Who here thinks America is at fault for last 9/11?

[Jenny]

Ok, much to my disappointment, a person that I consider (considered? *sigh*) a friend is glad last year happened and thinks America is at fault. So I'm curious as to who thinks that.

[Apex]

Did they actually share why they thought the US was at fault?

[Jenny]

Nope, not really. Just said it shows how stupid America is.

[jujubees]

Originally posted by Jenny
Just said it shows how stupid America is. There are some places in the world where citizens are not allowed to freely voice their opinions, much less opinions that defame the country that they call home. :disa:

[NuTs62]

I am in no way glad what happened one year ago. I'm not sure if the fault is solely upon the U.S.. But I believe the U.S. does have its faults in the matter. The way our country gets into other country's business, sticking our nose where it doesn't belong.. Teaching Bin Laden what he knows.. Neglecting to pay attention to warning signs.. Basically falling asleep, because we couldn't fathom anything of this magnitude would ever hit our nation. Granted, we never knew such a thing would happen, well, most of us that is. Hypothetically speaking, because we may never know, this sort of stuff could have been stopped. So to a certain degree, I do agree with what your friend said, that America is at fault, partially. Our country pissed some people off, and surely, they'd like to retaliate.. Just as we now want to retaliate for their retaliation.. I'm not pointing fingers at who started what.. But to say America has no blame or no faults, thats kinda one-sided.

But its kind of too late to do the finger pointing, because that doesn't solve much. We must look at what we can do in the present, to make for a better future, and hope these acts of terrorism won't occur again (wishful thinking I believe).

[topane]

I'm not glad, but I'm sure America is a little to blame. Not a lot, like 5% or something.

That wasn't very coherent, was it?

[Jihforce]

I don't know if I'd call it "America's fault". But I'm think the government should have seen it coming. You cannot please everyone, specially when it comes to foreign policies. If you take one countries side, you're bound to piss the other side off.

[LPMiller]

assigning blame justifies it. You cannot justify the death of 3,000 people. Did America do things that may have pissed some people off? Yeah, sure.

But we are not to 'blame' for what happened. Only the people who did it can lay that claim.

[eSDee]

Originally posted by LPMiller
assigning blame justifies it. You cannot justify the death of 3,000 people. Did America do things that may have pissed some people off? Yeah, sure.

But we are not to 'blame' for what happened. Only the people who did it can lay that claim.

Finally some intelligence.

[Hiro]

Originally posted by topane
I'm not glad, but I'm sure America is a little to blame. Not a lot, like 5% or something.

That wasn't very coherent, was it?
:stupid:

It was coherent enough for those who need to understand it to be able to.

[faither]

At fault. Are you f-ing kidding me. By no means am I an apologist for the government, I've got my issues with the politics of the day to be sure, but in no way can you say that the US us to blame for what happened.

Sticking our noses in others' business -- get real. It's happened since day one. If the Poles and French don't assist the Revolutionary effort, we're all sipping tea and speaking with a British accent. Actually, many of us wouldn't be because our ancestors that came to this country seeking a better life wouldn't have had a new, better world which to come.

If we don't stick our noses into what was going on in Europe during the early 1940's, Hitler takes over all of the Continent, exterminating Jews, Gypsies and Catholics (and then maybe on to Buddhists and anyone else they didn't care for).

If you want to assign blame, why don't you try the media. No, I'm not talking about Peter Jennings or Dan Rather but media in general (radio, television, the internet, et al.). What media has helped to do is shrink the world. People, kept down for years, have begun to realize that there's a great deal going on outside their immediate confines.

The people perpetuating this act on us hate us because we are free to express our opinions, because we allow women to become educated and exercise control over their bodies, because we allow freedom of religion and assembly. THAT'S WHY THEY HATE US!

Now, if you want to extend that thinking and say that we are responsible for what happened because we live in a free society (and we do despite what some of the deep-thinkers around here would lead you to believe) and they can't handle that, I'll cut you some slack.

[Jenny]

Originally posted by faither
faither's reply

:stupid:

I agree 100% with you faither.

[Kevster]

Originally posted by Yossarian
in a way yes it is.
/me steps up to soap box

we as a nation stick our nose into business that we have no right to be in. we 'police' the globe trying to get everyone else to submit to our ways of government and ways of life. we as a nation need to relize that other peoples have diffrent styles of living, and while we may not agree with them, maybe its the best for them. other peoples have been using the same form of government and the same ways of life for hundreds if not thousands of years. by us interfering with that, we not only make them mad, but contries who are if not allies, then in coexistance with them. we have pissed almost every country in the world off, and in government, it will take tens of years for them to forget/ignore the fact that we pissed them off.

when the terrorists attacked us, we joined the rest of the world. what we felt one year ago, and what we feel now are what some peoples feel everyday. some because of our presence, others because its what their religion tells them to do. we cannot collectivly understand their religion because we don't want to. their religion tells them if they are persecuted because of their belifs(sp?) to strike back with violence. did the christians not do that during the crusades? are they not doing that in ireland?

many people are feeling extremely patriotic and are going around denouncing anyone who says ANYTHING negative about the US. i almost got my ass whooped today because i brought up this point(its partially our fault) do they not realize that we are not a perfect nation, do they not realize that by trying to be PC they are pissing off more people than they are getting to follow them?

/me steps of soapbox

i'm not trying to start a flame war, just get a point across

Wow. After all that, I'm not going to address any points you may have wrong (and there are several) because I would end up writing an essay too long to post here. But to aid you in your youthful and somewhat uninformed opinions, please take some time and read "The Ugly American" by Eugene Burdick and William Lederer.

link to info on The Ugly American (http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/fall98/uglyamerican.htm)

I would also suggest you get out into the world and see what it's really like. Then you'll see just how good we actually have it here.

You have a couple partially valid points about U.S. foreign policy, but again I agree with LPMiller when he says, "You cannot justify the death of 3,000 people. Did America do things that may have pissed some people off? Yeah, sure.

But we are not to 'blame' for what happened. Only the people who did it can lay that claim. "

[hapoo]

Originally posted by faither
The people perpetuating this act on us hate us because we are free to express our opinions, because we allow women to become educated and exercise control over their bodies, because we allow freedom of religion and assembly. THAT'S WHY THEY HATE US!



I love how you think you know why they hate America. As a "middle eastern" i have a lot of contact with other middle easterners, and i'll tell you this much... People there LOVE American culture, movies, music, and freedoms and the rest. What they hate about America has nothing to do with the people, but its all about the politics and America's policies.

As for who's to blame... I personally wouldn't use the word blame or fault, but i think America DID contribute to it occuring (It would be impossible not to do so)

[Kevster]

Originally posted by Yossarian
how can we NOT be at blame. we let 4 airplanes get hijacked within a sapn of 2 hours? come on, that just says wonders about airport security. now the gov can monitor our religions and other rights that our forefathers gave us. Chief Seattle gave sent the president(i think i was fillmore pierce) a letter that said will will eventually die out like the indians have. i'll get the exact quote tommorow, i left it in school.

you brought up hitler and the nazi's. we eventually entered the war because AMERICAN CITIZENS were killed. were any AMEREICAN citizens killed in bosnia? what about iraq? what true reason did we have to go after them in 92? did the russians kill any AMERICAN citizens? then why the massive arms build up of the 50's-80's? so we could 'protect the world' thats bull****. if someone launches a nuke, everyone else with them is gonna launch them, because they feel threatened, and all life as we know it will cease to be.

you bring up women. diffrent cultures treat diffrent people diffrent ways. in islam, women have been treated the same way for thousands of years, and its a cutural/religious belif that people don't want to face/accept/understand. you might find it wierd that there is a religion called Jainism. they belive that you will be reincarnated as possibly and animal, another person, or incest. they place masks over their faces and walk with brooms to brush away inscets so that they aren't killing other people. thats why hindu's don' eat beef. and we as a culture laugh at that.

After reading all that drivel, I have come to the conclusion that you should have gotten your ass kicked today...

[kimchicowboy]

yes, i believe we are partly to blame because of the actions of US foreign policy. there is probably so much involved in US foreign policy that we do not know about, but it's pretty easy to just say that the terrorist don't like us because of this and that. but we have to realize that US foreign policy is for the benefit of this country. although everyone will not agree to everything, the politicians can't make everyone happy. with the current issue with iraq, should we go in and take hussein out? not sure, but i don't want to take chances with a guy who's paranoid and kills his own family members. if he has nothing to hide (i.e. biological, nuclear, chemical warfare), why did he not let the weapons inspectors inspect the suspected areas back in the early 90s? that says something to me. ok. i went off on a tangent. ok. i liked what LPmiller said. done.

[Merlin]

The only thing America is to blame for is getting caught off gaurd.

No matter what you think of policy or politics there is no excuse for massive killing of non-combatants.

[Merlin]

Originally posted by Kevster

"The Ugly American" by Eugene Burdick and William Lederer.


Ah, Freedom Road! :thumb:

[faither]

Originally posted by hapoo

I love how you think you know why they hate America. As a "middle eastern" i have a lot of contact with other middle easterners, and i'll tell you this much... People there LOVE American culture, movies, music, and freedoms and the rest. What they hate about America has nothing to do with the people, but its all about the politics and America's policies.

As for who's to blame... I personally wouldn't use the word blame or fault, but i think America DID contribute to it occuring (It would be impossible not to do so)

Read again. I'm not speaking about all middle-easterners, I'm not talking about ALL anything other than terrorists and dictators. The great majority of the rest of the world's population do love American culture and many aspire to what we do have and possibly come here for nothing more than vacation or the noblist intentions.

Again, I cast no aspersions on any culture or group.

[Kevster]

Originally posted by Yossarian

:pfft: i love you too :hihi: its harder for me to type it out, as i think faster than i type. where as i can talk faster than i think :hmm: i actually had a few teachers tell me that they were 'suprised at the knowledge that you put forth during our discussion in class today' :shrug:

I don't know if I'd call it "knowledge" because you're wrong on a LOT of points including those on Christianity and the Crusades, the troubles in Ireland, WWII, the Cold War, Bosnia and genocide. You may be able to bring up historical facts and ideas, but it's in the interpretation and correlation of those ideas and facts that you are on some seriously shaky ground.

[Memo]

Everything that happens is as a result of something we did. So if you think about it that way, sure it's our fault. But we are just the nation we always have been. It's like if someone is gay and he gets gay bashed.....is it his fault he got bashed? Yes, he's gay, but it's not DIRECTLY his fault. I know, stupid analogy, but just simple. I don't think we caused this and I don't think it's our fault. Everyone hates you when you're at the top :)

[faither]

Originally posted by Yossarian
you brought up hitler and the nazi's. we eventually entered the war because AMERICAN CITIZENS were killed. were any AMEREICAN citizens killed in bosnia? what about iraq? what true reason did we have to go after them in 92? did the russians kill any AMERICAN citizens? then why the massive arms build up of the 50's-80's? so we could 'protect the world' thats bull****. if someone launches a nuke, everyone else with them is gonna launch them, because they feel threatened, and all life as we know it will cease to be.

Are you real? We took on Japan for the bombing of Pearl Harbor. We became involved with Germany to protect our allies (England, France, etc.) -- again, just as the Poles and French supported the colonists in their fight against the Redcoats.

Bosnia. The Bosnian Serbs killed tens of thousands of their own countrymen; Croats and Muslims. Should we have let that continue. Regardless of what you think of the UN, many of the Serb leaders have been tried and convicted of Wars Crimes -- it ain't just a US thing.

Iraq. How about their invasion of Kuwait. Their role in the bombing of the American Embassy in Beirut in '82 or the bombing of the Marine barracks in '83. Suddam has used biological weapons against his own people.

The build-up against Russia was due to their stated goal of crushing capitalism. They had nuclear weapons 90 miles from the US in Cuba. While growing up I scratched my head trying to understand it, MAD (the theory of mutually assured destruction) is what probably kept everyone alive in the 60's and 70's.

Go read a book.



Originally posted by Yossarian
you bring up women. diffrent cultures treat diffrent people diffrent ways. in islam, women have been treated the same way for thousands of years, and its a cutural/religious belif that people don't want to face/accept/understand. you might find it wierd that there is a religion called Jainism. they belive that you will be reincarnated as possibly and animal, another person, or incest. they place masks over their faces and walk with brooms to brush away inscets so that they aren't killing other people. thats why hindu's don' eat beef. and we as a culture laugh at that.

I don't laugh at any culture or belief -- regardless of how foreign it may seem to me. I'm no better than the next person but I respect diversity and appreciate how it helps to enrich our own society.

You tell me that fundimentalist Muslims, some of whom have declared a fatwa and jihaad against America, don't have a problem with the role women play in our society. Get real. It kills them and accordingly, it's one of the reasons they want to kill us. This is not all because of the support we've provided Israel.

[Kevster]

Originally posted by Yossarian

check yer pm's

Checked and replied. ;)

[dbax791]

Well, I just wanna throw up now. Anyone who argues that we are in the least bit responsible for an attack on civilians makes me sick. Fer chrissakes, there are children growing up w/o parents because of this.

Kevster I agree w/you 100%.

[Nanotech9]

Originally posted by dbax791
Well, I just wanna throw up now. Anyone who argues that we are in the least bit responsible for an attack on civilians makes me sick. Fer chrissakes, there are children growing up w/o parents because of this.

Kevster I agree w/you 100%.


"there are children growing up w/o parents because of this" sounds like a way to blindly ignore the facts of what happened...

Yosss. has some good points. UT MEMO actually summed it up better and used a proper analogy.

LPM did a good job or wrapping it up also. Were not to "BLAME", but we sure have done things to provoke actions like that towards us.

and still... theres no justifying the massacre(sp?) of 3000 people.

[Jenny]

Ok, I've watched all this tonight...

Now, regardless of who you feel is to blame.

How many of you are GLAD it happened? :rolleyes: *sigh*

[NuTs62]

Originally posted by Jenny
How many of you are GLAD it happened? :rolleyes: *sigh*

i for one am not.

[sbp]

http://home.earthlink.net/~sbp777/pics/problemheadupass.jpg

[Tommy Boomfiger]

whoa, Yossarian, I didnt know you had that in you, i just gained a new level of respect for you. while i dont agree with everything that you said, i am only going to comment on one point you made.
Originally posted by Yossarian
<snip>
some because of our presence, others because its what their religion tells them to do. we cannot collectivly understand their religion because we don't want to. their religion tells them if they are persecuted because of their belifs(sp?) to strike back with violence. did the christians not do that during the crusades? are they not doing that in ireland?
</snip>i dont believe that any religion of God (I consider Judism, Christianity and Islam to fall under those catagories. i belive most, not all, others are man made religions) will require its believers to do any acts such as those of the terroists. actions like the crusades and the 9-11 terror attacks are not religious, but acts of fools who try to justify thier actions to thier people by convincing them that it is God who wants this. what I understand about Islam is that it cannot be forced upon anybody, in order for someone to become a Muslim they must do so on thier own free will and cannot be done out of fear. to force someone to adopt Islam would be pointless because a Muslim must be one at heart, not just in words. Muslims also do not consider Islam to be a religion exactly, more like a way of life.

[latingirl]

Originally posted by LPMiller
assigning blame justifies it. You cannot justify the death of 3,000 people. Did America do things that may have pissed some people off? Yeah, sure.

But we are not to 'blame' for what happened. Only the people who did it can lay that claim.

:stupid:

[latingirl]

Originally posted by Tommy Boomfiger
what I understand about Islam is that it cannot be forced upon anybody, in order for someone to become a Muslim they must do so on thier own free will and cannot be done out of fear. to force someone to adopt Islam would be pointless because a Muslim must be one at heart, not just in words. Muslims also do not consider Islam to be a religion exactly, more like a way of life.

I may not understand as much about Islam as you do. But I do know that in Islamic countries christians are persecuted, jailed and put to death not for evangelism, but for conversion from Islam.

It's a VERY serious thing to denounce Allah and convert to ANY religion. I know this in dealing with my ex boyfriend and thinking that he would convert to Christianity (I was VERY naive back then). At the time, he was basically just telling me what I wanted to hear so we would stay together...but then he finally told me that he wasn't sure about denouncing and that I didn't realize what I was asking him to do. As much as it hurt, my God is more important to me so I broke up with him.

Ultimately, first he would have been cut off from his family here for good and second, he could never go back to visit Sierra Leone (West Africa) for fear of his life. I once also had an Egyptian man tell me that he had a son with a woman who was christian. I asked him what if his child decided to convert to christianity, he told me that he would have to kill him. He told me that it is legal for a family member to kill another in cases of conversion.

Anyhow, I just wanted to respond to that comment. No matter what the U.S. has done in terms of foreign policy, it doesn't leave us to blame for what happened. The blood of 3000 is on the hands of bin laden and his crew.

And I'm sure that there are many muslims in this world who are grieved about what happened and who are not in agreement with bin laden's lunacy. Whether thier religion tells them so or not...I'm sure human compassion prevails in the hearts of many.

[hapoo]

There is religion, and crap people do in the name of religion. If anyone cares to learn about islam, there is only one source i can point you to, and thats the koran.

[Tommy Boomfiger]

Originally posted by latingirl


I may not understand as much about Islam as you do. But I do know that in Islamic countries christians are persecuted, jailed and put to death not for evangelism, but for conversion from Islam.

It's a VERY serious thing to denounce Allah and convert to ANY religion. I know this in dealing with my ex boyfriend and thinking that he would convert to Christianity (I was VERY naive back then). At the time, he was basically just telling me what I wanted to hear so we would stay together...but then he finally told me that he wasn't sure about denouncing and that I didn't realize what I was asking him to do. As much as it hurt, my God is more important to me so I broke up with him.

Ultimately, first he would have been cut off from his family here for good and second, he could never go back to visit Sierra Leone (West Africa) for fear of his life. I once also had an Egyptian man tell me that he had a son with a woman who was christian. I asked him what if his child decided to convert to christianity, he told me that he would have to kill him. He told me that it is legal for a family member to kill another in cases of conversion.

Anyhow, I just wanted to respond to that comment. No matter what the U.S. has done in terms of foreign policy, it doesn't leave us to blame for what happened. The blood of 3000 is on the hands of bin laden and his crew.

And I'm sure that there are many muslims in this world who are grieved about what happened and who are not in agreement with bin laden's lunacy. Whether thier religion tells them so or not...I'm sure human compassion prevails in the hearts of many. the answer is right in your statement, in Islamic countries people, including gov't, interpret Islam in thier own extremest views.
Edited, see below.

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by faither
because we live in a free society (and we do despite what some of the deep-thinkers around here would lead you to believe) and they can't handle that, I'll cut you some slack.

Just because I see what the government is trying to do doesnt make me anti-america. It in fact makes me more pro America than you blind followers of the administrations rhetoric. at least I know what America stands for and what values it represents. You only know what the President tells you, filtered through Fox News or CNN's biases.

Bill O'Reilly or James Carville are not the voice of America, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and Alexander Hamilton are.

I love how its almost like I'm being attacked for knowing and voicing the opinions of the Founding Fathers. Dont you see whats happening? You are calling me "un-american" or "unpatriotic" for simply stating the beliefs and writings of Thomas Jefferson and other great political thinkers. I hope you can understand this, because if not, you and your group are in serious trouble.

[Cantacuzene]

I'm no doctor of Islamic theology, but I do know a fair bit about Islam, and you guys dont know what the f*** you're talking about.

[Cantacuzene]

Latingirl, you say you dont know much about Islam, then you proceed to tell us all these incorrect assumptions you have. Why? To show how little you know?


But I do know that in Islamic countries christians are persecuted, jailed and put to death not for evangelism, but for conversion from Islam.

Thats not true. The evangelicals who were kidnapped and killed in the Philippenes were killed by rebels and outlaws, not by th governments. Another news flash for you: if you go to Iran, which is a hardline conservative islamic country you better know BEFORE you go what the legal issues of preaching Christianity are. You shouldnt be suprised when you get into trouble. Ignorance of the law is no excuse to commit a crime. Also, its not against the law to preach in all islamic countries. Thats only banned in a few backward, extremist countries, dont assume its a universal islamic law. Lemme pose a question to you, what would you assume most redneck hick southern baptists in alabama if some Iranian guy started preaching islam to them? Yeah, it wouldnt be pretty. Same if you go to some 'redneck' backward place in an islamic country and preach the gospels. Understand?


I once also had an Egyptian man tell me that he had a son with a woman who was christian. I asked him what if his child decided to convert to christianity, he told me that he would have to kill him. He told me that it is legal for a family member to kill another in cases of conversion.

He is pulling your leg. Egypt is one of the most 'western' islamic countries. THERE IS A MCDONALDS 2 MILES AWAY FROM THE SPHINX! They dont live in a society where you kill someone for as dumb a reason as conversion to another religion. You were lied to, and you bought it.

Tommy's post...

but, from what i understand, when a Muslim converts to another religion the punishment is death.

Thats ridiculous and untrue. You said it yourself. They only want people who believe with their heart and soul. If you dont bleive, they dont want you any more. Maybe under extremists like the Taliban and some weird Indonesian terrorist groups is that the case but, as I hope is clear by now, THOSE PEOPLE DO NOT SPEAK FOR ISLAM, much the same as saying David Duke does not speak fro Christianity.

[Tommy Boomfiger]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
Tommy's post...


Thats ridiculous and untrue. You said it yourself. They only want people who believe with their heart and soul. If you dont bleive, they dont want you any more. Maybe under extremists like the Taliban and some weird Indonesian terrorist groups is that the case but, as I hope is clear by now, THOSE PEOPLE DO NOT SPEAK FOR ISLAM, much the same as saying David Duke does not speak fro Christianity. i thought ive read this before, but because of your post i decided to do some research and couldnt find anything about it so i edited my post. the last thing i want to do is spread around any false info.

[Tse How]

But America is to blame. Why?
Because we have committed so many more attrocities to other countries, throughout our short history, than many of us will ever care to dig up in history books--most of which has been done for personal gain (usually on the economic side). Our government and what it has done in the past and continues to do in the present, can sometimes be so ugly.

With that being said. 9/11 is something that should not have happened. There is nothing right about it and anyone who thinks so should be crucified.

My point is simply this. What goes around, comes around. And it came around for America.

[faither]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene

Just because I see what the government is trying to do doesnt make me anti-america. It in fact makes me more pro America than you blind followers of the administrations rhetoric. at least I know what America stands for and what values it represents. You only know what the President tells you, filtered through Fox News or CNN's biases.

Bill O'Reilly or James Carville are not the voice of America, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and Alexander Hamilton are.

I love how its almost like I'm being attacked for knowing and voicing the opinions of the Founding Fathers. Dont you see whats happening? You are calling me "un-american" or "unpatriotic" for simply stating the beliefs and writings of Thomas Jefferson and other great political thinkers. I hope you can understand this, because if not, you and your group are in serious trouble.

Explain to me what the government is trying to do. Obviously, I don't have the same crystal ball as you. As for being a blind follower of the adminstration; you're nuts. Politically, I follow no one -- blindly or otherwise. Actually, on the old political spectrum, I fall left of center (in college I worked for the Mondale campaign in 1984).

I understand the voices of America and feel that a common mistake many with a limited understanding of history make is by believing that American critical political thought ended with Jefferson, Madison and Hamilton. Keep reading and studying, expand your horizon past the 18th century.

Maybe you didn't mean to quote my posting??? Who's your beef with anyway? The postings I've taken umbrage with were from Yossarian. Is this another persona of yours?

Who's attacking you and what Founding Fathers' opinions do you feel <edit> you're being bashed for?

What group am I part of? I'd appreciate any insight you may be able to provide.

[Butch]

May I make a strong recommendation for reading??

Please read Thomas Friedman's Op-Ed pieces in the NY Times . . .2x a week. As far as I am concerned, he is the most insightful American mind in delving into the political, religious and economic issues involved on all sides of the issue. He has written several books that are fantastic . . .

"From Beirut to Jerusalem" . . . originally written in 1989 (He's been on this stuff for a long time)
"The Lexus & The Olive Tree" - basically a book on the struggle between economic (globalization) and religious values in Middle Eastern countries
"Longitudes & Attitudes"

Longitudes & Attitudes is for the most part a collection of his post-9/11 columns . . . with some additional material. It was just released and is a best seller (Just $15.60 at Amazon.com). I would HIGHLY recommend people read it if you are inclined to place "blame" anywhere.

Also, the NY Times was offering an online archive of his columns for $5.95 for a while. I'm not sure if that is still available since the book is now out.

Once again, I STRONGLY recommend these books.

[Cantacuzene]

Oh, I know American political thought didn't stop after the revolution, and make no mistake, I am well read on the subject of modern political thought as well as older. I'm just telling you that when I read various political ideologies, the ones that click with me are Lockean theory and I agree with it almost 100%.

The thing that angers me, is the politicians use Lockean rhetoric while at the same time enacting legislation opposite of it. I tire of listening to them. When I watch C-span I become angry after like 20 minutes or less.

[faither]

What aspect of Lockean theory are you speaking of? The most basic of Locke's Natural Rights is physical security. When the physical security of a sovereign land's citizenry is challenged (and I think we can agree that the killing of 3,000 innocents is a challenge to security), Locke would say that a just government has an obligation to defend its people even if the defense contained elements of punishment.

While Locke's philosophies greatly infuenced the framers, as the country has evolved you can easily make the argument that his importance from a practical standpoint -- as opposed to theoretical -- has decreased during the past two hundred years.

I would still like your response to the questions in my last post. I still have no idea what the hell you were talking about in the passage of yours I quoted. Feel free to email me if you'd be more comfortable.

[sbp]

Originally posted by Tse How
But America is to blame. Why?
Because we have committed so many more attrocities to other countries, throughout our short history, than many of us will ever care to dig up in history books--most of which has been done for personal gain (usually on the economic side). Our government and what it has done in the past and continues to do in the present, can sometimes be so ugly.

With that being said. 9/11 is something that should not have happened. There is nothing right about it and anyone who thinks so should be crucified.

My point is simply this. What goes around, comes around. And it came around for America. Most other countries have things not to be proud of in their history.

America has also done many good things {much more so than bad things}. Where is all the credit for those actions? Nowhere apparently.

bin Laden hates Americans and others not for what they have done, but for we are. They want their twisted version of Islam to take over the world. Any infidel who doesn't agree has to be killed.

[CornMonkey]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
Latingirl, you say you dont know much about Islam, then you proceed to tell us all these incorrect assumptions you have. Why? To show how little you know?



Thats not true. The evangelicals who were kidnapped and killed in the Philippenes were killed by rebels and outlaws, not by th governments. Another news flash for you: if you go to Iran, which is a hardline conservative islamic country you better know BEFORE you go what the legal issues of preaching Christianity are. You shouldnt be suprised when you get into trouble. Ignorance of the law is no excuse to commit a crime. Also, its not against the law to preach in all islamic countries. Thats only banned in a few backward, extremist countries, dont assume its a universal islamic law. Lemme pose a question to you, what would you assume most redneck hick southern baptists in alabama if some Iranian guy started preaching islam to them? Yeah, it wouldnt be pretty. Same if you go to some 'redneck' backward place in an islamic country and preach the gospels. Understand?



He is pulling your leg. Egypt is one of the most 'western' islamic countries. THERE IS A MCDONALDS 2 MILES AWAY FROM THE SPHINX! They dont live in a society where you kill someone for as dumb a reason as conversion to another religion. You were lied to, and you bought it.

Tommy's post...


Thats ridiculous and untrue. You said it yourself. They only want people who believe with their heart and soul. If you dont bleive, they dont want you any more. Maybe under extremists like the Taliban and some weird Indonesian terrorist groups is that the case but, as I hope is clear by now, THOSE PEOPLE DO NOT SPEAK FOR ISLAM, much the same as saying David Duke does not speak fro Christianity.
first of all, why do you bring up the philipines? did someone refer to them in the previous posts? i couldn't find any reference to it. frankly, i find your example irrelevant.

secondly, whoever told you that conversion to christianity is against the law is pulling YOUR leg. egypt, morocco, and other north african nations that are "modern and western" are still foundationally muslim. sure, these governments will NEVER kill an american or any westerner for trying to convert someone to christianity but you can be sure that he/she WILL be detained at the very least and subsequently removed from the country. as for the person who was converted, he must denounce his coversion and/or his christian beliefs or face criminal charges.

morocco for example is a popular tourist stop for many people. yet, they still uphold their islamic traditions. over there, you can talk about Christ in relation to your own life, you can even sing about Christ...but you CANNOT talk about Christ, or anything about christianity, to try to convert someone to that religion. why? because it IS against the law. yes, even morocco has laws to deal with "as dumb a reason as this."

saudi arabia is also one of the most "western islamic countries" but they still have public beheadings for law-breakers. caught dealing drugs? off with your head. caught cheating on your husband? off with your head.

my church has a team go to morocco every year and they must go through underground contacts during their stay there...for a reason! and when they want to pass out christian booklets to moroccans, they must travel to spain to do so. "westernized" islamic countries such as morocco may seem "too civilized" to carry out such laws to you, but make no mistake about it, these laws do exist.

[Cantacuzene]

Faither, to answer your question, it wasnt anything in particular that you or anyone else posted, but the sum of all the posts on the subject. If you take everything that has been said, people are seemingly painted me as the bad guy or wrong for simply knowing and suscribing to the philosophy our country was based on. I didnt mean to sound like I was only attacking you or even attacking you at all, but I just got frustrated having to explain the same point over and over again so I vented a bit.

To the other subject...

Granted the influence of John Locke has diminished lately, and thats my point. People are forgetting. Thats bad. When people start thinking the "1st amendment goes too far," then we have a serious problem.

YEs, physical security was a Lockean principle. However he didnt mean it in the way our government does. Locke meant that the government should establish a police force to protect you from brigands and bandits and establish an army to protect us from foreign enemies. He never justified limiting our other Rights in order to protect that one better. The most important right for Locke was private property.

To take it further, James Madison and the other framers of the Constitution were quite clear that they feared a powerful federal government and they took all the steps they could to limit it.

It is no coincidence that the First Amendment is the first one listed and not placed in a later order. It was cleary designed to be the most important. Americans should cherish the first amendment above all else.

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by CornMonkey
secondly, whoever told you that conversion to christianity is against the law is pulling YOUR leg. egypt, morocco, and other north african nations that are "modern and western" are still foundationally muslim. sure, these governments will NEVER kill an american or any westerner for trying to convert someone to christianity but you can be sure that he/she WILL be detained at the very least and subsequently removed from the country. as for the person who was converted, he must denounce his coversion and/or his christian beliefs or face criminal charges.


And knowing that, why would you go to that country trying to convert people? Thats my point. You know the law, so dont break the law. In america we have the 1st amendment, these countries dont. We may think the laws are unjust and maybe they are, but its not our place to judge them. When the People of those countries want change they will get it.

Like I said, any missionaries who go there to preach get what they deserve. They should know the laws of the land they are in. Ignorance of the law is no excuse to break it. Cant preach in their country? Boohoo. Don't "cast your pearls before swine" anyway.

[dbax791]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene

In america we have the 1st amendment, these countries dont. We may think the laws are unjust and maybe they are, but its not our place to judge them. When the People of those countries want change they will get it.


Umm...no. When we threw over the taliban, didn't people start to re-open video shops, shave beards, etc.? In '91 didn't the "elite" republican guard of Iraq surrender faster than France to anyone who looked western?

The "people" somex are repressed by the folks w/guns, so I gotta disagree.

[Pinkgirl36]

Dopey's main reason for being glad about it is, he is glad it was not a nuke, no matter what there would have been an attack and the one they did was little compaired to what could have been done.

[sbp]

Being glad people died isn't cool. Something wrong with that boy.

[CornMonkey]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
And knowing that, why would you go to that country trying to convert people?
the answer is in the bible. i don't think i need to give a reason here.


Originally posted by Pinkgirl36
Dopey's main reason for being glad about it is, he is glad it was not a nuke, no matter what there would have been an attack and the one they did was little compaired to what could have been done.
exactly why is he glad again? with a reason like that, it would only make sense that he'd be more glad if it WAS a nuke.

essentially, this is what i determined from that reasoning(correct me if i'm wrong):
"i'm glad that lots of things were destroyed. i'm glad that lots of people died. i'm glad children lost parents. america had it coming. america deserved it. but a nuclear bomb, which would have destroyed MORE things and killed MORE people, would make it bad." to me, this doesn't make sense. unfortunately, dopey isn't here to speak for himself so i won't press this matter further until he returns.

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by CornMonkey

the answer is in the bible. i don't think i need to give a reason here.


I dont want to piss on your idea of what religion is, but those people in Morrocco are quite happy being muslims and as far as they are concerned they have the correct message from God.

All that said, go there and try to convert them if you want. Dont be suprised when you run into legal trouble. Its your fault for breaking a law consciously.

Would you listen to a muslim's message if he came to your house trying to convert you? Why would you expect them to return the favor to you? I bet if a muslim came to convert you, you would start throwing your religion at him or just get angry. Dont be suprised when similar things happen back at you.

[whitak24]

ok, having been gone from the forums, i missed most of the "debate" in this thread, but i have to put in my $.02:

first, i am not "glad" the attacks happened. it is true that the attacks could have been worse, and therefore it is fortunate that more people were not killed. however, it is a small measure of solace that "only" 3000 people were killed. they were innocents who died and that is tragic.

in addition, i do not think we are any more "prepared" for future attacks (even enhanced airline security isn't that great) as a result of the 9/11 tragedy, so i don't think that these "smaller" attacks will necessarily have the effect of preventing future "larger" attacks. more tragedies are to come.

second, in relation to whether the U.S. should bear part of the "blame" for the attacks.....i would say yes (to a certain extent, and depending on how you define "blame") for several reasons:
1.) our complacent security and poor intelligence coordination made it relatively easy for the attackers to assemble and carry out the attacks.
2.) our ideals stand in direct contrast to the ideals of the attackers. (whether or not these are the ideals of islam is irrelevant -- to bin Laden and company, the "Great American Satan" stands against everything that they believe and the sort of global society they want to build.)
3.) american foreign policy has built a climate in which radical islamic idealogues (such as bin Laden) can gain a following and their ideas can gain acceptance among people who have no opportunity and are without hope. if america had focused on positive economic development and nation-building in the middle east and other areas around the world for the past 50 years, i think we would see a markedly different social and economic climate, and i think it would be nearly impossible for someone like bin Laden to build up a following.

now in the short-term, i think it is possible to blame some of the resentment against the U.S. on our "intrusions" into other countries. but in the long run, positive relationships pay great dividends. if we hadn't gone into Japan and Europe after WWII and helped rebuild those countries and create democratic governments, would be we in nearly as good a place as we are now? i don't think so.

third, in relation to cpugeek's comments:
i think you people are being way too hard on him. granted, i don't agree with most of the things that he said. i also don't think he has his facts perfected. but come on guys, he's a junior in high school. developing the ability to think critically, cull information from a variety of sources and separate the facts from the opinion, and then use all of this to form a well-rounded opinion takes time. when i was a junior in high school, there were a lot of things that i thought and a lot of papers that i wrote that i look back on now and just shake my head. it wasn't till i was a junior or senior in college before i really started to develop the ability to critically examine ideas in the context of other schools of thought and come to a logical opinion.

the important thing is that cpu is thinking and is trying to critically examine what is going on in the world and link it to other subjects that he knows about and form a cohesive opinion. if, in 5 or 6 years, he hasn't deepened his thinking any, then that will be a pity, and he'll be more like Cantacuzene rather than jase71. until then, i think calling what he says "drival" and telling him that he deserved to get beat up for what he thinks is pretty crappy, imo. (the people who really need a kick in the jimmies are the ignorant rednecks in pennsylvania who don't want to hear any thoughts expressed besides "u.s. u.s. rah rah rah" :rolleyes: )

i have more opinions, but i'm running short on time, so i'll shut up for now.