Buddhism

[latingirl]

I have been briefly exposed to Buddhism and the principles SOUND good. But I really don't know enough to comment. I have to admit that I haven't spent much time researching it, since during my own "religious" (I actually don't consider myself religious, I consider myself having a relationship with God and therefore I follow his precepts) search, I found what I (and note that that is a capital "I", I'm not speaking for others) found what I believe to be the "Truth".

But I am open to knowledge. Care to enlighten me... :)

p.s. this is in response to BBBunny asking me what my thoughts are in a previous thread...thought it would serve better to start a new one (new topic).

[coleslaw]

Originally posted by latingirl
I actually don't consider myself religious, I consider myself having a relationship with God and therefore I follow his precepts.I fail to see the difference here. I'm not asking you to extrapolate on it further, either, because it won't do any good. A person that adheres to any kind of religion should be considered religious. If you are saying that you are not religious, then you are saying that you do not follow an established religion. Consequently, if you frequent a church, then you are religious by default. However, if you frequent a churce and do not consider yourself religious, you have exposed yourself as a hypocrite.

[latingirl]

Originally posted by coleslaw
I fail to see the difference here. I'm not asking you to extrapolate on it further, either, because it won't do any good. A person that adheres to any kind of religion should be considered religious. If you are saying that you are not religious, then you are saying that you do not follow an established religion. Consequently, if you frequent a church, then you are religious by default. However, if you frequent a churce and do not consider yourself religious, you have exposed yourself as a hypocrite.

You ARE asking me to "extrapolate" further since you are calling me a hypocrite. And frankly, that's your opinion, it doesn't hurt me or change my view of things. I can respect that you are expressing your opinion.

But just to explain my side of things, and this is just my own thinking it may not be "literally" correct. A "religious" person follows strict guidelines of a belief system usually blindly without really an understanding of what they are doing and/or, many times, to somehow justify themselves as a "good" person. In MY OWN practice of Christianity, it is much like a Father(god)-daughter relationship. When a child follows the rules of the house that the parents establish to create order within the home and to teach and protect the child, we don't call that religious...we call that a parent-child relationship.

And, my church gives me an opportunity to fellowship with those who live the same "lifestyle" or like-faith that I live...one of a loving parent-child relationship with God. Not that I don't communicate or have relationships with those who don't, but there are plenty of secular "clubs" or "organizations" (although not exactly the same as a house of worship) that are developed for people of the same interests.

Since this is my belief, and I am true to that belief, I would hardly call myself a hypocrite, per say. I can admit that since I am not perfect, I may have inadvertently done or said something that could be construed as hypocritical (as we all do), but it is not my intention to be that way.

That's how I see things. :)

But its very interesting that instead of explaining to me what Buddhism is all about, you chose to criticise me...but its all good.
;)

[mojo]

Originally posted by latingirl
You ARE asking me to "extrapolate" further since you are calling me a hypocrite. And frankly, that's your opinion, it doesn't hurt me or change my view of things. I can respect that you are expressing your opinion.i actually didn't see what slaw said as him saying you were a hypocrite or anything.

as far as being religious...i will say that you're not "not religious." you post stuff with your views and such. which is fine...we all seem to have one here.

personally, my problem with a lot of churches and such is that people seem to get caught up in the act of going to church and all. being close to a omniscient and omnipresent deity would actually happen no matter where you are...not so much in a man-made place and stuff. i mean, i'm sure the intention is good and all. but if one goes to church and doesn't act how their god wants, and then another doesn't but yet does adhere to their religious convictions, then perhaps the 2nd is "more religious," despite the outward appearances. and it's all about how we are as people, not where we are on sundays.

anyhow, i'm hoping bbb answers this soon. i've noted chosen's points above, too. and i believe i ordered some books on the subject as well. i did read some stuff in philosophy, which i really dug a lot. so this should be good :D

[latingirl]

Originally posted by coleslaw
However, if you frequent a churce and do not consider yourself religious, you have exposed yourself as a hypocrite.

Just to answer your question...that's where. If I read it wrong, let me know. But I do frequent a church usually several times a week, so....

[Cheesypuff]

Originally posted by latingirl


Just to answer your question...that's where. If I read it wrong, let me know. But I do frequent a church usually several times a week, so....


Really the thing is, going to church several times a week doesn't make you more holy in the aspect of bragging I go to church a lot rather than once a week. I can personally say there a some of my friends that are more in touch with God than I am, and they attend church less than I do.

in regard to buddism, I don't think they teach the right principals as Christians do. And some different denominations in the Christian chuch don't teach the same as others do...which I see a litle ironic. But the Church that I see that teach closer to the bible, is the Seventh day Adentist church. And with that, I'm sticking with with that chruch, because they truly preach about the Love of God:D

[latingirl]

Originally posted by Cheesypuff



Really the thing is, going to church several times a week doesn't make you more holy in the aspect of bragging I go to church a lot rather than once a week. I can personally say there a some of my friends that are more in touch with God than I am, and they attend church less than I do.

in regard to buddism, I don't think they teach the right principals as Christians do. And some different denominations in the Christian chuch don't teach the same as others do...which I see a litle ironic. But the Church that I see that teach closer to the bible, is the Seventh day Adentist church. And with that, I'm sticking with with that chruch, because they truly preach about the Love of God:D

Please, please don't misunderstand me. I'm referring to coleslaw's statement of "exposing myself as a hypocrite" if I go to church and not consider myself religious.

I know people who go I see at church everytime I go. And I can say that there heart is not in the right place just by listening to them speak on thier own priorities and how they judge and criticize others (okay that was a hypocritical statement, but I'm trying to make a point). So I for one, don't believe it makes someone holier because they go to church a lot, but for someone who's heart is in the right place, I think church can be a good thing.

[latingirl]

OKAY...this was supposed to be a thread about BUDDHISM, not Christianity!!!!

[coleslaw]

So.... if you are going to a church (yes, church this time - not churce - typos suck!) to practice a religion or to fellowship with others of the same religion, that inherently makes you "religious".

Whether or not you choose to accept this fact or not is beside the point. If you adhere to any religion, you are religious. I can make up my own definitions, too. Let's say for example that I claim that being a Democrat means that someone participates in a democratic goverment. By this definition, everyone that has ever voted in the United States would be considered a Democrat. I could have voted for a ticket that was entirely Republican-based, yet I still claim to be a Democrat based upon my own definition. I could go around telling people that I don't consider myself to be a Republican, yet when they find out that I voted exclusively for Republican officials, they would claim that I was a hypocrite.

latingirl, all I am saying is that it is not reasonable to assign definitions to words that have pre-defined meanings in society and make claims based on those definitions. I find it amusing that you, someone who has started numerous threads with religious themes, state that you do not consider yourself to be religious. This is akin to a scientist publishing countless scientific papers yet at the same time claiming that he/she is not a "scientist".

I meant no harm in my previous statements and I did not specifically mean to call you a hypocrite (it was more of a general rhetorical statement). I did, however, intend to give you something to think about and to force you to question your claims of not being religous.

That is all. Carry on.

[latingirl]

Originally posted by coleslaw
I meant no harm in my previous statements and I did not specifically mean to call you a hypocrite (it was more of a general rhetorical statement). I did, however, intend to give you something to think about and to force you to question your claims of not being religous.

That is all. Carry on.

Okay, I can get with that...at least as something to consider...

BTW, no harm done...;)

[Napoleon54]

courtesy of dictionary.com:


re·li·gion n.

1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

[mojo]

Originally posted by Cheesypuff
in regard to buddism, I don't think they teach the right principals as Christians do. And some different denominations in the Christian chuch don't teach the same as others do...which I see a litle ironic. so...let me get this straight: the Christians teach the right thing, and the rest of the world is just off?

ok, you're a Christian, so i can see why you'd believe that. either that or i got stuck on the semantics ("i dont think they teach the right principals....christian church <doesn't> teach as others do" [not a matter of "right" there]).

so how long did you study the other religions before you decided they were wrong, just out of curiosity? i mean, did you read a few chapters, a few books, study intensely for some time, or what? hopefully the churches today will teach you that you can explore stuff to find out what you think is right, instead of just cramming one view down your throat and claiming it's "the truth."

[latingirl]

My problem here is, I don't hear any of you talking about what Buddhists believe, why you are a Buddhist, etc. Yet you keep stating that those who believe in Christianity what or why they never studied Buddhism. I mean here's an opportunity to teach someone something about who you are (which I have stated I'm open to) and honestly, all you are doing is criticizing.

I told you that I have found this is right for me several times AFTER studying and exploring different religions. :shrug: Since I was sure, I didn't feel the need to continue my search. Nor was I "raised" into Christianity. I also don't think that you have to necessarily know about EVERY single religion in the world to know what is right for you.

How many religions have you studied before you became a Buddhist (If you are a Buddhist)?

[mojo]

Originally posted by latingirl
My problem here is, I don't hear any of you talking about what Buddhists believe, why you are a Buddhist, etc. Yet you keep stating that those who believe in Christianity what or why they never studied Buddhism. I mean here's an opportunity to teach someone something about who you are (which I have stated I'm open to) and honestly, all you are doing is criticizing.

I told you that I have found this is right for me several times AFTER studying and exploring different religions. :shrug: Since I was sure, I didn't feel the need to continue my search. Nor was I "raised" into Christianity. I also don't think that you have to necessarily know about EVERY single religion in the world to know what is right for you.

How many religions have you studied before you became a Buddhist (If you are a Buddhist)? last i checked, i quoted cheesypuff. and correct me if i'm wrong, but you just said "keep saying that" when i said it once...and i don't recall anyone else saying it.

maybe you should relax a bit there, girly girl :P

this is the "off topic" forum. a lot of replies within a thread won't be exactly what the original poster was looking for.

now as far as knowing stuff about every single religion in the world...that would be very difficult to do. but if it could be done, count me as one that would like to do that to figure out what's going on around here rather than blindly lash out on people because of a few "i thinks" here and there (and no, i didn't say you did that). if you know what is right for you, then more power to you. however, if you "know" what is right for you, hopefully you won't snub what is truly right for you just because you don't recognize it as a result know what you already "know."

[latingirl]

Originally posted by chosenfool
in this situation, LG, best way to learn about buddhism is to read up. Its useless here on the boards, only because people will tell you what they believe in, or may tell you something unrelated, but not always what you are looking for. In most cases it will colored commentary.

check out the books i mentioned. or go to barnes and noble or borders, and go to their buddhism/eastern religion section. there is SO MUCH written about buddhism, and you can learn a LOT MORE there than asking here.

Thanks, Chosen...YOU are usually the voice of reason...:D

[CornMonkey]

i'm a christian. my mom's a buddhist. that's why i took a couple courses at ucla about buddhism. basically, in a nutshell, what chosenfool said in the 2nd post of this thread sums up buddhism.

to me, buddhist goals didn't give me that sense of hope that christianity does. buddhism seemed to be very "self" motivated.

[Cheesypuff]

Originally posted by mojo
so...let me get this straight: the Christians teach the right thing, and the rest of the world is just off?

ok, you're a Christian, so i can see why you'd believe that. either that or i got stuck on the semantics ("i dont think they teach the right principals....christian church <doesn't> teach as others do" [not a matter of "right" there]).

so how long did you study the other religions before you decided they were wrong, just out of curiosity? i mean, did you read a few chapters, a few books, study intensely for some time, or what? hopefully the churches today will teach you that you can explore stuff to find out what you think is right, instead of just cramming one view down your throat and claiming it's "the truth."

The thing is, the reason why I think the Christian church is "more right" than others is because I've read the Bible and have taken to account what the Bible has said. the fact that Christian teach closer to the bible is why I stay a Christian, which teach me moral values...not saying that others do not...but others do not follow the Bible and what it teaches as closely as the Christian Church. The thing is, Which is kinda sad to me, is that. By my own interpritation I don't think the church all out wants us to seperate from that church, so they usually don't encurage us to "explore".

Sorry for the bad grammar...I hope you got what I'm trying to say.

[DaFunkyUnit]

Originally posted by Cheesypuff


in regard to buddism, I don't think they teach the right principals as Christians do.

well now, painting with a broad brush, arent we?

looking through some of the recent posts, i figure its about time someone who is actually a buddhist speak up.

yes, i'm a buddhist, but i rarely go to temple and do the whole dealy. i find that buddhism and its principles focus more on the self (as Chosen mentioned). it emphasizes on how one should live, on achieving balance, etc... it leaves a person with a lot of room for interpretation, but the standard moral/ethical rules apply eg. dont kill/murder, etc... Rather than treating it as a "religion," its more like "A bunch of principles." (imho)

a lot of people think of religion as faith, as going to church, as saying prayer, as spreading the knowledge of their religion (ie. "recruiting" in some cases), etc... I dont do any of that, and Buddhists usually dont. Its something that is not emphasized in its teachings. Its more like "live the way you want so that you will be happy as well as others around you"

now, dont take me as the definitve authority on Buddhism, but thats my personal take on it, and how it "compares" to other religions (as that is what many of you are asking for)

oh, and apologies if i dont make any sense.. :o

[Ladogaboy]

Well, I do and I don't agree with chosen, but I definitely DON'T agree with this:


Originally posted by CornMonkey
buddhism seemed to be very "self" motivated.

In fact, in my opinion, nothing could be further from the truth. Buddhism can't be "'self' motivate" simply because the goal of Buddhism is the elimination of self. To be one with the Universe and everything, you must give up the idea that you are an individual. You must give up the you, if that makes any sense at all.

Buddhism, as a whole, strives to eliminate pain, and suffering. According to Buddhism, all suffering is caused by unfulfilled desires. If you can eliminate the desire, you can eliminate all suffering. Basically, if you can come to terms with the fact that nothing really matters, you will no longer feel pain.

Of course, these are just some of the basic precepts, and there are many forms of Buddhism. Like chosen said, if you want to know more, you should really read up on it, but go in with as open of a mind as possible. Also, since you are Christian, if you go in with an unbaised perspective, you might start to notice A LOT of similarities between Jesus and his beliefs and Buddha and Buddhist beliefs.

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by chosenfool
anyways, thanks for the correction there, Ladogaboy! :thumb:

NP... you were pretty much right on anyway...

Of course, you reminded me: I have to go read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance... That is, after I finish deciding whether Ayn Rand is crack-pot, Tailgunner Joe's sister, some sort of sage, or just a combination of those things...

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by chosenfool
heh, Ayn Rand... i read fountainhead - its uhm, cute. i found it kinda overly dramatic, but hey, i guess in her time she was hailed as a messiah of sorts (and actually had a cult following then).

i like her laissez faire attitude that she teaches. one thing i found out on my own, and im glad im not the only one who shares this POV (heh, its been there for over 50 yrs) :)

Yeah, my high school English teacher used to harp on Ayn Rand all the time... "Oh, she's the greatest." "If you ever get a chance, read one of her books." I think that the only reason my teacher liked her so much was because she was the one of the only prominent female writers of the time. :shrug:

Anyway, I just finished Anthem, and I am now working my way through Fountainhead. I think that some of her views have merit, but she goes too far. It is almost as though she feels that it is necessary for one to completely give up one's goals, wants, and needs in order to fit in and serve society. I can't say I agree, but I have to give her the benefit of the doubt--she might just tend towards the melodramatic.

[faither]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by latingirl
I actually don't consider myself religious, I consider myself having a relationship with God and therefore I follow his precepts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Dictionary.com...

re·li·gious Pronunciation Key (r-ljs)
adj.
1. Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.
2. Of, concerned with, or teaching religion: a religious text.
3. Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.

I guess you don't have to comply with the conventional definition of words but it's pretty straight-forward. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck, it's probably a duck. You can call it a moose but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone that would understand with your assessment. While I don't totally agree with Slaw's analogy, he was on the right track.

[Freelance Superhero]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
Buddhism, as a whole, strives to eliminate pain, and suffering. According to Buddhism, all suffering is caused by unfulfilled desires. If you can eliminate the desire, you can eliminate all suffering. Basically, if you can come to terms with the fact that nothing really matters, you will no longer feel pain.
now, i understand that these are real general comments, and i'm just playin devil's advocate here, but how does one go about eliminating said desires? if "suffering is caused by unfulfilled desires," the logical solution would be to fulfill those desires in order to curb suffering, right? by many standards, that would be defined as being self-indulgent, and therefore the opposite of denying the existence of self.

of course, this all hinges, again, on HOW exactly one "comes to terms with the fact that nothing really matters" so that one "will no longer feel pain."

i'm just throwin out some random thoughts here.;)

[mojo]

Originally posted by faither
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by latingirl
I actually don't consider myself religious, I consider myself having a relationship with God and therefore I follow his precepts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Dictionary.com...

re·li·gious Pronunciation Key (r-ljs)
adj.
1. Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.
2. Of, concerned with, or teaching religion: a religious text.
3. Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.

I guess you don't have to comply with the conventional definition of words but it's pretty straight-forward. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck, it's probably a duck. You can call it a moose but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone that would understand with your assessment. While I don't totally agree with Slaw's analogy, he was on the right track. well, she already got a bunch of that from everywhere. then of course she replied with
originally posted by latingirl
Thanks, Chosen...YOU are usually the voice of reason...:Dwhich pretty much means that he is the voice of reason because she thought everyone else was bashing her. of course, nobody bashed her, but maybe it was her disposition for some reason :hmm:

at any rate, i agreed with chosen pretty much. of course i'd do more reading than just those recommended books, otherwise you'd end up with just chosen's recommendations (while they may be good, it would still be from his point of view and others may vary).

and yes, latingirl is religious. sorry to break it to you, latingirl...but you bring up God and religion in threads. and i don't mean you bring up God and religion in ways that reflect that you're not religious. you bring up God and religion in religious ways...like "dig this message of God" and "God is cool like this" kind of thing. that's not bad, but it's also not "not religious."

maybe you're not a "bible thumper"...if that helps.

[WhiskeyPapa]

I think you are having this disagreement about the term "religious" from two totally different points of view, and that's why it has turned somewhat argumentative. Maybe I can clear it up (or muddy it up, we'll see...)

Among some denominations in Christianity, (typically the Charismatic or Pentecostal flavor) the term "religious" is thrown around almost as an insult. It suggests a devotion to a system of belief, a denomination, or a specific religion. Whereas I would rather consider my relationship with God through Christ above that. Meaning I don't have to find God in a specific church or through a specific denomination. Why do I go to church then? Because that's where all the Christians are! :) (Fellowship is a big part of Christianity.)

When someone from outside Christianity (or outside the Charismatic/Pentecostal denominations) asks if I'm "religious", I'll say "yes", because I know they're just asking if I attend church, or if I take my faith seriously. If someone within my fellowship asks if I'm religious, usually they're trying to point out that I'm putting tradition and man-made rules above God.

If latingirl asked if I was religious, I'd probably answer no. If cloeslaw asked if I was religious, I'd probably answer yes. And I wouldn't be lying to either one, because they are actually asking two different questions.

So, both coleslaw and latingirl are correct, from their point of view.

Chosenfool (or anyone else who would care to answer), if Buddhism has no deity, are there Buddhist "gods"?

[CornMonkey]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
Well, I do and I don't agree with chosen, but I definitely DON'T agree with this:



In fact, in my opinion, nothing could be further from the truth. Buddhism can't be "'self' motivate" simply because the goal of Buddhism is the elimination of self. To be one with the Universe and everything, you must give up the idea that you are an individual. You must give up the you, if that makes any sense at all.

Buddhism, as a whole, strives to eliminate pain, and suffering. According to Buddhism, all suffering is caused by unfulfilled desires. If you can eliminate the desire, you can eliminate all suffering. Basically, if you can come to terms with the fact that nothing really matters, you will no longer feel pain.

Of course, these are just some of the basic precepts, and there are many forms of Buddhism. Like chosen said, if you want to know more, you should really read up on it, but go in with as open of a mind as possible. Also, since you are Christian, if you go in with an unbaised perspective, you might start to notice A LOT of similarities between Jesus and his beliefs and Buddha and Buddhist beliefs.

tell me this.. how does one achieve enlightenment and what happens after that?

[Jihforce]

Wow, looks like I joined the party a tad late huh? :D

I'm still trying to take in all of the comments being said here in regards to Buddhism.

I would like to point out that much like Christianity, Buddhism covers many different areas. (ie, Zen, Shinto, etc...)
Each is similar (yet different) in many ways. I cannot really tell you about "Shinto" Buddhism because I do not know the fundamentals of that belief. Also, keep in mind that Buddhism's roots come from India and as the philosophy/religion spread, it merged with other philosophies (such as Taoism in China). If you would like to read up more on its Historical Origin in a not so philosophical way, pick up Siddhartha by Herman Hesse. This is a novel, but is well written. Like all books, take it with a grain of salt.
Anyway, as far as philosophies, yes you need to pick up a few books on that. Maybe visit your local Buddhist Temple and spend soem time with a monk. If you are in the LA area, there's one in Hacienda Heights. Its the largest temple in the Western Hemisphere (I think). So its worth visiting. Its beautiful. If you walk thru the self guided tours, you'll begin to understand how closely it resembles Christianity. (they do a lot of comparing and contrasting between the two).
What Ladogaboy & chosen have said basically covers the general essense and core of Buddhism. I'd repeat it but it will sound redundant.
Check out this link to get a general idea of what Buddhism is about. By no means it is something to strictly go by, but is does a decent job giving you some historical background for quick reference.

http://www.easternreligions.com/bframe.html

to check out the temple in LA:

http://www.hsilai.org/

Lets see, about Cornmonkey's comment. I can see where you're comming about the "self" motivation. Buddhism is centered on the "self" as in better yourself thru meditation. Lets say for example you sinned, what you would do is meditate on that and reflect on the whys, whats & hows that made you do what you did. Then once you know, you won't do it again (hopefully). A lot of it is common sense. Its relying in oneself to eliminate those things that cause pain and suffering in your life. Unlike Christianity, were a 3rd "person" is used to attain the same goal.

To answer kb0wwp about Buddhist "gods". Technically, Buddhist figures such as Siddhartha, Amitabha & Kwan-Yin are considered Saints or Boddhisatvas as we call them. However, many Buddhists do worship them as gods.

Hope this sheds some light for some of you guys.

A little background on me. In case anyone wants to critize me. :P

Brought up as Buddhist but wasn't into worshipping the deities like my folks did while I was younger. I mean, how can you worship someone you don't know about right? My mom didnt really shed any light on their history. Besides, she mainly followed Kwan-Yin & Amidabha so I felt kinda clueless. So as I grew up, I was heavily influence by Christianity. I went to a Franciscan private school in South American for 7 years. Then 4 years of college at my alma matter Univesity of San Diego, which is a Catholic school. Used to be an all-girl school until the 60s i believe. That's were all the rich folks send their daughters. Go figure. Studied religion for about 2 years. (requirement) But I chose a wide variety of religions. I didn't want to focus only on Christianity only so I read up on many religions. Learned about Latino Catholicism, Santeria, Voodoo, Buddhism, Hindu, etc... Have yet to learn about Islam so hopefully Hapoo will start a thread and enlighten me :) Judaism would be intersting to learn too. So please share. Oh, my family is very diverse too. My mom is Buddhist, so's my dad but non-practicing. My older sister is Buddhist as well, my 2nd sister is Mormon, 3rd one is "technically" Catholic. I say techincally because she's not baptized. And me of course, I'm Buddhist. :D

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by Freelance Superhero

now, i understand that these are real general comments, and i'm just playin devil's advocate here, but how does one go about eliminating said desires? if "suffering is caused by unfulfilled desires," the logical solution would be to fulfill those desires in order to curb suffering, right? by many standards, that would be defined as being self-indulgent, and therefore the opposite of denying the existence of self.

of course, this all hinges, again, on HOW exactly one "comes to terms with the fact that nothing really matters" so that one "will no longer feel pain."

i'm just throwin out some random thoughts here.;)

There are a few analogies I am trying to think of, but basically, when you eliminate the desire, you eliminate it completely. What you are talking about is indulging your desires. The problem with indulging your desires is that you are attacking the symptoms, not the cause--much like our modern medicine does. To give you the best analogy I can think of... Say you are hungry. You can do one of two things to fix that: eat; or eliminate your desire to eat. If you do the former, you will only cure the symptom, not the cause, so your relief is only temporary. If you do the latter, and eliminate all your desires to eat, you have eliminated your suffering permanently by attacking the root cause. Does that make sense?

So, ultimately, in order to relieve all suffering, you must eventually eliminate your "self". Your "self" is the root of all desires, so if you can remove your "self", you can remove the cause of all desires as well as all pain/suffering.

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by CornMonkey
tell me this.. how does one achieve enlightenment


How the hell should I know?



Originally posted by CornMonkey
and what happens after that?

Read my sig. ;)

*Note. My sig comes from a Zen Buddhist's perspective, so not all schools of Buddhist thought would agree with it.

[Freelance Superhero]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
...Say you are hungry. You can do one of two things to fix that: eat; or eliminate your desire to eat. If you do the former, you will only cure the symptom, not the cause, so your relief is only temporary. If you do the latter, and eliminate all your desires to eat, you have eliminated your suffering permanently by attacking the root cause. Does that make sense?logically, it makes sense, but it leads me to ask, how do you "eliminate" a desire (the desire for food, for example)? what does this "elimination" process entail?

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by Freelance Superhero
what does this "elimination" process entail?

Nothing. :shrug:

[mojo]

Originally posted by Freelance Superhero
logically, it makes sense, but it leads me to ask, how do you "eliminate" a desire (the desire for food, for example)? what does this "elimination" process entail? maybe it wasn't a solid analogy (no pun intended). or maybe it can be thought of as the desire=want...so the desire for particulars could go away, and the need would remain. that would save on the red lobster bill. or maybe it could be thought of like how those masters do that bit where they make their bodies go without stuff for extended periods of time. you know they can slow their breathing and stuff, so why not make their bodies go without food for longer?

at any rate, i can see how desiring stuff can lead to stuff...if that helps :hmm:


(edit: this is my post #5150- the van halen post :P )

[Freelance Superhero]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy


Nothing. :shrug: yeesss yes, this seems to be at the core of buddhist thinking...

[blackberrybunny]

Hello all. First off, let me apologize for my delay in getting to this thread. Have been so busy, you guys know how it is........ I bet you were all wondering what happened to me??

Wow---so many good answers here. Thank you, everyone, for your information, thoughts, opinions....

Where to start?? Many good points were made. Let me just ramble for a sec here.....

Buddhism isn't really a "religion" since there is NO deity that is looked upon as "God." Which makes Buddhism, in essence, more of a philogophy, rather than a religion. A long time ago, I went to Barnes & Noble to look for a book about Buddhism in the religion section. I became very frustrated, finding nothing. The store clerk then told me all of the books on Buddhism were kept in the Philosophy section! I had no clue........

Like stated earlier, we do look to Bodhisattvas for inspiration. And the Buddha---the one who started it all, was an Indian prince, named Siddharta Gautama. The story is very long, too long to write here.

And yes, Buddhism is about letting go of the notion of the 'self.' To let go is to become 'no-thing.' It means that you realize, basically, that you are just like everyone and everything else------you are IMPERMANENT. One key lesson: Everything CHANGES. EVERYTHING.

Now, before I confuse everyone, hahaha, here is a quick highlight about Buddhism.

We follow the teachings of the Four Noble Truths which state:

1. Life means suffering.
2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.
4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

The path to the cessation of suffering is acquired by following the Noble Eightfold Path:

1. Right View
2. Right Intentions
3. Right Actions
4. Right Speech
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfullness
8. Right Concentration

..............What these mean is simple: do the Right things, the Right ways, with Right good intentions, and you will be on your way to achieving happiness for yourself and for others.



We strive to make others happy. This includes not just humans, but also animals.

Meditation is a KEY factor here. Lots and lots of hours of meditation. I could write a novel just on that subject, hahaha, but the purpose of meditation is to gain control of one's mind, so we can be more focused, so we CAN do the right things in this life.

Ah, one question I don't think I saw asked was about rebirth/reincarnation. Some Buddhists believe in a form of rebirth, but not the same way as many Christians believe. Some Buddhists DON'T believe in it. It is a matter of personal ideas, I think. I believe in a form which states that a body dies and becomes a part of this earth, to become parts of other parts of this earth, such as plants, animals, etc..... it's all on a molecular level.

Before I go further and REALLY confuse everyone, let me just say that Buddhism is about GOOD things. It is about giving yourself up completely to others. It is not easy to do that! I have a LONG way to go, myself!

The teachings of Buddha and Jesus are very similar. There have been a lot of good books written about how similar they are. Although we don't believe in "GOD" we DO acknowledge the teachings of Jesus, because they are GOOD, wholesome, truthful. I believe Jesus really existed, and what he taught was meant to bring happiness to others. He and Buddha listed guidelines for living a good wholesome life. Because Buddha was born about 500 years BEFORE Christ, some people would even say that Christ followed the teachings of Buddha! Some people would argue he himself was a Buddhist, but didn't know it! (I won't even TRY to approach this subject further, hahahah!) Don't want to start a war here! ;)

Thich Nhat Hanh is a Buddhist/Christian monk who is the author of lots of great books, and he has written one about Buddha and Jesus as being very brotherly in their principles. You should check it out, if you are intersted in reading on this topic.

Okay, well that is a little more info for you all. I have left out TONS of stuff, as you can imagine. How does one become enlightened? They say if you follow the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path completely, with a lot of meditating, you might become enlightened. If you DO become enlightened, you have reached Nirvana. Which means no more rebirths for you-----you have reached the 'top' in essence. It is all so complicated........

I wanted to point out that I have studied many different religions, in college, and in my own personal time. I have delved into Pagainism, Wicca, and to the extreme, Satanism. LaVeyan Satanism, not that foolish "Devil crap" out there. If anyone has read up on what LaVey wrote, you would know what I am referring to----- this type of Satanism is all about selfish motives. While it isn't for me, I did want to learn about it, so I would not be biased about it. I think it is good to educate oneself about all types of religions and philosophies, so you can learn, expand your mind, and be a good person.

Thank you all, for your posts. LatinGirl, what do you think? Have we 'enlightened' you a little bit about Buddhism? Do you think Christians and Buddhists can live in harmony and respect each other's views and paths? I believe it is so. I very much respect Christians, because TRUE Christians are out to do the RIGHT things in life, just like Buddhists are. We just go about it in different ways. We are more about meditation, and cessation, but when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, no matter WHAT religion you follow, we all want the same thing in life: HAPPINESS.

If you want to learn more about this, read some of the books written by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Then pick up some of Thich's books, OR some of Sylvia Boorstein's books---she is a woman who follows the path of Judaism and Buddhism, showing how they can live in harmony with each other.

Thank you, everone. I hope I was able to answer some questions and to give some info here.

:)

[attgig]

Originally posted by CornMonkey
i'm a christian. my mom's a buddhist. that's why i took a couple courses at ucla about buddhism. basically, in a nutshell, what chosenfool said in the 2nd post of this thread sums up buddhism.

to me, buddhist goals didn't give me that sense of hope that christianity does. buddhism seemed to be very "self" motivated.

so, does buddhism give any background as to how we all came to be here?
as in creationism? evolution?
if evolution, why spirituality at all???

[attgig]

Originally posted by blackberrybunny
And yes, Buddhism is about letting go of the notion of the 'self.' To let go is to become 'no-thing.' It means that you realize, basically, that you are just like everyone and everything else------you are IMPERMANENT. One key lesson: Everything CHANGES. EVERYTHING.
<snip>

The teachings of Buddha and Jesus are very similar.
<snip>
Don't want to start a war here! ;) i hope i don't start one either
<snip>
Okay, well that is a little more info for you all. I have left out TONS of stuff, as you can imagine. How does one become enlightened? They say if you follow the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path completely, with a lot of meditating, you might become enlightened. If you DO become enlightened, you have reached Nirvana. Which means no more rebirths for you-----you have reached the 'top' in essence. It is all so complicated........
<snip>
:)

ok, so....
about Buddhism and Christianity being similar in teachings....
i think MOST people nowadays say all religions are about good stuff, and they all have the golden rule in there...they're very similar...
and from that first comment i quoted u on there....
I think, hey that's kinda like Christianity. letting go of yourself, and your selfish desires. although not quite 100% on the impermanent thing (yeah, our flesh is impermanent, but there is eternity, etc)

but then, you go on to say how you practice buddhism, and THIS is where I believe Christianity and buddhism differ(and the whole religion vs. relationship debate can kinda go along here too).
With most world wide religions, you must follow a certain set of laws or dogma in order to "go up the spiritual ladder" so to speak. The better you follow the set rules, the "better" buddhist (or whatever religion) you are. Where as Christianity, the focus is on relationship with a real and living God. So there are no requirements to follow certain laws to get closer with God. It's you get closer to God - and because you start getting closer and spend more time with God, you naturally become more like Him. subtle difference. If you're just a casual observer, it'll seem like Christians are just trying to follow christian dogma - and it'll look no different from the outside. However, it makes a world of difference when you live from the inside out.

[jase71]

Originally posted by attgig



With most world wide religions, you must follow a certain set of laws or dogma in order to "go up the spiritual ladder" so to speak. The better you follow the set rules, the "better" buddhist (or whatever religion) you are. Where as Christianity, the focus is on relationship with a real and living God. So there are no requirements to follow certain laws to get closer with God.

From an outsider's perspective, I'd see the 4 Truths and the Path as something akin to the 10 Commandments. A guide to live by, and follow. Just as Christians attempt to follow the Commandments in their daily lives as a guide to serving God and following his will, the Path is the equivalent for Buddhists seeking enlightenment. Not so much strict dogma to follow as a signpost pointing out the way.

[CornMonkey]

Originally posted by attgig


so, does buddhism give any background as to how we all came to be here?
as in creationism? evolution?
if evolution, why spirituality at all???

from what i remember, there was no "Creator." there is no beginning nor an end...but life on earth began. hmm...actually, not that i think about it, i musta skipped that lecture. :P

and thanks jihforce for the explanation of the "self." i didn't mean it in a way to imply that buddhist doctrine is selfish but, rather, lacks the inclusion of the others in the path to nirvana, enlightenment, etc. to me, the buddhist path is a very lonely one. i dunno...maybe the G|A buddhists can prove me wrong on this.

all in all, yes, buddhism and christianity has a lot of similarities. but you can say that about any two religions or beliefs in the world. and yes, my mom has told me numerous times that Jesus was a buddhist too. i always have a good laugh listening to her...:)

[whitak24]

ok, to start off, i have to argue over this point:

Originally posted by coleslaw
Let's say for example that I claim that being a Democrat means that someone participates in a democratic goverment. By this definition, everyone that has ever voted in the United States would be considered a Democrat. I could have voted for a ticket that was entirely Republican-based, yet I still claim to be a Democrat based upon my own definition. I could go around telling people that I don't consider myself to be a Republican, yet when they find out that I voted exclusively for Republican officials, they would claim that I was a hypocrite.

this has nothing to do with the rest of the thread or with the debate over wheather one should be classified as "religious" or not.

however, just because someone votes for people of a certain party does not mean that they are members of that party. if people vote for candidates on an individual basis, choosing which candidates they most agree with, then they are not pledging devotion to and membership in the party that those candidates represent. they are simply saying that those candidates are who they want representing them. one could even say that they "typically VOTE Republican" that's quite different than saying they ARE a Republican, implying that they endorse the views and motives held by the party.

anyway.... that was a tangent.

as far as buddhism vs. christianity.....

obviously, a lot has been said here. i don't consider myself an expert on christianity (although i do practice it. one could even argue that i'm "religious", depending on how you define "religious" :P). and i'm only somewhat knowledgeable about the beliefs of buddhism.

several people have pointed out the similarities between the Noble Eightfold Path and Christian teachings, as articulated by Jesus and recorded in the Gospels. there are similarities. but there is ONE major difference that makes Buddhist thought completely incompatible with Christianity. (disclaimer: when i speak of "Christianity", i speak of my understanding of the subject. whenever you see the word "Christianity" used below, you can substitute "whitak's conception of what Christians think/whitak's conception of what the Bible says".)

Buddhist thought (as i understand it from the presentation here), is about doing the right thing -- by yourself and within yourself. Christian thought (as i practice it) is about giving yourself over to God so that he can enable you to do the right thing.

According to the Bible, no human is righteous (that is, doing and thinking the right things). none of us can really be "good" in and of ourselves. we can try, and some of us can do many good things, but we will never truly be "good". Only though asking God to come into our lives and take control of our thoughts and our actions can we really be "good" and live the kind of lives we are supposed to.

On the other hand, as I understand it, Buddhism asks us to look within ourselves to find the power to do right. as BBB said,

do the Right things, the Right ways, with Right good intentions, and you will be on your way to achieving happiness for yourself and for others.

Meditation is a KEY factor here.... The purpose of meditation is to gain control of one's mind, so we can be more focused, so we CAN do the right things in this life.
according to Christianity, no matter how focused we are; no matter how much control we have over our minds, we can never truly do what God wants us to do, because it's still "us" in control, not God.

in fact, according to Christian thought, "sin" or "evil" started from selfishness (a focus on ones self). basically, Lucifer (soon to become satan) rebelled against God because he was focusing on himself. According to Isaiah 14:13-14 (NIV), Lucifer said "I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." This desire to become greater than God and to try to take God's place were what caused the first sin in the universe, and what has led to the suffering and problems we see in our world today.

consequently, from a Christian perspective, the tenants of Buddhism, although admirable in many ways, can never be fully endorsed. why? at its root, Buddhism seems to be about cutting God out of the picture and trying to make things better ourselves, which is always going to be futile.


ok, so in my opinion, that's why, no matter how much Christians "read" or "learn" about Buddhism, they are never going to accept it or endorse it at "truth" on a personal level.

but that doesn't mean we can't get along or that i do not respect the beliefs or Buddhists. basically, when i say that Christianity and Buddhism are fundamentally incompatible, i'm saying that from the standpoint that as a Christian, I can't accept Buddhist principles as governing principles for my life. but i think that as far as beliefs go, Buddhist beliefs are good.

Anybody who is trying to do good, is trying to make others happy, and is trying to bring peace is a positive asset to our society. and while i would argue about whether Buddhism can bring true, eternal happiness, i definitely think that its adherents can have much happiness in their lives (i believe that whenever people are concerned about others and try to make life better for everyone, they will be happier and have greater peace than those consumed by greed).

I am more than happy to live at peace and with good cheer with Buddhists or anyone else who has the goal of making our world a better place. and if we can work together toward that objective, then that's even better. just because we have differing reasoning behind our goals does not mean that we can't achieve those objectives together.



ok, i'm not sure, but i think this is my longest post ever here :P

[WhiskeyPapa]

Originally posted by blackberrybunny
Hello all.
<snip>
Thanks blackberrybunny, for you thoughtful response to latingirl's question. I know WAY more about Buddhism now than I did before.

One comment you made gave me pause...


Originally posted by blackberrybunny
Although we don't believe in "GOD" we DO acknowledge the teachings of Jesus, because they are GOOD, wholesome, truthful. I believe Jesus really existed, and what he taught was meant to bring happiness to others.
The only authoritative record we have of Jesus' life and teaching is the New Testamnet, mainly the four Gospel books. In them Jesus claimed (in no uncertain terms) that He IS God, and that only by faith in Him can we achieve eternal life, nirvana, or whatever you want to call it.

Does that mean that Buddhists acknowledge 'most' of the teachings of Jesus, ignoring the parts in which He claims His deity? Since Buddhism is not really a religion, is it possible for someone to have faith in the saving grace of Christ, yet still follow the tenets of Buddhism?

Although my questions may sound argumentative, they're not meant to be. I just want to know more!

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by kb0wwp
The only authoritative record we have of Jesus' life and teaching is the New Testamnet, mainly the four Gospel books. In them Jesus claimed (in no uncertain terms) that He IS God, and that only by faith in Him can we achieve eternal life, nirvana, or whatever you want to call it.

Does that mean that Buddhists acknowledge 'most' of the teachings of Jesus, ignoring the parts in which He claims His deity? Since Buddhism is not really a religion, is it possible for someone to have faith in the saving grace of Christ, yet still follow the tenets of Buddhism?

Although my questions may sound argumentative, they're not meant to be. I just want to know more!

I actually wanted to make a comment on everyone but I thought I'd get to this one first because you brought up a very interesting point.
Now this is my interpretation. Buddhism doesn't have solid rules about other religions. Just because you follow the way of the Buddha, doesn't mean that you cannot acknowledge Jesus' and God's existance. I see Buddhism as a guide to living a happy life. One that makes people around use happy as well. To some it is a religion to others it is more of a philosophy. We can get into technical words here but the bottom line is whatever it means to you, that's what it is. I personally see it as both. I see Buddha as my teacher. I try my best to follow his example. That's the best I can do. This concept isn't that much different that other religions either. Which is why, when I was at a Buddhist temple, a monk to me that it is ok to go to a church an attend their sermons, they all have valuable things to teach us.
In regards to Buddhism only acknowleging "most" of Jesus' teachings. I think Buddhist only acknowledge his "teachings" not his "statements/claims".
Hope this helps clarify a few things.
I'm sure BBBunny can share more of his insight in regards to this.

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by CornMonkey


from what i remember, there was no "Creator." there is no beginning nor an end...but life on earth began. hmm...actually, not that i think about it, i musta skipped that lecture. :P

and thanks jihforce for the explanation of the "self." i didn't mean it in a way to imply that buddhist doctrine is selfish but, rather, lacks the inclusion of the others in the path to nirvana, enlightenment, etc. to me, the buddhist path is a very lonely one. i dunno...maybe the G|A buddhists can prove me wrong on this.

all in all, yes, buddhism and christianity has a lot of similarities. but you can say that about any two religions or beliefs in the world. and yes, my mom has told me numerous times that Jesus was a buddhist too. I always have a good laugh listening to her...:)

Sure no problem :)

From my understanding, there isn't a concept of a creator. Its kind of like the whole "chicken or the egg thing". To some, it's important to have that reassurance and to know how the world began. To others, it not all that significant.

I don't know what you mean by inclusion of others into the path of nirvana. Do mean that we aren't encouraged to help others reach enlightenment? or do u mean that only Buddhists can reach nirvana? I don't see why you feel the buddhist path is lonely? is it because we don't have a god as spiritual support in our journey of life?
Sorta confused here.

I think your mom may have a point. By Buddhist standards, Jesus could have been considered a Buddhist. But then again, it's open to interpretation. :)

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by kb0wwp
In them Jesus claimed (in no uncertain terms) that He IS God, and that only by faith in Him can we achieve eternal life, nirvana, or whatever you want to call it.

I must have missed that part when I read the Bible. :confused: If anything, that is just what a bunch of people assumed he meant.

Oh, and whitak24, there is another BIG difference between all Western thinking and Buddhism. In Buddhism, people are nothing more than the sum of their experiences... in Christianity and other Western religions, there is always some central core. To use another analogy, according to Buddhism, people are like an onion. According to Christianity, people are like an artichoke. If you start peeling the onion back, layer by layer, you eventually peel until there is nothing left. If you start peeling an artichoke, layer by layer, you eventually get to the heart which is kind of like the essence of the artichoke.

Oh, and blackberrybunny, thank you for your thorough explanation. One thing I would like to point out, though. Not all Buddhists follow the 4 Noble Truths and the 8 Fold Path. ;) And while there are many similarities between Buddhism and Christianity, I don't think that they can ever be compatable. This is not to say that Buddhists and Christians can't get along--because I think they can get along very well together, but the relationship would work something like this: Christians would be forced to accept Buddhists because their doctrines tell them to, but they would still try to convert the Buddhists as much as possible; and the Buddhists would accept the Christians simply because they accept everything in life.

That's my take on it, anyway.

[attgig]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
I must have missed that part when I read the Bible. :confused: If anything, that is just what a bunch of people assumed he meant.


John 4
25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

Samaritan Woman story (http://www.biblegateway.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+4&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
there's a few other times where he says, I'm the messiah.

[CornMonkey]

Originally posted by Jihforce


I don't know what you mean by inclusion of others into the path of nirvana. Do mean that we aren't encouraged to help others reach enlightenment? or do u mean that only Buddhists can reach nirvana? I don't see why you feel the buddhist path is lonely? is it because we don't have a god as spiritual support in our journey of life?
Sorta confused here.

I think your mom may have a point. By Buddhist standards, Jesus could have been considered a Buddhist. But then again, it's open to interpretation. :)

more specifically, how do other buddhists help one another out in attaining enlightenment, if ever? or is this path only exclusive to the individual under his/her own precepts? is it a one-man journey or can people reach nirvana together?

i ask this because under the christian belief, the bible tells us the benefits of being in a "fellowship of believers." it's hard to follow in God's footsteps, and that's why a christian needs accountability and encouragement. i guess i'm just wondering if buddhism has the same sort of thing. if so, i just want my mom to be a part of something like that.

[johnnymk]

Jesus never mentioned Buddha when he was here; therefore, he is irrelevant and in no way compares to Jesus.
By the way, since Jesus is God, he made Buddha.

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" John 1,3

[latingirl]

Ahhhh...NOW I'm in the right thread...

WOW! A LOT of good and interesting stuff here. I'm actually printing this out (22 pages!!) to read and I'll probably have a response for you (BBBunny :) ) over the weekend.

Thank you guys for sharing!

LG

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by attgig


John 4
25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

Samaritan Woman story (http://www.biblegateway.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+4&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
there's a few other times where he says, I'm the messiah.

Hmmm...explain to me one thing if you could. What IS the Messiah? From my understanding, the Messiah, is a messenger, not God. Is that assumption wrong? Care to elaborate?

To answer Cornmonkey's question. The answer would be a yes and a no. You see, I can't yes because recruiting people to follow God's path isn't something that is asked to do. On the same token, I can't say that that's not the case because the Buddhist community is very supportive when it comes to helping folks reach inner peach and follow the path of enlightenment. However, that is something a person needs to take initiative on. Its almost like a "in order to help others, they need to help themselves first". Hope that sheds some light.

Also, keep in mind that Nirvana can be attained by ANYONE. The only requirements are to follow the Eightfold. You can be of any religion, follow the Eightfold and reach Nirvana. There's no written rule that says that's not possible. That, by definition, makes you a Buddhist.

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by johnnymk
Jesus never mentioned Buddha when he was here; therefore, he is irrelevant and in no way compares to Jesus.
By the way, since Jesus is God, he made Buddha.

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" John 1,3

According to your God, He may very well have created Buddha, but that is irrelevant because since its not written in our texts, it isn't true. Also, there's no mention of God in our texts either, nor was God ever mentioned in texts relating to Siddartha's life. So I guess God is irrelevant.
See my point? I'm not trying to disrepect you and your religion in anyway. However, the statement you made is very similar to that one I just made. If you find it close-minded, or perhaps offensive. Then, you can understand how I feel when you made that comment.

Keep this in mind, the Bible is now law, nor is it fact for those who aren't Christian. To us, its just another religious text. I can see you have a lot of respect for other people's religion. :hmm:

[latingirl]

Originally posted by Jihforce


Hmmm...explain to me one thing if you could. What IS the Messiah? From my understanding, the Messiah, is a messenger, not God. Is that assumption wrong? Care to elaborate?



Briefly...this is the very same Messiah that the Jews are still waiting for. Although, they never accepted Jesus as the Messiah, they are still waiting for him. Although, Jesus birth, death and resurrection fulfilled all of the prophecies of the Major Prophets (Old Testament - Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc).

I believe this is Orthodox Judaism. There are "sects" that don't follow Judaism to this point (waiting for messiah, etc).

I personally believe Christianity is Judaism in its completion.

More to come....

[mojo]

Originally posted by latingirl


Briefly...this is the very same Messiah that the Jews are still waiting for. Although, they never accepted Jesus as the Messiah, they are still waiting for him. Although, Jesus birth, death and resurrection fulfilled all of the prophecies of the Major Prophets (Old Testament - Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc).

I believe this is Orthodox Judaism. There are "sects" that don't follow Judaism to this point (waiting for messiah, etc).

I personally believe Christianity is Judaism in its completion.

More to come.... see, the belief is the trick here. they're still waiting because they didn't believe he actually fulfilled the prophecies.

so did he? i don't know. i don't have any proof either way. it's all faith from there.

from the jewish standpoint, it would be more fair to say that jesus allegedly fulfilled the prophecies.

[latingirl]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy


There are a few analogies I am trying to think of, but basically, when you eliminate the desire, you eliminate it completely. What you are talking about is indulging your desires. The problem with indulging your desires is that you are attacking the symptoms, not the cause--much like our modern medicine does. To give you the best analogy I can think of... Say you are hungry. You can do one of two things to fix that: eat; or eliminate your desire to eat. If you do the former, you will only cure the symptom, not the cause, so your relief is only temporary. If you do the latter, and eliminate all your desires to eat, you have eliminated your suffering permanently by attacking the root cause. Does that make sense?

So, ultimately, in order to relieve all suffering, you must eventually eliminate your "self". Your "self" is the root of all desires, so if you can remove your "self", you can remove the cause of all desires as well as all pain/suffering.

It makes sense, but in that context, it doesn't seem very realistic.

[latingirl]

Originally posted by mojo
see, the belief is the trick here. they're still waiting because they didn't believe he actually fulfilled the prophecies.

so did he? i don't know. i don't have any proof either way. it's all faith from there.

from the jewish standpoint, it would be more fair to say that jesus allegedly fulfilled the prophecies.

I can go with that and take it one step further, to them He "did not" fullfill the prophesies nor did He meet the "description" (desc based on Isaiah...uh, forgot the scripture reference) of who they were/are waiting upon.

That never made any sense to me because when I read many of the prophetic verses, He does fit what I read.

Also keep in mind that there are many jews (or messianic jews) who have "converted" because they do believe and found Him to be the Messiah.

[mojo]

Originally posted by latingirl


I can go with that and take it one step further, to them He "did not" fullfill the prophesies nor did He meet the "description" (desc based on Isaiah...uh, forgot the scripture reference) of who they were/are waiting upon.

That never made any sense to me because when I read many of the prophetic verses, He does fit what I read.

Also keep in mind that there are many jews (or messianic jews) who have "converted" because they do believe and found Him to be the Messiah. what we read is mostly what the people that wrote it want us to believe. also balance that the stuff was written by people...and that people have an agenda...you have built-in deniability.

when you rely on just believing something, it makes your belief no more worthy than the next person's, really. if you have stuff to back it up, so much the better. but if they have stuff to that denies your evidence, then it's all the same.

flagrant stuff notwithstanding, of course.

but if one were to want to convert me from, say...wicca...then what would the logic be? what would compel me to believe that all this is true as opposed to my beliefs that are already in place as to the goddess and such?

[latingirl]

Originally posted by attgig


so, does buddhism give any background as to how we all came to be here?
as in creationism? evolution?
if evolution, why spirituality at all???

Ahhh, the creation vs. evolution debate. THAT would be a good one.
:D

Though I think we have enough right now with the Buddhism/Christianity discussion. ;)


BTW, what does Buddhism teach with regards to origin of life?

[latingirl]

Originally posted by mojo
when you rely on just believing something, it makes your belief no more worthy than the next person's, really. if you have stuff to back it up, so much the better. but if they have stuff to that denies your evidence, then it's all the same.

flagrant stuff notwithstanding, of course.

but if one were to want to convert me from, say...wicca...then what would the logic be? what would compel me to believe that all this is true as opposed to my beliefs that are already in place as to the goddess and such?

That's where "relationship" comes in, I'll explain later (I REALLY got to get back to work now).

Dang, I WISH today was Saturday.

[mojo]

Originally posted by latingirl


That's where "relationship" comes in, I'll explain later (I REALLY got to get back to work now).

Dang, I WISH today was Saturday. let's just hope your explanation doesn't say that your relationship is stronger than theirs with their deities :P

not saying that you'd say that...but some people would. it really presumes a lot.

[CornMonkey]

Originally posted by latingirl


Ahhh, the creation vs. evolution debate. THAT would be a good one.
:D



http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=7037&highlight=christianity+debate
warning: really old thread

been there, done that...;)

[johnnymk]

How can you have a relationship with someone who is dead? All of the other teachers, prophets, etc. are dead now, awaiting their eternal destiny during the future Great White Throne Judgement.
After Jesus' death and resurrection, he went back to Heaven to intercede for his believers. Through the Holy Spirit, which he gives to those who believe, he indwells them and has a relationship with them.
Plus, whoever said that as Christians we are supposed to respect other people's religions? We may "tolerate" them, i.e., live peacefully with them, but Heaven's no, respect them for believing in a lie? Never in a million years!

[CornMonkey]

Originally posted by johnnymk
How can you have a relationship with someone who is dead? All of the other teachers, prophets, etc. are dead now, awaiting their eternal destiny during the future Great White Throne Judgement.
After Jesus' death and resurrection, he went back to Heaven to intercede for his believers. Through the Holy Spirit, which he gives to those who believe, he indwells them and has a relationship with them.
Plus, whoever said that as Christians we are supposed to respect other people's religions? We may "tolerate" them, i.e., live peacefully with them, but Heaven's no, respect them for believing in a lie? Never in a million years!

"But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander."

honestly johnnymk, i don't know what you're trying to prove... but it ain't working. you may not have to respect their belief but you SHOULD respect them for who they are, not what they believe. show me where in the bible it says we shouldn't do that?

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by johnnymk
How can you have a relationship with someone who is dead? All of the other teachers, prophets, etc. are dead now, awaiting their eternal destiny during the future Great White Throne Judgement.
After Jesus' death and resurrection, he went back to Heaven to intercede for his believers. Through the Holy Spirit, which he gives to those who believe, he indwells them and has a relationship with them.
Plus, whoever said that as Christians we are supposed to respect other people's religions? We may "tolerate" them, i.e., live peacefully with them, but Heaven's no, respect them for believing in a lie? Never in a million years!

The Buddha is not "dead". In the physical sense, perhaps. But there's no life or death in Nirvana. Nirvana is the break from that cycle. No more suffering, no more life, death, rebirth, etc...You'd know that if you knew anything regarding Buddhism.
Lets face it, Christianity is just has difficult to grasp for non-Christians as it is for non-Buddhists to understand Buddhism. When you begin to discuss the history and philosophy of any religion, you need to have a different state of mind. You need to be open to it to understand it. Since you're not, then nothing I say will mean anything to you.

[johnnymk]

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and BROAD is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it,
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves... Matthew 7, verses 13-15

Proverbs 23,7 says: For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.

[latingirl]

Originally posted by johnnymk
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and BROAD is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it,
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves... Matthew 7, verses 13-15

Proverbs 23,7 says: For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.

JohnnyMK - I totally know where you are going, but just quoting scripture isn't going to tell a non-christian anything.

I think the whole purpose for this thread is so that people can understand each other and discuss (not debate) the things that are part of us or are important to us. Before I became a Christian, reading the bible was the most confusing thing to me. Now it makes perfect sense, but I had to have an open mind and be open and teachable to the spirit of God (a non-christian will not understand that either, I know). When I talk to people of different faiths or no "faith" at all, I have to at least try to think back to where I was or how I thought before I became a Christian. I know everyone is different, but at least it helps me to try to explain myself so someone else understands.

I'm not trying to criticize, please, please don't take it that way. But our purpose here is for everyone to gain knowledge and understanding.

Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom [is] the principal thing; [therefore] get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

[johnnymk]

There has been enough information revealed in this thread about the basic beliefs of Buddhism. Certain people have been trying to equate Buddhism with Christianity, which is totally ridiculous. When that kind of information is being spread, I am sorry, but I can not keep quiet.
Concerning quoting the scriptures, the Bible says that the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
This principle applies not only to believers but unbelievers alike.
I remember before I was a Christian how certain scriptures kept coming to my mind and how God dealt with me and convicted me about my
lost state.
As Christians, it is OK to understand various beliefs, but we must always be ready to separate truth from fiction and to defend what we really believe.
There have been too many churches and individuals who have tried the broad road, incorporating the doctrines of the devil into their own doctrine. And look at where they ended up.
In Revelations, a certain church did not take a stand on anything. "I know thy works, that thou art neither hot nor cold: I would thou were hot or cold. So then because thou art lukewarm, I will spew thee out of my mouth."
I know that some of these things sound harsh, but believing in lies and then dying without the hope of eternal life is even more harsh.

[latingirl]

Originally posted by CornMonkey


http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=7037&highlight=christianity+debate
warning: really old thread

been there, done that...;)

DANG! Been there and done ALL of that!

Well, I'm hoping this one continues to be a discussion and not a "debate".

Plus, we got some "new" points of view this time around. :D

[CornMonkey]

Originally posted by latingirl


DANG! Been there and done ALL of that!

Well, I'm hoping this one continues to be a discussion and not a "debate".

Plus, we got some "new" points of view this time around. :D

heh, that thread was the only reason i started coming to the forums. i kinda miss that ol' debate.. :P

[InfiniteNothing]

It was that very quote (Johny's quote from Revelation (and by the way the book is called [the] Revalation [to John] not RevalationS)) is what turned me from a deeply religeous Christian to an atheist. (Where I am now is a different story) You see, I was questioning the true nature of Xianity (FYI: X is a comon abreviation for Christ. Xmas for example) with a friend (just a phase, my girlfriend had just broken up with me) and he gave me this quote (trying to renew my passion) Here is my logic for rejecting Christianity
If there is a god, he must be perfect
If god is perfect, he must be fair
Now with those assumptions, a kind loving nurse who gives her lives to makeing the lives of others surely must go to heaven(if there is one)
But Xianity would punish her, sending my sweet mom to hell if she was even a little confused (lets say for instance if she doubted the existance of God or something trivial like that)
If got is perfect he wouldn't care much if we do or don't belive in him (because ego, and hunger for power are bad human emotions.
Therefore Christianity cannot be true
Another contradiction is the Christian (not all of you but quite a few) treatment of Gay people God would be equal and expect the same respect for homosextuals.

I'd be willing to debate this over private messages (as an argument over this is not exactly on topic of this discussion). I just wanted to share a personal experience of mine.

[attgig]

Originally posted by Jihforce
Hmmm...explain to me one thing if you could. What IS the Messiah? From my understanding, the Messiah, is a messenger, not God. Is that assumption wrong? Care to elaborate?


to elaborate....the Messiah is more than a messenger.
the messengers for Jews in those days were prophets.

the Messiah was the deliverer. the expected King that would deliver them from the pain and oppression they were in to a new life.
I've heard that common consuses back then would be deliverance from the Roman empire back then.


So, when Jesus said he was the Messiah, he was saying he was their king. Also, translating from the Hebrew into English...Messiah and Christ can be used interchangebly.

[attgig]

Originally posted by latingirl
JohnnyMK - I totally know where you are going, but just quoting scripture isn't going to tell a non-christian anything.


you do?
can u explain? cause - errr - I don't.

[attgig]

Originally posted by Jihforce
The Buddha is not "dead". In the physical sense, perhaps. But there's no life or death in Nirvana. Nirvana is the break from that cycle. No more suffering, no more life, death, rebirth, etc...You'd know that if you knew anything regarding Buddhism.


ok, I don't know anything regarding Buddhism.

so, in the life after death train of thought.....
1)a person isn't able to reach Nirvana.
and the person passes away.
what happens?

2) a person does reach nirvana.
and the person passes away.
what happens?

3) who says that a person reached nirvana or not? who is the judge of that?

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by attgig


to elaborate....the Messiah is more than a messenger.
the messengers for Jews in those days were prophets.

the Messiah was the deliverer. the expected King that would deliver them from the pain and oppression they were in to a new life.
I've heard that common consuses back then would be deliverance from the Roman empire back then.


So, when Jesus said he was the Messiah, he was saying he was their king. Also, translating from the Hebrew into English...Messiah and Christ can be used interchangebly.

I see, ok I get it. Next question. How would you go about the conclusion that Messiah = God if Messiah = King. That would mean that King = God. I guess that sorta makes sense since back in the old days a "King" was sometimes regarded as a God.

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by attgig


ok, I don't know anything regarding Buddhism.

so, in the life after death train of thought.....
1)a person isn't able to reach Nirvana.
and the person passes away.
what happens?

2) a person does reach nirvana.
and the person passes away.
what happens?

3) who says that a person reached nirvana or not? who is the judge of that?

1) If a person doesn't reach Nirvana, they are reborn and go thru life again.

2) Once a person reaches Nirvana, they break the cycle of birth, death & rebirth. Reaching Nirvana is similar to the concept of Heaven. I can't tell you how is like because I've never been there :)

3) No one really judges. When that person gets there, they'll know. And everything in the living world becomes irrelevant.

A general misconception is that people think that Buddha is replacing God. That is not the case. Buddha is a teacher, we strive to our lives like he lived his. That is all. He is by no means a God. A "saint" would be more appropriate.

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by latingirl

JohnnyMK - I totally know where you are going, but just quoting scripture isn't going to tell a non-christian anything.

I think the whole purpose for this thread is so that people can understand each other and discuss (not debate) the things that are part of us or are important to us.



I know perfectly where he's getting at. He's one of the few people that loves to throw around scriptures as if it were universal law. This isn't the first time nor will be the last.

I do understand what he quoted. It makes perfect sense to me. That's his belief, its fine. I don't feel the need to go around judging other people's religions and disrespecting them. That is my nature. I believe God mentions something in regards to judging others, did He not?

Like you, I don't wanna make this a debate nor do I want to go around putting down other people. This is about sharing each others differences and bridging that gap.
People don't have to agree with what I say, but at least try to understand and respect our differences. That's all there is.

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by attgig


to elaborate....the Messiah is more than a messenger.
the messengers for Jews in those days were prophets.

the Messiah was the deliverer. the expected King that would deliver them from the pain and oppression they were in to a new life.
I've heard that common consuses back then would be deliverance from the Roman empire back then.


So, when Jesus said he was the Messiah, he was saying he was their king. Also, translating from the Hebrew into English...Messiah and Christ can be used interchangebly.

So then there is the age old question which I will not ask, but I'm sure you've heard before... Either way, the "deliverer" is much different than god.

Anyway, one thing that I could never get out of my head when reading the Bible--the New Testament, actually--was that Jesus constantly refered to everyone as his brothers and sisters and god as father. Just something to note. You don't need to answer me with what you think it means and how you interpreted the Bible. I would just like to say that, and this is taking into account almost every Christian I know, my interpretation of what the Bible says and means is far different than the standard interpretation. The only thing I can think of that would account for such a large difference in interpretation is that I've never attended sermons and have never been preached to. :shrug:

[latingirl]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy

Anyway, one thing that I could never get out of my head when reading the Bible--the New Testament, actually--was that Jesus constantly refered to everyone as his brothers and sisters and god as father. Just something to note.

I actually think that its very interesting and insightful that you noticed that. Its a BIG part of our faith (at least for me). You notice that I am constantly calling God MY Father. Why? Well here are some scriptures that will tell you...

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Galatians 4:5-7 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law (the jews AND ultimately the gentiles - LG), that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

In Christianity, we are each adopted sons (and daughters) of God the Father, the Father of Jesus Christ. And God to us takes on the nature of a Father, the protection of a Father, the provision of a Father. I have experienced things in my own life that are unexplainable. Instances where I KNOW there has to be something greater working, especially after I became a christian. For example, I've had people come and comfort me and speak to me my exact words when I was alone crying out to God. People I had never met before. I believe through them, He was telling me...its alright, I see you and I already have it all worked out. This is called relationship.

This is such a part of me, I can't help but share it. I can't help that it infuses just about everything I talk about. And if someone else comes to know God the way I do...Awesome!!! If not, of course its they're prerogotive. If God doesn't force anyone to believe in Him, who am I to try?? (But that certainly doesn't mean that I need to stop talking about Him and neither will I). We all make our own choices.

I'm not saying that anyone else is not as serious or devoted to thier faith or beliefs as I am. I am not them, I don't go home with them, I'm not in thier heads or thier hearts. I don't experience what they experience. I can only and am only speaking for myself.

[InfiniteNothing]

Originally posted by latingirl


This is such a part of me, I can't help but share it. I can't help that it infuses just about everything I talk about. And if someone else comes to know God the way I do...Awesome!!!

I'm not saying that anyone else is not as serious or devoted to thier faith or beliefs as I am. I am not them, I don't go home with them, I'm not in thier heads or thier hearts. I don't experience what they experience. I can only and am only speaking for myself.

I'm glad someone else put up a story. I was feeling like a bit of a loner. Perhaps someone should start a new post (as the conversation has turned from Budism ) It could be titled "Stories and Opinions of Christianity" or something.

One question, you said you hope someone else experiences "God" the same way you do. What would you say to someone who had a similar experience as you but came to the conclution that Jesus, while a nice guy, was a fraud. (for example a bird crapped on their head after a night of praying "may a bird crap on me if I am wrong about Jesus's holyness)

[latingirl]

Originally posted by InfiniteNothing


I'm glad someone else put up a story. I was feeling like a bit of a loner. Perhaps someone should start a new post (as the conversation has turned from Budism ) It could be titled "Stories and Opinions of Christianity" or something.

One question, you said you hope someone else experiences "God" the same way you do. What would you say to someone who had a similar experience as you but came to the conclution that Jesus, while a nice guy, was a fraud. (for example a bird crapped on their head after a night of praying "may a bird crap on me if I am wrong about Jesus's holyness)

Well, actually it seems like the topic turns just about every other post. I guess that's just how it goes. I'm replying to a post.

Also, not to be sarcastic, but please quote me correctly. I said that IF someone comes to know God the way I do...Awesome! You left out the IF NOT part (maybe you missed that).

If that's what you experienced, then I'm sorry. Frankly, I don't know WHAT to say. All I can comment on is what I have experienced. If not, its really not a valid question. Come back and see me when a bird craps on your head.

[InfiniteNothing]

I attempted to write you (latingirl) a private note but your mail box was full. I guess I'll just post it publicly. I'm sorry public....
My complaint with changing the topic on a thread is that a person might want to read a post on Budism but may not want to hear alot of Xian propaganda. If they start reading they may have to sift though alot of posts and that really isn't fair.

[latingirl]

Originally posted by InfiniteNothing
I attempted to write you (latingirl) a private note but your mail box was full. I guess I'll just post it publicly. I'm sorry public....
My complaint with changing the topic on a thread is that a person might want to read a post on Budism but may not want to hear alot of Xian propaganda. If they start reading they may have to sift though alot of posts and that really isn't fair.

I totally understand. If you go back to the first page, I tried to keep this on topic...but it keeps reverting back to Christianity and I was basically told that that's the way it goes. :shrug:

I'm just going with the flow here...;)

[InfiniteNothing]

Yeah I'm guilty of this too. :stupid: Sorry everyone, I'm just a bit new at this. I'll start some nice thread topics some day.

[latingirl]

Originally posted by InfiniteNothing
Yeah I'm guilty of this too. :stupid: Sorry everyone, I'm just a bit new at this. I'll start some nice thread topics some day.

That's very gracious of you...but in the future, no need to apologize. EVERYBODY seems to be guilty of it 'round here.

:D

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by latingirl


I actually think that its very interesting and insightful that you noticed that. Its a BIG part of our faith (at least for me). You notice that I am constantly calling God MY Father. Why? Well here are some scriptures that will tell you...

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Galatians 4:5-7 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law (the jews AND ultimately the gentiles - LG), that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.



And that is exactly what I was getting at. BTW, these are not questions to be answered... well, maybe for yourself, but I've already answered them for myself, so there is no point in trying to change my mind. If Jesus is god, why does he refer to got as father? Why does he refer to everyone else as brothers and sisters? I know the normal Christian responses for these questions and what they believe. I've tried that shoe on for a while, and it just didn't fit. There was just something that I couldn't come to terms with... it kept bothering me like a splinter in my mind...

Oh well, I guess god just didn't have the time to explain it to me. :shrug: And again, please, don't anybody try to convince me that I'm wrong. All of my Christian friends have worked on me for the last 10-15 years of my life, and they've finally given up, so nothing you can say on these boards will convert me.

And to give a swing back towards the Buddhism angle, many of my Christian friends couldn't understand how I live the life I live and how I make the life choices I make without being Christian. Personally, I agree with everything that Jesus said and did--though I think he was widely misinterpreted, but many people said and did those things before Jesus. Jesus was a Jew, and lived amoung Jewish people... If he realized the underlying truth in other life philosophies, the only way he could relay them to his people was in a Jewish context. The only way he could enlighten his people without ostrcizing them was to import those new truths into an already existing religious structure. These are some of the reasons why I believe that Christianity and Buddhism are so closely related. They preach much the things, just in a different context.