Tom Green could go to jail

[IntegraTypeR]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=573&ncid=757&e=4&u=/nm/20020826/od_nm/polygamy_dc_1


SALT LAKE CITY (Reuters) - Polygamist Tom Green has spent a lot of time extolling the virtues of taking multiple wives. On Tuesday, he will learn what price he must pay for his lifestyle when he is sentenced for raping a minor -- a girl he married when she was just 13 years of age.



The man who lived with five wives and 29 children and has gone on national television to talk about his life was convicted in June of raping Linda Kunz Green after he married her in 1986, when he was 37 and she was 13. The marriage produced a son, Melvin.

Green, 54, has been in prison since last year for a term of up to five years after being convicted of bigamy. The latest conviction could send him to prison for the rest of his life.

But while he has been a vocal advocate of multiple wives, his days are now spent quietly.

"He's quite depressed, very sad," said Green's attorney, John Bucher. But Green still stands by his belief in creating a polygamist family, the lawyer said.

Linda Kunz Green and her son Melvin, now 15, are expected to take the stand before Green is sentenced.

In prepared statements filed with the court, relatives said Green never meant to commit a crime.

"Even though Tom and I made an error in judgement in 1986, our intent was not to commit a crime. We had a religious ceremony before we had sex in which we made lifetime commitments to each other. It was not a situation where Tom 'knocked up' some girl and then decided that he had better marry her," Linda Kunz Green said in her letter.

"The most important thing to be considered now is the 29 children that need their father and what their future holds without him being there for them," she wrote. In all, Tom Green has fathered 33 children.

Anti-polygamy groups say many people in rural Utah practice plural marriage, believing it adheres to the original guidance of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- commonly called the Mormon church. Green holds such beliefs.

Polygamy was originally encouraged by Mormons, who settled in the Utah territory after fleeing religious persecution. But the church banned the practice in 1890 to win full statehood in the United States for Utah. Polygamists are now ex-communicated from the Mormon Church.

Melvin Green told the judge his father is not a criminal.

"To view me as the product of a crime hurts me. It makes me feel abnormal. I am very normal. I was a member of the West Desert High School basketball team. ... I ran and was elected for the student body representative," the youngster said.

Juab County prosecutor David Leavitt, brother of Utah Gov. Mike Leavitt, said investigators started looking into the case after seeing Green and his wives on television.

Green and the women appeared on Dateline, "Jerry Springer" and "48 Hours" and talked about how the children were cared for and their sleeping arrangements, giving a rare glimpse into the polygamist lifestyle.

The family no longer lives in the remote compound in Utah's west desert where they lived at that time. With Green in prison, the women and children, struggling to make ends meet, have moved to the Salt Lake City area.

Prosecutor Leavitt said he has been meeting with some of the wives to determine their needs. "I have always seen these women as victims," Leavitt told Reuters. He said private money has been raised, but declined to disclose details.

The specter of life in prison or at least a long stretch behind bars for Tom Green has forced the family to move on.

"We just have to deal with whatever happens. That's all we can do. We don't know what to expect, we don't know what's going to happen we just know we have to survive through it." Linda Kunz Green told Reuters recently.


wow.. i didnt kno that tom green was a polygamist

[Freelance Superhero]

i didn't read the whole article, but i'm thinkin it's not the same tom green who married drew barrymore... err... right...?

[Hiro]

Originally posted by Freelance Superhero
i didn't read the whole article, but i'm thinkin it's not the same tom green who married drew barrymore... err... right...?
no its not, and this Tom Green is 54. :P

[eSDee]

Could be a blessing in disguise. Atleast in jail he won't have 5 people a day telling him "to take out the trash". :shrug:

[psycho-]

I would have to say both tom Greens are weird

[brain]

I was hoping it was the OTHER Tom Green. He's a freaking idiot and should be put away.

[sbp]

Yep, lock both Tom Greens up.

[NuTs62]

Originally posted by eSDeeLoco
Could be a blessing in disguise. Atleast in jail he won't have 5 people a day telling him "to take out the trash". :shrug:

you're right.. instead, he'll have 5 people a day telling him to pick up the soap! oww!

[SonyGuy]

Yeah, I was thinking wtf, Tom Green is going to prison? lol. Well, the other Tom Green needs to look on the bright side. He can build a new family in prison and there are probably plenty of inmates who would love to play the role of housewife for him...:eek:

[topane]

Originally posted by SonyGuy
Yeah, I was thinking wtf, Tom Green is going to prison? lol. Well, the other Tom Green needs to look on the bright side. He can build a new family in prison and there are probably plenty of inmates who would love to play the role of housewife for him...:eek: Or he might be a housewife for multiple people... :2far:

[Merlin]

Originally posted by brain
I was hoping it was the OTHER Tom Green. He's a freaking idiot and should be put away.

:stupid: :stupid: :stupid: :stupid:

What an annoying sonofabitch! :angry:

[Ladogaboy]

Who knows, this could make the issue of polygamy go before the Supreme Court, and I know that that is not what a lot of people in this country would like to see. The same goes for gay marriages and god in the Pledge of Allegiance. All three of those issues are hard to criticize when looked at from an open and logical perspective.

Oh yes, and Tom Green should go to jail.

[Burzhui]

Damn, this guy did nothing wrong, if he wants to have 5 wives let him i mean what the hell is the difference if all 6 parties are ok with it then fine, instead kill the other tom green that has soiled Drew Barrymore

[Kim]

Originally posted by Burzhui
Damn, this guy did nothing wrong, if he wants to have 5 wives let him i mean what the hell is the difference if all 6 parties are ok with it then fine, instead kill the other tom green that has soiled Drew Barrymore

The problem with him having 5 wives is that he is not taking care of them..they are all on welfare. WE are taking care of them. Also, he is in trouble because one of his wives was 13. How is that not a problem??

[WhiskeyPapa]

33 kids? He is my hero. :P

[Merlin]

Originally posted by Kim


The problem with him having 5 wives is that he is not taking care of them..they are all on welfare. WE are taking care of them. Also, he is in trouble because one of his wives was 13. How is that not a problem??

Silly me. I always thought most wives could take care of themselves.


Excuse me while I duck for cover. :hihi:

[jase71]

If he wants to live with a harem, and he finds willing participants, I guess that's fine... that's their business.

But marriage is not only a religious bond, it's a legal one as well. There are legal ramifications that could cause all kinds of funky problems. Is his employer legally bound to provide benefits for all his wives and children? Does he get a child tax credit for each of those 29 kids?

[Kim]

Originally posted by Merlin


Silly me. I always thought most wives could take care of themselves.


Excuse me while I duck for cover. :hihi:

I should have said that a different way. He is not financially responsible for his children. If you want to have 3 wives and 67 kids, hey, more power to ya. But, you'd better be able to pay for those children yourself, IMnotsohumbleO.

[mcs328]

:stupid:

[molecularfire]

Well... I tried not to post today because I have a quiz in two hours, but I really can't resist. First of all, I agree that his marrying a 13 year old girl is just plain yucky. However, I don't know if the statuatory rape laws were put into effect to counter things like this. There are a lot of cultures where marrying at a young age is ok. That, and I don't see how any harm came from this. However, despite that, my stance on this is that it still is yucky, and illegal (and I do support this law) and so he should go to jail for that.

However, I don't see why he should be getting persecuted because his beliefs are different from ours. Simply put, he was trying to take care of his family. Now that he's in jail, that's gonna make things harder on his family, and that's it. I don't see how any good has come from persecuting him. The prosecuter said that he sees the wives as victims... well, isn't he one of the people victimizing them. They seemed ok enough until the law got involved.

In response to:

The problem with him having 5 wives is that he is not taking care of them..they are all on welfare. WE are taking care of them.
The way the welfare system is set up, we are paying for a lot of horny idiots who didn't plan ahead on how to take care of their kids, or did plan ahead and had kids to get more welfare money. If you have a problem with this (and btw, I kind do) then fix the welfare program. There are a lot of people who can't take care of thier kids that aren't in jail.

Simply put, we don't agree with his beliefs and are looking for a reason to put this guy away. How is this not persecution?

[Kim]

Ok, he has his beliefs, and he thinks its ok to have many wives. That is fine, but I don't agree that the 13 year old girl is able to make an informed decision on her own that she should marry a 30+ year old man. I know that at 13 I didn't even like boys, let alone want to get married and have children. These kids are sort of forced into this lifestyle. I see it more as protecting innocent children rather than persecuting him for his religion.

Good luck on your quiz!!

[molecularfire]

I agree that he should go to jail for statutory rape. I'm just saying that people were looking for a reson to put him away. Granted, they found a good reason... the question is should they have been looking for a reason to begin with?


Juab County prosecutor David Leavitt, brother of Utah Gov. Mike Leavitt, said investigators started looking into the case after seeing Green and his wives on television.

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by Kim


The problem with him having 5 wives is that he is not taking care of them..they are all on welfare. WE are taking care of them. Also, he is in trouble because one of his wives was 13. How is that not a problem??

hey full consent right, the girl still loves him, still has no problem with it, so what's the problem

[Hiro]

This thread definitely turned into an interesting little conversation. :)

I agree that if people want more than one wife, that's their business. I myself would never dream of doing that.

If you want 500 kids...hey, at least your potent.

But how do you look at a 13 year old and think, "I want to marry her!"

That's just wrong.

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by Corsec

But how do you look at a 13 year old and think, "I want to marry her!"

That's just wrong.

that's been practiced for centuries though, it's still being practiced in other countries

[Merlin]

Originally posted by Burzhui


that's been practiced for centuries though, it's still being practiced in other countries

Yeah, by barbarians. Just because stuff has been done before doesn't make it in the least bit justifiable. For example - slavery. And as for people from other countries, well let's try and focus on the more enlightened ones. :rolleyes:

[sbp]

Originally posted by Burzhui
that's been practiced for centuries though, it's still being practiced in other countries So is slavery. :thumbdown

Why would any man in his right mind want more wives to nag him. :P

Some of you gentlemen are forgetting if its okay for a man to marry multiple women then it will be okay for a woman to marry multiple men.

Imagine the problems establishing the paternity of children.

Got to wonder what next will be came up with. At a certain point enough is enough.

[Burzhui]

ok so is slavery so what? Great nations became great due to slavery, it was all an important part of history and without it there might not have been a USA as we know it, or the great Roman empire, or Russia, or any other nation

[jase71]

Originally posted by Burzhui
ok so is slavery so what? Great nations became great due to slavery, it was all an important part of history and without it there might not have been a USA as we know it, or the great Roman empire, or Russia, or any other nation

Are you volunteering to become a slave? You could become MY slave, and turn all your income over to me. It would make my wealth and power much greater! Sounds like a great deal... for me. Not so hot for you.

The ends do not always justify the means. Becoming wealthy and powerful does not excuse abhorrent behavior used to obtain that wealth and power.

Criminals often become wealthy. The fact that they become wealthy does not mean they are not criminals. Success does not equate to a pardon for your crimes.

Politicians often become corrupt and powerful. The fact that they become powerful does not mean they are not guilty.

This man was a pedophile, a child molestor. The fact that his victim supposedly agreed, and that it fell within the bounds of permissable by some sect of a religion does not change the fact that he violated societal standards and laws. If he does not agree with those laws, he is free to either leave the country, or work to change them. However, as long as the laws stand, he is required to follow them.

[Burzhui]

he did work to change them though

[jase71]

Originally posted by Burzhui
he did work to change them though

Yes, but he didn't succeed. At least not yet. The law is still binding UNTIL it's changed.

[Jihforce]

Not to agree 100% with Burzhui over there. But he's got a point, history is history, we are where we are because of what happened. (good or bad)

I do feel, however, that what other cultures do in their countries is their business. If its legal then it doesn't mean its wrong. Its their cuture, we shouldn't be judging them.

Now, in Tom Green's case there's an exception. It is illegal to have marry a 13 year old and have sex with her. He is in a country that does not condone that behavior, so he has to be held accountable for his actions. The law is the law, if they do not uphold this, then it gives people the impression that is OK to marry a 13 year old or to have multiple wives because of religions belief. When religion starts breaking laws, that's when someone has to put a stop to those activities.

Personal opinion here: Why would ANYONE want more than 1 wife? I means seriously? Sex isn't good enough of a reason to have more than 1 wife. Don't think I could handly having more than 1 wife nagging me. :heh:

[WhiskeyPapa]

Originally posted by Corsec
But how do you look at a 13 year old and think, "I want to marry her!"
It gets worse. This girl was his stepdaughter.

[jase71]

Originally posted by Jihforce
Not to agree 100% with Burzhui over there. But he's got a point, history is history, we are where we are because of what happened. (good or bad)

True, we're here because of it. But because we've done it in the past doesn't mean it's fair game to continue it in the future. We can't change what's been done, but we can ensure we don't make the same mistakes again. Otherwise all the atrocities of our past are fair game to repeat. Internment camps, smallpox blankets, forced labor... the whole gamut.

[IntegraTypeR]

i just don't know how a 13-yr old girl could be married in the usa w/o the parents balking at the idea...i would have liked to see the segment on Jerry Springer that had Tom Green & family

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by jase71


True, we're here because of it. But because we've done it in the past doesn't mean it's fair game to continue it in the future. We can't change what's been done, but we can ensure we don't make the same mistakes again. Otherwise all the atrocities of our past are fair game to repeat. Internment camps, smallpox blankets, forced labor... the whole gamut.

I agree. History is life. We make mistakes and sometimes we learn from them. We can't deny the fact that we are better off now for having done what we've done and learn from it, than not doing it at all. Its like living our lives, we don't know any better until something happens that changes our perception of it. Example, slavery is a bad thing. But the only reason we feel that way is because we were able to see the negatives in it. Back in the old days, it was the norm. Same goes for marrying girls under 18. Some cultures still do it. Maybe 50 years down the road, that'll change.

[NuTs62]

For the most part, many of you guys have well thought out arguments, and have made good points on both sides.

I'm sure my statements will reitterate other's views and opinions.

History, yep, things have happened, and hopefully we learn from it. We cannot change the past, but we can make a difference in what the future holds. Thats one of many reasons why we have history class in schools. To hopefully learn from mistakes of the past, and not to repeat it.

As for the comments of great nations, because of slavery.. The U.S. has become a "great nation" because we as a nation have learned from the mistakes from the past. But wouldn't it be better if we learned from the mistakes of others instead of repeating other's mistakes? What a greater nation that would be.

For Mr. Green, if he wishes to have many wives, thats his choice, its his life, as well as his however many wives and kids. But if he uses the services of the government, then he is subject to the laws of the land. And as some have pointed out, the laws will exist, and will remain until someone changes it. Until then, his actions are considered illegal in his area, if not the U.S. I'm not saying he's "wrong" for doing what he does, but I don't agree with it. And based upon how I was raised, and the societal standards that I've grown accustomed to, its actually sick what he does, but thats the societal influence for you.

The laws of the lands, you either accept it or you don't. Thats not to say that you agree with every law, but you can't say "oh, i don't like this law, so its not gonna apply to me". You take the good with the bad. If you don't like it, change it. If he enjoys it here, then he should put up with the laws. And like the rest of us, if you disobey it, you should be held accountable.

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by Kim
Ok, he has his beliefs, and he thinks its ok to have many wives. That is fine, but I don't agree that the 13 year old girl is able to make an informed decision on her own that she should marry a 30+ year old man. I know that at 13 I didn't even like boys, let alone want to get married and have children. These kids are sort of forced into this lifestyle. I see it more as protecting innocent children rather than persecuting him for his religion.


Then why aren't you asking where her parents were when she got married? And who married them?

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by sbp
Some of you gentlemen are forgetting if its okay for a man to marry multiple women then it will be okay for a woman to marry multiple men.

I certainly didn't forget that: it was one of the foremost thoughts on my mind. However, I'm not a gentleman either, so I guess you weren't talking about me. :P

[Kim]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy


Then why aren't you asking where her parents were when she got married? And who married them?


Sometimes children need protected from their own parents. That is certainly the case here.

[WhiskeyPapa]

Originally posted by IntegraTypeR
i just don't know how a 13-yr old girl could be married in the usa w/o the parents balking at the idea...
Because Tom Green was already married to the 13-year-old girl's mom.

[WhiskeyPapa]

Originally posted by NuTs62
But if he uses the services of the government, then he is subject to the laws of the land.
Even if he doesn't use the services of the government, he is still subject to the laws.

[molecularfire]

A couple of thoughts...

1. How is polygamy like slavery again? With polygamy, the people involved have a say in the matter. With slavery, they don't. I don't think it's accurate to dispute the respect other people's beliefs argument with the slavery argument. Not when they have nothing to do with one another.

2. There are cultures out there that do allow women to marry multiple men. I see nothing wrong with that either. I mean... I wouldn't want to be a part of that, but hey whatever floats your boat. As for saying that stuff like that shouldn't be allowed because it'll get in the way of paternity disputes... that is very short sighted. There are 20 billion tests out there to determine paternity. The problem is with the paternity laws that 1) don't require paternity tests and 2) don't care about the results of a paternity test. Don't blame other cultures on our own stupidity.

3. btw, thanks for the good luck kim. I got a 10/10 on the quiz. hehehe:thumbup:

[Kim]

Originally posted by molecularfire


3. btw, thanks for the good luck kim. I got a 10/10 on the quiz. hehehe:thumbup:



WTG!!! :kiss: :thumbup:

[whitak24]

Originally posted by molecularfire
A couple of thoughts...

1. How is polygamy like slavery again? With polygamy, the people involved have a say in the matter. With slavery, they don't. I don't think it's accurate to dispute the respect other people's beliefs argument with the slavery argument. Not when they have nothing to do with one another.

2. There are cultures out there that do allow women to marry multiple men. I see nothing wrong with that either. I mean... I wouldn't want to be a part of that, but hey whatever floats your boat. As for saying that stuff like that shouldn't be allowed because it'll get in the way of paternity disputes... that is very short sighted. There are 20 billion tests out there to determine paternity. The problem is with the paternity laws that 1) don't require paternity tests and 2) don't care about the results of a paternity test. Don't blame other cultures on our own stupidity.

3. btw, thanks for the good luck kim. I got a 10/10 on the quiz. hehehe:thumbup:
actually, polygamy wasn't being compared to slavery. somewhere up above, someone made the argument that marriage to a 13-year-old was ok because it was practiced in the past and is still practiced by some cultures today.

other people brought up the fact that slavery (also practiced in the past and still practiced by some cultures today) is frowned on by most of us (although i'm not sure about burz). therefore, one cannot necessarily assume that just because something was practiced in the past and is still practiced by some cultures today, it is ok.

also, good job on your quiz. you're a genius dude.

[molecularfire]

Oops... my bad. I had read the above threads, but kinda fast and I got the impression that they were saying that polygamy was practiced in the past and it was refuted by saying that slavery was practiced in the past also, and so that argument really didn't make any sense to me. Sorry...my bad. Gotta read things more carefully. :blush:

Continue with your arguing everyone.
:)

[whitak24]

Originally posted by molecularfire
Gotta read things more carefully. :blush:
you actually try to read what other people post before you reply? that's a novel concept around here :heh:

:P

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by whitak24

you actually try to read what other people post before you reply? that's a novel concept around here :heh:

:P

I agree completely. Hamburgers are great.

[Lady In Red]

I remember when he was on some morning shows - like Ricki Lake - Oprah etc....What really got to me was when he introduce his wives and he told which one's were mother and daughter!! Now talk about incest and being retarded! What mother in her right mind would even allow her daughter to marry the same man she is married too plus give her blessing! Also to a man that is old enough to be her dad!!

It was a very sicken hour to say the least and I'm glad he is in jail and I hope he rots to h3ll there! Also I think all his "wives" should be in jail too!! What woman in her right mind would so willingly share a man - not with one but several women, and her own flesh and blood??

The best I recall was that he had certain "nights" to spend with each woman, and their children. I also remember them saying they work outside of the home and between them they always had someone that was there to look after the children and the older kids help with the smaller ones.

Man! It sure is a sick world! Don't understand why they didn't get him years agao!!!!

*LIR now calms down* :)

[whitak24]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy


I agree completely. Hamburgers are great.
you make a good point, but i have to disagree. i still think the owners' desire for a hard salary cap is what has caused the impending baseball strike

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by whitak24

you make a good point, but i have to disagree. i still think the owners' desire for a hard salary cap is what has caused the impending baseball strike

:stupid:

[Blu]

Originally posted by whitak24

you make a good point, but i have to disagree. i still think the owners' desire for a hard salary cap is what has caused the impending baseball strike

OMG, you like the Flyers!!!!11

[NuTs62]

Originally posted by Blu


OMG, you like the Flyers!!!!11

I do, because that is the best carpet cleaner around barnone!

[molecularfire]

Originally posted by Lady In Red
I remember when he was on some morning shows - like Ricki Lake - Oprah etc....What really got to me was when he introduce his wives and he told which one's were mother and daughter!! Now talk about incest and being retarded! What mother in her right mind would even allow her daughter to marry the same man she is married too plus give her blessing! Also to a man that is old enough to be her dad!!


Hehehehehehe... I know that this is sick, but I found this pretty funny. :heh: :heh: :heh:

[Cantacuzene]

Screw Tom Green. That guy is a pedofile and a rapist. I hope he gets what he deserves.

As far as saying it was slavery that made us great, I dont agree with that. Historically, slavery weakens societies morally and financially in the long run. Slavery weakened the south, hyence why they lost to the non-slave north. Slavery set the southern economy back 50 years and the effects are still being felt. As an example, look at the percapita income of Georgia or Alabama compared to New York or Conneticut. Slavery has been and still is one of the biggest limiters on this countries greatness.