dear abby - child porn

[attgig]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/03/13/dear.abby.arrest.ap/index.html



MILWAUKEE, Wisconsin (AP) -- A man who wrote to "Dear Abby" for advice on how to handle his fantasies about having sex with girls was charged Wednesday with possessing child pornography after the columnist turned him in, authorities say.

"Dear Abby" columnist Jeanne Phillips, the daughter of the column's founder, Pauline Phillips, called police after receiving the letter.

Jeanne Phillips, who shares her mother's pen name Abigail Van Buren, said she agonized over whether to report the man, since the column's credibility is based on the anonymity given those seeking her advice.

"I lost sleep, didn't sleep for days, because I really believe this man wrote to me genuinely seeking help," she told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. "I was torn, because my readers do turn to me for help, yet there was the priority of the safety of those young girls."

Phillips added: "I believe he was seeking help, and I hope that is considered and I hope he gets the help he so obviously needs."

She was said to be traveling Wednesday and did not return a call from The Associated Press.

The man, Paul Weiser, 28, was charged with three counts of possession of child pornography. The judge set his bail at $10,000, and ordered him to avoid computers and contact with anyone under 18. He was released Wednesday night; a family member who answered the door at his home declined comment.

Police said 40 pornographic photographs of children were found in his computer after his arrest Monday.

"He acknowledges he needs help and denies ever acting upon any desires," said prosecutor Paul Tiffin.

Weiser could get up to five years in prison and a $10,000 fine on each count, if convicted.

He did not speak during Wednesday's brief court hearing except to answer yes when the judge asked if he understood the proceedings. The judge also ordered Weiser to participate in a mental health program.

Tom Hayes, Weiser's attorney, said he hoped Phillips' call to the police would not deter others from seeking help. He declined further comment. A preliminary hearing was set for March 25.

Pauline Phillips created the "Dear Abby" column in 1956. Her daughter has contributed to the syndicated column since the early 1980s and took over most of the duties in the early 1990s. The column appears in more than 1,200 newspapers around the globe, according to Universal Press Syndicate.

The elder Phillips' twin sister, Eppie Lederer, is the advice columnist Ann Landers.


What would you have done if you were abby?
me, I wouldn't have turned him in.

[Speedfreak]

That takes balls to admit something like that. I he didn't want help, why would he come out and ask for it in a situation like this. I think he should have been helped.

[welfareloser]

you don't mess around with stuff like this. the girls in those photos were victims. demand for those photos drives the creation of more. that's why it's illegal. hopefully he gets the help that he wants, and i'm glad she turned him in.

[Kim]

What Welfare said!

[whitak24]

i think she shouldn't have turned him in. i can understand why she did, and i guess if he gets help, the problem will eventually be solved. but when someone writes in trying to get help, but is instead strung up, then i think that sets a bad precedent. people need to be able to find ways to get help for addictions without being in constant fear of going to jail.

[brainsmile]

he should have seen a shrink

[Merlin]

This is sad really. Clearly the man had a problem. He knew it and he reached out for help. Now rather than getting his head together and discreetly fixing his life, he'll be forever labeled a sex offender. Scarlet letter on him that will follow him everywhere. His life ruined. Yes, I know that it is his own fault. Nevertheless, when a person like this looks for help he should be encouraged not jailed.

Who out there really wants to open up to Dear Abby now?

So in the end, who was really helped by turning him in?

[Markel]

Consider a possible scenario: man later is found to be guilty of assaulting a girl. Investigation uncovers correspondence with "Dear Abby". "Dear Abby" is questionioned as to why she concealed this "potential criminal" and permitted him to remain free and go on to commit this horrible act. Can you spell s-c-a-n-d-a-l? I thought you could.

Put yourself in "Dear Abby's" position and decide if you should notify the authorities. I think she did the right thing.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by DarkFury
Professional Confidentiality versus Morality...???

Pretty hard issue there. Yeah he was wrong, but at the present he hadn't hurt anyone, maybe he could have gotten help BEFORE going to jail or something... I dunno. :2far:

he has hurt ppl. kids. if you disagree... do you think your opinion would change if it was your son that was kidnapped and molested to create porn images for ppl like him?

there are time when confidentiality has to be tossed. let's say you're a psychiatrist for a guy who brings in to an appointment... a human head. and says, yep, got another kid locked up in my basement, i'm gonna decapitate him tonight. OF COURSE you call the police. f*** your career, if it comes to that.

this issue isn't as clearcut, obviously. but it's the same idea. for her, sitting back and letting a man hurt kids wasn't worth preserving her credibility. good for her.

[chrissy]

I really think if he wanted help, good help, he would have gone to family or a church or a shrink.

Yeah, Dear Abby and Ann Landers is good for table manners and relationship opinions, but not stuff like this. This was too big of a situation to handle in an advice column. I would have done the same thing. She did what he asked. She got him help (be it in the jail system)and she probably saved someone in the long run.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by whitak24
but when someone writes in trying to get help, but is instead strung up, then i think that sets a bad precedent. people need to be able to find ways to get help for addictions without being in constant fear of going to jail.

he did something illegal and it's bad that he went to jail?!?!? he SHOULD be in fear of going to jail! he's addicted to SOMETHING ILLEGAL.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Merlin
Now rather than getting his head together and discreetly fixing his life, he'll be forever labeled a sex offender. Scarlet letter on him that will follow him everywhere. His life ruined. Yes, I know that it is his own fault. Nevertheless, when a person like this looks for help he should be encouraged not jailed.

Who out there really wants to open up to Dear Abby now?

So in the end, who was really helped by turning him in?

in the end HIS FUTURE CHILD VICTIMS were saved. he'll be labelled a sex offender because he IS A SEX OFFENDER.

[whitak24]

Originally posted by welfareloser


he did something illegal and it's bad that he went to jail?!?!? he SHOULD be in fear of going to jail! he's addicted to SOMETHING ILLEGAL.
well, to a certain extent i agree with you.
but i still think that if someone realizes that they have a problem (even if it's a problem doing something that is illegal) and they want to get help, they should be able to do so without automatically getting thrown in jail. otherewise, they will avoid gettting help and thereby continue their problem, which can only be negative in the long run.
i dunno......i think that treatment for a person who has a physical/mental/psychological problem which causes them to do something illegal is a better alternative (at least as a first shot) than sending them to jail.

[attgig]

good point whitak...
one analogy you can make are drug abusers. They're addicted. Will throwing them in jail solve the problem?
What will solve the problem?

Likewise, what the man was going through was an addiction.

and to go on with this analogy
from the info that we have:
drug addicts aren't growing the drugs...those were being grown overseas...
This guy wasn't taking the pictures...they were being taken overseas.

it should be the 'drug cartels' or the 'kiddie porn shops' who are the real targets.

[Merlin]

Originally posted by welfareloser


in the end HIS FUTURE CHILD VICTIMS were saved. he'll be labelled a sex offender because he IS A SEX OFFENDER.

What future victims? He was dropping out of the demand equation. Either through therapy or jail he was not going to be engaged in this behavior any longer so future victims is kind of a moot point.

[johnnymk]

So I guess if I have a copy of "Tom Sawyer", I am going to join the KU KLUX KLAN and hang a black on a cross; and if I possess the NRA's "American Freedom", I am going to go on a shooting rampage?
A couple of years ago, the local police closed down some head shops in New Hope for selling drug periphenalia( bongs, papers, etc). There was a slight public uproar but they still were successful in closing them down.
It seems that the potential threat of a future crime is becoming a greater threat to society than committing the actual crime itself.

Shades of "Thought Crimes" in George Orwell's book "1984"!!

[molecularfire]

I understand where you are coming from, but the article in question did not state that he ACTUALLY took the pictures of the kids... he was merely in possession of them.

First of all... I think (I'm trying to clarify a point, not put words in your mouth, so if I'm wrong please tell me) welfare's argument is that since he's getting the kiddie porn, he's creating a market for it which would stimulate it's production, not that he's actually making the kiddie porn.


Secondly, I agree with Markel that Abbie was definitely in a bad position. I don't know if I would've made the same decision (I personally would've flipped a coin. This is not my attempt to belittle the situation. I flip a coin to make choices that I don't see any good options. My theory... if you can't make the right decision, you might as well make a random one), but I can definitely understand her decision. Personally, I think there should be some sort of program for people who have these tendencies to get help without the law getting involved. If such programs existed (and I'm not referring to someone calling a shrink. I mean a real, legit program) then I would definitely get him put into that program.

On a side note, which ones of us have kids in this discussion. I think that the sides are alligned as people with kids and people without kids..., but I could be wrong. What are your guys inputs on this.
BTW: I do not have kids myself.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Merlin


What future victims? He was dropping out of the demand equation. Either through therapy or jail he was not going to be engaged in this behavior any longer so future victims is kind of a moot point.

to merlin, whitak, and df: he most likely dint take the pictures. he's still a criminal. he still has victims.

here's the point that i think some of you are missing: he's a criminal simply for downloading, and those children are HIS victims. (yes, of course the ppl who actually took the pictures are "bigger" criminals, but that doesn't mean that the downloader is not a criminal.) those pictures are taken to feed a demand. okay... so that picture he downloaded was already taken, he dint take it, damage already done, what does downloading it hurt? .... if nobody downloads the existing pictures, there is no demand in that black market, and future pictures will not be produced to feed a non-existent demand. (yes, i know, it's not an all-or-nothing thing, but the more demand, the more victims,much is certain.) when someone downloads these images, those on the production end will produce more. the downloader is a criminal. it's illegal for a very good reason.

we don't know if he was dropping out of the equation. he asked for help... but he coulda changed his mind. he commited an offence which is punishable by jailtime. i hope he does get the help he needs, and maybe jail wasn't appropriate for him, but SOMETHING certainly needed to be done, and the action taken may not have needed to have been as strong as "go directly to jail," but i think it needed to be stronger than "here's some voluntary counselling for ya, dude, glad you asked for help." because it's too easy for him to decide he doesn't like it and quit. if he's just fantasizing, fine. but he has acted on his fantasies by downloading images of crimes.

yes, johnnymk, it is very arguable that it is a much lesser crime than actually molesting a child himself, and he should not be punished for wanting to commit that crime without following through... and that's NOT what he's being punished for. he's being punished for the crime he DID commit.

[Merlin]

Originally posted by welfareloser
here's the point that i think some of you are missing: he's a criminal simply for downloading, and those children are HIS victims. (yes, of course the ppl who actually took the pictures are "bigger" criminals, but that doesn't mean that the downloader is not a criminal.) those pictures are taken to feed a demand. okay... so that picture he downloaded was already taken, he dint take it, damage already done, what does downloading it hurt? .... if nobody downloads the existing pictures, there is no demand in that black market, and future pictures will not be produced to feed a non-existent demand. (yes, i know, it's not an all-or-nothing thing, but the more demand, the more victims,much is certain.) when someone downloads these images, those on the production end will produce more. the downloader is a criminal. it's illegal for a very good reason.

we don't know if he was dropping out of the equation. he asked for help... but he coulda changed his mind. he commited an offence which is punishable by jailtime. i hope he does get the help he needs, and maybe jail wasn't appropriate for him, but SOMETHING certainly needed to be done, and the action taken may not have needed to have been as strong as "go directly to jail," but i think it needed to be stronger than "here's some voluntary counselling for ya, dude, glad you asked for help." because it's too easy for him to decide he doesn't like it and quit. if he's just fantasizing, fine. but he has acted on his fantasies by downloading images of crimes.


Great post. I agree (and I think we all do) that a crime was committed. The question then becomes how to handle it and what is Dear Abby's role. For the former, the judge will probably take into account his reaching out for help and not throw the book at him (at least I hope not, you know what happens to kiddie porn types in prision and nobody deserves that). As for Dear Abby, well I don't know that it was her place to turn someone in. Just my opinion.

[attgig]

Originally posted by welfareloser
if nobody downloads the existing pictures, there is no demand in that black market, and future pictures will not be produced to feed a non-existent demand. (yes, i know, it's not an all-or-nothing thing, but the more demand, the more victims,much is certain.) when someone downloads these images, those on the production end will produce more. the downloader is a criminal. it's illegal for a very good reason.


I think there's a whole in your argument.
Yes, downloading will create a demand, but as demand decreases - prices increase - which will allow the suppliers to possibly get more money. Also, this may draw other people who are looking to make money, because the price of one picture is so high - get rich quick scheme.
So, it's not strictly demand that will shrink supply. arrrg..
we can get into all the economics junk that I didn't learn in college :P, but ya know what I'm gettin at right?

it's just not that simple.

oh, and, in this sick and twisted world, there will always be demand.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by attgig


I think there's a whole in your argument.
Yes, downloading will create a demand, but as demand decreases - prices increase - which will allow the suppliers to possibly get more money. Also, this may draw other people who are looking to make money, because the price of one picture is so high - get rich quick scheme.
So, it's not strictly demand that will shrink supply. arrrg..
we can get into all the economics junk that I didn't learn in college :P, but ya know what I'm gettin at right?

it's just not that simple.

oh, and, in this sick and twisted world, there will always be demand.

two big holes in your argument.

just because there will always be a sick and twisted demand somehow lessens the wrongness of his demand? his demand is wrong, period, whether he's the only one or one of a million.

and i already said that i know it's not as simple as an economic teeter-totter. but his demand creates a supply. period. whether 10 or 1000 children are victimized to supply the demands of 1 or a million downloaders... are those downloaders somehow "less" guilty? let's say we assign him .0001% of the blame in the victimization of each of the children involved instead of 5%... does that make you feel any better about what he's done?

it doesn't me.

[Merlin]

Originally posted by attgig


I think there's a whole in your argument.
Yes, downloading will create a demand, but as demand decreases - prices increase - which will allow the suppliers to possibly get more money. Also, this may draw other people who are looking to make money, because the price of one picture is so high - get rich quick scheme.
So, it's not strictly demand that will shrink supply. arrrg..
we can get into all the economics junk that I didn't learn in college :P, but ya know what I'm gettin at right?

it's just not that simple.

oh, and, in this sick and twisted world, there will always be demand.

The way it works is if there is a structural change to decrease demand (either through therapy of jail :P ) then there will be fewer $ chasing the content out there. This will cause prices to fall. And in a high fixed cost low variable cost industry such as this prices will adjust quickly. When prices fall fewer operators will be able to profitably exist and will go off and find more lucrative lines of business. Yes, this will cause prices to stabilize but in the end there will be much less of the product out there. Think of it as the opposite of a growing market.

[oblongmelon]

Originally posted by Merlin
This is sad really. Clearly the man had a problem. He knew it and he reached out for help. Now rather than getting his head together and discreetly fixing his life, he'll be forever labeled a sex offender. Scarlet letter on him that will follow him everywhere. His life ruined. Yes, I know that it is his own fault. Nevertheless, when a person like this looks for help he should be encouraged not jailed.

Who out there really wants to open up to Dear Abby now?

So in the end, who was really helped by turning him in?

OMG Yeh he has a problem alright-he is one sick Mo'fo if you ask me..crimes against children (and to me that even means viewing child porn) is HEINOUS. I think they should castrate him, and send him to federal prison where he can find a real girlfriend named Bubba. The bastard. I don't feel sorry for people like this. How would you guys feel if it were some kid or the kid of someone you knew in those pictures. What a sick piece of Sh8t.

[whitak24]

Originally posted by DarkFury
DF's arguments
fury, you said it as well as i could have.
yes, there were victims to this crime, but my opinion is that the best way to reduce the number of future victims is to treat this man and people like him, and i don't think that is going to happen if there is more of a risk of landing in jail rather than getting real treatment.

[welfareloser]

i mostly agree with those two posts of df and whitak up there... putting this guy in traditonal jail isn't what's going to give society the best result. it does need to be recognized that he IS a criminal, however. thus, MANDATORY counselling - possibly on a nice estate with locks on the doors - would be a good idea. even if he is allowed to stay at home, he needs to be closely supervised. and he shouldn't be coachin little league anytime soon.

[welfareloser]

and another point... i heard the mention of "addiction." he may well be "addicted" to the idea and images of child molestation, but the addiciton isn't the real problem; the fact that he wants to do it at all is a problem with a different brain mechanism than the problem of addiction.

just some semantics, i guess, but i just wanted to point out that a 12-step program ain't quite gonna cut it.

if you're really interested in finding out how difficult it is to treat stuff like this, check out the journal of deviant behavior; i believe they have at least abstracts, if not full articles, online.

[jase71]

The problem here that I see with what Abby did was that she, in effect, punished him for trying to get help.

She took the one offender off the streets. But what did she do, and what did she teach all the other offenders out there who realize they need help but are maybe scared to ask?

They sure won't ask Dear Abby for help. And maybe they'll be scared to ask anyone for help. So they'll continue on, in their downward spiral, and rather than getting help, they'll probably eventually break down, give in, and become sex offenders.

Had she given this person the information that he sought, a way to get help and treatment, without turning him in, she might have done the greater good. Sure, he may or may not have actually gotten the help... but she might have made others more willing to come forward and seek help. She might have helped many, rather than just getting the one off the street. Which is more important, nailing the one? Or helping and preventing the many?

So she caught the one. But she taught all the others to keep your problem hidden. Don't admit it to anyone, and SURE as hell don't try and get help. You'll just end up in jail. Keep your mouth shut, your head down, and hope you don't get caught.

Dear Abby has relegated herself back to questions on manners, what's polite, and how to deal with nosy neighbors. She effectively killed any chance she had at helping people with more serious issues.

[oblongmelon]

I'm sorry but I don't believe counseling helps these people at all- If it did-then why do sex offenders have to register for the sex offender registry when they leave prisons? And why do school districts continue to send out notices (we got YET ANOTHER one today from the school district we are in) about these offenders. One of them was convicted of exactly the same crime that we are speaking of-possessing child pornography. He spent ALOT of time in the hooskow, but even now on his release after Much THERAPY they still consider him a risk. Chemical castration will help them out more than any kind of therapy. Thats my point and I'm stickin to it.

[welfareloser]

the poll no longer has enough options... i say:

turn him in... he needs help, and he's seeking it...

he deserves PUNISHMENT (maybe not jail time as a part of that punishment) and DON'T keep the law out of it.

[oblongmelon]

I agree-turn him in, and get him whatever kind of help he can get while he is locked up-but what other kind of punishment can he get that will do him any good? I mean seriously? Do you think some dowdy social worker is going to sit there and convince this guy that looking at this crap is wrong? NO WAY! He can sit and agree with whatever they have to say to make it seem like he's getting help..I'll give him two options. Castration-or a Lobotomy.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by oblongmelon
even now on his release after Much THERAPY they still consider him a risk. Chemical castration will help them out more than any kind of therapy. Thats my point and I'm stickin to it.

you're right; therapy alone doesn't help much at all. chemical castration does. i'll stop short of saying he has to be castrated... but he has almost no chance of getting better without a lifetime of vigilance, drug therapy, and regular therapy.

[johnnymk]

I wonder what's going to happen to the large number of priests who have been actually committing the abuses against their young victims? A slap on the wrist? Confinement to a special retreat within the walls of the sanctuary? Yeh, probably.. after a few months, it'll just blow over.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by johnnymk
I wonder what's going to happen to the large number of priests who have been actually committing the abuses against their young victims? A slap on the wrist? Confinement to a special retreat within the walls of the sanctuary? Yeh, probably.. after a few months, it'll just blow over.

i hope it's more than that... there needs to be more scrutiny and more openness or the problem will continue.

but you're probably right.

[chrissy]

He is sooo very right. It is something the church hides very well. Only recently has it become so popular in the press.

I have heard so many stories and then the church has so many denials, it's sick...

I had a friend who I used to work with in CA who grew up in Louisiana that was basically kicked out of his family because he was openly gay -- there, if you are gay, you become a priest. He was telling me stories upon stories about the abuse that goes on... :disa:

[molecularfire]

The problem here that I see with what Abby did was that she, in effect, punished him for trying to get help.
A whole lot of text in between that I think makes a good point, but there's no point in reposting it...
Dear Abby has relegated herself back to questions on manners, what's polite, and how to deal with nosy neighbors. She effectively killed any chance she had at helping people with more serious issues.

True... so here's my idea. We let this settle for a week or two. Then, the Dear Abby column posts a fake letter from the guy saying that he's now in this state program that's helping him through his deviant thoughts and how he's getting better. Make it a real good heartwarming story. That way... people will feel that writing to Dear Abby about these things is not a bad way to go. :bandit:

[mojo]

such good points brought up here! i dunno what to add, really...except that maybe he wanted to get caught. he knew it was wrong. he could have easily seen a therapist for it...but a therapist isn't gonna see to it that he's caught or whatever. he sent a letter to "dear abby." i dunno about you, but to me this is kinda like calling the "ask a nurse" hotline to ask about what you do when you crack your skull open and gray matter is showing.

as far as "dear abby" goes...i dunno if i'd ask her much at all. i'd rather ask "dear g|a community." at least you get more than one viewpoint.

[Showtime]

She has helped some poor child out there from becoming this guys 1st / 2nd / 3rd / next victim. He was one step away from acting on an impulse and one more step from abducting and killing some kid. Some people will never act on these "feelings" but im not willing to put some child in a potential situation on "maybe he will, maybe he won't act out." Once started, most pedaphiles will never lose these feelings. Imagine how you feel when you look at a person your very attracted to. These people feel some twisted sense of that when children walk by or are playing at the park.

The way i figure it:
1)If your looking at pictures etc of child porn than you need immediate forced help.
2)If help doesn't work you need to be issolated away from general society and especially children.
3)If that doesnt work you should kill yourself.
Since we don't have the resources to issolate these men we need to go to option 3. Since most of them care too much about themselves and are too cowardly to end it themselves we need another option.....
4)Kill them. Dont let them reproduce. Dont let them carry on these sick twisted fantasies. Find out stuff shrinks need to learn from each molester and than humanly put them in the ground.

There are groups of these sickos retionalizing and encouraging deviant behaivor. On the internet you can find all kinds groups that will encourage and explain how to victimize children. Some have been so bold to publically(from behind their puter, safely at home) say this a life style, a choice, like being gay or some just call it a "fetish." Its not like other lifestyles/fetishes. It hurts people.
Taking away basic human rights for someones pleasure is WRONG. Hurting an innocent is WRONG. The right answer is killing these predators. It would cause them to seriously think before abducting your child, sibling, niece, nephew, neighbor, etc. It would also help the human gene pool.
-jel
ps: feel free to flame. its so fashionable to protect someones life no matter what that person did.

[oblongmelon]

Bravo Jello. Thats all I gotta say about that.

[jase71]

I don't know..

Ala my earlier post, I still think she caught one, and made every other one out there fear ever asking for help.

Is it better to catch the one, if you make all the others fear seeking treatment and dealing with their problems?

[oblongmelon]

Originally posted by jase71
Is it better to catch the one, if you make all the others fear seeking treatment and dealing with their problems? Yes, because the % that actually seek treatment is almost nill. Catching one, means one less child to be victimized. And if it has to be that one child at a time is safe-then that's fine by me.

[mojo]

i don't think anyone said that what he did was right or ok or whatever. what he did was wrong...that much we have all agreed on.

i think what jase was getting at was that she had a chance to possibly help a lot of people. she shot her wad, so to speak. sure, she helped one person. but she could have helped him and many others.

let's say you're in a platoon and the enemy approaches. one person is leading the battle as a scout. you see the scout, and you hit him with all you got. well, while you're busy taking out the one, the rest of the enemy sees your platoon and decides to go another way. thing of it is, you could have nailed that one with less attention drawn and gotten the rest of the enemy as well.

i'm not saying that it would be as easy to snuff out the problem. i'm just saying that the answer may not be so simple as to turn in the 1 person.

[mojo]

i wonder if she could have done it as an anonymous tip?

[jase71]

Originally posted by oblongmelon
Yes, because the % that actually seek treatment is almost nill. Catching one, means one less child to be victimized. And if it has to be that one child at a time is safe-then that's fine by me.

But it wouldn't have taken many to impove the result.

If only TWO out of how many thousands had sought help, we'd be twice as well off as having caught one.

I think mojo hit it on the head. She had a chance to help a lot of people, to guide many of them to some form of treatment, where even if not cured, they could at least be identified.

Instead, she caught one.

Personally, I'd rather know about the 2 than to catch the one.

She caught the one, and sent the rest into hiding, where they'll be much, much harder to find, and deal with.

[verve247]

I think that favoring castration or total isolation is too easily writing off the situation without getting to the root off the problem. I don't think people ask to sexually favor children. It's a mental illness people, no different than schizophrenia (sidenote: shall we kill them too the jello is jigglin? you might get some ideas from Mein Kampf). A lot of these types know that it is wrong but have few options in dealing with this. It should be noted that once an individual is labeled as a sexual offender, this sticks for life, regardless of a rehabilitaion.

So now we have a society that says if you think of commiting a heinous act we will throw you in prison and give you a permanent scarlet letter. Great, now all of the sexual deviants will go into hiding and find fringe groups that support their behavior instead of finding professional treatment to resolve what psychological issues they might have. Offerring help does not mean that you accept the behavior. Encouraging people to be open with their problems so that it can be probaly resolved can only really eradicate this behavior.

-edit sp.

[Mike_N_Ike]

Man, I wish I had caught this thread earlier - I don't want to repeat a bunch of stuff that has been said already. All of my thoughts on this issue can be found in Welfare's posts.

[chrissy]

Originally posted by verve247
Great, now all of the sexual deviants will go into hiding and find fringe groups that support their behavior instead of finding professional treatment to resolve what psychological issues they might have. Offerring help does not mean that you accept the behavior. Encouraging people to be open with their problems so that it can be probaly resolved can only really eradicate this behavior.



as for all of the sexual deviants going into hiding, well, they start out there. It's when that switch in the brain turns on and that "deviant" realizes that it's sick and bad that he/she comes out and gets help.

When it comes to behavior like this, why are you (not you, but a lot of people here in the forums) so worried about the "scarlet letter" branded on them for life? Yes, I am a mom and yes I want to know if someone has had past behavior. Habits are hard to break. And I do believe that if someone has that urge, it does carry with them through out their lives. Even after rehab. They might beable to control the urge a little better but just like an alcoholic, they live with that urge everyday. And if you flaunt it in front of them (neighborhood kids in a pool minding their own business, etc), a slip will happen. As a parent, I have the right to protect my children and yes it is my business to know if the new guy on the block just got out of jail on this charge or other related ones.

[jase71]

Originally posted by chrissy


as for all of the sexual deviants going into hiding, well, they start out there. It's when that switch in the brain turns on and that "deviant" realizes that it's sick and bad that he/she comes out and gets help.


That, I think, was the point, though.

When the deviant realizes that he's sick and bad, and wants to come out and get help, what options does he have? None, really.

He can't ask for help now, because it's the same as just turning himself in. An automatic jail sentence. How many people are going to ask for help if help means an automatic prison sentence? Not many.

As it is now, he stands a better chance of staying out of jail if he DOESN'T ask for help. There's at least a chance he won't get caught for being a pedophile. If he turns himself in, it's an automatic trip to jail. So where's the incentive to ask for help?

I'm happy one sex offender is off the streets. But it makes me wonder how many more just got very much less likely to be caught to get that single one.

[welfareloser]

quote: jase: stuff....


okay... but is the problem what abby did, or the system of punishment and treatment? she was hampered by the system that hampered him. her options were limited by a crappy system. i think she chose the best oprion.

[jase71]

Originally posted by welfareloser

okay... but is the problem what abby did, or the system of punishment and treatment? she was hampered by the system that hampered him. her options were limited by a crappy system. i think she chose the best oprion.

Personally, I think the problem is what Abby did.

She's not the police, she's not a social services worker, or a teacher, or anything even similar. She's an advice columnist.
And rather than giving advice, she stepped into the realm of enforcement.

That undermines her credibility. Now, rather than having a place to ask for advice on difficult situations, people will have to weigh the fact that if they even ask for help, they may be turned in. She has effectively made sure no one will ever ask her for help on a controversial topic again, for fear of being tracked down and jailed.

If she had, instead, used her column to list ways these people could receive help, where to turn, who to go to, how many could she have helped? How many people might have taken that information and used it to get some sort of treatment? How many potential pedophiles might have sought help, and even if they hadn't been "cured", at least allowed themselves to be identified by the system?

She had the chance to be a conduit, to guide many of these people into programs that would identify them, track them, and treat them if possible. At the very least, we'd know who many more of them are. And knowing who they are and identifying them is the hardest part of the battle.

Instead she caught the one, and made sure no one will ever take a chance like that in seeking help again. She basically killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

JMHO, of course. It was her call to make, not mine. And I respect how difficult a decision it must have been. The path she chose will probably rest easier on her conscience than the alternative. I just think that alternative might have been more productive in the long run.

[Jeffbx]

Originally posted by jase71

She basically killed the goose that laid the golden egg.


Nah, not really -

She always has the option to list this information at any time, which she probably should do.

The thing to keep in mind here is that having *thoughts* about abusing a child is different than possesing kiddie porn or abusing a child. A person can always ask for help BEFORE they commit a crime, and they don't have anything to worry about.

Unfortunately, this yahoo went ahead & committed a crime first, THEN asked for help. OK, it was good that he was seeking help, but he also needs to be punished for breaking the law. If I was in her position, I would have done the same thing Abby did.

[attgig]

man, this is a crazy topic, but seriously..
i agree with vere's statementI think that favoring castration or total isolation is too easily writing off the situation without getting to the root off the problem.


and also.... these people (mental deviants i see is the new phrase)are having problems and they need real help. Asking Abby usually isn't the solution that most people go for, but if this guy really realizes that he's doing something wrong....shame and condemnation are the biggest things that are attacking him. Going to somebody for help is NOT easy. Anonimity is usually the easiest way to seek help. Asking some advice columnist seems anonymous enough.

I'm not trying to make excuses for this dude, but I feel a lotta you guys are just condemning this guy and telling him he shouldn't be a part of the 'in' crowd....whoever that may be.
he needs help and pouring shame and condemnation over the guy just is not the best way to usually offer him help.

u know...hate the sin/love the sinner type of thinking.

[jase71]

Originally posted by Jeffbx


Nah, not really -

She always has the option to list this information at any time, which she probably should do.

True, she could. But she's already taught the lesson that if you ask for help, you'll go to jail. Anyone using the information she posted would probably fear exactly the same thing from whoever they sought out for help.



The thing to keep in mind here is that having *thoughts* about abusing a child is different than possesing kiddie porn or abusing a child. A person can always ask for help BEFORE they commit a crime, and they don't have anything to worry about.

Great in theory. But you still then just guarantee that anyone who's already committed the crime can't and won't seek help. They're beyond the point of no return.



Unfortunately, this yahoo went ahead & committed a crime first, THEN asked for help. OK, it was good that he was seeking help, but he also needs to be punished for breaking the law. If I was in her position, I would have done the same thing Abby did.

I guess I see it from a different perspective. I think it's more important to prevent these kind of crimes in the future than it is to catch any one particular crook. Sometimes it's the realization that they've broken a law that makes people realize they need help. But by your position, it's already too late for them then.

By sending people asking for help to jail, you make people reluctant to ask for help. If you make people reluctant to ask for help, they won't seek it out. And if they don't get help, there's only one outcome in the long run. They'll give in sooner or later to their desires. So you've caught one, and made sure 10 or 100 others have no way out of their downward spiral, except jail. I guess I'd be willing to give up on catching the one if I had the chance to keep those other 10 or 100 from following the same path.

Just seems like a forest for the trees kind of issue to me.

But that's my last post on it, since I'm basically down to repeating myself... and I don't want to stoke up any tempers... ;)

[verve247]

I believe in Canada it is legal to own kiddie porn. They believe it will satiate the deviants mind from acting out on his desires. Sorta like getting his "fix." Of course it is illegal to produce kiddie porn (they must get it from overseas where it is either condoned or the age of consent is either very low or doesn't exist).


oh and it totally agree that a sex offender should not be allowed to live in a residential complex where children are present, that's like putting a fox in the henhouse. So maybe it is a good idea to be labelled, but who gets to see this information and how it is used should be altered.

[johnnymk]

VICTIM CALLS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH A "SAFE HAVEN FOR PEDOPHILES"
Patrick McSorley, who was victimized by a priest when he was a boy, calls the Catholic Church a "safe haven for pedophiles"
("Scandal Shaking Catholicism to Core," Los Angeles Times, Mar. 13, 2002).
He is referring to former priest John Geoghan, who was convicted in January of sexual child abuse. This one priest alone is suspected of abusing some 120 boys, and that is only the tip of the iceberg. The Catholic Church has long protected child abusers and covered up their crimes. In Boston, prosecutors have the names of some 90 priests suspected of child abuse At least 84 others have been accused in other states this year. In the last 20 years, the Catholic Church in America has paid between $600 million and $1.3 billion to quiet sexual abuse victims. On March 8, BishopAnthony O'Connell of Palm Beach, Florida, resigned after admitting that he sexually abused a youth 25 years ago at a Catholic seminary. O'Connell's predecessor in Palm Beach resigned under similar circumstances.

[mojo]

Originally posted by johnnymk
In Boston, prosecutors have the names of some 90 priests suspected of child abuse At least 84 others have been accused in other states this year. well, i wonder how many of these accusations and allegations are true? i mean...being in san diego, i gotta remember the dale akiki incident back in '93. he was accused of and found to be innocent of 35 counts of child abuse. i mean...accusations are one thing. but they're just not all true.

[Showtime]

Originally posted by verve247
I think that favoring castration or total isolation is too easily writing off the situation without getting to the root off the problem. I don't think people ask to sexually favor children. It's a mental illness people, no different than schizophrenia (sidenote: shall we kill them too the jello is jigglin? you might get some ideas from Mein Kampf). A lot of these types know that it is wrong but have few options in dealing with this. It should be noted that once an individual is labeled as a sexual offender, this sticks for life, regardless of a rehabilitaion.

-edit sp.

Your so wrong! Schizophrenia is a mental illness that most people have no choice about. Molesting children is a learned and decision based behaivor that is about power not sex.
Some predators were themselves victimized and continue the cycle. Others started down a road filled with porn and other mainstream media and gradually went from one form to the next. They basically got bored with each type and kept having to find a new forms of pornography to satisfy themselves. Some just snap and due to a preconditioned response or some internal trigger decide they want to dominate children. In all the different cases that lead up to men molesting children there is one common thing i see, that is inability to do what is morally right. They can't or are unwilling to control themselves. When a thought enters their mind, instead of saying no to that thought, they allow it to stew in their minds. Eventually it becomes a fantasy and they become consumed with this new "game" they want to try.
On the internet there are rooms filled with these men. Some have no real relationships and are unable to get any partner of similiar status(age etc) so they force themselves on defenseless children. Many are married, professionals with good jobs and are well respected in their communities. They sit and chat openly about trying to get at children. They talk of various techniques and tricks they use or want to try. Than they go out and engage in various types of sick behaivor. They have crossed the line. They feel empowered when actually they are enslaved. There is no redemption or reforming for most offenders. Like rabid dogs they should be put to sleep before they infect others. This is not creating an elite race this is removing the cancer so all races can raise their children in a safer world. I dont need to understand the predator, stopping "it" is enuff.
-jel

[verve247]

Originally posted by the jello is jigglin
Your so wrong! Schizophrenia is a mental illness that most people have no choice about. Molesting children is a learned and decision based behaivor that is about power not sex.

No, actually you are wrong.

When does [child] pornography use develop?

Bates (1996) found that nearly 80% of sex offenders interviewed started having deviant fantasies between 11 and 15 years of age; 17% were older than 15 years.

linky: http://www.kidsap.org/DynamicsOfChildMolesters.htm

Child molesters just use their power as an access to taking advantage of the child. I think that you are confusing yourself with general rape. In the case of child molesters it actually appears that children are needed to achieve sexual gratifdication (whether by fantasy or actual acts). Now if that way of thinking is not a mental illness then i don't know what is.

[QUOTE]Some predators were themselves victimized and continue the cycle. [QUOTE]

No actually few victims become molesters.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:qaK__ggatNMC:www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_5544.html+sexual+deviant+child+molest+%25&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1

[QUOTE]On the internet there are rooms filled with these men. Some have no real relationships and are unable to get any partner of similiar status(age etc) so they force themselves on defenseless children. Many are married, professionals with good jobs and are well respected in their communities. They sit and chat openly about trying to get at children. They talk of various techniques and tricks they use or want to try. Than they go out and engage in various types of sick behaivor. They have crossed the line. They feel empowered when actually they are enslaved. [QUOTE]

Now wouldn't it be nice if there were places for these men who can't function normally in our society? An institutiuon or support group that does not condone their behaviour (like the chat rooms) but instead tries to get them to come to terms with their deviant thoughts and maybe even correct them. Now i have no data to back this up, mainly because there are too many obstinate people such as yourself that see harsher punishments as the only solution. This just doesn't work, look at the war on drugs or anti-discrimination laws. They doesn't solve the problem, it only gets the offender to be more devious and sly in escaping the law. I believe this is what Jase71 and others are trying to get across.

[QUOTE]There is no redemption or reforming for most offenders. Like rabid dogs they should be put to sleep before they infect others. This is not creating an elite race this is removing the cancer so all races can raise their children in a safer world. I dont need to understand the predator, stopping "it" is enuff.
-jel [QUOTE]

Actually here you are correct. it seems that most continue after being released. If you read the link below it seems that they can't control their urges and eventually cave in. Again, they are not given any form of longterm counseling or treatment after their prison sentence.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/collateral/research8.html


To understand the predator is the only way to remove the predator.

[Showtime]

I think some are confusing the issues.
What about the rights of the victims. They are in no way consenting to this.
All the data and statistics, which can be mulnipulated to show whatever the researcher wants to show, doesn't mean **** to the child victimized by these deviants. Psycologist arent looking for a cure. They need messed up people to make a living. To them its just a fascinating case. "Don't kill our case studys they are interesting and help explain things we want to learn."
If deviants only hurt themselves its one thing but destroying some child for gratification is unacceptable.
Fancy books and studies dont help the victims. IF YOU CAN GUARANTEE THAT REHAB WORKS, than there would be more validity to your argument. Since you CANT guarantee rehabilitation works in even one individual you have very little ground to stand on. Keep trying to defend them while children keep getting abused. F!@# that S!@#.
Child molesting should be punishable by death. If someone did it to you, what would you want? If they did it your siblings or kids or someone close to you what would you want to do. If you could get at the molester without getting caught would you kill him? Dont lie just to argue, there are times when death is a valid punishment.

[molecularfire]

What about the rights of the victims. They are in no way consenting to this.

Agreed.


All the data and statistics, which can be mulnipulated to show whatever the researcher wants to show, doesn't mean **** to the child victimized by these deviants. Psycologist arent looking for a cure. They need messed up people to make a living. To them its just a fascinating case. "Don't kill our case studys they are interesting and help explain things we want to learn."

Interesting argument. This effectively devalidifies all data that can be obtained objectively or subjectively that doesn't support your case. However, this is not an argument, so much as a blanket accusation.


If deviants only hurt themselves its one thing but destroying some child for gratification is unacceptable. IF YOU CAN GUARANTEE THAT REHAB WORKS, than there would be more validity to your argument. Since you CANT guarantee rehabilitation works in even one individual you have very little ground to stand on.

Based on this... anyone who commits any crime at all should be put to death, because no rehab system even claims to be 100% effective.


Keep trying to defend them while children keep getting abused. F!@# that S!@#.

Personally, I'm not trying to defend these people. I think they are really really messed up and want to stop them. I however, don't like the idea of trying to solve any problem with blind rage.


Child molesting should be punishable by death. If someone did it to you, what would you want? If they did it your siblings or kids or someone close to you what would you want to do. If you could get at the molester without getting caught would you kill him? Dont lie just to argue, there are times when death is a valid punishment.

I have no intention of lying. If someone molested me or someone that I knew, yes I would want to hurt them really badly. In fact, there is a part of me that wants to hurt the guy that wrote the letter to dear abby, even though I don't know anyone that he has hurt personally (I do agree that he has hurt people). If I could kill him without getting caught... I'd lie if I didn't say the thought appealed to me. However, what separates me from him, is that I do not give in to my desires. I try to understand the situation and how to best deal with it instead of going in guns blazing. I also agree that there are times when death is a valid punishment. Personally, I am of the opinion that the death penalty is not used often enough (but that's another argument, and I'm NOT going to get involved in it here). However, my main objective is to stop the problem, not kill the culprits.

I feel the same things you feel. I just don't think anger is the way to deal with the situation. :)

[mojo]

Originally posted by molecularfire
I however, don't like the idea of trying to solve any problem with blind rage. this is very important. getting to the root of the problem and trying to find a solution that makes sense is more wise and effective than just going off half-cocked and getting the one.

a topic like this one can flare some tempers. however, let's remember that we all agree that the nature of the problem is bad. nobody here said otherwise...we're just trying to approach it in different ways. inaction would be the worst way to deal with it...and nobody proposed that.

another concern i've had on this is that i wonder if abby would turn in someone who is referred to by a scheming, round-about tipster? that's not the case here, but if she's into turning in her "clients" (using that very loosely here), then what's to keep someone from doing a little anonymous "dear abby, i know a guy who is a child molester and he wants help..." she already took it upon herself to turn in one...why not another? maybe whimsical fancy...but just the thought of this bugs. one day you piss off a neighbor and the next day the feds are monitoring your internet and watching you walk to the corner store. a little neighborly retribution, perhaps. of course the neighbor could go directly to the cops as an anonymous tipster, but then again it's even more anonymous through abby...

[attgig]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/03/18/fbi.child.porn/index.html

seems like they're really cracking down...

also seems like sexual child abuse more common than most people think it is....

[molecularfire]

Yeah!!!! The more of those #$%@$$#@ they get off the street, the better.