Bush Presses Senate for Cloning Ban

[hapoo]

katie in the new avatar??

[Hiro]

There are always two sides to a story. Especially when cloning certain parts of the human anatomy (hearts, livers, lungs, etc) can actually save lives instead of just cloning an entire human being.

[Hiro]

Originally posted by hapoo
katie in the new avatar??
Looks like the girl from American Beauty. Im not positive on her name.

[hapoo]

Originally posted by Corsec

Looks like the girl from American Beauty. Im not positive on her name.


Mena Suvari? could be

[Hiro]

Originally posted by hapoo
Mena Suvari? could be
yea, thats the name.

[JPR]

I direct your attention to the new Star Wars film what was it called?? Oh yeah.. ATTACK OF THE CLONES!!! :eek: :P

[molecularfire]

I dunno about this ban on cloning thing. The only thing they've done so far is to limit federal money to do research on it. That way, schools can't do research on this stuff, but private companies can pony up their own cash and do the research. Not sure that's a scenario that I feel comfortable with.

Also... I'm not sure that I have a problem with cloning cells. I can understand a ban that prohibited cloning actual people (or even animals for that matter) but if you're just cloning some cells to treat a disease, I don't see why that's a bad thing.

Please feel free to comment, but do NOT flame me. Just because I'm a guy doesn't mean that I'm not sensitive. :)

[CornMonkey]

Originally posted by molecularfire
Please feel free to comment, but do NOT flame me. Just because I'm a guy doesn't mean that I'm not sensitive. :)

hahaha...nice.

as for me, i'm not too sure about this whole cloning thing... i mean, though it can provide for some incredible medical break-throughs, it can also give too much room for people to play god.

[jase71]

Unfortunately, the technology is already out there. Banning the use of it doesn't make it go away.

If we ban cloning in the US, all we really do is make sure the first clone will be created outside the US, and outside our control and supervision.

Realistically, we can't stop it. We can't even slow it down. Allowing it here, with strongly enforced guidelines, would at least put it somewhat under our control, and let us make sure some kind of ethics are involved.

[Markel]

Originally posted by jase71
If we ban cloning in the US, all we really do is make sure the first clone will be created outside the US, and outside our control and supervision.

Realistically, we can't stop it. We can't even slow it down. Allowing it here, with strongly enforced guidelines, would at least put it somewhat under our control, and let us make sure some kind of ethics are involved.
If it "will be created...outside our control", how does allowing it here guarantee that our ethics/guidelines will be enforced in areas outside our control? :confused:

I can't buy the "somebody else will do it anyway" arguement. If we feel that there are moral problems with cloning human beings, then let the "somebody elses" sink into the "moral cesspool" and stay out of it ourselves.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by Markel

I can't buy the "somebody else will do it anyway" arguement. If we feel that there are moral problems with cloning human beings, then let the "somebody elses" sink into the "moral cesspool" and stay out of it ourselves.

:stupid:

"someone else is gonna do it anyway" is always a bad argument.

some better ones...

i can understand being afraid of the potential for abuse. but banning the technique outright is a stupid way to prevent the potential abuses... JUST OUTLAW THE ABUSES. duh. BIG duh when you consider that the technology has very little immediate potential... cloning is difficult, it rarely works, and the occasional successful products of cloning are looooooow quality... so it's not like we need to say "whoa we need to put a stop to it now, in the short term, so it doesn't get out of hand, and after we've thought about it and debated it we can decide which parts of it to allow."

so, let's go ahead and disallow the cloning of a complete human being... a moot point anyway since it's going to remain impossible for quite some time, but something that most prudent ppl can agree upon.

then, let's go ahead and allow the cloning of a friggin liver or blood cells to save lives.

anything in between, let's start debating it now so we can have some guidelines in place by the time it becomes possible (in the next 10-50 years.)

[jase71]

Originally posted by Markel

If it "will be created...outside our control", how does allowing it here guarantee that our ethics/guidelines will be enforced in areas outside our control? :confused:

If it happens inside the US, it's subject to any laws we pass, or any restrictions we place on it. Thus, if we create laws that state that parts may be cloned, but whole people cannot, companies in the US are legally restricted from cloning entire people.

If we ban cloning entirely, and they decide to create clones outside the US, then we have no control over what they create. They are not subject to our legal system.

An analogy... learning to shoot a gun is potentially dangerous. Would you rather have your teenager learn to do it under your supervision? Or rely on him learning in a field with his teenage buddies where you can't see him or watch him?



I can't buy the "somebody else will do it anyway" arguement. If we feel that there are moral problems with cloning human beings, then let the "somebody elses" sink into the "moral cesspool" and stay out of it ourselves.

Is ALL cloning unethical? Immoral? Or only parts of it?

Rather than a ban on ALL cloning for fear of the parts that are unethical, why not allow, under supervision, the ethical procedures, and practices that are beneficial?

It comes down to whether you believe there is ANY ethical use for cloning. If there is, I'd rather see it happen here, where we can watch for the unethical parts. I happen to think there are some potential legitimate and ethical uses for cloning

If you believe ALL cloning is unethical, regardless of circumstances, then there's little point to arguing, because my suggestion obviously wouldn't be viable in that case.

Maybe we should clarify... do you believe there are ANY legitimate uses for cloning?

[Markel]

I don't take a stand entirely against cloning, but I think a very careful approach must be taken. I think between the "Ban cloning entirely" and "Let's make another me!" extremes, there is some sort of a line that needs to be drawn.

There are a lot of "sticky" matters that get involved which bear careful consideration. I think there are reasons for staying away from some of the human embryo matters ("Let's make a baby so we can harvest it's <whatever>"), and in a similar way I would never want to see organs being "harvested" from convicts (as is purported to be done in some places).

And please don't think that I am attributing any of the above thinking to anybody in the forums. I'm just sorta "painting with ideas".

[jase71]

Originally posted by Markel
I don't take a stand entirely against cloning, but I think a very careful approach must be taken. I think between the "Ban cloning entirely" and "Let's make another me!" extremes, there is some sort of a line that needs to be drawn.

I think that's where the vast majority of people stand... with only a few on either extreme.

My point was only that if cloning is done here, WE decide where that line is drawn, and what falls under "ethical uses" and what falls under "unethical uses".

If we ban cloning entirely, we push it overseas to other places that WILL allow it. And then THEY draw the line between ethical and unethical, not us. We no longer have any say in it.

Personally, I'd rather have a say...

[mojo]

if they're so against cloning...instead of banning, or in addition to, why don't they just "clone protect" all the humans out there? then you don't have to worry about illicitly obtained humans, mass human trading, etc. i mean, the technology will be hacked in time of course, but this would just be to keep the honest people honest.

[Markel]

jase, I don't disagree with the thought that we need careful guidelines. And while our guidelines might be a guiding factors in some other places, there will almost certainly be yet other places that will take a completely different track (just as in many human rights issues).

There is a current press topic about the issue of human cloning (as someone's claim that there is an 8-week old cloned embryo implanted in a woman). Here's (http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/097/nation/Clone_report_galls_scientists+.shtml) one story about it.

By the way, gotta love the newest addition to google - go to the advanced search page and look at the "News Search (BETA)".

[jase71]

Originally posted by mojo
if they're so against cloning...instead of banning, or in addition to, why don't they just "clone protect" all the humans out there? then you don't have to worry about illicitly obtained humans, mass human trading, etc. i mean, the technology will be hacked in time of course, but this would just be to keep the honest people honest.

They can do whatever they want as long as they don't infringe upon my right to make a backup copy of myself so I'm protected in case of a crash. :P

[Markel]

Originally posted by jase71
They can do whatever they want as long as they don't infringe upon my right to make a backup copy of myself so I'm protected in case of a crash. :P
If Bill Gates gets his way, that might not be such a bad idea! :eek: :eek3:

[jase71]

Originally posted by Markel
jase, I don't disagree with the thought that we need careful guidelines. And while our guidelines might be a guiding factors in some other places, there will almost certainly be yet other places that will take a completely different track (just as in many human rights issues).

There is a current press topic about the issue of human cloning (as someone's claim that there is an 8-week old cloned embryo implanted in a woman). Here's (http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/097/nation/Clone_report_galls_scientists+.shtml) one story about it.

True, we can't police the rest of the world... and there are going to be some pretty unethical people out there doing reprehensible things. There's no way to avoid that. As long as there's a profit to be made, people will do anything to make it.

But for those willing to play by the rules we set, for those looking for legitimate and ethical uses for cloning, I see no reason to push them overseas and out of our control.

Let them work here, ethically and legally, and under the guidelines set by us. We can watch them, benefit from them, and ensure that at least THEY are behaving in an ethical manner. No need to force them out to co-habitate with the mad scientists.

I guess I just don't want to see the baby tossed out with the bathwater.



By the way, gotta love the newest addition to google - go to the advanced search page and look at the "News Search (BETA)".

Hey, that's cool. Thanks for pointing it out!

[jase71]

Originally posted by Markel

If Bill Gates gets his way, that might not be such a bad idea! :eek: :eek3:

There'll be no Microsoft blood coursing through my veins!

I'll GPL my DNA long before that happens!

No way I'm going to risk having my kidneys blue screen! ;)

[whitak24]

Originally posted by jase71
No way I'm going to risk having my kidneys blue screen! ;)
kidneys?!?

i'm more worried about my brain being forced to run WindowsME2010 :eek:

[jase71]

Originally posted by whitak24

i'm more worried about my brain being forced to run WindowsME2010 :eek:

Oh, I don't know...

I don't see how it could make you any more unstable than
you already are... :D

[whitak24]

Originally posted by jase71


Oh, I don't know...

I don't see how it could make you any more unstable than
you already are... :D
hahahahaha

i don't even have any comeback worth using for that :D

[molecularfire]

I agree with Jase on one thing... we can't police the rest of the world. Heck, researchers are currently going to Italy, and other countries that are a little more lax on doing experiments on humans to do a lot of their research (note I'm not picking on Italy. The reason it's a popular place for researchers to go to is because it's human experimenting laws are a little more lax than the U.S. but not so lax that the researcher would get a bad rep. ). Anyways, people will do the research for the therapeutic effects anyways. What the U.S. needs to do is to get a bunch of countries together an make a ban on cloning people. I'm NOT a supporter of cloning people (one of me is already one too many). I am however a supporter of cloning cells to help people. While I don't support abortion (please do NOT make this a debate on abortion), I see no point in throwing away the fetal tissue as long as the process is allowed. I do NOT support abortions just to get the tissue, but if there can be some good to be gotten from it, I'm all for it.