Reparations for Slavery

[psycho-]

What do you guys think about this article?

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/African_American_News


I have a formulated opinion, but I want to know what you guys think.

[eSDee]

Come on psycho you can't do that. Tell us what you think.

I think that it's a good idea that these companies make some sort of reparation if they were indeed involved in profitting on slavery. I think that just like the Tobacco companies that are getting the shaft because they lied for so many years, these companies should be held accountable for something that we have deemed such a travesty. I think that it will force companies to think about what they are endorsing before doing so, so that future companies with resource don't take advantage of a situation just because it can make them a buck.

As far as the reparation, I think that a monetary settlement might not be the best solution. The price tag of over a trillion dollars is a bit obsurd, so I think that another gesture from the companies might be better such as donating money for a national park or museum or something like that. Perhaps create a series of libraries across the US(one smack dab in the middle of the South) named in honor of the families of the slaves that were put through such injustice.

Just a thought. Flame away.

[Cantacuzene]

EVERY ethnic group in the world was opressed at some point or another in history so theoretically we could all be owed money by someone or some country. People should admit that mistakes made in the past are done and try to move on. No one alive today in the US was a slave so I don't see how anyone desreves slavery reparation money. I mean holocaust survivors are still alive, but all the slaves are long dead, as should be this issue.

[oblongmelon]

I agree with Cantacuzene on this one..The world was a different place back then. I say this is a matter of beating a dead horse over and over and over again..If everyone sued because of work their ancestors did to build up this country then I should be in for a hell of alot of money somewhere along the line. Think about the coal miners, the chinese railway workers etc that also helped build the foundationary pillars of this country. If they start handing out the dole to one group =you can be assured the rest will be in line with their hands out.

[sbp]

I'm going to put a claim in that the Irish and their descendants should get reparations in the form of a continuous supply of Guinness for being treated like crap.

[oblongmelon]

And I'll put one in for the Italians for a continuous supply of Parmagiano Reggiano (that sh*t is expensive) for the decendants because we had to work construction and make pasta for the cities that continually treated the irish like crap.now sbp come shine my shoes would you?

[jase71]

Originally posted by sbp
I'm going to put a claim in that the Irish and their descendants should get reparations in the form of a continuous supply of Guinness for being treated like crap.

sbp, I love ya, man!

I'm all up for that, being a good part Irish myself. :D

Seriously, though... I'd be all for reparations if we had any way to compensate the people that were brought over involuntarily. Or even their children.

But we're several generations removed now. No one brought over on a slave ship, or their immediate children, are still alive. At some point, we have to cut the cord and move on.

Otherwise, what's the difference between a slave brought over 250 years ago, and a Gaul pushed off his land by the Romans 2000 years ago? Time? Are the decendants of northern European tribes demanding reparations from modern day Romans?

Slavery is a horrible chapter in our history. But it's an earlier chapter. We've moved well beyond it. And as badly as we treated those people, it's in the past.

Besides, if African Americans have a claim, it opens up an even bigger claim by Native Americans. They've got an even stronger claim, given the legal treaties that were broken.

We can't repair history...

[EdtheSped]

What about the Native Americans? They were also shafted pretty bad,and still are.

[Memo]

Just as the descendents of slave owners shouldn't be responsible for what their ancestors did, descendants of slaves shouldn't be entitled to money for sufferings their ancestors endured. Just a bunch of bastards trying to get an easy buck.

[Hopper1]

I agree that the reparations are not right. These people were never slaves why should they get that money. There ancestors are the ones entitled to anything.

[Bvalkor]

"There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the negro race before the public. Some of these people do not want the negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs. There is a certain class of race-problem solvers who don't want the patient to get well.


Booker T. Washington, 1911 "

(PS-- Booker T. was a black man)

[welfareloser]

i pretty much agree with df... i've always thought it was a good idea.

the "only" problem... and i say "only" with the quotes because it is a huge one... is the slippery slope thing... if we pay off our country's biggest injustice, why not pay off the next biggest (american indians... and no, i DON'T want to talk about how to properly rank all these injustices... i don't care if you think #1 should be #3, etc, so don't even mention it... cuz it doesn't change my original point. /end pre-emptive scolding) and then the chinese railway workers... and the japanese internment campers... and the mexican migrant workers... etc.

something oughtta happen to prove that the "oops, sorry bout that" is at least half-@$$ed sincere, but paying off descendants... well, durnit, the money just isn't going to come out of the pockets of the fatcats. period. if it did, great, i'd probly be all for it. but those companies are going to lay off workers or do something else that hurts the little ppl (or at least littler ppl, like stockholders) to preserve the fat riches of the top execs.

and, unfortunately, suddenly throwing money at a group of people that hasn't had any for 200 years isn't going to fix much. i'd like to see the playing field levelled, but that isn't gonna do it. i will now take this opportunity to recite my soapbox litany: MASSIVE AND INTENSE RACIAL AND GENDER SENSITIVITY TRAINING FOR ALL TEACHERS, ESPECIALLY GRADE SCHOOL TEACHERS, so they know damn well where there tendencies to discriminate lie and how best to combat them. only way we're ever going to get anywhere, dammit.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Bvalkor
"There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the negro race before the public. Some of these people do not want the negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs. There is a certain class of race-problem solvers who don't want the patient to get well.


Booker T. Washington, 1911 "

(PS-- Booker T. was a black man)

*gasp* a black man said something bad about other blacks! he must be stunningly right!

ah, the tried and true technique of quoting someone who, despite being "one of them" (whoever the "them" may be) sides with your opinion, thus lending him massive credibility... :rolleyes:

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by welfareloser


*gasp* a black man said something bad about other blacks! he must be stunningly right!

ah, the tried and true technique of quoting someone who, despite being "one of them" (whoever the "them" may be) sides with your opinion, thus lending him massive credibility... :rolleyes:
that's what i was thinking WL. thansk for saying a lot better than i would have.

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by DarkFury
/me contemplates whether or not I should even say anything in this thread... since it has great potential to get really ugly in here. :disa:...

...And what created this "old money"... yes, the labor of my and other's ancestors. Whether it be the building of the railroad system to the West, or the tilling of the soil in the South, the economy of this nation was built upon the backs of people who never (and will never) get their fair compensation...

i give you much credit for stepping into this arena DF. i read the article and decided i didn't want to get into this, but after reading your response i gotta say i commend you for getting in this and i agree with you.

the points you made about "old money" are sure to be anwsered with, "well, none of that old money is mine. my family is/was blah blah blah." to those i must say, the fact that your family and mine could come to this country and live and work relatively freely is an advantage in itself. think about, most of our families are "immigrants" from somewhere or another (save for Naive Americans, but y'all know that anyway). i wouldn't exactly call African slaves "immigrants." the hardship that my family (Belgian and Palestinian in case you're wondering) and other, mostly European and Asian immigrants, endured IS NOT comparable to that of black people in the US simply because we chose to come here. We were not captured, shipped here in death- and feces-filled cargo holds, and then forced to work or die. I understand the hard times that the irish and italians and everyone else went through at some point or another. my family's got stories just like everyone else. the current immirgants that are hated by the US are Latinos, particularly Mexicans, although this may shift to arabs soon (but that's a whole other thread). My point is that the experience of discrimination in US from Italians, Irish, and even Mexicans IS NOT comparable nor equivalent to black people in the US so please, don't try.

Acknowleging the suffering and rights of other people doesn't dimish your own people's suffering or rights, so for those who are getting defenseive about "reparations" cuz they don't cover your people, take a step back and think about what slavery really was. Think about the living conditions, the beatings, the emotional and psychological as well as physical assault, and the pain that bulit over 250 years. Right here, stop reading and think. Resume reading my post in a few minutes after you've had time to think and reflect on stuff.

...<thinking time>...

And just a little bit about the article itself. I honestly don't think that the insurance companies should be included in reparations. They made a living selling insurance. It sucks, but they didn't start nor perpetute slavery. They were vultures and capitalized on it, but i don't think they can be held responsible. As for the companies that implemented slave labor for their profit, i think they do have a debt to pay.

And to be honest, no sum of money is going to "repair" anything. It may make times a bit easier, but nothing can make up for that. I got more to say, but i'm sick of typing. I'll probably jump back into the ring at a later time.

[Bvalkor]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welfareloser:

*gasp* a black man said something bad about other blacks! he must be stunningly right!

ah, the tried and true technique of quoting someone who, despite being "one of them" (whoever the "them" may be) sides with your opinion, thus lending him massive credibility...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BrewMaster:

that's what i was tjinking WL. thansk for saying a lot better than i would have.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Are you done flaming me????? You both got it out of your system.

[Wizard]

Instead of nitpicking the previous posts. I am only going to post my opinion. This is it:

This is a good move. The US promised a lot to the slaves and hasn't given anything in return for the promises. I hope the Native Americans organize themselves and do the same thing soon.

The US Government should be held accountable for it's decisions of the past and the treaties and promises it made with people!

[molecularfire]

Ok... I'm not gonna touch the native american issue. This thread isn't about it, and to be honest... I'm not exactly sure what my opinion on that is. Here's my opinion on the slavery lawsuit. Slavery was a very bad thing. :angry: That being said, get over it. If the slaves were here today, I would side with them. Saying that your grandfather was a slave, IMO does not entitle you to free money. IMO, the slaves are used enough as it is, I don't see any reason for blacks today to use their names anymore. I know... these companies used slaves to make money. There is absolutely nothing that can be done to undo that. Descendents of slaves don't deserve reparations.


However, as taught to me some time ago by one of my history teachers back in college, the exponential factor of the cost of that labor back then has financially hindered my race from ever getting a strong foothold in the economy today.
This kind of thinking is what's hindering blacks from ever getting a strong foothold in the economy today. It's good to know your history, because it prevents you from repeating it, that's true. However, if you harp too much on the past, how are you going to move forward? If blacks want to make sure that they get treated right in this country, then take steps to make sure that it happens. Race doesn't define rights... power and money does.

[Cantacuzene]

If a son or daughter of a slave was still alive, then give him/her the money, fine with me. Also, if you're black and unless your family came from jamaica or something your ancestors were slaves. I don't know what the final money figure will be but divided evenly among all african americans wont amount to much. "What are you going to buy with your $.40?"

Its just a bad idea. If they were serious about this they could sue Great Britain too, because the majority of slaves were imported to SOuth Carolina during colonial rule.

All this is going to do is open a can of worms that will spiral into retardedness. EVERYONE has had an ancestor who has been a slave depending on how far back you go in history. I bet most of our families lived as serfs on a manor for almost 1000 years, for no pay basically as slaves. Should we white folk sue Britain, Spain, France, Germany, Russia, etc? I think not, but our claim is equally as valid.

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by DarkFury
Now with that being said... how do you propose that a Black man go about getting "treated right"? You generally can't just walk in there and just say so can you? Obviously we would need some help... right? (But I am not saying that reparations are the answer to that question either...)

Apply yourself in high school, get good grades. Apply to a good college. Get in easily because of race + good grades. Apply yoruself as an undergrad, get good grades. Apply to a prestigous grad school for your MBA. Work hard, graduate top of your class. Get an awesome job right out of college because you are a man of color and a prestigous degree and graduated top of your class. BEgin making hundreds of thousands of dollars. Invent wisely. Raise a family, teach them to be achievers as well. Repeat cycle for a few generations and you have a thriving and monied black, mexican, etc community.

Don't say it can't happen because it definitly can if you have talent and work hard.

[Bvalkor]

DarkFury:

Thanks for the "quote" tip. I did not know that.

I did do some reading about Booker Washington. From reading your links and the information I read it appears that the authors have different opinions about Booker. Unfortunately, this is the way it is, authors tainting facts with their personal opinions.

Anyway, thanks for the linkage. :)

[Memo]

My family has only been in the country for about 15 years and my father earns what would be considered above average income. Coming here to the US he worked his way through school while supporting us and his school doing dead end jobs (yes, he even mowed lawns). 8 years later he became a doctor and I'd say we are pretty well off now. Yet not too long ago my entire family was sleeping in a 1 bedroom apartment in the nasty part of NYC on a air mattress set on the floor. I have trouble seeing how a black family that has been here for 100 years is unable to have advanced while ours has in the short time we've been here. I realize this isn't the norm, but if a recently immigrated Mexican with a language barrier can do it, why can't a Black man?

[Wizard]

Originally posted by UT Memo
My family has only been in the country for about 15 years and my father earns what would be considered above average income. Coming here to the US he worked his way through school while supporting us and his school doing dead end jobs (yes, he even mowed lawns). 8 years later he became a doctor and I'd say we are pretty well off now. Yet not too long ago my entire family was sleeping in a 1 bedroom apartment in the nasty part of NYC on a air mattress set on the floor. I have trouble seeing how a black family that has been here for 100 years is unable to have advanced while ours has in the short time we've been here. I realize this isn't the norm, but if a recently immigrated Mexican with a language barrier can do it, why can't a Black man?

Your life has been many many times more difficult than mine. My family is from a line of immagrants from Sweden, Germany, Spain, and Lebanon. Both sides of the family are well educated on my mohters' side almost every single one of my cousins already has an MD and on my father's he comes from a line of three generations that attended Ivy League schools. I have never known poverty or hunger in my life and I have always had comfort. BUT my name is Johann Ramirez and because of that last name I have known discrimination. Do I look hispanic? NO. Do I speak with an accent? NO. Does my father look hispanic? NO Does my mother look hispanic? NO. Have they experience discrimination? YES. Both my parents have doctorates but they are often times looked down upon. My father graduated from Harvard and my mom is part of the Royal Academy of Spanish in Spain which is overseen by the king and queen of Spain. Do they experience opression? Yes my parents do experience oppresion.

Now the point of this is simple.

My family represents the top 5% of American society but because of their last name they are often looked down upon by people that are far inferior to them in society. For me I shudder to think about what it must be like to not be in the top 5% of American society, and to be seen as being different. I am not black and I definately do not have an outer appearance of being hispanic, but yet because of my last name I have been looked down upon. I shudder to even try to imagine what it must be like to wake up being different and having to live out oppression every day of my life. Anyone that thinks that oppression doesn't exist today is kidding him/her self. I am proud to be an American and I will fight for my country to the death if need be. My pride in America does not allow me to disregard the agreements and treaties that we made with our own citizens. If the US made a deal with past slaves we (as Americans) should do EVERYTHING in our power to fulfill the agreements our forefathers made.

[mojo]

all this talk about trying to get a free buck and stuff is just...let's just say it's overly simplistic. there is more to it than that. we just live at a time when money speaks for us more often, because we just plain don't like each other enough to talk and reason. the same people that are being sued have made livings suing others. their defense of "we had nothing to do with slavery" is bs...as the companies themselves wouldn't be in the standing they are today if it weren't for the money they made off of slaves.

there aren't people being punished here...as it's company money that is being sought. sure, stockholders may see a change, but they could also invest in other companies. people should consider where their money comes from. if you invest in a company and later find out they do testing on animals or something, you might want to seek other companies in which to invest...so in this case you may find out something you don't like about the company and do the same.

let's say you belong to a rich family. then later on you find out that your father's money on which you lived all your life, never having to work as hard as the next person, was all made from killing people in one way or another. then your father passes away...and someone comes knocking on your door talking about reparations. is it really "punishing" you that the other people want what is rightfully theirs? oh no....you might have to go out and work like regular people? *gasp* heck no! something bad happened, and you are better off than the people that died for your way of life.

just because this happened so long ago does not mean that there aren't families that are very rich from the slave trade and slave labor. calling people money grubbers or whatever you like doesn't take away from the fact that their families came from a long history of hardships that should have been compensated labor if nothing else. saying "get over it" is the same as saying "i don't care." what is happening in this country that we don't care about each other? we want to write everyone off as not being legitimate or whatever. we have to remember in this case that these people were brought here not of their own free will. they weren't lining up and asking for a free ride to slavery. their families may be "better off" (very subjective point) now than they would be if they had never left their homeland, but there are definitely families that profited from their demise. saying "get over it" doesn't make it a wash. it makes it a lack of compassion and understanding.

[Wizard]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene


Apply yourself in high school, get good grades. Apply to a good college. Get in easily because of race + good grades. Apply yoruself as an undergrad, get good grades. Apply to a prestigous grad school for your MBA. Work hard, graduate top of your class. Get an awesome job right out of college because you are a man of color and a prestigous degree and graduated top of your class. BEgin making hundreds of thousands of dollars. Invent wisely. Raise a family, teach them to be achievers as well. Repeat cycle for a few generations and you have a thriving and monied black, mexican, etc community.

Don't say it can't happen because it definitly can if you have talent and work hard.

No matter what you say you will NEVER understand what it is like to wake up black and feel what oppression is. You are so sure that you got to the place you are now because of your hard work and the merits of your labor but life is not that simple. Hard work does not equal success. There are many people that are far wiser that our current president and could do a much better job, why are they not president then? Because they are not the offspring of a rich Texas political family. Teachers always tell their students "work hard and you can become whatever you want" that's a load of BS. That will only be true when we see a female president, a black president, a hispanic president, and our political leaders actually match the race, color, and ethinicity of the people they are there to serve. Remember government isn't for the rich, government is to protect the "lower" people from being oppressed by those in power.

Cantacuzene if you worked your heart out from this moment in life till when you are 50 do you think you will ever have a chance at being president? I doubt it. Unless of course you have the right connections even if you become the most fair righteous and caring politician you won't reach that stature without help from others.

[mojo]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene


Apply yourself in high school, get good grades. Apply to a good college. Get in easily because of race + good grades. Apply yoruself as an undergrad, get good grades. Apply to a prestigous grad school for your MBA. Work hard, graduate top of your class. Get an awesome job right out of college because you are a man of color and a prestigous degree and graduated top of your class. BEgin making hundreds of thousands of dollars. Invent wisely. Raise a family, teach them to be achievers as well. Repeat cycle for a few generations and you have a thriving and monied black, mexican, etc community.

Don't say it can't happen because it definitly can if you have talent and work hard. it would be a lot easier just to wake up as a rich "white" person whose family got rich from the slave trade :rolleyes:

here's a question: how is it that black people have to be african americans, but white people can just be white people or americans? you don't find out about lineage until an issue like this comes up. growing up, people would ask me what my nationality was. i'd say i'm american, but then they'd prod until i gave up my full mix. then i'd ask them and they'd say "oh, i'm white" or "american." i'm like...great...you're american, but if i give that answer then it's not acceptible. :rolleyes: some people are so blind to what they push on others.

[sbp]

Originally posted by mojo
here's a question: how is it that black people have to be african americans, but white people can just be white people or americans? you don't find out about lineage until an issue like this comes up. growing up, people would ask me what my nationality was. i'd say i'm american, but then they'd prod until i gave up my full mix. then i'd ask them and they'd say "oh, i'm white" or "american." i'm like...great...you're american, but if i give that answer then it's not acceptible. :rolleyes: some people are so blind to what they push on others. They don't have to be African-Americans. The African-American label is pushed by groups like the NAACP.

[sbp]

Originally posted by Wizard


No matter what you say you will NEVER understand what it is like to wake up black and feel what oppression is. You are so sure that you got to the place you are now because of your hard work and the merits of your labor but life is not that simple. Hard work does not equal success. There are many people that are far wiser that our current president and could do a much better job, why are they not president then? Because they are not the offspring of a rich Texas political family. Teachers always tell their students "work hard and you can become whatever you want" that's a load of BS. That will only be true when we see a female president, a black president, a hispanic president, and our political leaders actually match the race, color, and ethinicity of the people they are there to serve. Remember government isn't for the rich, government is to protect the "lower" people from being oppressed by those in power.

Cantacuzene if you worked your heart out from this moment in life till when you are 50 do you think you will ever have a chance at being president? I doubt it. Unless of course you have the right connections even if you become the most fair righteous and caring politician you won't reach that stature without help from others. Don't assume because someone is black they are oppressed.

Fact is noone can know what it is like to feel like other races, be it white, black or Asian.

As for the political leaders comment: why should race and sex matter at all? Put the best person in the job possible. That person should represent all the people not just groups of people based on race.

I thought folks were to be looked at for who they were not just race. But others, mainly from the left, say look at a person for their race no matter what and count by numbers on account of race etc. :disa:

[Wizard]

Originally posted by sbp


As for the political leaders comment: why should race and sex matter at all? Put the best person in the job possible. That person should represent all the people not just groups of people based on race.



Well right now we be F'd. Dubya is most definately not the best person for that job. I would much rather see Senator McCain or Colin Powell as president. I guess of course that is open to interpretation though :) hehe My point was merely to say I have no idea what it is like to wake up Black the same as I have no idea what it is to wake up Chinese from ancestors that were extremely abused by the california railway constructors. My point is I don't know. I praise God I am not going to be the judge deciding that case because quite frankly there is no way I could be fair to either side. But what I do know is that this is not something that should be swept under the carpet and hope people will forget about it. We made an agreement to provide compensation and I believe as Americans we should do everything in our powers to see that agreement be fulfilled.

[eSDee]

Originally posted by UT Memo
My family has only been in the country for about 15 years and my father earns what would be considered above average income. Coming here to the US he worked his way through school while supporting us and his school doing dead end jobs (yes, he even mowed lawns). 8 years later he became a doctor and I'd say we are pretty well off now. Yet not too long ago my entire family was sleeping in a 1 bedroom apartment in the nasty part of NYC on a air mattress set on the floor. I have trouble seeing how a black family that has been here for 100 years is unable to have advanced while ours has in the short time we've been here. I realize this isn't the norm, but if a recently immigrated Mexican with a language barrier can do it, why can't a Black man?

Just because your family has only been here 15 years and you are well off, does not mean that the average American can do the same. Your dad got his college education here in the United States, but he did not have the same upbringing as a minority in this country. I'm not trying to take anything away from your fathers accomplishments, which is very impressive. I'm just saying that many people come to this country in seek of a better life, but most of them don't go directly to college. Most of them do whatever job they can to support their families, which like my grandfathers meant working in the fields and doing manual labor. They did not have the means to get into college and become doctors like your dad. They did whatever they could to provide for their families at the time, and at that time it meant working like slaves breaking their backs every single day of the week. Your situation is unique and not typical of the average American minority. Minority schools are poorly funded and sub- average. Minority neighborhoods are not your average suburbia. The fact is minorities face more obstacles that most non- minorities. This isn't a plea for sympathy, it's merely a statement of the truth.

[mojo]

if reparations had been made before now, we wouldnt be having this discussion. we just wanna walk away and have it forgotten. it's a lot easier when you're the one walking away.

[mojo]

Originally posted by EsDeeLoco
This isn't a plea for sympathy, it's merely a statement of the truth. there you have it. well said.

[sbp]

Indeed. If the right thing had been done earlier there wouldn't be as much tension and bitterness about this. Think about the missed opportunities. Now we have to deal with it. Hopefully for future generations it will be better.

[Wizard]

Originally posted by sbp
Indeed. If the right thing had been done earlier there wouldn't be as much tension and bitterness about this. Think about the missed opportunities. Now we have to deal with it. Hopefully for future generations it will be better.

Agreed. Heck if they would have just given the freed slaves the 2 acres and a pony that was promised to them we would not have any conflict now. This teaches us a vital lesson, when you make a agreement with someone live up to it as soon as possible. Not living up to your promises will one day come and bite you in the ass. I hope that as Americans today we learn a wise lesson from this and make it a point to always abide by the treaties we form. And remember that brushing it under the carpet will just make the problem multiple times more difficult for our future generations. American is a beautiful country and I love it dearly. If we can make our country truly equal for all of its inhabitants then we will fulfill the dream of America.

[sbp]

Mr. Wizard: if government gives out reparations who has to pay for it?

Too late now. They should have gotten on this deal for a little pony (http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6257)

[BrewMaster]

ok, since i bumped up the "presonal prejudices" thread by accident (i'm an idiot, don't ask how i did it by accident cuz i'm not even sure i know), i figure it's worth a read anyway. what i said in that thread (http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=35568&pagenumber=2) i have quoted other times and i'll tell y'all to read it again. racism, opression, and the dividing lines of race aren't going away. reparations sure as hell aren't going to save US from racism. it's not going to atone for the suffering inflicted on black people by slavery. i think financially blacks should be paid reparations, but in the grand scheme of life, reparations are totally insignificant since people will still hate each other and not give a damn about anyone but themselves.

[topane]

Looking at the article, it look like we're thinking about getting reparations from US corporations which used slaves, similar to reparations from firms during the Holocaust. OK. Can anyone name these modern firms which were around in 1865? Ford? GM? IBM? AT&T? Nope. I'm sure there are some out there and perhaps some descendants of those firms, but do you ask for cash from Sara Lee foods because they bought "Redneck Bob's fish sticks" back in 1902? The article mentioned some, but were these companies in their present form then? I do agree that people suffered (and still suffer), but how do we pay them? And if we do give some sort of payment, do we then end programs like "empowerment zones" which are supposed to bring economic revival to poor urban neighborhoods? Does everything become "equal"? No, because you still have racism and bigotry and ignorant ****s who think a person's skin color is a judgement of his worth. And as long as that bull**** exists you will never have equality, no matter how much you try to make it right. I worry that any sort of payment will open up more lawsuits (as previously mentioned), and create resentment on top of prejudicies which already exist. I'm sorry, I do think reparations of some form should be made, but I don't think it's a good idea.

[johnnymk]

Mr. Wizard: if government gives out reparations who has to pay for it?

Reality Check: It will fall out of the sky, like all funding for silly programs.

We have been paying reparations for at least fourty years after the "Great Society" programs were inititated by Lyndon Johnson, "The Income Redistribution" mentality started by the Democrats and later adopted by the Repubicans, and the Affirmative Action laws were implemented in the seventies.

For the people who really believe in a one time reparation payment, I suggest that you give your next paycheck to the "victim" or victim program of your choice. That's only 2% of your wages. Not a bad deal for a "worthwhile cause".

[topane]

I think what sbp meant was that they don't have to be of African descent...

[topane]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene


Apply yourself in high school, get good grades. Apply to a good college. Get in easily because of race + good grades. Apply yoruself as an undergrad, get good grades. Apply to a prestigous grad school for your MBA. Work hard, graduate top of your class. Get an awesome job right out of college because you are a man of color and a prestigous degree and graduated top of your class. BEgin making hundreds of thousands of dollars. Invent wisely. Raise a family, teach them to be achievers as well. Repeat cycle for a few generations and you have a thriving and monied black, mexican, etc community.

Don't say it can't happen because it definitly can if you have talent and work hard. Heh. I work for a small (40 people) financial company. Our stock analysts are all white males. Other staff is all white folks as well. We're owned by a couple of rich white men. The only black person I've seen working for the CEO is his housekeeper (how's that for a stereotype). I'm 100% sure I will never see a black, asian, or latino person working for this firm. Nor will there ever be a woman here as a stock analyst, no matter how smart she is. Your talented black student with perfect grades, high intelligence, and a wonderful personality will likely never get in the door here.

Now that I think about it, I've seen a ton of research analysts from other companies here and some investor relations folks and I can't think of a single non-white person in those groups.

[molecularfire]

First off, I'd like to apologize for my rushed ending last night (library closes at midnight, and I got kicked out). That being said, I know I'm arguing a very insensitive point, but I feel that it needs to be said. I agree that it is harder for minorities to get as far as whites. Yes, the top of the financial food chain is held by whites, and I don't expect them to willingly give it up. Heck, if I was a rich white dude, I wouldn't want to either. That being said, you can either whine about it, or do something about it. My family is not rich. Heck, both my parents work for sweat shops (literally... stop by El Monte sometime if you're in the L.A. That place is just a string of sweat shops, with houses in between). Growing up in that neighborhood, I realized one thing. The world is not fair. The world is not nice. People that have stuff will want to keep their stuff, and people that don't can either whine about it, or do something about it. I figured that there are enough people already to do the whining. I'm gonna go out and get the stuff. I'm not saying that people aren't going to get shafted. But, if you say that the world isn't fair and that there's nothing you can do about it, then sorry, but that's just too convenient an excuse for me. That kind of thinking has kept just as many people from getting further ahead as the idiots at the top of the financial food chain. You're right, DF... I'm not black, and I will never know how that feels. Heck, I don't want to know how that feels. But, despite how much you are oppressed, if you just take it, then you're giving those bastards on the top what they want.


I'll be just an "American" at such time when I can:

Walk into ANY establishment regardless of location, in any part of the country and not get any stares/looks as to "why I am there".

Go into any employment situation and be hired and promoted based on merit alone without all of the "whispers" and barriers put up by the "Good Ol' Boy network".

Be able to move into ANY neighborhood without people going "there goes the neighborhood", based solely upon my color.

Walk into any shopping venue without having the watchful eye of "the MAN" keeping tabs on me to make sure I'm not doing something illegal.

Date your WHITE daughter without ANYONE raising an eyebrow as to why...

And the list goes on... There IS a difference among races in this country, the African-American part just acknowledges that fact.

I agree with you. I would love to live in this world. However, if you're just going to wait for it to happen, good luck. Oh, BTW... if you're going to date my white daughter, she's probably only going to be half white (I'm not white) and have her home by midnight. If not, I don't care if you're a rich white dude from a great family, be prepared to get your a$$ kicked. :D

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by Wizard


No matter what you say you will NEVER understand what it is like to wake up black and feel what oppression is. You are so sure that you got to the place you are now because of your hard work and the merits of your labor but life is not that simple. Hard work does not equal success. There are many people that are far wiser that our current president and could do a much better job, why are they not president then? Because they are not the offspring of a rich Texas political family. Teachers always tell their students "work hard and you can become whatever you want" that's a load of BS. That will only be true when we see a female president, a black president, a hispanic president, and our political leaders actually match the race, color, and ethinicity of the people they are there to serve. Remember government isn't for the rich, government is to protect the "lower" people from being oppressed by those in power.

Cantacuzene if you worked your heart out from this moment in life till when you are 50 do you think you will ever have a chance at being president? I doubt it. Unless of course you have the right connections even if you become the most fair righteous and caring politician you won't reach that stature without help from others.

You use the example of the President to show why people can't suceed. You're right, I can't be the President, I'm Catholic, the chances a Catholic will be elected President are slim to none. You missed the entire point of what I posted. With hard work and talet anyone can prosper, granted minorities will get negative looks from tiem to time by racists, but that doesnt mean you can't suceed, and thats the point. Rather than whining about ones situation get a job, or use the time to study for a law degree and you will be better off.

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by DarkFury

I did everything you stated above up to the part of "making hundreds of thousands of dollars" part (BTW, I graduated Magna Cum Laude in the top 5% of my class in both high school and college.)...

Where the HELL do you make that kind of cash ($100,000 + ) right out of school... or do you think that every Black man is gonna become a pro athlete or an entertainer (since that is the quickest way for most "people of color" to get a leg up on society). How many jobs do you think pay that kind of cash to be able to invest like that? If you know where, then you need to share because that is some elusive infomation.

Personally, I do a pretty decent job of raising my family without having the benefit of having 6 digits in the bank. You need to step back and look at it from a "non jaded" point of view, since you seem to think that everything is "peaches and cream" for everyone.

I don't even know why I am discussing this with you anyways... since you OBVIOUSLY don't understand... based upon the opinions formed during our last encounter in the "fried chicken" thread and now seeing this. Obviously you are "salty" because of affirmative action and other attempts to "level the playing" field... I guess you wanna own the whole dayuum field and have us find our own field as well huh?


Wow, thanks for flaming me and using personal insults rather than addressing my arguements.

You saw you graduated with honors etc, thats great, but I believe you attended a historically black school correct? I'm not saying that was bad, but if you wanted to land a job in corporate america you might have considered going to a school where big business was more likely to recruit. You knew the stats of your university before you went into it.

You can definitly make lots of money right after college. My roommate's dad who is a Cuban Immagrant who spoke no english became vice president in a fortune 500 company within 5 years of coming to america, and he never graduated high school. How did he do it? Hard work and a PASSION to suceed and help his family. Also, you try to put words into my mouth by with the athlete comment, please refrain from making outrageous comments and making it seem like thats how I think.

I'm glad you raised your family with under 6 figures, my parents did too. My parents make less then 50,000$ combined a year so I'm pretty damn poor too and I think my parents did a good job and money isnt everything, but the point is, if you want to be rich and want to put the effort in that it takes, you can be wealthy.

I believe in affirmative action, I think it helps a lot. Affirmative action is a big part of my "miracle" situation of getting into a good school and landing a great job.

Minorities can't really complain about financial situations anymore, because the money is there, you have to apply yourself and take it. Since I am white I'll never know what it feels like to walk into a place and get the strange looks, which seems to anger you more than anything. Maybe it feels like the way I feel when I walked into Next Friday on opening night and was the only white person there, maybe not. Either way, I feel bad that in this day and age bad looks are still a problem, even if I don't know it first hand.

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by topane
Heh. I work for a small (40 people) financial company. Our stock analysts are all white males. Other staff is all white folks as well. We're owned by a couple of rich white men. The only black person I've seen working for the CEO is his housekeeper (how's that for a stereotype). I'm 100% sure I will never see a black, asian, or latino person working for this firm. Nor will there ever be a woman here as a stock analyst, no matter how smart she is. Your talented black student with perfect grades, high intelligence, and a wonderful personality will likely never get in the door here.

Now that I think about it, I've seen a ton of research analysts from other companies here and some investor relations folks and I can't think of a single non-white person in those groups.

How many apply? When a black man with an MBA from Harvard Business walks in the door for an interview you think he will get rejected? If he does thats discrimination and he can sue.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but... if I was a student graduating from Hardvard with an MBA I'd rather be black, 99% of corporations would kill for a man of color with credentials like that.

[LPMiller]

I just don't think handing over a check does anything. It won't even be a half step in address any of the problems blacks face here.

Plus we are talking 1.4 trillion bucks here...that is a HUGE hit for any economy to take, even ours.

I say we need to do something different. I will agree that the companies that traded or earned their money off the backs of slaves deserve to pay. I would add indentured servants, I'd add the slaves of other races (blacks held the majority, but werent' the only 'slave' race, at least not at the very beginings). Then I would have those companies fund, seriously fund, things like intercity colleges and highschools. The 'ghetto' schools would get money for the computers, for the books made in the last 10 years. They would also have access to those companies for job recruiting and placement - every major company has a few pet schools they hit, so I don't see that it much matters if few of those schools are requirements.

Call it enforced entreprenurship for those companies that gained with no loss from history meek. This would mostly help blacks; but I for one would like to see all the poor in this country helped at the same time, otherwise in 100 years we'll just create a 'new' ghetto class of some other race.

I guess instead of trying to prop up blacks, I'd prefer to give them a hand up. If that makes sense.

[Cantacuzene]

I just wonder DF, what we are exactly arguing about? You got a college degree, are happy with your job and doign well with your family. News flash: thats the American dream. You did it. You won. Mission accomplished. Congrats on your success, you earned it through hard work, exactly like I said you could.

As for my "white opinion" as you put it. Thats just a devisive comment, and I would hardly say that being against reparations makes anyone a racist or that all my opinions are "white" opinions. I think making statements like that make you seem more racist, afterall, I don't say you have a "black" opinion, you just have your opinon, period.

[Memo]

Originally posted by EsDeeLoco


Just because your family has only been here 15 years and you are well off, does not mean that the average American can do the same. Your dad got his college education here in the United States, but he did not have the same upbringing as a minority in this country. I'm not trying to take anything away from your fathers accomplishments, which is very impressive. I'm just saying that many people come to this country in seek of a better life, but most of them don't go directly to college. Most of them do whatever job they can to support their families, which like my grandfathers meant working in the fields and doing manual labor. They did not have the means to get into college and become doctors like your dad. They did whatever they could to provide for their families at the time, and at that time it meant working like slaves breaking their backs every single day of the week. Your situation is unique and not typical of the average American minority. Minority schools are poorly funded and sub- average. Minority neighborhoods are not your average suburbia. The fact is minorities face more obstacles that most non- minorities. This isn't a plea for sympathy, it's merely a statement of the truth.

I think the average American CAN do this. They just don't want to. Sure, it was hard back then, but now times have changed. The newer generations in the family have the opportunity to better themselves. The situation is still tough, I will admit that. The problem I see with many minorities when faced with a tough situation is that they try to make the system easier for them. I think if the situation is tough, you should try HARDER. They don't want to try harder, they want the bar to be lowered for them to make up for their hardships. This is why I see some people going NOWHERE. Sometimes I just see people spending too much time complaining about the situation than doing something about it. I know that minority neighborhoods are not your average suburbia, I know minority schools are less funded, I've lived in them and been to those schools. I don't think it's a problem easily solved, I think it will take time. The generation growing up right now is a lot more understanding than the previous because we grew up with Civil Rights as fact. The previous generation had Civil Rights introduced to them in their lifetime. I don't however think sueing for money is going to do anything more than make a few rich people for invalid reasons.

[mojo]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
you earned it through hard work, exactly like I said you could.
actually, he just plain earned it. almost in spite of what you said. i say that because what you said doesn't really apply to real life.

most of the companies i've worked for had very few black people in upper management. according to you, there must not have been any that applied. my sources (my eyes, in this case) tell me different. i've seen plenty of black people, with qualifications, apply for upper management positions and just not get them. at my last job, they would actually apply for a position, and pretty consistently get the next lower job (for example, they would apply for a job as a manager, and get the assistant manager position).

point is, it's not an equation like you put it. it's not hard work + being black = success. i'm not black and i see this. others have hinted at it as well. you have no idea what their hardships are. you can theorize all you want...but that doesn't make it so. if a black person says he or she has faced hardships, and you say they shouldn't have...i'll have to go with the personal experience over the theorization.

[mojo]

Originally posted by DarkFury

"He still don't get it"... Oh well... :disa:


(American dream my @ss...and definitely NOT like YOU said it was. And if the word "white" bothers you... how about "Euro-centric opinion", because that's what it is. Whether it be yours or anyone elses. I do know some Blacks that share in having a "Euro-centric" opinion as well... however I ain't gonna "sell out" to that logic.) you can't expect to change minds. hopefully you can bring up points that peeps hadn't considered. sometimes it works...usually not, in cases like this. usually people have their nice little world where everything makes sense, and if you point out something that just ain't fair, they have to impeach the witness immediately for fear of disrupting the vision.

in this case, it's prolly more obvious. if he didn't get it coming in, he likely won't get it going out.

[jujubees]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
Get in easily because of race + good grades ...
Get an awesome job right out of college because you are a man of color and a prestigous degree and graduated top of your class.<Loudspeaker announcement>

Proctologist needed in clinic 6.

</Loudspeaker announcement>

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by DarkFury

(American dream my @ss...and definitely NOT like YOU said it was. And if the word "white" bothers you... how about "Euro-centric opinion", because that's what it is. Whether it be yours or anyone elses. I do know some Blacks that share in having a "Euro-centric" opinion as well... however I ain't gonna "sell out" to that logic.)

You are happy with your life are you not? You earned everything you got did you not? Then you should be happy. I could see you being mad if you were ripped off, and maybe you were, but you haven't said anything like that so I dont have anything to go on.

I want to know what I said that is "euro-centric" or "white" or whatever. I find it funny that I'm so easy to identify and pidegeon hole. Please fill me in on my "error."

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by jujubees
<Loudspeaker announcement>

Proctologist needed in clinic 6.

</Loudspeaker announcement>

Everyone else so far has had something intelligent to add, I don't see the need for a personal attack, and a poor one at that.

[whitak24]

well, a lot of people have vented here, so i'm a little late to the party. but here's my thoughts:

i definitely agree with DF that there are still a lot of barriers which stand in the way of minorities when they try to achieve a higher standard of living than what they were raised with. could they get out of this if they tried harder, as Memo suggested? maybe, maybe not. i think it varies on an individual, case-by-case basis. in general, i think that hard work can pay off to at least some extent, but what remains is that a "white" can be lazy and achieve about the same results as a "minority" achieves through hard work and a lot of effort.

so, imo, there is definitely a gap between the races. more importantly, i think this gap matters, because in the long term, i think our society will be less stable and less productive as long as this gap exists.

so this leaves the question of "how should this gap be reduced?" i really do not think that a class action lawsuit against companies with an extremely weak link to slavery are counterproductive.

if there was a company out there that prior to the civil war was entirely based on and profiting from the labor of slaves (let's say that were a cotton trading company), and they still existed as the same company today, built off the capital accumulated while profiting off slave labor, then i can see a case to be made for holding them liable. but when you look at the three companies that have been named so far, i think the connection to slavery is so weak and tenuous that it is foolish and unfair to point to them and say: "you were responsible for slavery. pay up."

when you look at the economic history of slavery, the people who primarily profited from slave labor were the people who owned the slaves -- plantation owners from the south. the economic structure of the antebellum united states was so drastically different from the structure today that it is hardly recognizable. that is why there are so few companies still in business that existed at that time. it wasn't until the late 1800s and early 1900s that the corporate structure became more dominate and we started to see massive companies that controlled vast amounts of capital and market share -- companies that could survive for 100-150 years.

there was some manufacturing in the north, but it was on a relatively small scale. the people who owned these factories were profiting as they sold manufactured goods to slave-owners (who reaped profits from their slave labor). shop-keepers who sold cotton drygoods to housewives in the north were also profiting. but those profits have long-since disappeared.

the profits of most of the people in the south have disappeared as well. the civil war, in addition to being traumatic politically, was extremely destructive economically. sherman's "march to the sea" and many other campaigns destroyed millions of dollars in capital. add to that a puntative post-war restoration period, and i find it hard to say that there is a lot left of the value that was created by the slaves. maybe others have evidence to the contrary on this point, and i'd be happy to see it. i'm just speaking from my fairly limited knowledge.

so quite frankly, i do not see where there is a lot of capital that is still hanging around out there that was stolen from the back of slaves. so if there are any reparations to be made, i think they are simply pay for "lost wages". but imo, i do not think that handing out "lost wages" is going to make a big difference in narrowing the "gap" that i mentioned earlier.

if nothing else, i think that it would be negative from the standpoint of trying to make future progress on racial issues, as many people would say "we already paid them $1.4 trillion. they should just shut up now. we've done our part."

in addition, just handing out some lump-sum payments will not solve the problems of poor education, bad neighborhoods, etc. after all, the problems that exist in black community do not stem (in my opinion) from 100 years of working for free. they stem from the systematic non-preferential treatment that has been directed against blacks.

this is where what LPM was talking about comes in. i think that if any kind of reparations are to be made, they should come in the form of economic, educational, and social development for underpriviledged areas. i believe that this is where our best bet for really improving the chances of the next generation of african-americans lies.

what do y'all think?

[mojo]

Originally posted by jujubees
<Loudspeaker announcement>

Proctologist needed in clinic 6.

</Loudspeaker announcement> bwahahaha! http://216.40.198.77/mysmilies/s/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gif

[Memo]

Originally posted by mojo
bwahahaha! http://216.40.198.77/mysmilies/s/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gif

It was funny but when people are trying to describe something serious, it seems like a crap on the thread.

[sbp]

Originally posted by DarkFury

Ok.. I lied. I'm not done with this thread yet.. :D

I'll be just an "American" at such time when I can:

Walk into ANY establishment regardless of location, in any part of the country and not get any stares/looks as to "why I am there".

Go into any employment situation and be hired and promoted based on merit alone without all of the "whispers" and barriers put up by the "Good Ol' Boy network".

Be able to move into ANY neighborhood without people going "there goes the neighborhood", based solely upon my color.

Walk into any shopping venue without having the watchful eye of "the MAN" keeping tabs on me to make sure I'm not doing something illegal.

Date your WHITE daughter without ANYONE raising an eyebrow as to why...

And the list goes on... There IS a difference among races in this country, the African-American part just acknowledges that fact. You always welcome in sbp's fine establishment for drinks and eats. BTB-bring on the booty. :hehehmm:

[Wizard]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene


You use the example of the President to show why people can't suceed. You're right, I can't be the President, I'm Catholic, the chances a Catholic will be elected President are slim to none. You missed the entire point of what I posted. With hard work and talet anyone can prosper, granted minorities will get negative looks from tiem to time by racists, but that doesnt mean you can't suceed, and thats the point. Rather than whining about ones situation get a job, or use the time to study for a law degree and you will be better off.

You fool. Listen to the truth that you just said. Because of Skin Color, Accent, Nationality, and even Religion people can not attain what they deserve. You then end your comment with the idiocity that people should be happy with what they do get. Bah if someone goes through law school gets a 4.0 all the way graduates with top honors and becomes a great politician he/she should have the same chance at being president than some buffon from a rich family in texas has. On previous comments you said that it was true that if you work hard enough you can attain what you want, now you are saying that you can attain "good" stuff and be happy with that. Don't be mad because you can't attain what you want.

Also you spew forth the highest stupidity ever uttered. The idea that the people that are "whining" don't have jobs and are living off welfare. The biggest percentage of US inhabitants that live off of welfare and don't want jobs are white. White people are the ones that abuse welfare. And don't even get me started on corporate welfare. I will place a $100 bet on that any person (black or otherwise) that is taking up this fight in support of blacks is NOT doing it for personal gain. They are doing this for a moral need to have reperations made. If I were them I'd sue for 10 Trillion and let the US public know that if something is not done about this we don't deserve to even have a functioning economy anymore.

Watch that name calling Wizard! -GAM

[topane]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene


How many apply? When a black man with an MBA from Harvard Business walks in the door for an interview you think he will get rejected? If he does thats discrimination and he can sue. I think he would. And I can't sit here and prove whether or not anyone's been discrimated against; there's not a set of rules or anything like that here. It's just something I know. I work with people who belong to a very exclusive "club"--rich white guys. They went to Big 10 and Ivy League schools and they go recruit new blood at these schools. I haven't seen a black kid here for a walkthrough or an interview yet. Maybe there aren't many at those schools, but I would think with the volume of people coming through here for interviews, meetings, etc. I would see at least one black person.

Originally posted by Cantacuzene

You use the example of the President to show why people can't suceed. You're right, I can't be the President, I'm Catholic, the chances a Catholic will be elected President are slim to none. JFK was Catholic.

[topane]

Originally posted by Wizard
I will place a $100 bet on that any person (black or otherwise) that is taking up this fight in support of blacks is NOT doing it for personal gain. Al Sharpton. You owe me $100.

[jujubees]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
Everyone else so far has had something intelligent to add, I don't see the need for a personal attack, and a poor one at that. :rolleyes:

I try to stay out of political discussions, and people much more articulate than I have tried breaking through your rose-colored glasses view, and to no avail.

Why do you hear the media regaling "immigrants making good" and attaining the American Dream? Because they're RARE occurrences -- it DOES happen, but it's not as if every immigrant who TRIES to succeed ends up at a Fortune 500 company. They managed to make it through a combination of hard work, determination, the right opportunities, and yes, luck. For most of us, these four items will never line up, regardless of race, nationality, etc. The last time I saw a story about an average Joe White "making good" was during the dot-com boom, and even then, there was a sensationalist angle because the dot-com CEO was only 18.

Another thing -- college admissions based on race have been revoked in California. It'll probably be disputed in the courts till kingdom come, but your belief that a student of color can "Get in easily because of race + good grades ..." just doesn't cut it out here.

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by topane

JFK was Catholic.

True, and they killed him amd we havent had one since. :P ;)

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by jujubees
:rolleyes:

I try to stay out of political discussions, and people much more articulate than I have tried breaking through your rose-colored glasses view, and to no avail.


One thing that bothers me, when its MY opinion its rose colored glasses, but EVERYONE elses opinion is so well founded, insightful and inspirational. Gimme a break.:rolleyes:

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by Wizard


{snip wizards post]


I think you took everything I said and interperated it in the most extreme way you could have. I wish that everyone had a fair shot at being president, but thats not the reality, hopefully someday it will change.

I didn't also intend to say that minorities should be happy with what they have. I meant that if you work hard, try your best and provide for your family you should be proud of that instead of being angry about what you dont have.

As for your rant about welfare, I didnt mention welfare and I wasn't inferring it. I don't know where you got that from. I was just saying the people pursuing this could be doing a lot more productive things for their community then this.

If they don't care about the money and want the moral victory, they should settle for an apology from these companies. I'm sure they'd rather have the money though, who wouldnt?

[mojo]

...must...resist...temptation...to...post....in...this...thread....

[whitak24]

Originally posted by mojo
...must...resist...temptation...to...post....in...this...thread....
i said a number of things (above) that i'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on. and i promise i won't call you stupid, ugly, or anything else if you disagree with me :P

[mojo]

Originally posted by whitak24

i said a number of things (above) that i'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on. and i promise i won't call you stupid, ugly, or anything else if you disagree with me :P well, it is an interesting thought about the deal with peeps saying "well, they got the money, so now they should just shup about it." at the same time, targeting companies that are still around is merely holding them to some extent accountable for something. if you have drug dealers here that you caught while others got away, you don't just say "oh, well most of them got away, so it won't help to get these that we have right now." of course this is a very loose analogy, but the time lapsed is most of the difference here. i mean, the money is still there. it has gathered interest over time and became even more money. heck, it became other business altogether. all the same, it's still there and we know where it is.

the point of course goes well beyond the money. the money here would be more symbolic than anything. slaves died. some were beaten to death. some were worked to death. etc, etc. then comes the persecution and general hatred over the years. how do you equate such things with money? you don't...but that's the medium we use these days.

so let's say we don't give them the money, but rather we give them education. is there a point at which that runs out and we stop? what about those that sweated through an education? where do they benefit? or is it just tuff noogies for them?

we can't help everyone, but i guess we can make efforts.

give them the money? good idea. don't give them the money, but give them education and other benes? good idea. sit around and say "get over it"? just a tad insensitive for my taste.

[oblongmelon]

Originally posted by topane
JFK was Catholic.

YEH, and what a fine Catholic he was.
JFK is a disgrace to us catholics-Now I'm not talking about his shady political career in an office won by bribes and misfortunes of others-I'm talking about his personal catholic agenda. NONE of the Kennedy's are who they want people to think they are-even the Pius Caroline-princess of camelot was rumored to be involved in the cover up and disposal of evidence of her cousin overdose..Let's see-talk about Rose colored glasses-that's the family who has manufactured them-starting with Old Joe Kennedy himself-the lying, adultering, snake in the grass who so vehemently boasted about his affairs with other women in front of his impressionable sons-but also his so-called saint of a wife. Poor old Rose-no amount of Hail Mary's could ever redeem her for turning a blind eye to the actions of her spouse and kids..Even her father-Honey Fitzgerald was a crooked saloon keeper turned politician who used his "irishness" to win the Democratic vote that got him elected as mayor of Boston. Hello? am I the only person who knows about the Kennedys here? Please don't bring JFK catholoscim
into this thread-(or lack of it) because it's not what this thread is about..
-Continued..
DF I know this is a subject very close to your heart here-but try to see things a different way for one minute if you will..first off I totally get blown away by the whole slavery thing-it shouldn't have happened but it did..granted-it was wrong, very wrong. But black people are not the only ones who are discriminated against..Ever been a white woman walking into an establishment for lunch with a friend who happens to be black and running into some of their black friends? Immediately, the conversations turns into the whole "sistah" thing..all of a sudden a group of 6 adult,female, business women 5 of whom are black suddenly become homegirls-including ebonics, racial comments,etc..while the one white woman is totally left out until the lunch is over and her friend miraculously turns back from homegirl to co-worker..LOOK at OPHRAH for crying outloud-classic example of being black when it's convenient-here is this upstanding black woman, who has made more money than god, who is an eloquent speaker, social giant,and damn good businesswoman-who immediately turns like a phoenix rising into a soul sistah when ever she has black guests on...I mean COME ON what is with that? There is such a thing as being conveniently black, conveniently irish, conveniently italian, conveniently anything if it gets people what they want..This whole lawsuit stuff is way over the top here-I agree with whomever the person was that said- if they want to recover all this money made on the backs of slaves then let it go into building schools and supplying computers and stuff for the kids who's futures are at stake...put the money to good use-if the companies are going to make any kind of restitution then put it where it will do most good-not 33% in the hands of some money grubbing lawyers and a few people who feel they represent the entire black race, but in schools-scholarships to study abroad-perhaps to study their roots,build museums for the slaves, honor them like they honor the rest of those in society who are represented by statues and monuments, create libraries, and hospitals with the money and for god sake stop whining about how their great great great so and so picked cotton and now some hundred and some odd years later everyone needs to "pay us because of it"..Has anyone done any kind of research on this woman who is initiating these reparation suits? Does she have any kind of dregs of society in her family that ever spent time in jail, or abused the system in anyway? If she is such an upstanding member of society-I think she would put her time creating harmony between the races than becoming the persecuted great great relative of someone who had no choice how they lived way back when. So let's not talk about who was a slave-let's talk about who is still trying to hook those chains around their ankles.

[LPMiller]

Originally posted by DarkFury
And yeah... I guess you could call that the "game face". If you wanna play "the game with the Man" you can't go in there with your "bruh man face" on. If you do, you are sure to get the smack down laid on ya with the quickness...

But be true to thineself... the 'hood in some cases is still there, but we learn to use it and not abuse it. I guess that is an "environmental" issue there. Back home, if you have your "game face" on and you interact with the folks there, they are gonna say things like "Oh... so you wanna be White now. Why are you acting like that". However in the workplace you don't wanna always have your "bruh man face" showing either, especially in mixed company, that is unless they are "sympathetic" to the 'hood mentality. (BTW, I have several friends who are white who "shuck and jive" with me all day long... and no I don't take offense to them doing it... but they also know what lines to not cross as well.)
.

Heck, everyone does that. We all have a work face, a home face, a buddy face, whatever. Mix the faces up and you get funny looks. Maybe it's just more...I dunno, obvious in the 'street' culture.

You know, it used to bother me, those white kids that talked street. Till I met this guy, who grew up in about the 'blackest' part of dallas. All his friends were black, his school was mostly black, etc. Coming up here was a culture shock, and he never felt like he belonged. But it made sense he'd talk and act that way - I mean, expecting anything else is like expecting a kid growing up in france not to speak french.

I guess it just makes me think about how much the cultures here really define people, and are in some ways more responsible for how things go; and how we deal with those issues as we deal with the more 'obvious' ones of race. And it all gets mixed together in this mismosh of blah that doesn't get anyone anywhere, regardless of race.

That's why when I hear about lawsuits asking for payment or repriations or whatever, I ultimately think yeah so, what's that gonna do. Not gonna do squat, but I understand why people reach out for those straws. And I gotta tell you, I think if those checks ever get mailed, it will set race relations back further than any thing else ever has in this country.

That's why I'd rather do what I or whitak were talking about. Mojo asked is there a point where we stop and I say no. Sure, we can't help everyone now - we don't know how. But help enough people, and someone will be able to figure out the rest. As long as we move forward, not back.

[Napoleon54]

Concerning the lawsuit:

I'm not a lawyer but I play one in this forum.

The lawsuit seeks damages on the basis of the named companies financially benefitted from slavery and the slave trade. Although this sounds like a serious allegation, slavery was not outlawed until 1865. Slavery used to be legal, and (as far as government is concerned) Aetna, CSX, FleetBoston, et al did nothing wrong. Today we all realize that slavery is a horrible, disgusting thing. I'm not condoning it in any way; I just want to point out that it was legal and by the standards of law these companies' actions were not unjust. I don't believe the suit to have any legal basis on the grounds that it seeks dammages for legally acceptable behavior. In other words, the companies can't be sued if they didn't break any laws.

An alternative course of action would be to sue the government for allowing slavery to happen. In which case probably the only thing that would happen would be the outlaw of slavery, which has already been done.

[oblongmelon]

Originally posted by DarkFury
Dayuummm Obby... help a Brutha out next time and use some paragraph breaks or something to break that text up... MY EYES HURT! :neartears

And yeah... I guess you could call that the "game face". If you wanna play "the game with the Man" you can't go in there with your "bruh man face" on. If you do, you are sure to get the smack down laid on ya with the quickness...

But be true to thineself... the 'hood in some cases is still there, but we learn to use it and not abuse it. I guess that is an "environmental" issue there. Back home, if you have your "game face" on and you interact with the folks there, they are gonna say things like "Oh... so you wanna be White now. Why are you acting like that". However in the workplace you don't wanna always have your "bruh man face" showing either, especially in mixed company, that is unless they are "sympathetic" to the 'hood mentality. (BTW, I have several friends who are white who "shuck and jive" with me all day long... and no I don't take offense to them doing it... but they also know what lines to not cross as well.)

Like I have said before, there are certain things that should be done/said in mixed company and hopefully people don't cross that line. Hopefully you sorta understand what is goin' on there... and don't get offended by it. Bruh man face? Shuck and Jive? wth? LOL it doesn't offend me when it happens, I just find it very odd..I actually asked one of my friends why they do that and she said-"because it ain't cool to hang out wif da whitey's if ya know what I mean"..and she used some funky kind of groovin' down wid it accent that totally cracked me up..we spent the rest of the day laughing over the fact another friend of ours who is EXTREMELY CORPORATE tried to use her "black attempt" at being accepted except she was WHITE! It was horrible..(think Eddy Murphy in Beverly Hills Cop when he was mimicking the cop about putting the banana in the tail pipe). I would rather work/hang out with people who are THEMSELVES all the time, and learn my place in that situation, than for them to put on some big act when it's convenient. Do you know where I'm coming from on this DF?...oh yeh-sorry bout the rant..next time I'll use paragraphs.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by UT Memo
I realize this isn't the norm, but if a recently immigrated Mexican with a language barrier can do it, why can't a Black man?

a black man can. but it's hard. anecdotal evidence... is still just an anecdote. the point is, hiring preferences, school admissions preferences, reparations, etc, are bandaids. small ones. yes, a black man can work hard and get to the top. but when the discrimination you encounter is subtle, and unrelenting... and starts the day you walk out the door into the big bad world... and you have ppl telling you to "get over it" (because it's not as bad as it used to be, or because you have a chip on your shoulder and you're reading too much into a situation TRYING to find discrimination, or because "everything's equal now," etc) it really erodes your motivation to succeed. this is also a response to cantacuzene.

let me tell anyone who thinks i'm exaggerating: go to a grade school and just sit and observe five different classrooms for a day. watch how the teachers treat the black males relative to the rest of the students. it's absolutely amazing. it's amazing to me that anyone treated like that EVER manages to stick with it all the way through high school.

add in a higher likelihood of growing up poor, growing up in a single-parent household, growing up with parents working 60 hours a week just to keep food on the table (and not having a lot of time and energy left over) and it's less likely that you will have a support system in place to help you succeed.

if your parents never valued their education, they're not very likely to be able to help you value your education.

also, studies have shown that poor kids are much less likely to take advantage of scholarships and loans to go to school. they may get a full ride scholarship, and work-study, but that usually only covers 75% of the total cost... and they aren't willing to borrow any money at all. a kid with two parents making $40,000 each is perfectly willing to take on $10,000 in debt and be confident in his/her ability to eventually pay it off. a kid with dirt-poor parents isn't so sure.

so. these are jsut a few thoughts for all the ppl who are sitting back wondering why those duned black ppl whine so much. the point is, there are lots of little problems that really make a difference in succes vs. failure. it's not all the same, it's not all equal; yes, anyone can succeed, but some ppl have a lot more things working against them, and pointing out those very real problems is not exactly whining. yes, some ppl do whine, "play the race card," etc. but that's not the majority. at all. every instance of pointing out a problem and suggesting a possible solution is not whining.

most of the black college students i have met, for example, have been INCREDIBLY forgiving of discrimination. they learn to let it roll of their backs and trudge on anyway. it's how they continue to succeed without the day-to-day crap driving them nuts. and not everyone can do it. and nobody should have to do it.

[Cantacuzene]

I suppose in the state I come from black people have it much easier in certain repsects than other places in teh country. In florida, if you make a 3.0 in high school you get 75% of college paid for BEFORE your financial aid is applied, so if you are poor you can still afford to get in. If you go to a community college and get your AA you automatically can transfer to a state school, skipping the application process. Basically, in this state, anyone regardless of race can get a good education. Should other states adopt similar policies? Definitly.

I'm just telling you all this to let you know where I'm coming from. In Florida at least, race and wealth is no barrier to higher education.

[welfareloser]

that aa thing that gets you in automatically... taht's a GREAT idea. that allows kids who dint get the best grades in HS - for whatever reason - to use community college to prove themselves... if they can get the aa, they can get a bachelor's. every state should do that, imo.

[cruelpupet]

not gonna discuss anything, everthing has already been beaten to death in this thread. All I ask is.....



PLEASE DO NOT LET AL SHARPTON OR JESSI JACKSON GET INVOLED IN THIS!!!

[Cantacuzene]

Yeah, but you are a bit older than me I'm assuming, you went to college before the Bright Futures scholarship was introduced, it has taken care of a lot of that problems.

And I've said it before, the best loan you'll ever make in your life is taking a student loan, and those are open to ANYONE.

[xsiled2]

i remember walter williams say thing that even though slavary was an extremely bad thing, that hes relatives were put through what they were, black in the US are better off NOW then they could have ever been in africa


on a side note, there were black slave owners, if that wasnt brought up before..

[Memo]

Blackslaveowners were not the norm, but they were not exactly sparse. In 1860 alone, 100 Blacks owned slaves in Charlston, South Carolina. However, most of them owned fewer than 4. Most of them showed little concern for fellow blacks either, they did not release their slaves. If you remember, the Europeans did not invent the slave trade. When the Portuguese (I believe) landed in Africa, there was already a slave system set up by the Africans trading prisoners of war and rival tribes and such. I guess it wasn't that weird for blacks to own blacks.


This wasn't to prove any point at all, just a little History. :) You know you always ask yourself "When am I ever going to use this ****?" Well, G|A forums baby!

[mojo]

Originally posted by Napoleon54
Concerning the lawsuit:

I'm not a lawyer but I play one in this forum.

The lawsuit seeks damages on the basis of the named companies financially benefitted from slavery and the slave trade. Although this sounds like a serious allegation, slavery was not outlawed until 1865. Slavery used to be legal, and (as far as government is concerned) Aetna, CSX, FleetBoston, et al did nothing wrong. Today we all realize that slavery is a horrible, disgusting thing. I'm not condoning it in any way; I just want to point out that it was legal and by the standards of law these companies' actions were not unjust. I don't believe the suit to have any legal basis on the grounds that it seeks dammages for legally acceptable behavior. In other words, the companies can't be sued if they didn't break any laws.
but they can be sued if they didn't break laws. remember the OJ civil suit? well, legally he didn't break any laws (since he was found not guilty). but the civil suit held him accountable for his actions.

[Napoleon54]

Originally posted by mojo
but they can be sued if they didn't break laws. remember the OJ civil suit? well, legally he didn't break any laws (since he was found not guilty). but the civil suit held him accountable for his actions.

Civil suit still must prove guilt of a crime, just has different requirements and procedures.

"In this civil suit filed by the Goldman and Brown families, Simpson could not invoke the Fifth Amendment and, unlike the criminal case, was forced to testify. Also, the standard of proof was a lot easier than in the criminal case. There, guilt must be proven “beyond a reasonable doubt.” In a civil case, guilt had only to be proven according to the "preponderance of the evidence", rather than "beyond a reasonable doubt." In other words its purpose is to decide whether it is more likely than not that the defendant committed the crime." Source (http://www.crimelibrary.com/classics4/oj/16.htm)

[mojo]

Originally posted by Napoleon54


Civil suit still must prove guilt of a crime, just has different requirements and procedures.

"In this civil suit filed by the Goldman and Brown families, Simpson could not invoke the Fifth Amendment and, unlike the criminal case, was forced to testify. Also, the standard of proof was a lot easier than in the criminal case. There, guilt must be proven “beyond a reasonable doubt.” In a civil case, guilt had only to be proven according to the "preponderance of the evidence", rather than "beyond a reasonable doubt." In other words its purpose is to decide whether it is more likely than not that the defendant committed the crime." Source (http://www.crimelibrary.com/classics4/oj/16.htm) we have civil cases all the time that have more to do with "he said/she said" stuff and less with laws being specifically broken. such i guess is "the spirit of the law," wherein not everything needs to be specified as law to allow or disallow. not to mention that it's debatable in itself as to whether slavery was ever even constitutional.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by UT Memo
Blackslaveowners were not the norm, but they were not exactly sparse. In 1860 alone, 100 Blacks owned slaves in Charlston, South Carolina. However, most of them owned fewer than 4. Most of them showed little concern for fellow blacks either, they did not release their slaves. If you remember, the Europeans did not invent the slave trade. When the Portuguese (I believe) landed in Africa, there was already a slave system set up by the Africans trading prisoners of war and rival tribes and such. I guess it wasn't that weird for blacks to own blacks.


This wasn't to prove any point at all, just a little History. :) You know you always ask yourself "When am I ever going to use this ****?" Well, G|A forums baby!

not releasing their slaves does not mean they showed them little concern. could be that keeping their slaves under their wing was a lot safer than the big bad world of free, poor, and black.

and african slavery was nothing like american slavery. yes, i'm sure there were abusive f***s who acted every bit as bad as an american plantation owner, but for the most part, it was a form of indentured servitude... you work for me until x debt is paid off. even if they came into slavery as POW's, they were still treated like lower-class citizens, and not animals.

and in response to the "blacks were better off in america than they would have been in crummy ol' africa..." ... maybe ... but that wouldn't be true if whitey hadn't gone in taken over the continent. europeans are responsible for the political mess that is africa.

[LPMiller]

Originally posted by welfareloser


not releasing their slaves does not mean they showed them little concern. could be that keeping their slaves under their wing was a lot safer than the big bad world of free, poor, and black.



Maybe, but I'd doubt it. Mostly because regardless of color, race or creed, people in general tend to suck.

There are just too many stories of 'head slaves' or 'head' POW's or whatever that abused what little power they had to be dinks, and tended to be hated worse then the slave owner or the guy who runs the POW camp, mostly because they seem like traitors.

Keep in mind too, those black slave owners would likely have been under much scrutiny, and in fear of losing what they had. That might just motivate them to be the 'best' slave owner they could be.

I dunno how relevent it is anyway - sure other races were slaves, and no, we didnt' invent it - I'm sure it's been around since fire. But blacks in this country were by far the most mistreated in regards to slavery, and is the only race here still suffering from those affects.

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by welfareloser


and in response to the "blacks were better off in america than they would have been in crummy ol' africa..." ... maybe ... but that wouldn't be true if whitey hadn't gone in taken over the continent. europeans are responsible for the political mess that is africa.

I have to respond to this. If the white man had never set foot on africa what do you think it would be? A paradise where everyone gets along and lives in peace? Hell no. They would still be fighting every bit as savagly as they are now, just for different reasons. They would prolly technologically a great deal worse off I have to assume.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene


I have to respond to this. If the white man had never set foot on africa what do you think it would be? A paradise where everyone gets along and lives in peace? Hell no. They would still be fighting every bit as savagly as they are now, just for different reasons. They would prolly technologically a great deal worse off I have to assume.

i was not implying a utopia. i don't need a lecture about human nature. but whitey screwed up africa. it coulda been a better, more peaceful place without the artificially imposed country borders and rapists like king leopold.

[Cantacuzene]

The British/French/Spanish/Portugese man's hands are definitly not clean in Africa, but I'd be hard pressed to blame them for what the Hutus do to the Tutsis in Rwanda. Borders or not, tribal warfare is tribal warfare, and now they fight with AK-47s instead of spears.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
The British/French/Spanish/Portugese man's hands are definitly not clean in Africa, but I'd be hard pressed to blame them for what the Hutus do to the Tutsis in Rwanda.

as i understand it, the hutus vs. tutsis is the PERFECT example of whitey messin up africa. here's my short version of the story:

there's this area of africa. there are two "classes" of people there, hutus and tutsis. i believe the classes were two types of professions, like farmers and tradesmen or something, but the point is, the class distinctions were not very important in that society.

then whitey comes in. they set things up so that they're handing out trinkets and such, and then start playing favorites... giving people uniforms and handing out "ranks" ... playing one side off the other ... obviously, i don't know a whole lot about it anymore, i last read up on it in the 80s, i think, but the punchline is that whitey really turned a molehill into a mountain on this one: turned a minor, non-combative difference into a major source of strife, and fanned the flames by arming both sides and sitting back to watch the fun and profit from it.

[Cantacuzene]

That may be the case, I've read very little about the specifics, but I do know that the african tribes have been fighting well before white men got there.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
but I do know that the african tribes have been fighting well before white men got there.

duh. everyone fights. nobody needed to be told THAT. stating that added or subtracted exactly zero point sh1t from the original point.

okay, that sounded harsh, but rather than edit it, i'll add this disclaimer: not bashing you. just that particular statement. don't think you're an idiot for saying it; i'm just trying to REALLY drive home the point that yes, everyone fights, and saying that they fought before whitey showed up means nothing. white messed up africa. never said they singlehandedly took it from paradise to hell. just that they played a major part in taking it from pretty good to pretty bad.

[Napoleon54]

Originally posted by mojo
we have civil cases all the time that have more to do with "he said/she said" stuff and less with laws being specifically broken. such i guess is "the spirit of the law," wherein not everything needs to be specified as law to allow or disallow. not to mention that it's debatable in itself as to whether slavery was ever even constitutional.

I've done a bit of reading, and everything that I have seen indicates that a lawsuit must be based on a violation of the law. Courts exist to enforce laws. Even the "he said/ she said" type cases must prove that a law was broken, be it breach of contract, fraud, slander, whatever.

Here's a definition:

"LAWSUIT - A legal action started by a plaintiff against a defendant based on a complaint that the defendant failed to perform a legal duty, resulting in harm to the plaintiff." source (http://lectlaw.com/def/l054.htm)

Here's an example case:

"To figure out whether you have a good case, it helps to know that lawyers break each type of lawsuit ("cause of action" in attorney-speak) into a short list of required elements. It follows that as long as you know what the elements are for your type of lawsuit, it's usually fairly easy to determine whether you have a good case. For example, a lawsuit against a contractor for doing substandard construction would be for breach of contract (the contractor agreed either orally or in writing to do the job properly)." Source (http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/article.cfm/objectID/81D91BD4-99C6-4FA9-A338AB7FB2198FB2/catID/DCA1178C-B579-49DC-AECDFCB8A7E9A20B)

If you know that this is not the case then could you provide me with a source of information? I try to be as informed as possible and would appreciate any help you could offer.

As far as slavery being unconstitutional pre-1865, I'd be interested to hear what you have to say. Keep in mind that the Constitution can, and was designed to be, interpreted in many ways. Basically the Constitution means whatever the Supreme Court says it does at the time and its meaning can change depending on the court and with time.

[Memo]

Originally posted by DarkFury
Well... if you are gonna go there, don't forget to mention that some of them who owned slaves actually were buying back their own families...

As you might have heard in history classes, many a family were broken up and separated due to slavery, and when some became free... they took it upon themselves to buy their kinfolk out of servitude as well. Yet and still... you have all kinds in the mix and I am sure that there were a small percentage that did their "evils" as well. Just like in society today... not everyone is gonna "play by the rules".


BTW, on a side note... I noticed that somehow OJ got included in this thread. I just KNEW that he was gonna get named eventually, even in a totally unrelated topic. That man is marked for life...

Ya, I was talking about actually slave owners for work though. The people who bought back their families did not enslave them.

[mojo]

let's just say that i've been in enough suits to know that they don't all have to do with violations of the law. since law can be interpreted in many ways, that part is left for the lawyer to decide how to present it. that's why joe shmoe can slip on a wet floor and claim negligence or whatever. kmart was "negligent" for not mopping that schitt up immediately as it was spilled. or they were "negligent" for having a surface that becomes slick when wet. or they were "negligent" for allowing such a thing to happen. there are always variables for these things...like time lapsed between the spill and the fall, if people were notified, how the substance was there, etc. then there is the question of the ownership of the property...the list goes on.

what i'm saying here is that people can sue for anything. maybe it will get thrown out. maybe it's a big nothing. but not knowing the particulars of the case, as the article wasn't exactly in-depth, i'd have to say that nobody here would be able to say if it's "valid" or not. a decent lawyer isn't gonna take a case like this if it's just a big nothing or if they feel like there is nothing to go on. personally i'm waiting for that to develop.

as for the whole amendment 13 (i believe that was it) to the constitution and stuff...well, i didn't put in a reference because i saw that a simple google put up quite a few links...and so i didn't want to site any one source.

at any rate, like i said...i'll wait to find out the goods they have. that seems to be the wisest thing in figuring the validity of the case.

[whitak24]

Originally posted by DarkFury

I think I found your article that you were referring to: http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/2001/february/ww_reparations_slavery_false.htm
ok, not to nitpick, but i'm reading that article, and here's what i find:

HR 40 has 48 co-sponsors and a number of them, such as Jim Traficant, D-Mich., and Jerry Nadler, D-N.Y., are white.
Jim Traficant is from Ohio. there'a difference. i'm sorry, but i really cannot take a "news source" or an author seriously if they can't even get the MOST BASIC facts right.

to me, if someone is taking enough time to check a VERY accessible fact like what state a U.S. Congressman represents, i have an EXTREMELY hard time believing that they put an extensive amount of time or thought into checking the logic of their argument.

in addition, if i see a fact and i know immediately that it's wrong, it makes me wonder whether other facts that i can't independently verify without research are inaccurate as well.

basically, what i'm saying is that imo, that article and capitalism magazine in general are crap if they can't check such simple facts.

[whitak24]

as far as the "blacks are better off here than they would be if they had stayed in africa, therefore reparations are not owed/are not necessary" argument:

1.) this argument as a whole is invalid.
extreme example to prove my point: a family adopts a child from a poor family. they raise him in the finest blue blood tradition -- prep schools, harvard, vacations on martha's vineyard, etc. he gets an MBA from wharton and goes is hired by GoldmanSachs, making six figures as a fund manager. it is clear to even the casual observer that the child is better off than he was before he was adopted.

now, add this twist: the family molested the child from the time of adoption until the time he left for college.

does this change the facts of the situation: that the boy is better off now than had he not been adopted? absolutely not. facts stand.
but does the fact that the boy ended up better off than before excuse or justify the fact that the parents treated him in a morally rehensible way? once again, no.

my point: just because the end result is positive, it does not absolve responsibility for wrongs committed along the way.

even if you reject my argument in #1, look at this:
2.) blacks are not better off today because "better off" is a measurement relative to our standards. perhaps by other standards, blacks would have been better off staying in africa.

this agument was central to (and i'm borrowing it from) the American Indian Movement (AIM) of the 1970s (led by activists like Leonard Peltier). its central point was that it is arrogant and misguided for us to look at another culture and say that they should "want" to be in a "better condition" that we offer them, a condition which would destroy their culture when it was adopted.

this is a difficult argument to me, but it still has value. people should be able to decide how they want to live. to me, i really would not want to go "back to nature", giving up cars, airplanes, modern medicine, my computer, my cell phone, my apartment, etc etc etc. but that's me. if someone else wants to do that, then that is their choice.

however, the africans kidnapped and placed in slavery in the american south never had that choice. they were taken from their homes and their cultures by force and given ours. from our standpoint, they benefited. but maybe not from their standpoint. and we can't really make a judgement.

[welfareloser]

:stupid:

very well-crafted argument; always nice to see one o them. you're a poet.

[whitak24]

Originally posted by welfareloser
:stupid:

very well-crafted argument; always nice to see one o them. you're a poet.
thanks :blush:

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by welfareloser

just that they played a major part in taking it from pretty good to pretty bad.

I'm not bashing you when I say that it never was pretty good in the first place. It was pretty bad, then went ot a different form of pretty bad.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene


I'm not bashing you when I say that it never was pretty good in the first place. It was pretty bad, then went ot a different form of pretty bad.

then i'm disagreeing with you. i don't think you'll find many scholars of african history that will say that whitey simply caused a lateral shift in the condition of africans... most signs point to downward.

[xsiled2]

on the same theme but different topic..

why o o why are there black muslums.

i will NEVER understand this, considering they are STILL using slavery.

another thing,

slavery in the US at those times was a legal biz, untill it wasn't no matter how bad it was it was legal. how many "african americans" are 100% african.

and no mojo i am not implying that slavery is right.

[OC]

Originally posted by DarkFury
"Legal" doesn't mean "Right"This is the one and only thing I'm going to say on this topic. With few exceptions, every atrocity all through history has been "legal". Wrong, perhaps - likely even. But still legal.

Laws evolve with society. Sueing for an old law is like sueing for a 1990 Lexus that is not as good as a 2002 model.

-OC

[xsiled2]

this thread is going no where...

[mojo]

Originally posted by overclocked
This is the one and only thing I'm going to say on this topic. With few exceptions, every atrocity all through history has been "legal". Wrong, perhaps - likely even. But still legal.

Laws evolve with society. Sueing for an old law is like sueing for a 1990 Lexus that is not as good as a 2002 model.

-OC laws contradict each other all the time. some laws will say something is legal when another law will say something else.

[sbp]

Originally posted by DarkFury

Where did that first question come from? You could easily ask... Why are there "Black Jews"? Probably because we have "freedom of religion" in this country. Personally, I'm a Baptist.

How are they using slavery... you gotta explain that one to me because I am confused. xsiled is talking about the taking of the Muslim religion by those who think they are throwing off the slavemasters religion by becoming Muslims. Ironically in doing so, these folks are embracing that which was enslaving Africans long before the white man showed up in Africa and which enslaved more Africans.

Currently in Sudan (http://www.southsudanfriends.org/issues/slavery.html) Muslims from the Muslim north go down to the Christian south to take slaves. This has been going on for many years. Sadly this is not the only African country where widespread slavery is occurring.

[Cantacuzene]

Black Muslims have been around for a while, anyone remember Mansa Musa and from Mali? Black Africans have also been Christians for a while too, Ethiopia converted to Christianity in the 2nd century, on their own accord, not a forced conversion and remains the old christian country in the world. The missionaries in the 16th century were baffled when they went to convert the Ehtiopians to find out they were already Christian. Pretty funny actually.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
The missionaries in the 16th century were baffled when they went to convert the Ehtiopians to find out they were already Christian. Pretty funny actually.

that is pretty funny; i never knew that. it'd be interesting to see how the religion diverged between the west and ethiopa, since they remained isolated for so many centuries...

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by welfareloser


that is pretty funny; i never knew that. it'd be interesting to see how the religion diverged between the west and ethiopa, since they remained isolated for so many centuries...

Interestingly enough, the Ethiopians practice the "purest" form of Christianity. They don't use any dogma that was created after Eastern Roman Empire lost Egypt and they became isolated. Basically, they are Orthodox Christians from the year 600. They use the 3rd oldest christian rite in the world, oldest being eastern orthodox, then egptian coptic then ethiopian. One thing is that the Ethiopians havent changed theirs at all in the past 1400 years.

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene


I have to respond to this. If the white man had never set foot on africa what do you think it would be? A paradise where everyone gets along and lives in peace? Hell no. They would still be fighting every bit as savagly as they are now, just for different reasons. They would prolly technologically a great deal worse off I have to assume.

um, this was a very uneducated remark. you need to read the book called "Before The Mayflower." I can't remember who wrote it, but that's ok. Reading the first few chapters of this incredible book you see that the histroy of Africa isn't a bunch of people shaking spears while wearing only loin cloths. that's just ignorant western perception. the early African nations had some of the most sophisticated governments, economies, and technological circles. while europe was jsut Germanic tribes and barbarians and what not, Africa was home to cultural and economic centers. they were bustling and advanced beyond anything of the day. had whitey not interfered, i think they'd be doing a lot better. I'm not going to into the details, but really, you should read that book. it's an excellent, ACCURATE historical account. i learned a lot from it.

i am Belgian and you wannn know something, we fuked up central Africa, especially what's now the DRC. colonization in Africa didn't do them a bit of good. it's sorta like your neighbor coming over and killing your lawn while trying to tell you how to fertilize. it's one of those things where you'd prefer to have killed it yourself than to have it inflicted on you by someone else. even if, and it's a big IF, Africa would be in the same deplorable state it is in now, that is in no way a bona fide way to side step the western responsibility for problems in Africa.

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by BrewMaster


um, this was a very uneducated remark. you need to read the book called "Before The Mayflower." I can't remember who wrote it, but that's ok. Reading the first few chapters of this incredible book you see that the histroy of Africa isn't a bunch of people shaking spears while wearing only loin cloths. that's just ignorant western perception. the early African nations had some of the most sophisticated governments, economies, and technological circles. while europe was jsut Germanic tribes and barbarians and what not, Africa was home to cultural and economic centers. they were bustling and advanced beyond anything of the day. had whitey not interfered, i think they'd be doing a lot better. I'm not going to into the details, but really, you should read that book. it's an excellent, ACCURATE historical account. i learned a lot from it.



You are confusing muslim north africa with central africa. There were no large commercial centers in central or south africa. The Mali in west africa and the Merroah in east africa were the most advanced black african cultures south of Egpyt ever. The mali existed in the 1200-1300s and the Merroah were Egyptian contemporaries. The "Germanic" period in western europe you talk about (which is an uneducated, high school level view of the dark ages) was from the years 500-900. You won't find a Sub-Saharran [sic] culture more advanced than France or Spain in those years.

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene


You are confusing muslim north africa with central africa. There were no large commercial centers in central or south africa. The Mali in west africa and the Merroah in east africa were the most advanced black african cultures south of Egpyt ever. The mali existed in the 1200-1300s and the Merroah were Egyptian contemporaries. The "Germanic" period in western europe you talk about (which is an uneducated, high school level view of the dark ages) was from the years 500-900. You won't find a Sub-Saharran [sic] culture more advanced than France or Spain in those years.
everything you said is true, except that i am confusing anything. i'm not. to give you one example from "Before the Mayfloer" by Lerone Bennett Jr, he talks about Taharka, the greatest Ethiopian king who took the throne in 690 BC. He fought against the Romans and the successors after him ,a series of Queens called Candaces ruled. THey also fought the romans unseucessfully. anyway, i thinkyoushould read this book. it's very good.

as i'm looking back on this thread, it has diverged severly from the original topic. part of that is my fault by bringing up the African civilizations.

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by BrewMaster

the greatest Ethiopian king who took the throne in 690 BC. He fought against the Romans

Thats amazing, being the city of Rome was only founded 50 or so years before and the Romans wouldnt have any interest in Africa for another 400 or so years. I assume you just misquoted that because I doubt the book would make a glaring mistake.

[xsiled2]

Originally posted by BrewMaster


i am Belgian.

i thought you were "palistinian".....

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by xsiled2


i thought you were "palistinian".....
mom is belgian and dad is palestinian.

[xsiled2]

ah, direct mix,

cpufudgepacker- most people in this country are mutts, they have more then 2 "races" within their blood. usually when someone says they are off a "group" that is unlike ireland,... etc. (europe) they are of direct nationality, brew quickly explained this without your crap.

-°Dork°

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene


Thats amazing, being the city of Rome was only founded 50 or so years before and the Romans wouldnt have any interest in Africa for another 400 or so years. I assume you just misquoted that because I doubt the book would make a glaring mistake.

sorry, i think this is right. see page 11 of "Before the Mayflower" (6th edition). even if you don't read it for the sake of this discussion, i recommend reading it for your own personal enrichment.

i don't know how our info differs, but whatever, i don't really care about this discussion. it's not that exciting. the reparations discussion is much more intersting. history is interesting to a point, but now it's boring me. i don't think i'll be back to this thread. sorry.

[BrewMaster]

i removed what i originally said here. these are not the droids you're looking for.


move along...

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by BrewMaster


sorry, i think this is right. see page 11 of "Before the Mayflower" (6th edition). even if you don't read it for the sake of this discussion, i recommend reading it for your own personal enrichment.
i don't know how our info differs

The difference is the Romans had barely founded their city in 690 b.c. We are talking 300 years before the Pelopenessian War in Greece. If the author actually wrote that the ethiopians fought the Romans in 690 b.c then he needs a new editor or he is a total quack.

[LPMiller]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene


The difference is the Romans had barely founded their city in 690 b.c. We are talking 300 years before the Pelopenessian War in Greece. If the author actually wrote that the ethiopians fought the Romans in 690 b.c then he needs a new editor or he is a total quack.

Well, it's easy to get confused when you are counting time backwards :D