Christianity

[latingirl]

Originally posted by faither


Not to go off on a tangent here but in what context do you mean that in order to truly follow Christianity, you'll be pretty "conservative?"

Aye Dios Mio!!!

If a person "truly" lives and believes as God has commanded in His Word, you will be more conservative. Conservative in terms of sexuality, morals, values in general, at least compared to the general population in the U.S.

I didn't say anything about that making me or anyone else better than another person. I've been given too much grace to think that about myself. And God is NOT a respector of persons, but He does want us to be obedient to His Word and as a Christian with a relationship with God I'm sure that you want to be. Which would probably make you a little more "conservative" than many folk.

[Nanotech9]

well put latingirl...

and well said chosen. I to have been "straying away" i guess... Seems that the sunday motorcycle rides have taken precedence to going to church... I know its not right, but i still do it, and i dont know why. :(

[latingirl]

Originally posted by chosenfool

on my part, im the seed that fell on thorny bushes - the cares of this world hve suffocated my growth. its sad on my part, but yeah, though i know of it, ive come to accept that i am FAR from living a Christian way of life.

That's what I'm talking about. Grace...and A LOT of mercy.

Please, can I be real here?? I went from a girl who had one of those homie/lover/friends and we use to get our freak on all the time!!! Now, because I love God so much and I believe He is always with me, I just couldn't do that to Him. Not that I haven't come close, cause this same homie/lover/friend got out of prison last year and it was one of the most difficult times in my Christian walk. Men are definately my weakness, especially tall, fine, chocolate, handsome...mmmm, mmm, mm....oh, where was I. I also met this fiiiiinne guy a year after I became a christian. Another temptation. So I know all about feeling like I'm not walking the walk.

But 1 John 1:9 says "if you confess your sins, God is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleans us from all unrighteousness. God is reaching out to you with open arms saying...you just don't know. I long for my son, uh...Chosenfool, to talk to Me and just allow himself to be in My presence and I will heal him and help him conquer whatever he's going through that keeps him from Me.

You just gotta make the choice again just like you did when you were first saved. Cause you know what life is like without Him, wouldn't you rather be with Him and Him with you?

LG

[OC]

Please allow me to free-will for a minute here -

I'm of a more simple belief - that "Chrisitanity" simply means "a belief in Christ". To me, (this is my own point of view and I intend no criticism) the Bible is so open to interpretation - and thus, so is God's word - that it's more of a guidebook than anything else.

My philosophy is simple - do the right thing, cause no harm to others, and be a good person.

All of this is of course open to still more interpretation. This is ultimately what religious beliefs should be - up to the individual.

"Make not thyself the judge of any man." - I admit I have some trouble with this one. I will NOT stand by and watch a crime be committed if I have a choice, religious beliefs be damned. But also, if a man no longer wants to be a part of a childs life when he discovers he's not the father... Where to draw the line? Still more interpretation. And who shall judge me?

I keep quiet on a lot of topics because my convictions are not "conservative" - rather the opposite. I tend to think of my convictions as being "true" rather than anything else. But then if I didn't think they were "true" then I couldn't very well call them "convictions" then could I?

Anyway... all of this because of the word "conservative". :)

-OC

[YanksFanRy]

I'm not sure I should add this but...

I'm a Conservative Jew, does that help?

(meaning the sect of Judaism, not my political views)

[brainsmile]

Originally posted by overclocked
I'm of a more simple belief - that "Chrisitanity" simply means "a belief in Christ".

-OC

Unfortunately that's not enough biblically speaking. I am not judging but by God's standards we all fall short. Believe isn't enough. Satan believes Christ exists so do the demons ... but they won't be going to heaven. :D

[latingirl]

Originally posted by overclocked
Anyway... all of this because of the word "conservative". :)

-OC

Well, actually, you should see "why get married"...

I posted to a new topic cause that thread was getting long and confusing, at least to me.

That's your perogative. That's what you believe and that's fine and you should speak up whether your views are conservative or not conservative. JUST GET READY TO GET BLASTED ON!!!!! :johnwoo2: kahkowww!!

Not for real...

[latingirl]

Originally posted by YanksFanRy
I'm not sure I should add this but...

I'm a Conservative Jew, does that help?

(meaning the sect of Judaism, not my political views)

I don't know what you mean. Are you saying because you are a different religion and conservative?

Well, that's hard to answer for me because I believe we worship the same God. I worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus was a descendant of David. Our religions are the same except I'm not waiting for a messiah, my messiah has already come (Jesus) and I am under the new covenant of grace by faith. Jews believe to be under the old covenant (of justification by works, hence the rituals, the only eating of kosher foods, etc.

[nickel]

i vote there should be a separation of church and gotapex :P

[latingirl]

Originally posted by brainsmile


Unfortunately that's not enough biblically speaking. I am not judging but by God's standards we all fall short. Believe isn't enough. Satan believes Christ exists. That's all I'll say.

Brain-I totally agree with what you are saying and I totally feel you. But if they ain't christians, they certainly won't understand that:


Originally posted by brainsmile
Satan believes Christ exists.

You have to explain yourself, homie.

Imagine yourself as a non-believer and try to explain this to yourself, first. That's what I try to do. I don't have to think that far back 'cause I haven't been a christian all my life.

[hapoo]

Originally posted by overclocked

My philosophy is simple - do the right thing, cause no harm to others, and be a good person.


I think thats the most important thing. Not everyone will follow the religion you do. I've met some pretty bad muslims in my day and i've met some awesome atheists, and i'd prefer to spend time with the atheist over the muslim any day. I feel very lucky to me muslim just as latingirl probably feels about christianity, but i would never discriminate against anyone based on religion, only on character.

My 2 cents

[latingirl]

Originally posted by nickelback
i vote there should be a separation of church and gotapex :P

Well, I'm a justice in the Supreme Court of GotApex and I say that your request is "riduculuss" uh, "ridiculeouse".

[latingirl]

Originally posted by hapoo

My 2 cents

Can I get a discount?????


(okay, you know I'm JUST KIDDING!!!)

[nickel]

Well, I'm a justice in the Supreme Court of GotApex and I say that your request is "riduculuss" uh, "ridiculeouse".

not in the united states of america sister :P

[latingirl]

oh

[latingirl]

Originally posted by DarkFury
Ladies... Um... nevermind...






/me pulls up a chair ala "Undercover Brotha" to watch this action. :hihi:

Say it, Darkman, don't be "skerred"...

[SonyGuy]

I think there are a lot of good views and beliefs being said in this thread. Some I don't agree on, but hey, everyone has their own belief.


My philosophy is simple - do the right thing, cause no harm to others, and be a good person.

That's actually a good philosophy, although it can suit itself to many religions and walks of life.

I believe in God, I believe Christ died for my sins, but I don't confess to be a devout Christian because I'm not walking the path I should just as Nanotech and Chosenfool have basically said. I'm what many Christians refer to as a "backslider"...

[Markel]

Originally posted by nickelback
i vote there should be a separation of church and gotapex :P
Well, considering that Apex invited us all to his church (for a pancake breakfast) on Easter, I think you vote is overruled. ;)

[Showtime]

I dont mean any disrepect. Let me play devils advocate.

I doubt people would be so open in these forums to hear someone telling them they need God and that God needs them to obey him if
it didnt come from a female that us guys assume is "hot."

Theres a few spouting off against religion and I can appreciate Lg expressing her views, but lets be for real.

Many of us was raised around the church and whatnot.
I don't think I need to be reminded but maybe i do. I also can be judgemental.

I am tired of these fake Christians.
Some are Christian til the right(wrong) guy or girl comes along and "corrupts" them. Some are very judgemental of fallen people til they also fall.
Some want to make Christianity the cool thing.

From what I've read Christ wasn't cool. He worked hard at construction(carpenter), which made him like one of the guys(strong/rugged).
The exact opposite of these pretty boys/brats I see at church and on TBN(dont get me started).
He was raised with carpenters and later took fishermen as his crew. Those were the same cursing, girl chasing men that do those jobs nowadays.

He was intelligent without being condescending. He listened to his parents.
Made it through his teenage years etc. before starting his ministry. He never sinned. He was sincere and true. He died for people who hated him.

If you believe or not His is an amazing journey/story.

Christianity has become soft and I want no part of it in its current condition. I am unable to be a true Christian and don't like when people try to force ideals on me that they don't follow.

Good luck in your mission Lg.
You sound sincere and your spirit can't be denied.

-jel:|

[craziepanda]

Originally posted by the jello is jigglin


From what I've read Christ wasn't cool.


what kind of cool do you mean?

cool...like He's not quite the moderm culture's view of cool...

or

cool...like He's a good dude

judging by everything you said i'm guessing it's the first definition of cool i'm referring to, but i just wanna make sure.

LG: what do you mean by that brain has to explain himself when he says satan believes in Christ? for the non-believers or those who just aren't as familiar with the Bible?

well, to explain in that context, i think brain just meant that a pure belief in the existence of Christ, His death, and His resurrection does not mean that you are a christian. for example, satan, who i wouldn't be surprised if he had a more thoroughly knowledge of the Bible than all gotapexers combined, would know that this happened as well. however, to be a christian means to accept this fact into your life, and because of what Christ did, you would confess to God that you accept this and allow Christ to be Lord over your life....to start a loving relationship with God. the pastor who frequently speaks at my church uses a term which i personally believe is a good way of representing these people are "Jesus followers," because i think that christians and Jesus followers could be two different identities. professing christians who kill abortion doctors to stop abortion might not quite be a Jesus follower, because i've never read or heard Jesus kill anyone to stop them from commiting or assisting in sins. He only taught, rebuked and forgave.

speaking of forgiveness, forgive my errors...i just drove 8 hrs through the night from SD to SF bay area...so tired...and i'm here reading forums :)

[NuTs62]

Originally posted by the jello is jigglin
I dont mean any disrepect. Let me play devils advocate.

I doubt people would be so open in these forums to hear someone telling them they need God and that God needs them to obey him if
it didnt come from a female that us guys assume is "hot."

Theres a few spouting off against religion and I can appreciate Lg expressing her views, but lets be for real.

Many of us was raised around the church and whatnot.
I don't think I need to be reminded but maybe i do. I also can be judgemental.

I am tired of these fake Christians.
Some are Christian til the right(wrong) guy or girl comes along and "corrupts" them. Some are very judgemental of fallen people til they also fall.
Some want to make Christianity the cool thing.

From what I've read Christ wasn't cool. He worked hard at construction(carpenter), which made him like one of the guys(strong/rugged).
The exact opposite of these pretty boys/brats I see at church and on TBN(dont get me started).
He was raised with carpenters and later took fishermen as his crew. Those were the same cursing, girl chasing men that do those jobs nowadays.

He was intelligent without being condescending. He listened to his parents.
Made it through his teenage years etc. before starting his ministry. He never sinned. He was sincere and true. He died for people who hated him.

If you believe or not His is an amazing journey/story.

Christianity has become soft and I want no part of it in its current condition. I am unable to be a true Christian and don't like when people try to force ideals on me that they don't follow.

Good luck in your mission Lg.
You sound sincere and your spirit can't be denied.

-jel:|

please excuse me if any part of what i say is incoherent. Its around 3:40am as I'm typing this so bare with me.

I agree whole-heartedly with what you've said, with exception of the first comment.

I wasn't raised as a Christian. I actually started learning in my latter years of High School. Its been about 2 years 7 months and 1 day since I've accepted Christ. And about what you've said about "fake Christians", I agree with you there. Thats what made me disappointed, and made me not want to be a part of it.

Now I must admit, since I've become Christian, I've tried my best to attend church, but thats not what its about. The church is within a person. You don't need to attend church to be Christian. I admit that I still swear on occasion, and I sin quite a number of times. We're human, none of us are perfect. And we must acknowledge that. It can be as "cool" as however people want it portrayed, I don't care, as long as the underlying message is still kept in tact.

I don't go around imposing my beliefs on people. Thats what I don't like, and I'm sure many others don't. But if someone comes up to me and asks me about it, I feel its perhaps my calling, to do the best I can and answer that call. I don't know much about it, and I can't convert anyone, but its up to the person to decide. Thats how I came about becoming Christian. I was given the opportunity to learn, without the pressure of acceptance. Given the choice to choose it or not, thats what made my decision special, and thats what anyone and everyone who wants to learn, should be given the choice. Not having Christianity stuffed down their throat. There are, in my words, "bad apples" in every group of people. You can't judge 'em all by the actions of a few.

I don't like how it is now, if it was my choice, i'd get rid of whatever system that may be in place for churches. That by no means mean that I don't believe, because again, the church isn't a building, its within us. If you're sick of it, I'd say don't go to church. But deep down, if you believe in it, don't let some bad apples ruin it for you.

[topane]

Originally posted by overclocked
PMy philosophy is simple - do the right thing, cause no harm to others, and be a good person. :stupid:

Nothing wrong with that, amigo.

[brainsmile]

Originally posted by overclocked
My philosophy is simple - do the right thing, cause no harm to others, and be a good person.

I believe that's more humanism in doctrine

[Cantacuzene]

I try to be the best person I can be, but there are some parts of Christian dogma I think are ridiculous. I don't think it matters to God one bit if people drink alcohol. This was most likely a human morallity added into the Bible by men to help control people's wild ways in the old days.

In reality why should God up in Heaven give a crap if some kid on Earth has a drink on a Saturday night? It all adds to the "holier than thou" attitude most hardcore Christians carry with them that makes even people who are religious, but not extremists, hate having them around.

The other thing I find funny is that the people who are most intolerant and most hardcore are people who are recent converts from a "bad" lifestyle previously. I've been a believing Catholic my whole life but I don't sit there and preach to my agnostic or athiest friends the way some of these 'two week christians' do with their WWJD bracelets. That stuff angers me, because these people treat religion like a fad.

[latingirl]

Wow, so much to address...here goes...

nuTs: Welcome to the "family"!! That is so BEAUTIFUL!! Don't be discouraged about what others do cause you know what, we ARE all human. Just like Donnie McClurkin says in his song "We fall down": "a Saint (another word for believer) is just a sinner who fell down, and got up". You just have to always think back to what made you make the decision for Christ in the first place. The ONLY thing that keeps Christian (this is MY opinion and experience) from "backsliding" is just constantly reminding ourselves that God truly does love us, He IS truly UP THERE (I know when I'm overwhelmed with the cares of this world, I begin to doubt that) and He is truly ALWAYS with me. For me the fact that God is my Heavenly Father just blows my mind. I'm His baby girl and a Daddy isn't going to let anything happen to His baby girl. My real father was a cholo, drug dealer and addict, pimp, beat my mom, etc. He would come around, call me his "little lady" and promise this and that and then never show up for months. My life with mom (because she had her own issues)and my step-father (who was once my father's best friend) was horrible and I always wondered what it was about ME that didn't make my real father say "I got a beautiful daughter and I need to change my life, for HER. So I could take care of her and be there for her". It definately affected my relationships with men, to say the least.

Now, I embrace the fact that the bible says that if we are in Christ Jesus, we have a RIGHT to be called CHILDREN of God. That He will be a mother and a father to us.

See, God is a PERSONAL God. He takes us as we are and then touches us where WE need to be touched and Hugs us where and when we need to be hugged. So my advice is to ask yourself who you need Him to be in your life, because He is the great I AM. He called Himself I AM to say that He is everything you need. Then instead of being discouraged about what other people/"christians" do or say, you can pray that they have a relationship with Him that you do.

Believe me, I have been through A LOT with church folk, my old pastor divorced his wife and then re-married several days after the divorce was final, and in my current church my choir director rudely singles me out and I think its a race thing (I recently switched choirs because of this, everyone knows she has issues so this is being addressed), etc. I KNOW what its like to be disappointed with Christians. If I didn't have the strong relationship with God that I do, if I looked at imperfect (to say the least) people instead of HIM, I wouldn't be a Christian.

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by brainsmile


I believe that's more humanism in doctrine

Perhaps you are right. Then again, every religion teaches us similar concepts. That's the overall picture. That is what makes each religion equal. I find it annoying when people come to me all "righteous" about how their religion is better than whatever I believe in.

I have to agree with Nuts on this one (wow 2 in a row! :)) Religion shouldn't be forced. It is more valuable to oneself if its accepted on their own terms.

Cantacuzene, I gotta hand it to you, you pretty much took those words out of my mouth. (well, most of the words anyway).

[latingirl]

Originally posted by craziepanda

LG: what do you mean by that brain has to explain himself when he says satan believes in Christ? for the non-believers or those who just aren't as familiar with the Bible?



I just meant that many non-believers don't believe in the devil in a literal sense AND that, in my experience, when you make a statement like that (cause I've done it several times before), a non-believer will really take it personal. I've had someone misunderstand me and then we got into this argument cause he got mad that I was implying that he was a devil or like the devil.

I wasn't criticizing at all. I totally understand where Brain was coming from. I just don't want a fight breaking out!! =)

[latingirl]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
The other thing I find funny is that the people who are most intolerant and most hardcore are people who are recent converts from a "bad" lifestyle previously. I've been a believing Catholic my whole life but I don't sit there and preach to my agnostic or athiest friends the way some of these 'two week christians' do with their WWJD bracelets. That stuff angers me, because these people treat religion like a fad.


Originally posted by Jihforce
Cantacuzene, I gotta hand it to you, you pretty much took those words out of my mouth. (well, most of the words anyway).

Um, Jih, I thought you thought "generalizations" were "weak"???

[latingirl]

Originally posted by DarkFury

I thought that was... "Skurrrred". :hihi:


Hey... watchin' girls go at it beats most stuff goin' on anyday. :hihi:

Yeh, you wish....DarkHomie.

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by latingirl

Um, Jih, I thought you thought "generalizations" were "weak"???

Yup, that is why I said I agree with most of the words he said. Not all. It is true that most intolerant Christians I have met are the most hardcore ones. But they aren't all like that. Just MOST of the ones I've met.
Then there are the ones who aren't, like my fiance's dad. He is pretty hardcore, but he's tolerant of my views and respects me for them. He realizes that he doesn't have to agree with my views, to respect them. The same goes with my bother-in-law. He's a devoted Catholic and he respects my views. He educates me in the ways of Christianity when I ask him to, but doesn't condemn me for not following God. I could go on and on.

[hapoo]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
I try to be the best person I can be, but there are some parts of Christian dogma I think are ridiculous. I don't think it matters to God one bit if people drink alcohol. This was most likely a human morallity added into the Bible by men to help control people's wild ways in the old days.

In reality why should God up in Heaven give a crap if some kid on Earth has a drink on a Saturday night? It all adds to the "holier than thou" attitude most hardcore Christians carry with them that makes even people who are religious, but not extremists, hate having them around.



Here's my view on the issue, since I know your dying to hear it :P

First of all, if you believe in a religion, you have to believe in ALL of it, if you don't, then don't call yourself Christian or Jewish or Muslim etc.
Secondly, it’s my opinion that religion was sent down for the better of man. If it says in my book that I’m not supposed to do something, there must be a reason for it whether or not I agree with it or not. Its one thing for me to say that I don't want to follow it, but it’s completely another thing for me to deny it. It’s my belief that god wants the best for people, he's not sending down rules just for his own amusement.
But, like I always say, these are just MY views, not meant to insult or offend.

[topane]

Originally posted by latingirl
If a person "truly" lives and believes as God has commanded in His Word, you will be more conservative. Conservative in terms of sexuality, morals, values in general, at least compared to the general population in the U.S. Conservative is also another word for "traditional" -- you don't have to believe in God to think and act like people did in the past.
Ironically, as I've gotten older I've become more conservative, but less inclined to believe in a God.

Originally posted by hapoo
First of all, if you believe in a religion, you have to believe in ALL of it, if you don't, then don't call yourself Christian or Jewish or Muslim etc.Well said, but there are other religions (or sects) which fit under the umbrella of the broader ones. Take Christianity, for example. You have major denominations like Catholics, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Baptists, etc. along with a bunch of smaller groups. They all have different interpretations of the Bible and which parts of it they emphasize more. If you're a good JW, you're probably not going to be a good Catholic because you view the Bible differently, although you would both call yourselves Christians.

[hapoo]

There are always going to be different interpretations, and thats perfectly fine. BUT saying I believe in the bible but i disagree with half the commandments or something doesn't work. Of coarse my point of view is pretty hard to argue with christianity since there are so many versions of the bible but with islam its pretty straight forward since there is only one untouched version of the koran.

[Cantacuzene]

Don't mistake what I said. I'm not a commandment breaker, those are pretty universal. Its the other things that have developed over time that I don't agree with and most of what I don't agree with are the forced lifestyle changes religions try to push on people. Drinking alcohol, having sex, downloading mp3s watching violent movies and reading violent books dont change the beliefs I hold on religion. If I want to have a drink or hook up with a girl does that suddenly mean I no longer accept Jesus as Christ or that I blaspheme against God?

Its the "all or nothing" mentality that breeds intolerance and turns the average man away from religion. True story, a person who was a Christian for less than year once told me I was going to burn in hell for being a Catholic. I don't know where this person gets off saying anything like that to anyone, but its the "all or nothing" dogma he subscribed to that led him to turn a positive thing like religion into a focus for hate and bigotry.

[hapoo]

wow, ok sorry if it came off like that Cantacuzene, i was just giving an example, not talking about you.

[attgig]

geeez, i promised myself that I would never get into another religious discussion on G|A again but....sigh.



Originally posted by hapoo


I think thats the most important thing. Not everyone will follow the religion you do. I've met some pretty bad muslims in my day and i've met some awesome atheists, and i'd prefer to spend time with the atheist over the muslim any day. I feel very lucky to me muslim just as latingirl probably feels about christianity, but i would never discriminate against anyone based on religion, only on character.

My 2 cents


i'm the same way....
but you know what....

for me, Christ doesn't say only chill with the people who you like and can deal with......


a pastor once said that the best church would have the most annoying, disgusting, weird, and messed up people at church - simply cause those are the people that Jesus reached out to.

[Tuvi]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
Don't mistake what I said. I'm not a commandment breaker, those are pretty universal. Its the other things that have developed over time that I don't agree with and most of what I don't agree with are the forced lifestyle changes religions try to push on people. Drinking alcohol, having sex, downloading mp3s watching violent movies and reading violent books dont change the beliefs I hold on religion. If I want to have a drink or hook up with a girl does that suddenly mean I no longer accept Jesus as Christ or that I blaspheme against God?

whoa, you just said that and you're a Catholic?? do you go to confession? or do you just keep on sinning cuz you believe religion shouldn't change your lifestyle? what exactly are your "beliefs on religion" that don't change as a result of what you do? ok, i realize that i am probably sounding judgmental, but religion and your personal relationship with Jesus is not something "on the side" of life. it IS life. you can't just go to church on sundays and then do what you want the rest of the week (although many people do). that is not what jesus called us to do. we believe in him and we do his will. it says in the bible that drunkards and fornicators and a bunch of other sinning people will not inherit the kingdom of God. you think some "man" just added that in to control the people at that time? that's just absurd. i dont believe drinking is wrong, but drinking a lot just to get drunk is, esp when you do it a lot. we are commanded to follow jesus' law and live a holy life because we love him. it isn't forced lifestyle. you change your lifestyle because you LOVE him. you are filled with so much grace that you just want to do his will and nothing else. sinning makes us drift away from God. according to Catholic teaching, when you commit a mortal sin (such as pre-marital sex), you are no longer in a state of grace, and must confess your sin and really try hard not to do it again. dude, this is serious stuff. IMHO, you need to reevaluate your relationship with Jesus, how seriously you take your religion, and start reading the bible. it's inerrant, btw.

one other thing. accepting jesus means also accepting his teachings. if you are living a life of sin, you are not playing by his rules. i really don't mean to force anything on you, but i guess i sound like i'm doing just that. i just wanted to make sure you are aware of a few basic Catholic principles and hopefully think about them. the main point is, is that if you love Jesus, you will love to follow his commandments. this is done out of your own personal desire, and should never be forced.

[attgig]

Originally posted by the jello is jigglin
I dont mean any disrepect. Let me play devils advocate.

I doubt people would be so open in these forums to hear someone telling them they need God and that God needs them to obey him if
it didnt come from a female that us guys assume is "hot."

Theres a few spouting off against religion and I can appreciate Lg expressing her views, but lets be for real.

Many of us was raised around the church and whatnot.
I don't think I need to be reminded but maybe i do. I also can be judgemental.

I am tired of these fake Christians.
Some are Christian til the right(wrong) guy or girl comes along and "corrupts" them. Some are very judgemental of fallen people til they also fall.
Some want to make Christianity the cool thing.

From what I've read Christ wasn't cool. He worked hard at construction(carpenter), which made him like one of the guys(strong/rugged).
The exact opposite of these pretty boys/brats I see at church and on TBN(dont get me started).
He was raised with carpenters and later took fishermen as his crew. Those were the same cursing, girl chasing men that do those jobs nowadays.

He was intelligent without being condescending. He listened to his parents.
Made it through his teenage years etc. before starting his ministry. He never sinned. He was sincere and true. He died for people who hated him.

If you believe or not His is an amazing journey/story.

Christianity has become soft and I want no part of it in its current condition. I am unable to be a true Christian and don't like when people try to force ideals on me that they don't follow.

Good luck in your mission Lg.
You sound sincere and your spirit can't be denied.

-jel:|

Christianity has become soft and you want no part of it in its current condition.

my question is....
what would convince you that Christianity is not soft. what would make you want to be a part of it?

[attgig]

Originally posted by NuTs62


please excuse me if any part of what i say is incoherent. Its around 3:40am as I'm typing this so bare with me.

I agree whole-heartedly with what you've said, with exception of the first comment.

I wasn't raised as a Christian. I actually started learning in my latter years of High School. Its been about 2 years 7 months and 1 day since I've accepted Christ. And about what you've said about "fake Christians", I agree with you there. Thats what made me disappointed, and made me not want to be a part of it.

Now I must admit, since I've become Christian, I've tried my best to attend church, but thats not what its about. The church is within a person. You don't need to attend church to be Christian. I admit that I still swear on occasion, and I sin quite a number of times. We're human, none of us are perfect. And we must acknowledge that. It can be as "cool" as however people want it portrayed, I don't care, as long as the underlying message is still kept in tact.

I don't go around imposing my beliefs on people. Thats what I don't like, and I'm sure many others don't. But if someone comes up to me and asks me about it, I feel its perhaps my calling, to do the best I can and answer that call. I don't know much about it, and I can't convert anyone, but its up to the person to decide. Thats how I came about becoming Christian. I was given the opportunity to learn, without the pressure of acceptance. Given the choice to choose it or not, thats what made my decision special, and thats what anyone and everyone who wants to learn, should be given the choice. Not having Christianity stuffed down their throat. There are, in my words, "bad apples" in every group of people. You can't judge 'em all by the actions of a few.

I don't like how it is now, if it was my choice, i'd get rid of whatever system that may be in place for churches. That by no means mean that I don't believe, because again, the church isn't a building, its within us. If you're sick of it, I'd say don't go to church. But deep down, if you believe in it, don't let some bad apples ruin it for you.

ok, so how do you reconcile what you just said with God telling us in the bible, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, (4) baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" if Christians just stand around and say nothing, and have our happy little sunday services, how can we make good on God's command?


to continue with this vs. Jello's post....
what is it that the world wants?
a "soft" church that just sits around, not getting into people's ways?
or a hard core church that'll actually be visible and do stuff???

imo, ultimately, it goes to Jesus' example. did he make people feel nice, warm, and fuzzy? or did he make people emotional, angry, passionate, etc.?

[latingirl]

Originally posted by attgig
geeez, i promised myself that I would never get into another religious discussion on G|A again but....sigh.

You know you just can't resist.:P

[attgig]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
I try to be the best person I can be, but there are some parts of Christian dogma I think are ridiculous. I don't think it matters to God one bit if people drink alcohol. This was most likely a human morallity added into the Bible by men to help control people's wild ways in the old days.

In reality why should God up in Heaven give a crap if some kid on Earth has a drink on a Saturday night? It all adds to the "holier than thou" attitude most hardcore Christians carry with them that makes even people who are religious, but not extremists, hate having them around.

The other thing I find funny is that the people who are most intolerant and most hardcore are people who are recent converts from a "bad" lifestyle previously. I've been a believing Catholic my whole life but I don't sit there and preach to my agnostic or athiest friends the way some of these 'two week christians' do with their WWJD bracelets. That stuff angers me, because these people treat religion like a fad.

christian dogma = ridiculous...
people's pre-conceived ideas about Christianity = ridiculous.

does God care if you're drinking?
yeah.
why?

i quote the Supertones on this one:


Every time I shed a tear it matters, it matters,
Every time I'm cold with fear it matters, it matters
When I got a broken heart it matters, it matters
Every time I fall apart it matters, it matters
When I think I'm all alone
On the road or when at home
Every time I have to sneeze
Every single breath I breathe
When I'm in a dentist's chair it matters, it matters
Anywhere and every where it matters, it matters

He cares for you like no one else


because like Latingirl said, God is a personal God.

also, things like drinking, imo is a personal conviction. like somebody said i think something about truth vs. personal conviction.
ya know...so....like some people think that no drinking is truth so, it's ok to push truth...:shrug:



and the other thing that you said...
new christian, going all crazy and such....
what if a christian that's been a christian for like 10 years is still doing that?
how do you know that the person who's "intolerant" is/isn't a newborn christian?
maybe the intolerance more because of the type of people they are, cause I've met quite a few "newborn" christians who drink even weeks after they're saved.... it's not an issue. -


eh, etc.etc.etc.
i'm getting tired of writing this....

[attgig]

and about christ, christianity, christians:

i love this:


A servant of God must stand so very much alone that he never realizes he is alone. In the early stages of the Christian life, disappointments will come—people who used to be lights will flicker out, and those who used to stand with us will turn away. We have to get so used to it that we will not even realize we are standing alone. Paul said, ". . . no one stood with me, but all forsook me . . . . But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me . . ." ( 2 Timothy 4:16-17 ). We must build our faith not on fading lights but on the Light that never fails. When "important" individuals go away we are sad, until we see that they are meant to go, so that only one thing is left for us to do—to look into the face of God for ourselves.


http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/utmost/04/22/

[latingirl]

You guys are going to think I'm such a "fake" christian for saying this but...

I actually have a drink now and then...:eek:

Now I said "a" drink. I like the taste of them, I like the taste of Tequila, I like margarita's. I don't do it for any other reason than that. It's nice to relax and have a glass of wine. I don't do it in front of many people, cause it can be a "stumbling block". Or there ARE other christians that like to judge (unfortunately).

The bible says to "live soberly" not "don't drink" (oh, by the way, "cleanliness is next to godliness" isn't in there either). And in so many places it tells you to use wisdom. How am I going to do that if I'm buzzed and actin all stupid?? How am I going to rely on Christ if I drink all the time because I need a "buzz" from life. Or I have to drink to have a "good time". That's foolishness (my opinion). But a drink every now and then, and after you examine your own motives, is not bad or being unfaithful to God.

And I'm not putting down those who refuse to have any drinks. I understand that they feel that for them it means that they are committed to the way of life. Paul (the apostle, that is) said "if you heart doesn't condemn you to do or not do (he means those things that ARE NOT COMMANDED), then do as you choose" - that was TOTALLY paraphrased.

And TD Jakes says "where the bible is silent, the preacher should be silent". I totally agree with that.

[Tuvi]

who is TD Jakes?

[CluelessSi]

Originally posted by overclocked
Please allow me to free-will for a minute here -

I'm of a more simple belief - that "Chrisitanity" simply means "a belief in Christ". To me, (this is my own point of view and I intend no criticism) the Bible is so open to interpretation - and thus, so is God's word - that it's more of a guidebook than anything else.

My philosophy is simple - do the right thing, cause no harm to others, and be a good person.

All of this is of course open to still more interpretation. This is ultimately what religious beliefs should be - up to the individual.

"Make not thyself the judge of any man." - I admit I have some trouble with this one. I will NOT stand by and watch a crime be committed if I have a choice, religious beliefs be damned. But also, if a man no longer wants to be a part of a childs life when he discovers he's not the father... Where to draw the line? Still more interpretation. And who shall judge me?

I keep quiet on a lot of topics because my convictions are not "conservative" - rather the opposite. I tend to think of my convictions as being "true" rather than anything else. But then if I didn't think they were "true" then I couldn't very well call them "convictions" then could I?

Anyway... all of this because of the word "conservative". :)

-OC


wow soo much to read.. anyway reply as i go trough...
I like your simple philosophy, it is great... the Greatest commandment to love God and to love others, EVERYTHING goes back to those.... you also have to realise though.. u have ot be true to yourself, if u do love God, Chirst, everyone then u will obey and do what is asked of you... faith without deeds is dead... I tis normal, if you Love your gf/bf.. you will do stuff for him/her... a challenge that was posed before is to see Jesus as your lover, to talk to Him all the time, to have a personal realtionship... that is a challege many can't meet.




Originally posted by brainsmile


Unfortunately that's not enough biblically speaking. I am not judging but by God's standards we all fall short. Believe isn't enough. Satan believes Christ exists so do the demons ... but they won't be going to heaven. :D

haha agreed yea simple belief action is not enough... Love is what is needed! Know that you sin and Trust that your sins are forgiven =) (Basic Prayer :P)



hehe I learned a Very cool message on muslims...they are not bad or anything just that why chrisitians believe what we do and not Mohammud is because of two words.. Christmas and Easter! .... (u have to get into the meaning of them)




Originally posted by the jello is jigglin
*snip*

Christianity has become soft and I want no part of it in its current condition. I am unable to be a true Christian and don't like when people try to force ideals on me that they don't follow.

Good luck in your mission Lg.
You sound sincere and your spirit can't be denied.

-jel:|

well said... err.. or some of it :P We as christians are to live a life as a witness or Living Sacrifice, I believe that only occasional mentioning of the Word is nessearay because ppl will see Christ in you without mentioning a word. I think the planting of a seed is important, as chrisitians we expect to be persecuted, to have hard times, but as long as we trust and walk with God we will endure.. at least that is my understanding and what I live for now...




Originally posted by NuTs62

<snip>

Now I must admit, since I've become Christian, I've tried my best to attend church, but thats not what its about. The church is within a person. You don't need to attend church to be Christian. I admit that I still swear on occasion, and I sin quite a number of times. We're human, none of us are perfect. And we must acknowledge that. It can be as "cool" as however people want it portrayed, I don't care, as long as the underlying message is still kept in tact.

I don't go around imposing my beliefs on people. Thats what I don't like, and I'm sure many others don't. But if someone comes up to me and asks me about it, I feel its perhaps my calling, to do the best I can and answer that call. I don't know much about it, and I can't convert anyone, but its up to the person to decide. Thats how I came about becoming Christian. I was given the opportunity to learn, without the pressure of acceptance. Given the choice to choose it or not, thats what made my decision special, and thats what anyone and everyone who wants to learn, should be given the choice. Not having Christianity stuffed down their throat. There are, in my words, "bad apples" in every group of people. You can't judge 'em all by the actions of a few.

I don't like how it is now, if it was my choice, i'd get rid of whatever system that may be in place for churches. That by no means mean that I don't believe, because again, the church isn't a building, its within us. If you're sick of it, I'd say don't go to church. But deep down, if you believe in it, don't let some bad apples ruin it for you.

Well said =)



Originally posted by hapoo
There are always going to be different interpretations, and thats perfectly fine. BUT saying I believe in the bible but i disagree with half the commandments or something doesn't work. Of coarse my point of view is pretty hard to argue with christianity since there are so many versions of the bible but with islam its pretty straight forward since there is only one untouched version of the koran.

how can you break "half" the commandments... there is only one you need to follow which is inclusive of everything.... Matt 22:37-39 -- Great Commandment~





Originally posted by Cantacuzene
Don't mistake what I said. I'm not a commandment breaker, those are pretty universal. Its the other things that have developed over time that I don't agree with and most of what I don't agree with are the forced lifestyle changes religions try to push on people. Drinking alcohol, having sex, downloading mp3s watching violent movies and reading violent books dont change the beliefs I hold on religion. If I want to have a drink or hook up with a girl does that suddenly mean I no longer accept Jesus as Christ or that I blaspheme against God?

Its the "all or nothing" mentality that breeds intolerance and turns the average man away from religion. True story, a person who was a Christian for less than year once told me I was going to burn in hell for being a Catholic. I don't know where this person gets off saying anything like that to anyone, but its the "all or nothing" dogma he subscribed to that led him to turn a positive thing like religion into a focus for hate and bigotry.


I totally think that Sex is out of the question before marriage... ok this will raise a lot of contraversy (many might think i am weird or something but what the heck that is what i believe...), ... think of it on the flip side, what if you knew your wife had sex with several other ppl, how that make you feel.... anyway the emotional burden is way to great for me to bear... i have urges but i know the result will not be pretty.... no comment on the booze and other stuff though...



Originally posted by latingirl
You guys are going to think I'm such a "fake" christian for saying this but...

I actually have a drink now and then...:eek:
*snip*
The bible says to "live soberly" not "don't drink" (oh, by the way, "cleanliness is next to godliness" isn't in there either). And in so many places it tells you to use wisdom. How am I going to do that if I'm buzzed and actin all stupid?? How am I going to rely on Christ if I drink all the time because I need a "buzz" from life. Or I have to drink to have a "good time". That's foolishness (my opinion). But a drink every now and then, and after you examine your own motives, is not bad or being unfaithful to God.
*snip*
And TD Jakes says "where the bible is silent, the preacher should be silent". I totally agree with that.


same with me... =P

[attgig]

Originally posted by Tuvi
who is TD Jakes?

he's a pastor of a large church in Texas. A few years back, when like half of the Dallas Cowboys became Christians (including Emmit Smith and Deion Sanders), they went to his church.
he also has a number of books out.

[Showtime]

I thought I had said pretty much what I had to on the subject. Sure is nice to have a fairly civiized conversation on the subject. I think that Sept 11th has made people more open to it.

Att,
I don't know what will make me want to go to church. I don't
hate churches or its members. Some close friends go weekly and
I see their struggle and respect them for it. I honestly believe
all humans worship something. Be it sex, $, intellect, science,
technology, drugs, cars, worldly possessions, our mates, ourselves........ we all greatly admire and basically worship something.

Lg,
Can't judge you for having a drink. I'll always drink, I'm drinking right now as i type :P j/k . Usually moderation is key for me.
My friend usually has a glass of wine at dinner but won't when she's around some people cuz she doesnt want them to stumble or judge her.
Christ drank, and he kicked it with the homies :). From what I
read he went out to the people and spread his mssg to all. From
rich scholars/rulers to the poor working class to the seedy people
that were around in his day. I believe he didnt over indulge in it but he did drink.

Good luck all with your search,
-jel:halo:

[johnnymk]

Born Again Believers believe that the finished work of Jesus is adequate for the payment of their sins: "For by grace are ye saved
through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 1, verses 8 & 9)
When Jesus died on the cross he said: "It is finished".
All of the religions of the world, including many so-called Christian religions add works to the equation of salvation. They will tell you that you must do something to satisfy God. This may include going to church every Sunday, giving of yourself to some doctrine, obeying a set of rules, sacrificing your body or giving up certain things, obeying the Ten Commandments and on and on.
The scripture I quoted says that you can not work your way to God. He has done it all and paid for it all . All he asks is that you accept his work on the cross as sufficient payment for your sins. If you look at that scripture it states that salvation is a gift. Gifts are something you don't work for. Gifts are free. If you had to work for them, they would not be called gifts. In addition, it states that no man should boast about what he has done for God. The Lord gets all the credit, because he has done it all. Nothing that man does deserves any merit as the condition for salvation.
Concerning the "all or nothing" attitude: if that were the case, nobody would make it. If God were that strict, he would be a madman.
What many people get confused by is that when a peson is born again, they enter into a special relationship with God. This transformation places natural born man into the family of God. He is now a son or daughter of God. This is his permanent relationship, which can never be severed. However, "fellowship" can be broken between his children and him. There are many things whch can cause this. It is the Holy Spirit's function to bring those practices or beliefs to the believer so that he can confess them and ultimately restore fellowship with him. The thing to remember is "relationship", which is permanent and "fellowship" which can be transient.
I have a special beef against the Catholic religion because they do not use the Word of God as the basis for salvation. They have used tradition as a guide and the false belief that the Catholic church is the highest authority available to Man. They have elevated the Pope to a level that is blasphemous. They have also substitited Mary as a mediator to God. They have added rituals and ceremonies which anger
God. They have deified certain individuals in the past and continue to do so. They believe in infant baptism, confessing their sins to so-called men of God,a perverted emphasis on holy water and bread, celebrating special days like Lent and on and on. None of this is scriptural. It was invented by men to keep an ungodly institution (business ) alive.
They even have a special sin called the sin of presumption. This sin states that you can not know for sure whether you are truly saved. The Bible says that you can know for sure. The Catholic church has a history of willingly keeping people in the dark and because of this
will be held especially accountable on Judgement Day.
Many Jews believe that Christians have perpetrated heinous acts against them in the past. These acts included the crusades, the holocaust, and numerous other horrific acts which Born Again believers would or should not even consider. However, in the name of
Christianity, it was Catholics which performed these things. As a matter of fact, Born Again believers have been targetted by them,
because they know that they have the truth.
The Catholic church has had a history of anti-Semitism which still exists today. Because of this , Born Again believers have to make
them aware that it was the Catholic church and not Christains who were responsible.
Even in Europe today, where many Catholics reside, they deride Israel every chance that they get and help to aid that ungodly institution called the United Nations.
I hope this clarifies what constitites the Biblical defintion of what a Christian is instead of what people may presume it to be.

[Cantacuzene]

I knew a mis-informed Catholic basher would show up, they always do...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by johnnymk

I have a special beef against the Catholic religion because they do not use the Word of God as the basis for salvation.

]So I guess that wasnt the Bible the priest was reading out of, or the book sitting next to my bed stand last night?

They have used tradition as a guide and the false belief that the Catholic church is the highest authority available to Man.

...on Earth. No one in the Church says that the Church is higher than God or anything like that.

They have elevated the Pope to a level that is blasphemous.

Not to give you a history lesson, but the Pope has been seen as Jesus' representative on Earth since St. Peter. I'm not sure what specific allegations you have against us, but no one "worships" the Pope, we simply see him as the highest mortal religious authority, hence he is very holy.

They have also substitited Mary as a mediator to God.

Don't you think Mary has a special connection to Jesus as his mother? Asking St. Mary to have Jesus pray for you isnt wrong to me.

They have added rituals and ceremonies which anger
God.

Which sacrament dont you agree with? You think the Eucharist "angers God?" The holy sacraments have been practised by Christians since the very first days of teh religion. Who are you to question them? This comment really angers me, you presume to know what God thinks on certain issues. All this shows is you are an ignorant yokel who bought into bigotted epiphets.

They have deified certain individuals in the past and continue to do so.

I suppose you are talking about the canonization of saints? Diefication means "making like God." No Catholic worships saints, when a Catholic prays to a saint they are asking for that saint to make an extra special request to God on the person's behalf, usually relating to the saints area of expertise in life.

They believe in infant baptism, confessing their sins to so-called men of God,a perverted emphasis on holy water and bread, celebrating special days like Lent and on and on. None of this is scriptural. It was invented by men to keep an ungodly institution (business ) alive.

I don't see the harm in infant baptism. I don't see what is wrong with confessing to a priest. They are men of God. Becoming a priest is holy sacrament, its very important, anyone who questions the necesity of priests is a fool. What do Catholics do with holy water that's "perverted?" And by bread I think you mean communal bread, which if you read the Bible has a very important scriptural role.

They even have a special sin called the sin of presumption. This sin states that you can not know for sure whether you are truly saved. The Bible says that you can know for sure.

Presumption is to keep good Christians from going around pretending to be holier than thou and saying how much better they are than all you sinners. It ties in with the sin of pride. The Bible also says not to judge people in place of God, including yourself. Don't presume anything, let God be your judge. I dont see anything wrong with that doctrine.

The Catholic church has a history of willingly keeping people in the dark and because of this
will be held especially accountable on Judgement Day.

It's funny how close that sounds to "all Catholics will burn in Hell for eternity." You are a seriously hate filled person, I suggest you look inside yourself and come to grips with your anger. That also sounds like you know the will of God. Thanks for clearing that up. Since you do so good a job of judging everyone, why doesn't God just elevate you to his chief judge once you get to Heaven.

Many Jews believe that Christians have perpetrated heinous acts against them in the past. These acts included the crusades, the holocaust, and numerous other horrific acts which Born Again believers would or should not even consider.

Wow, way to stretch back to the middle ages on that one. You could also indict the English, French and German governments too for the crusades, because they indorsed it. As for the holocaust issue, I believe Hitler and his high command were all Athiests, not Catholics and as for the Pope "ignoring it," what exactly would you have had him do? There are millions of Protestants in Europe, why didnt any of them say anything? Why is the Pope the only one who could have said anything?


However, in the name of
Christianity, it was Catholics which performed these things. As a matter of fact, Born Again believers have been targetted by them,
because they know that they have the truth.

"Targetted" huh? I'd like to know what you're talking about. I don't see the priest give anti-protestant sermons on Sunday, but I do hear anti-Catholic speeches coming from Baptist churches. You tell me who is spreading the hate.

The Catholic church has had a history of anti-Semitism which still exists today. Because of this , Born Again believers have to make
them aware that it was the Catholic church and not Christains who were responsible.
Even in Europe today, where many Catholics reside, they deride Israel every chance that they get and help to aid that ungodly institution called the United Nations.

EUROPE has a history of anti-semitism, not the Church. Martin Luther, the first protestant was a vicious anti-semite. John Calvin was an anti-semite. The problem isnt the Church being anti-semetic, its the fact that Europe is a breading ground for such thought. As far as the current wave of anti-semitism in Europe, its happening in northern germany, and the Low Countries, which are NOT Catholic areas of Europe, so explain that one. You also make it seem as though "Catholics" are not "Christians." News flash buddy, Christianity didn't start in the 1600's. The Catholic/Orthodox Church were the first christian churches. Catholicism is a denomination with in the greater community of Christendom. You make it sound as if they aren't Christian at all, which is just mindless, uneducated hate no doubt taught to you by an uneducated, mindless pastor at a po-dunk church in the middle of the deep south.

I hope this clarifies what constitites the Biblical defintion of what a Christian is instead of what people may presume it to be.

Thanks for that, I'm sure now that you've given your hate filled, intolerant, uneducated opinion on what YOU think a good Christian is everyone will see how truly wrong I and the other 5.9 billion people on the Earth are.

[topane]

Relax, Cantacuzene. Johnnymk gets all his material from Chick tracts (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp).

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by topane
Relax, Cantacuzene. Johnnymk gets all his material from Chick tracts (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp).

Oh good, to think that he may have got some of his info from a biased, unreliable source, that would have been scary. :P

[GraingerGuy]

I don't see the harm in infant baptism. I don't see what is wrong with confessing to a priest. They are men of God. Becoming a priest is holy sacrament, its very important, anyone who questions the necesity of priests is a fool. What do Catholics do with holy water that's "perverted?" And by bread I think you mean communal bread, which if you read the Bible has a very important scriptural role.

With infant baptism the only beef I have with that is that they have no idea what they are doing. Being born again into the family of God should (imo) be a conscience decision on the part of the person.

I also don't see the need to confess to a priest. Yes, they are holy men of God....but they are sinners just like anyone else. We can come to God anytime, anywhere with our own prayers. We can tell God anything we want to....and it's cool with Him. I find that SO awesome that we have a direct conncetion to God to talk with our Dad.


Not to give you a history lesson, but the Pope has been seen as Jesus' representative on Earth since St. Peter. I'm not sure what specific allegations you have against us, but no one "worships" the Pope, we simply see him as the highest mortal religious authority, hence he is very holy.

How is he the highest mortal religious authority? I really don't see how just because he sees the bible in one way that is they way all people should see it. Like it was mentioned somewhere in this thread...there are different interpretations of the bible....and who (except God) is to say that they are not right vs. the Pope.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

That being said, I am a Seventh Day Adventist...and I love it! :D We've been seen as a "holier than thou" cult for a while...but now...I think with my generation, we are slowly getting rid of that stigma. For this, I am VERY glad.

I might not agree with everything that Cantacuzene believes but I'm certainly not going to judge him for not believing like I do. He's worshiping God according to the bible as best as he knows how...and I'm doing the same. In that....we are brothers.

I love God...plain and simple. What else needs to be said? :D

[latingirl]

That being said, I am a Seventh Day Adventist...and I love it! :D

I skimmed the message (as I've been doing A LOT lately cause there is soo much to read), but I agree with you on the baptisms, confession of sins and partially on the Pope cause I don't really understand the Catholic belief on that.

But just out of cuiousity...why do you observe the sabbath/go to church on Saturday?? Can you provide scripture references? I'm not judging or saying you guys ain't christians/are a cult, I just don't know much about the denomination.

What do you know about "International Church of Christ"?

[GraingerGuy]

Originally posted by latingirl


But just out of cuiousity...why do you observe the sabbath/go to church on Saturday?? Can you provide scripture references? I'm not judging or saying you guys ain't christians/are a cult, I just don't know much about the denomination.


I would be happy to! :)


Gen 2:1-3

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.

And by the seventh day God completed His work which He had done; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Ex. 20: 8-11 - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Ex. 35:2 - Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.


Mark 2:27 -
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:


Mostly because the commandments tell me to, I worship on the Sabbath. But, after arguing on another forum with a person who is berating all SDAs for worshiping on the Sabbath, my conviction is even firmer that I should worship on Sabbath.

And no...I have never heard of the International Church of Christ? Is that what you're a part of?

[latingirl]

Graing - you gave me scripture backing up the sabbath, which I understand. I guess my question to you is, why do you observe the sabbath on Saturday than on Sunday like most folks. Although, I know Jews go temple on Saturday, does it have anything to do with that? I wanted to know if there were scripture references to the sabbath being on Sat instead of Sun.

I was just curious about Int'l church of christ...I go to a non-denominational church.

I ain't gonna bash you, just want some knowledge is all...

[NuTs62]

Too much to read through and quote.. But the little that I read, I must agree with GraingerGuy. I don't like the idea of infant baptism. The thing about Christianity is that you've gotta want it, for yourself. People should be given the choice to pick what they want. And if they so happen to choose to believe in Christianity, then it makes it ever so much more special. The way I see it, God gave us a choice. Why didn't he make us all Christians? To all believe in him? He could have easily done that. Then perhaps we'd live in a perfect world right? I forget where I'm going with this.. bleah..

And confessing to a priest? Sure, they perhaps have more knowledge of the Bible, and have dedicated their lives to serving God, but there are millions of people who do that without the title. Why must we confess our sins to a priest? They are human, they have their flaws. And it has been quite apparent in the past few years, with the scandals, cover ups, and the molestation of the boys. They are sinners, just like the rest of us. The way I see it, I have a personal relationship with God. I don't need to relay information to a priest or anyone but him.

[GraingerGuy]

Originally posted by latingirl
Graing - you gave me scripture backing up the sabbath, which I understand. I guess my question to you is, why do you observe the sabbath on Saturday than on Sunday like most folks. Although, I know Jews go temple on Saturday, does it have anything to do with that? I wanted to know if there were scripture references to the sabbath being on Sat instead of Sun.


Actually the reason I go to church on the Sabbath is because I have not found anywhere in the bible where it is Sunday. Like on the first verse I gave you....it said that God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it. A lot of languages call Saturday Sabbath. Spanish, Chinese, Jewish, etc.

These are my reasons. I've just started really studying and trying to listen to what God wants me to do...so I probably wouldn't be the best person to talk about SDAs. www.clubadventist.com has a forum with a lot of people there with a TON of more experience than me about explaining the SDA beliefs to others. I'm sorry I'm not explaining this very well...I went though a "rebelious" period against SDAs...and I've just been turned back on to it...:)

[johnnymk]

If the Catholic church used the Bible as their authority, they would not follow the practices or teach the doctrines that I mentioned.
The Bible says to call no man your Father. Priests are called fathers. The pope is called the holy father.
The Bible says that the body of believers is the church. The church is not an institution or a special area such as the Holy See in Rome where decrees are given or where God looks on with special favor." "Where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am".
The Bible says that the celebration of the bread and wine is an act to remember what he did on the cross. It has no saving power or any blessing attached to it. As a matter of fact, it says that if a person performs this ceremony unworthily or lightly, he can come down with serious illness or even die.
In addition, every born again believer is a saint; not just special people who have done great miracles. In addition, to pray to dead people. i.e celebrated saints is strictly forbidden.
The Bible says that there is one mediator between God the Father and Man; that is the Lord Jesus Christ. Mary was the natural mother of Jesus; nothing more, nothing less. She has no saving power and she does not mediate anything between Man and God.
Infant baptism is not even mentioned in the Bible. A person must willingly make a decision to accept Christ as his/her Saviour. A person too young to know anything about who Jesus is and why he died is incapable of making that decision. It means absolutely nothing to God.
Confession of sins are to be made directly to God or to "one another". There are no special individuals mentioned in the Bible which have the ability to listen to confessions. And especially, they do not have the power to forgive you of anything.
I have been to Catholic churches and I am amazed at the rituals that they perform; as if they mean anything to God. "For the simplicity of
Christ is foolishness to those who perish"
They have prayers which are repeated over and over, which is strictly forbidden in the Bible. "Do not pray repetitious prayers like the heathen do."
Special days like Lent are not scriptural. Giving up something to prove something to Him is a waste of time. A contrite broken heart is
the sacrifice that pleases God.
And..exposing errors is not a hate filled thing to do. God commands us to expose the works of darkness.
What if you had a daughter and knew what was coming on that fateful eve of the Titanic sinking. Would you have blessed her on her way or would you have done something about it? As majestic and well built and famous as the Titanic was, it still sank. I wouldn't want to have been responsible had I known differently.
The Catholic church has been around for centuries. Many people believe that if they are born Catholic that they are part of an institution that God respects. That is the farthest thing from the truth imaginable.

[oblongmelon]

I have tried REALLY HARD to stay out of this thread-because there have been some comments that have bugged me regarding the Catholic faith..but in light of skewing someone else's take on my religion of which I am very faithful, I had to jump in. Now let me just say that I'm not going to get in a knock down drag out here-
first of all-I pray to Mary, Just as I pray to St.Ann and Other saints- prayer to the saints does not bypass Christ but is actually a request to the saints to intercede for us before the throne of Christ in Heaven. Scripture teaches us that the angels and saints place the prayers of the holy on earth before the throne of God (Tob 12:12, Rev 5:8 and Rev 8:3-4). So if we believe scripture, we can agree that the the saints are interceding for us before God. And also, Catholics don't just depend on the Bible for our insight,but also in the scriptural teachings that were around along time before bibles were.
Most of the traditional apostolic scriptures were passed on verbally from one person to another. The bible itself was not put together until 400 ad, and actually in print until printing presses became available in the 1400's, which proves that virtually all of the scriptural teachings at the time that were being passed on orally..were open to interpretation at the time of the bible printings. And don't forget, the earliest of bibles DID NOT HAVE A NEW TESTAMENT. In the catholic church that I belong to now, and have always belonged to, we were taught that the bible is only historical documentation as to the word of god, and that scriptural readings were to inspire feelings in one's self regarding particular readings/enlightenment. There is no where in the catholic religion that I have ever been taught that we believe the bible word for word.All I have to say is..why criticize someone else's religious beliefs,if it works for them then be greatful they are respectful of the lord at all, and go on about your merry way. The only way into the true kindom of the lord is to be a good person.believe in the lord and love him with all your heart...being critical of other religions is just dumb... Ok I better stop now, I'm getting wordy.

[CluelessSi]

Originally posted by latingirl
Graing - you gave me scripture backing up the sabbath, which I understand. I guess my question to you is, why do you observe the sabbath on Saturday than on Sunday like most folks. Although, I know Jews go temple on Saturday, does it have anything to do with that? I wanted to know if there were scripture references to the sabbath being on Sat instead of Sun.

I was just curious about Int'l church of christ...I go to a non-denominational church.

I ain't gonna bash you, just want some knowledge is all...
if i recall correctly Sabbath is a sat but later we started to worship on Sunday because that is the day Jesus rose...

[CluelessSi]

Originally posted by GraingerGuy


<snip>
and sanctified it. A lot of languages call Saturday Sabbath. Spanish, Chinese, Jewish, etc.

<snip>


Really chinese? hmmm.... i don't remember that... maybe anceint chinese... :shrug:

[topane]

Originally posted by latingirl
But just out of cuiousity...why do you observe the sabbath/go to church on Saturday?? Can you provide scripture references?


Originally posted by CluelessSi

if i recall correctly Sabbath is a sat but later we started to worship on Sunday because that is the day Jesus rose...

Here's a little history (http://www.religioustolerance.org/sabbath.htm).

[CluelessSi]

Originally posted by oblongmelon
I have tried REALLY HARD to stay out of this thread-because there have been some comments that have bugged me regarding the Catholic faith..but in light of skewing someone else's take on my religion of which I am very faithful, I had to jump in. Now let me just say that I'm not going to get in a knock down drag out here-
first of all-I pray to Mary, Just as I pray to St.Ann and Other saints- prayer to the saints does not bypass Christ but is actually a request to the saints to intercede for us before the throne of Christ in Heaven. Scripture teaches us that the angels and saints place the prayers of the holy on earth before the throne of God (Tob 12:12, Rev 5:8 and Rev 8:3-4). So if we believe scripture, we can agree that the the saints are interceding for us before God. And also, Catholics don't just depend on the Bible for our insight,but also in the scriptural teachings that were around along time before bibles were.
Most of the traditional apostolic scriptures were passed on verbally from one person to another. The bible itself was not put together until 400 ad, and actually in print until printing presses became available in the 1400's, which proves that virtually all of the scriptural teachings at the time that were being passed on orally..were open to interpretation at the time of the bible printings. And don't forget, the earliest of bibles DID NOT HAVE A NEW TESTAMENT. In the catholic church that I belong to now, and have always belonged to, we were taught that the bible is only historical documentation as to the word of god, and that scriptural readings were to inspire feelings in one's self regarding particular readings/enlightenment. There is no where in the catholic religion that I have ever been taught that we believe the bible word for word.All I have to say is..why criticize someone else's religious beliefs,if it works for them then be greatful they are respectful of the lord at all, and go on about your merry way. The only way into the true kindom of the lord is to be a good person.believe in the lord and love him with all your heart...being critical of other religions is just dumb... Ok I better stop now, I'm getting wordy.


you know it is kinda funny how chathoics have thicker bibles... the Canon is made up of 39 old testment and 27 new testement... The canon fits certain criterea to be God breathed... hmm i think we had a discussion on this before.. anyway one main different in views for chothics vs protestants is how they view the Bible... just wanted to throw that out there. I am not sure how word for word u mean, you have to believe the word in context it is written and also the bible (word of God) as a whole and ultamilty believe in the Word (Christ) In the bible the words will speak out to each of us differently :shrug:

anyway chathoics are fine, I don't alway agree with thier ways but as long as they are living for God then it is fine by me.

[WhiskeyPapa]

Hmmm... I'm starting to regret that I don't visit GotApex on the weekends...


Originally posted by latingirl
I guess my question to you is, why do you observe the sabbath on Saturday than on Sunday like most folks. Although, I know Jews go temple on Saturday, does it have anything to do with that? I wanted to know if there were scripture references to the sabbath being on Sat instead of Sun.
I just thought I'd jump in here. I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist. I don't really belong to any "denomination". Yes, I attend church every Sunday, as well as bible study and generally fellowship with other believers as much as possible. I've been a born-again believer for 9 years. One thing about my personality, is that I don't take anyone's word for anything. If someone tells me something, I check it out.

So, when someone told me that Sunday is the "new" sabbath, I wanted to see if that was true. There is no mistake that in Exodus 20:8, God said "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." He used the word "remember" because he knew that some day, we would "forget" it.

Nowhere in the New Testament can you find an example of believers in Christ considering any day other than Saturday to be Holy. You may point out Acts 20, where a boy fell out of a window while Paul was speaking to the believers on "the first day of the week". This verse is often used to point out that the believers considered Sunday to be the Sabbath, but you can find other verses that show the new believers met almost every day.

Anyway, I could go into much more detail, but my exhaustive study lead me to believe that Saturday is still the Sabbath. Up until about the 3rd century, Christians were considered to be just another sect of Judaism. About that time, the leaders of the Christian Church sought to separate themselves from the Jews, and changed their "holy day" to Sunday, to commemorate the day that Christ was resurrected. While our fellowship does meet on Sunday, we call it "The Lord's Day", not the Sabbath.

Now, this is not a salvation issue. You will not go to heaven or hell based on what day you go to church.


Originally posted by latingirl
I was just curious about Int'l church of christ...I go to a non-denominational church.
I don't know anything, but here is their web site: http://www.icoc.org

However, I am intimately familiar with the International House of Pancakes: http://www.ihop.com

[attgig]

Originally posted by latingirl
What do you know about "International Church of Christ"?

CULT!!!!

don't need to know more!

CULT!!!!

[topane]

Originally posted by attgig


CULT!!!!

don't need to know more!

CULT!!!! "...if you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps the religion; and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect; but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult."
--Leo Pfeffer

[WhiskeyPapa]

Originally posted by oblongmelon
being critical of other religions is just dumb...
Y'know, one of the most profound statements that really keeps me conscious of my effect on people as a Christian, actually came from a Hindu:

"I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians, because they are so unlike your Christ."
- Mahatma Gandhi

As we have seen with the recent terrorism, people will take a religion, and distort it to gain followers for their "cause". Christianity is not immune to that.

[latingirl]

Originally posted by kb0wwp
One thing about my personality, is that I don't take anyone's word for anything. If someone tells me something, I check it out.

That's real. I'm the same way. You gotta be, you have to read the bible and do reasearch for YO-SELF! Men are not infallable (that includes the Pope). I haven't addressed the Catholic issue yet because I just ain't had time AND I know how devout Catholics are. I know their hearts are in the right place and whatever I say, I don't want to offend them (or anyone else for that matter).


Now, this is not a salvation issue. You will not go to heaven or hell based on what day you go to church.

I TOTALLY agree. I'm personnally just looking for knowledge, but I'm sure there's a "denomination" out there that will say you are saved only if you go to church on Saturday (or Sunday). :(


However, I am intimately familiar with the International House of Pancakes: http://www.ihop.com

Okay, now I'm hungry for some BOMB IHOP pancakes!!!

[attgig]

Originally posted by topane
"...if you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps the religion; and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect; but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult."
--Leo Pfeffer

http://www.reveal.org/

my friend in college was actively persued by them. Their practices are detrimental to the spiritual and emotional health of people.

sure, you can accuse me of "fearing and hating" it or whatever, but you ask anyone outside of the icoc that has at least researched them or have once been a part of them, they'll tell ya, they have at least "cultish" tendencies...

[topane]

Originally posted by attgig


http://www.reveal.org/

my friend in college was actively persued by them. Their practices are detrimental to the spiritual and emotional health of people.

sure, you can accuse me of "fearing and hating" it or whatever, but you ask anyone outside of the icoc that has at least researched them or have once been a part of them, they'll tell ya, they have at least "cultish" tendencies... Oh, they do, I wasn't trying to say you were wrong ;). I just like that quote. I've always found religion fascinating, especially as one group views others. I'm the resident non-believer anyway, so I think all religions are cults (nothing personal), although some are more "cultish" than others (like $cientology).

[Cantacuzene]

Johnny, you quote scripture pretty well, and I'll be honest: I don't have the Bible memorized verse for verse. I will tell you something else: the most respected theologians in the world are Catholics or Eastern Orthodox and if you want to get into an arguement about scripture go find one of them to battle with, I'm sure they will be more than happy to put their phD to use.

My main point is, I'm trying to be an inclusive person that respects other people's religions and see the inherent goodness in the world's major religions, while you on teh other hand, are a holier than thou religious bigot who treats salvation/heaven/etc as an exclusive reward to you and your other close minded friends. I'm not going to respond to anything you say on this topic any longer.

Let me finish by saying, you are a grown man but you obviously havent learned very much about the ways of the world, and if you have, you havent grown very much as a person. Religion should make you a better, kinder, and more forgiving person, but with you it has made you the opposite.

[Cantacuzene]

Most people seem to have a problem with infant baptism and confession.

As far as infant baptism goes, I can see it both ways. For Catholics, we have baptism, holy communion, confirmation. Its like a step. Baptism may not be voluntary, but the other two are so I think it makes sense.

Confession is kinda like when something is greater than the sum of it's parts. You are a human, the priest is a human, the confessional is just a building, but when all three come together you get the feeling that its more than that. I can't describe it very well so I hope you understand.

[Tuvi]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
Confession is kinda like when something is greater than the sum of it's parts. You are a human, the priest is a human, the confessional is just a building, but when all three come together you get the feeling that its more than that. I can't describe it very well so I hope you understand.
Right. But the real reason we have confession is that Catholics believe priests are the successors of the apostles. St. Peter was the first pope, and an unbroken line of popes can be traced back to him. Thats how the whole "structure" of the Church was started. Now, as we all know, on Pentecost, Jesus gave the keys to Peter and the power to forgive sins to him and the apostles. "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." I dunno where that is, but he definitely gave them that power. The bible also says to confess your sins to other Christians. The priest also gives us counselling and advice on how not to keep sinning. I really don't understand the big deal about confession. It's really a great thing, IMHO. It really makes you open yourself up before God. Even though the priest is there, you are actually saying your sins outloud and realizing how serious they actually are (as the case may be). It's so easy just to say or think, "God forgive me for my sins." But with confession, you have to come face to face with what you did, say it outloud, and pray for forgiveness, all while getting some expert advice along the way.

And about "praying to Mary and the saints." We ask for INTERCESSION. We don't pray TO them because our prayers are ultimately directed to God, who is the only one deserving of all our worship. Mary interceded for the people at the party where Jesus turned water into wine. She is now in heaven (she was the greatest disciple, after all) along with the saints and Jesus, so she has good access to Him. Haven't any of you ever asked a friend to pray for you when you're going through a difficult time, preparing for a major exam, or some other bad situation? Protestants do that all the time. Lots of churches take prayer requests and have groups of people that just pray for those people's requests. It's the same thing as asking MAry and the saints to pray for us. The Hail Mary is nothing more than asking her to pray on our behalf to Jesus. The first half of the H.M. is directly from scripture. The second half just asks her to pray for us.

While I'm at it, I'll address the idea of "knowing for sure" if one is saved. I'm no bible expert (although I know what it says, just can't remember where), but Paul consistently speaks of the "HOPE" of salvation in romans, and other epistles. There are verses where he speaks of salvation and prays that he does not fall short of it, or lsoe it. Crap, I wish I knew the exact verses. Of all people, don't you think that Paul should know without a doubt that he's going to heaven? If so, why does he keep referring to it as a hope?

One last thought. There is a pasage in Timothy (and no, i don't remember where), but it says to "Hold fast to these traditions, whether written down or passed down orally." That's a paraphrase, mind you. Also there's a verse at the very end of 1 John that says that everything Jesus did could not be contained in one book, lest the book be the size of the world, or something else very big. So doesn't that tell you that the apostles and early church fathers learned stuff from Jesus that wasn't necessarily written down? It's called tradition, and it goes along with scripture to make up the Catholic Church.

some of you might want to check out www.catholic.com for some more answers. It also explains infant baptism as well as everything else.

[Tuvi]

Originally posted by CluelessSi



you know it is kinda funny how chathoics have thicker bibles... the Canon is made up of 39 old testment and 27 new testement... The canon fits certain criterea to be God breathed... hmm i think we had a discussion on this before.. anyway one main different in views for chothics vs protestants is how they view the Bible... just wanted to throw that out there. I am not sure how word for word u mean, you have to believe the word in context it is written and also the bible (word of God) as a whole and ultamilty believe in the Word (Christ) In the bible the words will speak out to each of us differently :shrug:

anyway chathoics are fine, I don't alway agree with thier ways but as long as they are living for God then it is fine by me.

I didn't really want to get into this conversation, but there are things in here that I just can't let go..

The only difference between Catholic and Protestant bibles is the Old Testament. The Cath. one has more books, called the deutrocanonicals by catholics, apocypha by prots. This is a big debate between caths and prots because the catholic book 2 Maccabees contains a verse that says "it is a good and holy thing to pray for the dead, that they may see God." Again, a paraphrase. But the thing is, is that the catholics were the ones who put together the bible, preserved it, and protected it. We had the same bible up until Luther decided to take it apart. He put the apocrypha into an appendix and he also put james and revelation into an appendix. it's no wonder abt james because it says faith without works is dead, contradicting the sola fide argument. (we are saved by grace THROUGH faith, btw, not BY faith.). But anyway, those OT books in the appendix were dropped, but james and rev were kept in.

I was going to attempt to explain more, but it's all history and I want to check some facts and dates before I start posting more. Just go to www.catholic.com. there are tons of articles abt this topic.

[CluelessSi]

Originally posted by Tuvi

*snip*
While I'm at it, I'll address the idea of "knowing for sure" if one is saved. I'm no bible expert (although I know what it says, just can't remember where), but Paul consistently speaks of the "HOPE" of salvation in romans, and other epistles. There are verses where he speaks of salvation and prays that he does not fall short of it, or lsoe it. Crap, I wish I knew the exact verses. Of all people, don't you think that Paul should know without a doubt that he's going to heaven? If so, why does he keep referring to it as a hope?


I have always wondered about that... but as I learned that hope in terms of biblical hope it promises that have not come true but with faith it will come true. ... at least i think i remember hearing that...

[attgig]

Originally posted by CluelessSi

I have always wondered about that... but as I learned that hope in terms of biblical hope it promises that have not come true but with faith it will come true. ... at least i think i remember hearing that...

what????

re-read what you wrote, cause, it ain't making sense....

you learned that: hope-in terms of biblical hope- it promises that have not come true, but with faith it will come true
????
:confused:

[CluelessSi]

Originally posted by Tuvi


I didn't really want to get into this conversation, but there are things in here that I just can't let go..

The only difference between Catholic and Protestant bibles is the Old Testament. The Cath. one has more books, called the deutrocanonicals by catholics, apocypha by prots. This is a big debate between caths and prots because the catholic book 2 Maccabees contains a verse that says "it is a good and holy thing to pray for the dead, that they may see God." Again, a paraphrase. But the thing is, is that the catholics were the ones who put together the bible, preserved it, and protected it. We had the same bible up until Luther decided to take it apart. He put the apocrypha into an appendix and he also put james and revelation into an appendix. it's no wonder abt james because it says faith without works is dead, contradicting the sola fide argument. (we are saved by grace THROUGH faith, btw, not BY faith.). But anyway, those OT books in the appendix were dropped, but james and rev were kept in.

I was going to attempt to explain more, but it's all history and I want to check some facts and dates before I start posting more. Just go to www.catholic.com. there are tons of articles abt this topic.

the canonical bible meet certain criterea that the apocrypha doesn't meet. one thing that stickes me as being different in catholic and others is how (i maybe wrong but that is the impression given) the church seems to be bigger then God's word in the bible... :shrug: but again i don't have anything against catholics, we believe essentially the same core thing.

another view on the subject
http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/questions/answer.php?catagory=bible&folder=canon&topic=Canon+Of+Scripture&file=selectdocs.xml

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/sbrandt/canon.htm

:shrug: so confusing....

[CluelessSi]

Originally posted by attgig


what????

re-read what you wrote, cause, it ain't making sense....

you learned that: hope-in terms of biblical hope- it promises that have not come true, but with faith it will come true
????
:confused:
\

haha yea i am tired :P anyway i think someone mentioned to me before that hope when listed in the bible are things that you know will come true

[johnnymk]

"Hope" as used in the Bible is "confidence; expectation". It is based on what Jesus has already done.
It is not the term that Americans tend to believe; i.e. wishing for something. I "hope" I win the lottery is an example of how it is used every day.
It is more than that. It is substantial.

[attgig]

Originally posted by johnnymk
"Hope" as used in the Bible is "confidence; expectation". It is based on what Jesus has already done.
It is not the term that Americans tend to believe; i.e. wishing for something. I "hope" I win the lottery is an example of how it is used every day.
It is more than that. It is substantial.


hope is more than just hope to christians because usually faith goes hand in hand with hope.

hebrews 11:1
now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen...


just hoping is kinda depressing and somewhat fruitless.
when you have faith along with it - the things we hope for are re-affirmed and becomes "substantial" as you say.

[CornMonkey]

about the international church of christ...or los angeles church of christ here in s.cali...

most, if not all, have a skewed vision of what "discipleship" really is. their tactics are deemed as "harassment" by most. it's no wonder that they're banned from holding any activities and forming student groups from most universities and colleges.

my heart goes out to those guys.

[attgig]

Originally posted by CornMonkey
about the international church of christ...or los angeles church of christ here in s.cali...

most, if not all, have a skewed vision of what "discipleship" really is. their tactics are deemed as "harassment" by most. it's no wonder that they're banned from holding any activities and forming student groups from most universities and colleges.

my heart goes out to those guys.

skewed vision of "discipleship"....like CONFESS ALL YOUR SINS - then you'll be saved! oh, but not quite... YOU HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED WITH US OR ELSE YOU'RE STILL NOT SAVED! then you better not leave, because we know everything about you!

sigh :(

[latingirl]

Re: ICOC

But are they saved according to Hebrews 10:9-10)?

"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved...."

I have actually heard everything that you guys just stated about them.

From what I heard, they are actually very scary because if you are vulnerable, they will basically take over your life and you have to be accountable to "them" ,i.e. a "brother" or "sister" that is assigned to you, for everything you do. They approve the people you date, hang around and everything, and will threaten to "outcast" you (much like JW's). That's bondage, if you ask me. What happened to the grace of God?

I also heard they have a heirarchy. The more "disciples" you bring in, the higher your rank within the church. Is that true? That's crazy!!! What happened to "God is not a respector of persons"?? Of course, he calls men/women to ministry but there's no "rank".

If God allows us to choose our own lives and even whether or not we believe in Him, who are they to control other people?

[jase71]

Originally posted by latingirl


I also heard they have a heirarchy. The more "disciples" you bring in, the higher your rank within the church. Is that true? That's crazy!!!

Well, there's a subtle bit of irony.

Religion as the ultimate pyramid scheme? :hmm:

[attgig]

Originally posted by latingirl
But are they saved according to Hebrews 10:9-10)?

"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved...."


wow, that's a good question.

taking that verse alone, it seems like they would be...

but it would REALLY be difficult for me to say, yes they are saved...
i mean, who am I to judge them - heck i know I'm not the best person in the world, and all it takes is some Jesus' blood to make us clean.


you know what....
i'm just gonna leave it at that..
ultimately, we don't know - we can guess...but who are we to judge.
God, in his ultimate wisdom will judge.



edit:
talking with a friend about it.
one thing that they are obviously distorting in the bible is how Jesus says, nobody goes throught he father except through HIM.

but ICC/ICOC makes it nobody goes to the Father except through that specific church.

[attgig]

Originally posted by jase71


Well, there's a subtle bit of irony.

Religion as the ultimate pyramid scheme? :hmm:

http://www.reveal.org/abouticc/iccorg.gif