World's smallest "desktop" pc..

[Speedfreak]

http://akiba.ascii24.com/akiba/news/2002/06/13/images/images687586.jpg
http://akiba.ascii24.com/akiba/news/2002/06/13/images/images687592.jpg

http://akiba.ascii24.com/akiba/news/2002/06/13/636494-000.html

Akiba always has the coolest stuff. ;)

[Cheesypuff]

it's like a I-mac without a crt!!! ha ha ha

[NuTs62]

oh how i'd hate to be surfing with that one.. can you just imagine how slow that sucker would run..?

[ribitch]

has anyone seen those computers built into a keyboard? I wonder how the 2 compare.

[bachviet]

Too small for my taste! :eek:

[Hiro]

No floppy drive. :P

[skynet]

How much doe these cost and where can you buy one?

[Speedfreak]

Originally posted by NuTs62
oh how i'd hate to be surfing with that one.. can you just imagine how slow that sucker would run..?

It takes a P3. Not bad at all. I wouldn't call that slow, but it's not the fastest.

[xsiled2]

i dont think its the smallest.... tigerdirect had one that had a smaller base that might have been about 2 centimeters taller.

[DoPeY5007]

:wow:, that think is cool!!!

[attgig]

http://www.arstechnica.com/reviews/01q2/cappuccino/cappuccino-1.html

how bout this guy?


http://www.saintsong.com.tw/

not quite as small, but cooler looking imo

[xsiled2]

yea thats it, its not smaller?

[DoPeY5007]

Originally posted by attgig


http://www.saintsong.com.tw/

not quite as small, but cooler looking imo


that is cool, it says this


Boxer 318N come with Dual ether network card ,one for inter net (ADSL) and one for local area network PC plus internet router ready, Target market for Small office or home, to replace standard internet router, become advance internet router PC


not bad!!!

[Tommy Boomfiger]

damn thats small, way too small for me though, no place for all my extra crap

[bachviet]

That would be a perfect size for installing it in a car though!

[ZrEo0]

im goin to build a PC in a orginal nintendo:P

[LegendKiller]

If it can't take an AGP vid card, then its complete crap.


LK

[ribitch]

Originally posted by LegendKiller
If it can't take an AGP vid card, then its complete crap.


LK

why? Because its not a agming system? I highly doubt many people will use this for gaming.

dopey said

Target market for Small office or home, to replace standard internet router, become advance internet router PC

therefore if its acting as a router, it really doesnt need much video interaction. Most people will probably have it headless and use telnet to administer it. The AGP will just up the size and up the cost. How owuld that be a benefit?

[LegendKiller]

I dont see how that could be the target market.


1. An "advanced internet router" targeting is actually pretty stupid. Why? Because people who need an advanced router would BUY one which can have all of the features needed. Routers dont need to have HDD's, CD-roms, or P3-cpu's with 256mb of ram. Thats like designing a 3000 square foot house for an ant. Sure, you could do it, but that doesn't make any sense (unless your rich).

2. The space of a Linksys router is actually smaller than that thing, AND it has an incorporated hub (which that didn't have) along with advanced firewall and other features. Again ,what would be the point of this?


Sure, if you were using it as a computer/router that would be fine. But again, what would be the point? Do you want to mess around with your router and then all of the sudden ahve the whole system go down and your 5 other computers be without access?

Most people I know who have "advanced internet" router PC's use some older system which while small, may not be as small as this, but it was a spare system, and they dont even have a monitor attached to it.

But then, if your going to spend 400-500 bucks on this thing when you can get a $150 dollar Linksys router/hub/print server/firewall, or you can have your Pentium 200 (which is free) do it, then again, whats the point?


Bascially, this thing is NOT designed as a router (if it was, then WHY all firewire and USB stuff...ohh I forgot, this router will also scan stuff and connect 120 gig drives on external ports...but then thats a FILE server, not a router). Its made for somebody who wants a small computer for their desk, who wants a small portable, cheap, but powerful computer for moving, somebody who wants a home theaterPC. Sure, you can make due with a fixed graphics chipset with those, but then again, who is going to know about this unless its in Best Buy. So then it comes down to performance, and most people will want an AGP slot in that area.

Shuttle has been targeting this area for more than a year. Basically, they have been told repeatedly to get an AGP slot in there and THEN sales would take off...what have they done? Plan to put an AGP slot in the next gen small factor PC. Why? Because LANers wanted it, not people who wanted a router, home theaterPC.

Right idea, wrong parts, and incorrect assumptions on the target market.


LK

[ribitch]

Originally posted by LegendKiller
I dont see how that could be the target market.


1. An "advanced internet router" targeting is actually pretty stupid. Why? Because people who need an advanced router would BUY one which can have all of the features needed. Routers dont need to have HDD's, CD-roms, or P3-cpu's with 256mb of ram. Thats like designing a 3000 square foot house for an ant. Sure, you could do it, but that doesn't make any sense (unless your rich).

2. The space of a Linksys router is actually smaller than that thing, AND it has an incorporated hub (which that didn't have) along with advanced firewall and other features. Again ,what would be the point of this?


Sure, if you were using it as a computer/router that would be fine. But again, what would be the point? Do you want to mess around with your router and then all of the sudden ahve the whole system go down and your 5 other computers be without access?

Most people I know who have "advanced internet" router PC's use some older system which while small, may not be as small as this, but it was a spare system, and they dont even have a monitor attached to it.

But then, if your going to spend 400-500 bucks on this thing when you can get a $150 dollar Linksys router/hub/print server/firewall, or you can have your Pentium 200 (which is free) do it, then again, whats the point?


Bascially, this thing is NOT designed as a router (if it was, then WHY all firewire and USB stuff...ohh I forgot, this router will also scan stuff and connect 120 gig drives on external ports...but then thats a FILE server, not a router). Its made for somebody who wants a small computer for their desk, who wants a small portable, cheap, but powerful computer for moving, somebody who wants a home theaterPC. Sure, you can make due with a fixed graphics chipset with those, but then again, who is going to know about this unless its in Best Buy. So then it comes down to performance, and most people will want an AGP slot in that area.

Shuttle has been targeting this area for more than a year. Basically, they have been told repeatedly to get an AGP slot in there and THEN sales would take off...what have they done? Plan to put an AGP slot in the next gen small factor PC. Why? Because LANers wanted it, not people who wanted a router, home theaterPC.

Right idea, wrong parts, and incorrect assumptions on the target market.


LK

an affordable powerful computer with a small footprint. Works for me. But if you are looking in this market, you will need to realize that it will not be as full featured as a full tower. You are also probably using it at work, therefore games will not be run off of it, so a AGP slot really isnt needed.

If you have it at home, then chances are you are not a gamer. The games will cost more than this system will. A hardcore gamer tends to build their own system, and again, this isnt whjat they will buy.

Another use is a portable mp3 player with a cd drive and a harddrive. The power consumption is low, and an AGP card really wont be required. A minimal onstall of linux running an mp3 player that loads a playlist at boot is all that really is required. Throw in a touchscreen lcd, and you have a decent portable player.

once again, the AGP will be totally pointless.

[DoPeY5007]

I would pay a little extra for something cool :shrug:

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by ribitch


an affordable powerful computer with a small footprint. Works for me. But if you are looking in this market, you will need to realize that it will not be as full featured as a full tower. You are also probably using it at work, therefore games will not be run off of it, so a AGP slot really isnt needed.

If you have it at home, then chances are you are not a gamer. The games will cost more than this system will. A hardcore gamer tends to build their own system, and again, this isnt whjat they will buy.

Another use is a portable mp3 player with a cd drive and a harddrive. The power consumption is low, and an AGP card really wont be required. A minimal onstall of linux running an mp3 player that loads a playlist at boot is all that really is required. Throw in a touchscreen lcd, and you have a decent portable player.

once again, the AGP will be totally pointless.


But once again, aimed at the wrong market. You can get portable MP3 players for MUCH less that still take big drives.

At work, sure, but then companies WILL want a full featured system, and they WILL want to go with a company who has a good rep, good warrenty, and will be around for the next decade. They dont know jack about this company...bad business decision.

Home user? Sure, but then again, most home users wont want a system for the criteria listed in the business section. Joe/Jane average will want a Dell/HP/Compaq/Micron, something they KNOW will be there. Not some Shuttle or other manufacturer they have never heard of.

But then, if somebody recommends it to them, it might be good. However, then you have to consider this person thinking "they might want an upgrade so I should make sure they can do that". I dont sell people white elephants that cannot be upgraded.


Again, you give out potential markets, but this thing doesn't fit into those markets. Its much like most of the .com's. They all had "potential markets", but they didn't do enough analysis to realize those markets were SMALL and VERY hard to reach, and thats why they mostly failed.

LK

[Jeffbx]

Originally posted by LegendKiller
If it can't take an AGP vid card, then its complete crap.
LK

Maybe not complete crap, but this would be an annoyance just for the fact that PCI video is dying - not many mfrs are making PCI cards anymore. AGP is not only faster, but much easier to find.

Totally unrelated to the video card issue, I've always wanted to see a PC built as wall art - all the components just hanging there on the wall without a case. Anyone ever seen anything like that?

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by Jeffbx


Maybe not complete crap, but this would be an annoyance just for the fact that PCI video is dying - not many mfrs are making PCI cards anymore. AGP is not only faster, but much easier to find.

Totally unrelated to the video card issue, I've always wanted to see a PC built as wall art - all the components just hanging there on the wall without a case. Anyone ever seen anything like that?


The problem with this one is it doesn't even have a PCI slot, its all onboard i815 video, which is even worse. Also, consider the fact that IF the video goes out, then your SOL, you need a new mobo...ooops, good luck getting one to fit this thing. I have seen this happen, mobo is fine, but video is dead. No PCI or AGP, now your screwed.

Even with the ones with PCI, your REALLY limited, and the selection is getting narrower every day.


www.virtual-hideout.net had a picture of a wall-pc.


LK

[ribitch]

sure you can get a portable mp3 player with a large harddrive in it, but linux users like controlling their systems, therefore this would be almost perfect for a portable linux car mp3 player. when its not in their car, its connected to their home stereo.

sure, amny large businesses go with brand name systems, but many others go with systems from their local computer store, which may carry these. Because your company doesnt run non name brand systems doesnt mean all companies are that way. Many smaller companies have a smaller budget, therefore a dell or gateway may not be an option.

Integrated systems are always criticized for 1 piece failing, the whole system is shot. Well, if your mobo with integrated sound has a failure in sound system, you probably would not want to keep that board in there. There is a high chance of other components on teh motherboard failing. a dead component in a system will in most cases affect the entire system. Thats what a warranty is for.

You really dont seem to get the logic behind a compact system like this. You then try to talk it up as if you are the source of all information. simply put, this thing has some sort of a market. It may not be appealing to you, but people will be like "thats cool, i want one to use for this.." and it will sell. It will sell because of its size, and the fact that you dont need additional hardware. Sure people will be turned off from it not having AGP or PCI, but the vendor probably has considered that.

Do 99% of the laptops have an upgradable AGP slot? Or PCI slot? Nope. Those things add size and weight to a system. Most wont ever be used by the consumer, and just add to the cost. Therefore they are not used. They are not out to please just 1% of their potential owners.

[LegendKiller]

Even small businesses will want a larger company to handle their systems. I hardly know a company which will say "ohh, this computer shop who sells 5 computers a year looks good". Furthermore, they want QUALITY and features, not just compactness. I do not see a valid business area for this, and I have considered everything.

Part of my JOB is to validate the business aspect of IT expendatures inside of my company. If somebody wants something, I look at it and determine whether it would be a good move or not. Usually this is done on the enterprise level, but I also help to look at the validation of other IT systems.


I agree with you though, an MP3 player would be a definite use for this, but then again, that market is STILL VERY SMALL!

Going to the "one part may fail so replace the whole thing". Thats pretty interesting argument, but alas, one without merit. The whole point of buying a computer is to ensure it will last. A warrenty is an agreement that IF it fails it will be replaced, its a contingency, not a value-added feature.

Take for example an auto warrenty. It says that IF something fails they will replace it. You get this warrenty because of contingencies of ONE part, not the whole. You dont get it to think "When the engine fails I will get the vehicle replaced". This is one major downfall of the IT industry. In the attempt to micronize parts they are also making them more apt to fail and totally be replaced. If you combine all of the complexities of parts into an integrated system, and charge only 10% profit, then if 1 in 10 of your systems fail due to the high-integratedness (and more likely it will all fail due to your forethought and NOT contingency), then your profits are screwed.


Also, with business this is an issue. A business will have a spare video card, but they wont have a totally spare system many times if the WHOLE thing goes out. Again, your arguments are invalid.


From a business standpoint, this computer is VERY dangerous due to its inflexibility, lack of redundancy, lack of features, and general market penetration and reliability information. It would be a bad business decision to adopt this.


From an MP3 perspective it would be an awesome investment.


From a home-user "average joe/jane" it would be a horrible investment for the same reasons as the business.

For a performance user, horrible investment.


So what does that give you? A VERY narrow market, which is what the whole problem with the IT boom was. You had stupid products marketed to stupid people with stupid managers spending money at rediculous rates to TRY and make ANYTHING work without researching possibilities.

Actually, laptops are getting VERY upgradable. All of the Sagar/Alienware lines have AGP/CPU slot/sockets. Same with Dells, and some newer microns. Its only a matter of time, people want MORE features, not less.


LK



Originally posted by ribitch
sure you can get a portable mp3 player with a large harddrive in it, but linux users like controlling their systems, therefore this would be almost perfect for a portable linux car mp3 player. when its not in their car, its connected to their home stereo.

sure, amny large businesses go with brand name systems, but many others go with systems from their local computer store, which may carry these. Because your company doesnt run non name brand systems doesnt mean all companies are that way. Many smaller companies have a smaller budget, therefore a dell or gateway may not be an option.

Integrated systems are always criticized for 1 piece failing, the whole system is shot. Well, if your mobo with integrated sound has a failure in sound system, you probably would not want to keep that board in there. There is a high chance of other components on teh motherboard failing. a dead component in a system will in most cases affect the entire system. Thats what a warranty is for.

You really dont seem to get the logic behind a compact system like this. You then try to talk it up as if you are the source of all information. simply put, this thing has some sort of a market. It may not be appealing to you, but people will be like "thats cool, i want one to use for this.." and it will sell. It will sell because of its size, and the fact that you dont need additional hardware. Sure people will be turned off from it not having AGP or PCI, but the vendor probably has considered that.

Do 99% of the laptops have an upgradable AGP slot? Or PCI slot? Nope. Those things add size and weight to a system. Most wont ever be used by the consumer, and just add to the cost. Therefore they are not used. They are not out to please just 1% of their potential owners.

[sbp]

{makes popcorn}

[LegendKiller]

[ribitch]

SBP, make me some too :D



Originally posted by LegendKiller
Even small businesses will want a larger company to handle their systems. I hardly know a company which will say "ohh, this computer shop who sells 5 computers a year looks good". Furthermore, they want QUALITY and features, not just compactness. I do not see a valid business area for this, and I have considered everything.
I never said they didnt. I have seen many compaines buy their systems from a local vendor. Why? Because the company is right down the street. Warranty work can be done on the day the part fails, and they have decent prices. I never said that dell or gateway isnt an option. But they are not the only vendors a company will go with.



Part of my JOB is to validate the business aspect of IT expendatures inside of my company. If somebody wants something, I look at it and determine whether it would be a good move or not. Usually this is done on the enterprise level, but I also help to look at the validation of other IT systems.

..and my masters, and my gf's father is a CEO, blah blah blah. totally irrelevant. Who cares what your JOB is.


I agree with you though, an MP3 player would be a definite use for this, but then again, that market is STILL VERY SMALL!

I never said it was big. Its still a market


Going to the "one part may fail so replace the whole thing". Thats pretty interesting argument, but alas, one without merit. The whole point of buying a computer is to ensure it will last. A warrenty is an agreement that IF it fails it will be replaced, its a contingency, not a value-added feature.


if you have ever dealt with electronic design, you would know that if 1 component fails, the rest of teh circuit can be affected in some way. It may not cause any disturbances in the circuit, but it can also cause a higher/lower amount of current to flow, or even shutdown part of the circuit. To protect other system components, you would want to replace the motherboard. Do watch you want, but I would rather replace 1 part than an entire system.


Take for example an auto warrenty. It says that IF something fails they will replace it. You get this warrenty because of contingencies of ONE part, not the whole. You dont get it to think "When the engine fails I will get the vehicle replaced". This is one major downfall of the IT industry. In the attempt to micronize parts they are also making them more apt to fail and totally be replaced. If you combine all of the complexities of parts into an integrated system, and charge only 10% profit, then if 1 in 10 of your systems fail due to the high-integratedness (and more likely it will all fail due to your forethought and NOT contingency), then your profits are screwed.
In many cars today, if the engine fails, they dont spend the time and resources diagnosing the problem, pulling the engine, unassembling, repaining, reassembling, and dropping it back in the car. Its too costly. Many of the 100,000 mile engines on the market are like this. The old engine can later be recycled, rebuilt, or whatever. If the integrated sound on the motherboard fails, you get a new mobo. If everything else is on the mobo, you almost get a new system. Look at the PDA market. If your screen cracks, you send it in to get serviced, they send you a refurbished unit instead of working on your unit.



Also, with business this is an issue. A business will have a spare video card, but they wont have a totally spare system many times if the WHOLE thing goes out. Again, your arguments are invalid.
If a company has 500 systems with the same specs, they will more than likely have some spare parts for instances like this. Most businesses do not buy several machines and have no two the same. If the machine was bought from a local vendor, the vendor may or maynot have extra parts on hand.


From a business standpoint, this computer is VERY dangerous due to its inflexibility, lack of redundancy, lack of features, and general market penetration and reliability information. It would be a bad business decision to adopt this.
I never said it was a wise investment for a business. A small business with limited space may consider it though, since it can possibly help them out.



From an MP3 perspective it would be an awesome investment.


no arguement


From a home-user "average joe/jane" it would be a horrible investment for the same reasons as the business.
most home users will bring the system to the original seller if a problem starts, if not they will call them. A few will actually troubleshoot, but that is getting into a poweruser, and they arent the "average koe/jane". Home users will buy a system they can afford and meets their needs. Packard bell lasted as long as they did due to this market. Same with emachines. They were both highly integrated, affordable, and seemed a like a good buy at the time. It may not be the best buy for them, but it can and possible will sell to them.



For a performance user, horrible investment.
a performance user will only buy a system like this becase they think its cool, they have a use for it, or will avoid it and get something with a higher spec than a PIII


So what does that give you? A VERY narrow market, which is what the whole problem with the IT boom was. You had stupid products marketed to stupid people with stupid managers spending money at rediculous rates to TRY and make ANYTHING work without researching possibilities.

hmm, budget strapped home users, people looking to make their own mp3 player, people with special needs(they want a custom router or small webserver), and some small business's.


Actually, laptops are getting VERY upgradable. All of the Sagar/Alienware lines have AGP/CPU slot/sockets. Same with Dells, and some newer microns. Its only a matter of time, people want MORE features, not less.


LK


yes, laptops are starting to become upgradable, but with this advent comes shorter batterylife, thicker systems, heavier systems. Sure, some users buy a laptop and it sits on a desk and it never moves. But the majority of laptop users buy a system to be portable between the home and office, or home and class. Ultrathin notebooks have a market because they offer an easier to transport size and weight. The alienware laptop that supgradable is very heavy, very large in size, and has a really short battery life. 2 batteries for 5 hours use (correct me if i'm wrong)

If most business's wanted a heavy system that can be upgraded, they will buy a desktop. If they want something thats easy for their staff to move around in a briefcase, they get a laptop.

Upgradable laptops are still new to the market. They use desktop CPU's which have been known to change packaging (socket 7, socket 370, slot a, slot 1, socket a, etc) and are being used in these "upgradable" laptops. With new chips by amd and intel coming out in the near future, these are far from a wise investment

[DoPeY5007]

Originally posted by ribitch
SBP, make me some too :D




and me!!!...


Originally posted by ribitch

a performance user will only buy a system like this becase they think its cool, they have a use for it, or will avoid it and get something with a higher spec than a PIII





Like I said, I would spend the money on something like this because it is "cool" ;)

[ribitch]

Originally posted by DoPeY5007



and me!!!...




Like I said, I would spend the money on something like this because it is "cool" ;)

Thanks for backing me up on that one. I am in the same boat as you are. Its a cool idea and would be fun to play with.

[LegendKiller]

Who there bud, no need to get hostile, I just merely point out my experiences when justifying expenses, I in no way mean to insult you or anything. Good natured discussions are good for the mind, many points you give me are very good ones that I can add in my own mind as justifications for different things. I always like getting other opinions and objective criticism for this very reason, it sharpens the mind.

I totally agree with you that you will want to replace the whole thing if 1 part goes down, but that is not always an option. I have seen onboard vid go out and the mobo work for a long while, happened to me on an older 810 chipset with intel integrated...sucker still works with a PCI card instead of onboard. Contingency plans are nice though, if this does happen, then we can do that. However, with this thats not really an option. It just limits it in my mind.

Yeah, I totally agree that in some cases it would be good, but again, it comes down to target market, I just dont see it being big enough to say "this is for XX market and we will put it there". You really need to appeal to a broad market and THEN go narrow with other products.

Do I see myself buying this? Not unless I use it for what you said, an MP3 device. Perhaps even a hometheater PC which could play divx. But again, thats a pretty small use area.

Would I buy it for my mom? Probably not, but then again, she always likes more space.

Would I buy it to LAN? Heck no, but IF they put an AGP slot there I surely would. I have my laptop, P3 GF4go which is nice, but I cannot just slap a P4 into it, which some of these new flexATX's can do.

I would love to see what they do with this in the future. This market is just beginning, they just need to let the users determine it. Its kinda like intel and Rambus. intel said "You will use this memory", however, the market determined what IT will use, not intel.


As far as laptops being upgradable. The Sagar/Alienware's are freaking massive, my 8100 is even pretty big and heavy. However, the Latitude's are small and do have the socket/slot CPU/GPU (but the video memory is onboard so your limited to what GPU will work with the mobo's memory...the GF2/4 go's are swappable but I am not sure about the Radeon). I can go from a 1->1.4 with the P3, which is cool.

But as you said, its just beginning and still has many constraints with it (speed, size, and heat!). As far as battery life, I wasn't just making ref to the Sagar, which does suck life like a vampire

[DoPeY5007]

I showed my girlfriend the shuttle PIII system, she loves it and said it is cute, she is now building a shuttle system together because it can do what she need ( she does not need AGP ) and it is cute, there is a market for this kinda PC, not a big market, but big enough to keep making the systems....

[LegendKiller]

LOL, targeting the women ;). That is definitely a market. My GF hates my Antec full tower since its "big and ugly and is way to loud". She might like the Shuttle for a system but she just has her laptop.


LK

[mcs328]

As an Internet appliance I'd get it. Surf the net, write up documents, play some music and do what I'm guessing a home user would use it for. I would hope with all the firewire and usb connections you could hook up an external cd burner to it and burn cd's. Wouldn't use it for gaming defintely unless it's for like some java based game. There's always Solitaire :P

[DoPeY5007]

Originally posted by LegendKiller
LOL, targeting the women ;). That is definitely a market. My GF hates my Antec full tower since its "big and ugly and is way to loud". yeah, I love my full Antec case, and I dont mind the noise, and it just isn't "cute" anough for the females, but is is "manly" enough :D

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by mcs328
As an Internet appliance I'd get it. Surf the net, write up documents, play some music and do what I'm guessing a home user would use it for. I would hope with all the firewire and usb connections you could hook up an external cd burner to it and burn cd's. Wouldn't use it for gaming defintely unless it's for like some java based game. There's always Solitaire :P


Ahhh, JAVA based. Now you do have a good use for it. It could be my MegaMek terminal sourceforge.megamek.net . Online battletech through java. Interestingly enough, I end up playing that more than I play any of my new games (Jedi outcast, Neverwinter, or WC3).


LK

[Jeffbx]

Originally posted by LegendKiller
LOL, targeting the women ;).
LK

The Volkswagen Beetle of PCs???