Workin' the system

[WhiskeyPapa]

Just had to pass along something I observed over the weekend...

I was at Wal-Mart waiting in line at the service counter. In front of me was a couple, probably in their later 50s. They wanted to return a can of baby formula without a receipt. The cashier asked to see the lady's driver's license, punched in her number and said "Sorry, you can't return this, you've already returned 3 cans of formula."

The lady then had the nerve to ask if the cashier would check her husband's license. She punched in the number and gave the same answer - he had also previously returned 3 cans of formula.

So they had to walk out with their formula, and without 10 bucks.

I have no doubt that this couple got the formula with a WIC voucher or food stamps, and wanted to get cash to buy smokes, chips, underwear or whatever.

In fact, they seemed way too old to have a baby, and most likely were getting cash for their grandchild's formula. :angry:

[ribitch]

Originally posted by kb0wwp
Just had to pass along something I observed over the weekend...

I was at Wal-Mart waiting in line at the service counter. In front of me was a couple, probably in their later 50s. They wanted to return a can of baby formula without a receipt. The cashier asked to see the lady's driver's license, punched in her number and said "Sorry, you can't return this, you've already returned 3 cans of formula."

The lady then had the nerve to ask if the cashier would check her husband's license. She punched in the number and gave the same answer - he had also previously returned 3 cans of formula.

So they had to walk out with their formula, and without 10 bucks.

I have no doubt that this couple got the formula with a WIC voucher or food stamps, and wanted to get cash to buy smokes, chips, underwear or whatever.

In fact, they seemed way too old to have a baby, and most likely were getting cash for their grandchild's formula. :angry:

the town my university is in also has an indian reservation. The tribe memebers get 75000 a year PER person (over 18 that is 100% tribal) from the casino and dont have to do a damn thing. Since most stay unemployed, they try to get and free government service they can, welfare, unemployement, you name it. Lazy bastards.

[sbp]

Its easier for the lazy asses to sponge off the taxpayers than get a job. That is the type of mentality the leechers have: they are owed this and that. Meanwhile some who do need help, don't get it.

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by ribitch


the town my university is in also has an indian reservation. The tribe memebers get 75000 a year PER person (over 18 that is 100% tribal) from the casino and dont have to do a damn thing. Since most stay unemployed, they try to get and free government service they can, welfare, unemployement, you name it. Lazy bastards.

So what is the difference between them and someone who owns a successful business? Rich people take advantage of "the system" far more than poor people do. That is why rich people are rich, and poor people are poor.

[WhiskeyPapa]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
So what is the difference between them and someone who owns a successful business? Rich people take advantage of "the system" far more than poor people do. That is why rich people are rich, and poor people are poor.

Bull.

Someone who owns a "successful business" is providing jobs and economic benefits to the community.

Who contributes more - a person who employs the workers in their business, domestic help around their home, pays their dry cleaner, pool cleaner, auto mechanic, and so on...

...or the person who takes their FREE can of formula back to Wal-Mart?

Read "The Millionaire Next Door" and you'll see why rich people are rich. It has nothing to do with taking advantage of "the system".

[Memo]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy


So what is the difference between them and someone who owns a successful business? Rich people take advantage of "the system" far more than poor people do. That is why rich people are rich, and poor people are poor.

What kind of bull**** is that? Not everyone that owns a business is corrupt.

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by UT Memo


What kind of bull**** is that? Not everyone that owns a business is corrupt.

There is a difference between taking advantage of the system and being corrupt.


Bull.

Someone who owns a "successful business" is providing jobs and economic benefits to the community.

Who contributes more - a person who employs the workers in their business, domestic help around their home, pays their dry cleaner, pool cleaner, auto mechanic, and so on...

...or the person who takes their FREE can of formula back to Wal-Mart?

Read "The Millionaire Next Door" and you'll see why rich people are rich. It has nothing to do with taking advantage of "the system".

What is the difference between a successful business and a Casino? The Casino you are talking about seems to be damn successful if every tribe member over 18 gets $75,000 a year.

Oh, and btw, I'm not sure I know of anyone on welfare that makes $75K/year.

[Memo]

I don't see much difference between playing the system and being corrupt. Just because it isn't always illegal doesn't make it right. There are lots of legit business owned by good people.

[molecularfire]

What is the difference between a successful business and a Casino? The Casino you are talking about seems to be damn successful if every tribe member over 18 gets $75,000 a year.

Uh... who's saying that there's anything wrong with the casino. IMO, the casino is doing well and trying to give something back to their community (i.e. the reservation). It's the lazy people who just take the 75K and don't work that I have a problem with. First of all, just because you have money is no reason to not work. Heck, in the very least, you should volunteer your time to the casino. Secondly, if you're getting 75K/year, you shouldn't be trying to get welfare. While the original intent of the welfare system was IMO noble, the current system is simply a way of giving lazy/selfish people an avenue of making money that they haven't earned. :angry:

[whitak24]

Originally posted by molecularfire


Uh... who's saying that there's anything wrong with the casino. IMO, the casino is doing well and trying to give something back to their community (i.e. the reservation). It's the lazy people who just take the 75K and don't work that I have a problem with. First of all, just because you have money is no reason to not work. Heck, in the very least, you should volunteer your time to the casino. Secondly, if you're getting 75K/year, you shouldn't be trying to get welfare. While the original intent of the welfare system was IMO noble, the current system is simply a way of giving lazy/selfish people an avenue of making money that they haven't earned. :angry:
i don't agree with people who are getting $75k/year going on welfare or other government assistance programs. such programs are designed to help the poor members of society, not rich freeloaders who can make it look like they're poor.

outside of that, if you have $75k coming in every year, i see no reason why you should work. if you don't have to, then don't. i can tell you right now that if i had that kind of cash coming in every year, i would quit my job immediately and start traveling. i'd do stuff that i find fun, like running, watching movies, listening to music, playing my guitars, surfing the internet, etc. i'd see as much of the world as i could.

you only live once. if you have a way to support yourself without working, then WHY would you work? (now i'm not saying that i would never work, but i'd at least have a few years to do what i want)

[molecularfire]

If I had enough saved up so that I was getting $75K off of the interest or something like that, then I might quit my job. If I got it because my community gave it to me, I'd try to earn it by helping out my community. I don't see how these people who get 75K/year from their community and then do nothing but just live off of the money are any different than those people leeching off of the welfare system. :shrug:

[OC]

Originally posted by molecularfire
I don't see how these people who get 75K/year from their community and then do nothing but just live off of the money are any different than those people leeching off of the welfare system. :shrug: I do. Welfare is something that is funded by tax-payers, and applied for by those in need. In this situation, the money does not come from tax-payers (the community), it comes from the patrons of the casino - willing patrons, I might add. Also, this is not something that is applied for, it is a benefit to the residents of the reservation.

If a business wanted to just give you $75k a year, would any of you really say no? I sure as hell wouldn't. I wouldn't work either. I'd use the money to actually live a life, rather than be tied to a job I didn't want to go to. You know, spend more time with my family, pursue my hobbies and interests, travel a bit.

Come to think of it, I have some Native American blood in my veins. I may need to look into this...

Now, the ones that just take the money and let their lives languish - THAT'S a tragedy that should be addressed.

-OC

[jase71]

Originally posted by molecularfire
I don't see how these people who get 75K/year from their community and then do nothing but just live off of the money are any different than those people leeching off of the welfare system. :shrug:

$75K a year is $75K a year. What's the difference if you get it from your tribe, or if you get it as inheritance from your dear departed tycoon daddy?

If I had $75K a year of guaranteed income, I'd be right with whitak, enjoying life while I could. There's no way I'll accomplish everything I want to do before I die... and working just means I'll accomplish even less.

However, if I had $75K a year, I woulnd't be collecting welfare, or unemployment, or food stamps. I'd be counting my blessings, and sticking at least some of it away in case the bounty comes to an early end.

[IntegraTypeR]

i think the welfare system definitely needs to be reformed. it simply doenst work and it drains the govt of $$ ... it pays people to be lazy asses. those ppl should be made to go out and find a job

[whitak24]

Originally posted by jase71
If I had $75K a year of guaranteed income, I'd be right with whitak, enjoying life while I could.
hey, i don't think i ever said that i want you around while i'm enjoying my life :P

just kidding....come to think of it, i think i'd come up to wisconsin so i could chill on your boat, out in a lake :D

[jase71]

Originally posted by whitak24

hey, i don't think i ever said that i want you around while i'm enjoying my life :P

just kidding....come to think of it, i think i'd come up to wisconsin so i could chill on your boat, out in a lake :D

:heh:

Ya know.. for another 75grand, I'd probably go away and
let you enjoy your life... :P

But you're welcome on the boat any time.... :cool:

[molecularfire]

I do. Welfare is something that is funded by tax-payers, and applied for by those in need. In this situation, the money does not come from tax-payers (the community), it comes from the patrons of the casino - willing patrons, I might add. Also, this is not something that is applied for, it is a benefit to the residents of the reservation.

Yes, and these people take the money and do nothing to try to help out. A lot of these casinos do this because they are trying to help out their tribe. Some native american customs have it set up where the people of the tribe work together and whoever has excess shares it with those who don't. It just seems to be to be a shame that they are just getting used by a bunch of lazy bums. :( Eh well... that's what you get for trying to help out someone, I guess.


If a business wanted to just give you $75k a year, would any of you really say no? I sure as hell wouldn't.

I wouldn't say no either, but I would try to do something to earn that money. But then, I guess that I can't expect people to think of anything but what is best for them. :(

btw: Thanks Jase, Whitak, and OC. Sometimes I think that I'm a little too cynical... and then I read something that reminds me how selfish people really are. :shake:

[DoPeY5007]

my x works the system, and well I am bent over with no lubs because it her :angry:

[ribitch]

this casino does very little for the community. It does some, but the city has to keep hitting residents up for more and more taxes. the tribal police have nothing to do all day except give traffic tickets since the area has a lrage state police branch, the county sheriffs office, city police, and university police.

the tribal members often do not keep a steady job resulting in unemployement (go figure), get free schooling yet also recieve grants from the state (dont require payback) since their family isnt employed, and often blow large amounts of cash on drugs.

A guy I worked with had 2 kids of his own, a step son, and a wife. They were making close to 175 a year plus he was working, which meant an additional 20k. He would also take out loans and max out credit cards and do whatever he could for more money. The guy did more drugs than anyone I have ever known. He was always bumming cash off of somebody since he blew his on last nights high. The family cracked me up. His motherinlaw was his dealer, he drove a POS grandam that was often in the shop, his wife drives 1 dodge ram 3500 series decked out and lifted, they lived in a used doiublewide, and he was always broke.

The only things I have ever seen him buy were drugs, computers, and food. The sad thing is this isnt uncommon with tribal members. Sure there are members who arent like this, but a majority of them are

[jase71]

Originally posted by molecularfire

btw: Thanks Jase, Whitak, and OC. Sometimes I think that I'm a little too cynical... and then I read something that reminds me how selfish people really are. :shake:

Hmmm... I think I've just been insulted. :eek: :P

Put your guilt trip on hold until you know what "selfish" things
we might do.

I was a summer camp counselor for five years when I was younger. I loved that job, even though it paid almost nothing. I'm too old to do that now, but I'd love to be a program director, or a camp director. But those jobs are few, are seasonal, and pay very badly. So it's not an option now. With a $75K income, I could take a shot at it. And I could work for free, for the joy, not the paycheck.

I'm just a semester short of my Education certification and a second Bachelor's degree in English. I could teach. I'd love to teach. I'd have gone the last semester, and I'd be a teacher now, if teacher salaries weren't so terrible, and my current salary so good in comparison. $75K a year would let me teach and not worry about the salary. And I'd still have summers off...

Work is what you do to earn a living.

If you do it because you love it, it's not work. It's a hobby, or even a life.

If I had $75K a year, there's no way I'd "work" ever again. There would be no reason to do anything I didn't enjoy. But that doesn't mean I'd sit around, getting fat and stupid. It just means there are a million things out there I could do... some selfish, some not... that I can't do now, because I have to "work".

[OC]

Originally posted by molecularfire
Yes, and these people take the money and do nothing to try to help out. A lot of these casinos do this because they are trying to help out their tribe. Some native american customs have it set up where the people of the tribe work together and whoever has excess shares it with those who don't. It just seems to be to be a shame that they are just getting used by a bunch of lazy bums.Who the hell is being used? The CASINO WANTS TO GIVE THEM MONEY! WHO is being used here?

-OC

[attgig]

Originally posted by ribitch


the town my university is in also has an indian reservation. The tribe memebers get 75000 a year PER person (over 18 that is 100% tribal) from the casino and dont have to do a damn thing. Since most stay unemployed, they try to get and free government service they can, welfare, unemployement, you name it. Lazy bastards.

if you got 75k a year - would you work?


Originally posted by molecularfire
Uh... who's saying that there's anything wrong with the casino. IMO, the casino is doing well and trying to give something back to their community (i.e. the reservation). It's the lazy people who just take the 75K and don't work that I have a problem with. First of all, just because you have money is no reason to not work. Heck, in the very least, you should volunteer your time to the casino. Secondly, if you're getting 75K/year, you shouldn't be trying to get welfare. While the original intent of the welfare system was IMO noble, the current system is simply a way of giving lazy/selfish people an avenue of making money that they haven't earned. :angry:

and of all places to volunteer - would you really volunteer at the casino...

the tragedy of the whole native american situation is that they get 75k a year, and end up spending all of it at the casino.

(yes sweeping generalization) but it's just human nature - stick any person in that situation - same thing's gonna happen.

[whitak24]

Originally posted by jase71
But that doesn't mean I'd sit around, getting fat and stupid.
"getting" fat and stupid. i thought.....

no, wait, i'll stop right now :P :heh:

other than that, :stupid:

like i said, i'd do stuff that i "want" to do. that doesn't mean i'd be a drag on society. it just means that i wouldn't hold on to a job i hate.

as far as the indians and their casinos.....basically, the indians are finally getting back some of the money that they were screwed out of years ago. while i'm not a big fan of casino gambling, the government made treaties with the indians that said they could do it. we've broken so many treaties with the indians, it's time we kept at least one of them. and, well, if the white men want to give up their money to the indians at the casinos....well, the indians probably deserve it.

basically, there are far fewer jobs at the casinos than indians to fill them. basically, a casino rakes in a TON of money relative to the people it employs. usually, all this money just lines the pockets of some tycoon (ie Donald Trump). in this case, it's distributed among the members of the tribe.

yes, it's unfortunate that some of them waste their lives and ruin their families with their addictions to alcohol and drugs. my grandfather was a prime example of this, and his mother and father are even better examples of the sad, wasted lives of indians, both on and off the reservation.

but those are personal choices and personal addictions. they are only emphasized the casino money (alcoholism and other addictions have been scourges of reservations for as long as the reservations have existed).

once again, i hold that indians out blowing their casino money on whatever they want is no different than some rich boy snorting his trust fund up his nose.

[Ladogaboy]

I'm interested in finding out exactly how much ribitch actually knows about this local casino, reservation, and tribe of his.

There are a few things I would like to say first, however.

1) Many of the highest profit Indian Casinos belong to relatively small tribes. In fact, many of the Casinos create more jobs than there are tribal members. If you were one of 50-100 owners of a multi-million dollar business, would you be the one working as a doorman?

Logically speaking, it is better for the community if the tribal members don't work. They get paid either way and put the money back into the community, but, in addition, by not taking a job, they create more jobs for other people in the community. If that isn't giving back to the community, I don't know what is.

2) You are making judgements about how these people are spending their money. It is not your place to make those judgements. If a guy wants go to out and blow all of his money on drugs, let him. He will either die or be arrested eventually. But that is his decision.

3) You make it sound like these Indians are taking free handouts. How much does the U.S. government really owe them? Can you come up with a monetary figure? Consider this, with every contract and treaty that was broken, with every unjust war that was fought, the U.S. essentially stole 90% of its land holdings. Land that would have belonged to Indian tribes. Think about that every time you take a step, every time you look down. The very ground you walk on should, by all rights, belong to those people leeching off the government system. How much, exactly, is that worth?

4) When it comes to Indians in America, I can really only speak from personal experiences. There is a Casino near where I live/grew up, as well as several reservations and rancherias... The Casino has done nothing but good for the community. It has bought new houses for all of the tribal members. It has paid for and encouraged the children to pursue higher education. It has built a health center and medical clinic for the tribal members. It has created several hundred jobs for members of the community outside of the tribe. I know that's not much. :rolleyes:

As for another reservation, about 60 miles away with no casino or other Indian owned business, their tribal members are living well below the poverty line. The reservation is rife with drugs and alcohol. Most of the children are lucky to finish High School (and trust me, it's not tough to get a diploma there). The suicide rate is extremely high (a friend of mine just killed himself about 2 years ago; he was the same age as his father was when he committed suicide). There is not privacy because all of the doors on the houses are broken; the windows have been broken out; there are usually 2-3 families living per house.

Then again, they do get to leech off the system... I forgot. When they turn 18, they get a $650/month stipend from the government, given that they live on the reservation. That might be good, if there were actually any jobs within 50 miles of the reservation, but there aren't. Oh well, right, they can always take advantage of welfare like the rest of them Indians...

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by UT Memo
I don't see much difference between playing the system and being corrupt. Just because it isn't always illegal doesn't make it right. There are lots of legit business owned by good people.

:hmm: Like Worldcom, Enron, and nVidia? Oh, and don't forget M$ and AOL... :P

In all seriousness, though, you don't get ahead in business by not cutting corners. The difference between many successful business and many unsuccessful businesses is the ability to take advantage of everything they possibly can, whether it be a tax loophole, or a flaw in a marketing law.

[Memo]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy


:hmm: Like Worldcom, Enron, and nVidia? Oh, and don't forget M$ and AOL... :P

In all seriousness, though, you don't get ahead in business by not cutting corners. The difference between many successful business and many unsuccessful businesses is the ability to take advantage of everything they possibly can, whether it be a tax loophole, or a flaw in a marketing law.

Well, I do'nt think you become MEGA-RICH without bending a few rules and using tought business tactics, but there are people who can have pretty succesfull more locally based busineses or smaller ones. Everyone knows corporate America is just a bunch of smart criminals :)

[Showtime]

its just sad.
we are conditioned by our environments.
if you see no future and are raised up seeing people act a certain way chances are you will too. sometimes i think government handouts are designed to slowly kill the people they are supposed to help.
i think they should give help to those that need it but require them to learn skills or work somewhere to supplement it. the amount of alcoholism on tribal lands shows broken spirits and pain.
only they can help themselves(only we can truly help ourselves).
-jel

[molecularfire]

Hmmm... I think I've just been insulted.

1) Sorry Jase, Whitak, and OC. Yesterday was not a particular optimistic day for me. :)

As far as what Jase said he'd do, that's what I'm talking about. Just because you have money doesn't mean that you should spend it on purely selfish things. I think doing things like teaching and being a camp counselor is a good thing. :thumbup:

2) Ribitch, I doubt that your friend's tribe is indicative of how indian tribes normally are, or that someone (ex: your friend) is feeding you some biased info. The casinos that I know actually do pump a lot of money back into their tribes to try to help them up. Unfortunately, money alone is useless. Until the people there are willing to get out of their self-pity, they will get nowhere. Of course, my opinion of indians is also skewed. All of the indians that I know have gotten out of the reservations and are doing pretty well.




Who the hell is being used? The CASINO WANTS TO GIVE THEM MONEY! WHO is being used here?

Lets say that I hit on some girl, get her to love me and believe that I love her. Then, I get her to quit school, get a job and support me. Is she being used, even if she's willing to do it?


if you got 75k a year - would you work?

and of all places to volunteer - would you really volunteer at the casino...

If they were the ones giving me the money, YES!!!


once again, i hold that indians out blowing their casino money on whatever they want is no different than some rich boy snorting his trust fund up his nose.

I agree. I like neither. I think both are just being leeches.


3) You make it sound like these Indians are taking free handouts. How much does the U.S. government really owe them? Can you come up with a monetary figure? Consider this, with every contract and treaty that was broken, with every unjust war that was fought, the U.S. essentially stole 90% of its land holdings. Land that would have belonged to Indian tribes. Think about that every time you take a step, every time you look down. The very ground you walk on should, by all rights, belong to those people leeching off the government system. How much, exactly, is that worth?
Ok... lets get one thing straight. The U.S. has screwed over people of every nationality, race, religion, etc... at some time in our history. Heck, every country has. Get over it. Do you seriously think that all of the tribes were buddies when we got here? NO. They fought amongst themselves for the land that they thought could not be owned. Simply put, we won the fight. Had the roles been reversed, I doubt they would be as generous. I don't see how that justifies them sitting around wallowing in their own self pity. Given that, England should be returned to the saxons (actually, I'm not positive that they were the first ones there anyways), Whales should be returned to the Celtics, Mexico should go back to the Aztecs (or better yet one of the tribes that they eliminated), and the earth should be returned to the Neanderthals (Damn Cro Magnons came and ruined it all)!!!


In all seriousness, though, you don't get ahead in business by not cutting corners. The difference between many successful business and many unsuccessful businesses is the ability to take advantage of everything they possibly can, whether it be a tax loophole, or a flaw in a marketing law.
You mean the laws that prevent them from economically "winning" in a supposedly capatilistic society?


its just sad.
we are conditioned by our environments.
if you see no future and are raised up seeing people act a certain way chances are you will too. sometimes i think government handouts are designed to slowly kill the people they are supposed to help.
i think they should give help to those that need it but require them to learn skills or work somewhere to supplement it. the amount of alcoholism on tribal lands shows broken spirits and pain.
only they can help themselves(only we can truly help ourselves).


:stupid: :stupid: :stupid:

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by molecularfire

Ok... lets get one thing straight. The U.S. has screwed over people of every nationality, race, religion, etc... at some time in our history. Heck, every country has. Get over it. Do you seriously think that all of the tribes were buddies when we got here? NO. They fought amongst themselves for the land that they thought could not be owned. Simply put, we won the fight. Had the roles been reversed, I doubt they would be as generous. I don't see how that justifies them sitting around wallowing in their own self pity. Given that, England should be returned to the saxons (actually, I'm not positive that they were the first ones there anyways), Whales should be returned to the Celtics, Mexico should go back to the Aztecs (or better yet one of the tribes that they eliminated), and the earth should be returned to the Neanderthals (Damn Cro Magnons came and ruined it all)!!!

There is a big difference here... the SAME government that stole those lands in the first place is STILL in power. Complaining because Indians are making a fair amount of money on small plots of land when by all rights they should be the largest land holders in the country is just stupid, imo. And then having the audacity to complain that they are living off of government subsidies?

Come on. That's like taking an entire ethinic group, enslaving them, dragging them thousands of miles from their home, forcing them to labor for generations, suddenly deciding that they deserve to be free, freeing them without any educational or economic support, and then complaining because they are "working the system". But that would never happen in America, right? :rolleyes:

[molecularfire]

There is a big difference here... the SAME government that stole those lands in the first place is STILL in power.

Every country in existence today can claim this prize.


Complaining because Indians are making a fair amount of money on small plots of land when by all rights they should be the largest land holders in the country is just stupid, imo. And then having the audacity to complain that they are living off of government subsidies?

I'm not complining about them making money. Heck, I give cudos to the casinos. They are doing the best with what they've got and are even helping their tribe. They have earned my admiration. The problem that I have are with those who are not trying to help themselves and their tribes by leeching off of their tribe and or the U.S. government.


Come on. That's like taking an entire ethinic group, enslaving them, dragging them thousands of miles from their home, forcing them to labor for generations, suddenly deciding that they deserve to be free, freeing them without any educational or economic support, and then complaining because they are "working the system". But that would never happen in America, right?
Uh... native americans aren't the only group that we've done this to. Why is it that they are the only ones that we're paying? Also, who says that they don't have any educational or economic support. We're giving them money and lets face it... anyone who has applied to schools know that if you have native american blood in you how much easier it is to get into a school. I don't have a problem with that. But, they have to make an effort also. I know native americans who have worked their buts off and they are doing really well. I have no pity for those who use self pity as an excuse for leeching off of others.