oxford University's Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit says submerged wood is often well-preserved and should be relatively straightforward to carbon date. "I don't see how you could get it grossly wrong," he says. "In the past, it has been said that you shouldn't pin all your interpretations on a date from one sample. But that's not so true these days. And dating a sample that's between 5000 and 10,000 years old is pretty easy."


Critical examination


If confirmed, the find would also push back the date of India's earliest known civilisation by 5000 years. The Harappan civilisation has been dated to about 2500 BC. The newly identified site "looks like a Harappan-type civilisation but dating way back to 7500 BC," said minister Murli Manohar Joshi.

However, he cautioned that a "more critical examination" of the finds must now be carried out.

Sharad Rajaguru, a former head of archaeology at the Deccan College in Pune, said: "These collections represent an exciting breakthrough in offshore archaeology. Further investigation of the area is important as this might throw light on the development of human civilisation, besides having a bearing on Indian history."

Joshi said the government is now forming a group of archaeological experts from institutes around the country to investigate further.

DoPeY5007
01-21-2002, 07:24 AM
that is some cool stuff :)

Grimm
01-21-2002, 11:39 AM
I'm thinking that they need to get some more samples. Not that I doubt their claims, it's just better to be sure.

El Scorcho
01-21-2002, 12:24 PM
yeah... if its just a few items they found (i dont know how many they found) then this may not be a city or civilization for that matter: just a tribe. Humans/Human ancestors have been around for, i think i heard, about 50,000 years. Tiger/Euprates settlements were the first civilizations as the article said so this one is a lot older than those.

Also, wasnt there some kiinda evidence of Atlantis off the Florida coast? I heard that a couple months ago i dont know what happened to it.

leemaj
01-21-2002, 12:40 PM
need some pics too

LPMiller
01-21-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by El Scorcho
yeah... if its just a few items they found (i dont know how many they found) then this may not be a city or civilization for that matter: just a tribe. Humans/Human ancestors have been around for, i think i heard, about 50,000 years. Tiger/Euprates settlements were the first civilizations as the article said so this one is a lot older than those.

Also, wasnt there some kiinda evidence of Atlantis off the Florida coast? I heard that a couple months ago i dont know what happened to it.

Actually, Atlantis is believed to have been found pretty much where Plato said it was. I don't remember the location, but it is a little island area that ended up mostly submerged after an earthquake, right around the time it should have happened. Sadly, the goverment around there - and I THINK it's greece - doesn't want anyone messing around there. But it's pretty much believed that it is where the Atlantis story comes from.

If I can find the link, I'll post it - I know I saw this on the history channel, but I saw so much of the history channel when I was out of work, I'm having a hard time remembering the whole thing.

Kevster
01-21-2002, 02:54 PM
LP,

I think you are referring to the Minoan civilization that was on either Crete or Santorini - There is nothing left of Santorini but the high cliff edges of the volcano island that was once there (blew itself apart and sank into the sea). I've been there - it's a pretty neat place.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what you're referring to.

Kevster

Windsor
01-21-2002, 03:59 PM
Carbon dating can be kinda fuzzy sometimes, though. Its not quite as absolute as they'd have us believe. Or so I've heard:). Unless you've got the expertise yourself, you end up believing one scientist or another.

Ladogaboy
01-21-2002, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Kevster
LP,

I think you are referring to the Minoan civilization that was on either Crete or Santorini - There is nothing left of Santorini but the high cliff edges of the volcano island that was once there (blew itself apart and sank into the sea). I've been there - it's a pretty neat place.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what you're referring to.

Kevster

I think you are right, Kevster. I can't remember where I read it, but there was also a program on the History channel that described the incident in detail.

As for humans... homosapiens have been around for atleast 100,000 years. I've only heard vaguely of the Indian civilization in the article, but of course, it was over-shadowed by Mesopotamia. :rolleyes:

Anyway, the thing is, there are remains of settlements in Australia that date back almost 40,000 years, but I guess the don't fit the definition of "civilization."

Either way, this is very interesting... IMO, there was never enough attention paid to early civilizations besides Mesopotamia. I'll be watching this with much interest. :D