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sbp
09-15-2002, 12:38 AM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-411040,00.html/

A FATHER-OF-TWO who stabbed a “career criminal” to death with a bread knife after finding him burgling his family’s home was found guilty of manslaughter yesterday.

Barry-Lee Hastings, 25, shook his head and fought back tears as an Old Bailey jury cleared him of murder but found him guilty of killing Roger Williams.

Hastings, who was remanded in custody to be sentenced next month, faces a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.

Amid cries from his family in the public gallery, Hastings shouted “look after the kids” to his estranged wife Nicola.

She replied “love you” before he was led away to the cells.

The prosecution claimed that Hastings had overstepped the mark and “meted out his own form of punishment” when he stabbed Williams 12 times, mostly in the back. Hastings insisted that instinct took over. He believed that he was protecting his children, a boy of four and girl of two, and their mother. He later discovered the family was not at their home in Tottenham, North London.

The case has drawn comparisons with the jailing of Tony Martin, 57, who shot dead Fred Barras, 16, as he burgled his home in Emneth Hungate, Norfolk. His life sentence was later cut to five years and the conviction reduced to manslaughter on appeal. Malcolm Starr, from the Tony Martin Support Group, said that Hastings should never have had to face a jury.

“Anybody who enters your property should do so at their own risk and the person who owns the property should be allowed to defend it however he sees fit,” Mr Starr said. “Who can predict what effect fear will have on any one person?” The jury of six men and six women found Hastings guilty of manslaughter on a 10-2 majority verdict after 13 hours of deliberation.

Williams, 35, who had many criminal convictions, including some for violent offences, was wanted by police. He had carefully selected the property where Hastings’s wife and children live.

Hastings, a gas engineer from Wood Green, North London, told the court that when he visited the home in January, he found the front door had been forced.

He picked up a bread knife “to scare” the intruder who was upstairs. But, when they came face to face, Williams charged down the stairs and appeared to attack him with a machete, he claimed.

No machete was found, but the court was told that Hastings may have mistaken a jemmy that Williams was carrying that he had used to force entry to the home.

A struggle ensued during which Williams was repeatedly stabbed. Hastings suffered a hand injury. After the fight spilled outside, Williams staggered away.

Hastings said he panicked and threw away the blood-stained clothing and knife after realising that he might have injured Mr Williams and be in trouble.

The court was told Williams had suffered 12 wounds, three of which were potentially fatal. One knife blow penetrated the heart. He died on the way to hospital.

After the brawl, Hastings discovered that his family was staying with relatives. He said that he had intended to call the police before the fight, but he feared that his children were in danger. “I thought I heard my daughter crying,” he said. “I thought I heard men’s voices. I thought someone had the children up there. I thought something was happening to them. I decided to help my family and scare whoever was there off. I never intended to stab anyone.”

Peter Kyte, QC, for the prosecution, told the jury: “The law recognises a man is entitled to defend himself, his family and his property only if his action does not go beyond the reasonable and the necessary.

“There is no doubt Mr Hastings stumbled across a burglary. There is no doubt that Roger Williams was a thoroughly bad hat in the eyes of the law. But, as a human being, he is just as entitled to the freedom to live as anyone else. We argue that, in this case, alas, this man overstepped the mark and went some distance beyond that.”

Outside the court Nicola Hastings said: “It’s wrong. There’s no justice.” Anthony Branley, solicitor for Hastings, said an appeal would be launched. “We are shocked by the jury’s verdict in this case,” he said.

“In our view, the evidence clearly showed that Barry-Lee Hastings at all times acted in self-defence when attacked by an armed burglar who had a long history of burglary and violence and who was on the run from the police at the time of this incident.

“Most people will recognise that the verdict today represents an appalling miscarriage of justice and flies in the face of common sense. We shall do everything possible to ensure that this conviction is quashed on appeal.”

John Davies, Williams’s cousin, said: “Despite Roger’s previous background, he was entitled to a fair trial like Mr Hastings. It is a tragic case.”

Hastings, originally from Glasgow, has a conviction for burglary and police cautions for carrying a knife and causing actual bodily harm.

hapoo
09-15-2002, 12:43 AM
If their bread knifes are anything like the ones we have... man that must have hurt. The burglar shouldn't have been in the house to begin with, but 12 times :eek:

Tommy Boomfiger
09-15-2002, 12:43 AM
i find it so sad when stuff like this happens, the guy was defending his home and more importantly his family. dont prosecutors have anything better to do than go after people like this :shake:

brain
09-15-2002, 12:46 AM
I suppose the guy's best defense was "in the heat of the moment". Shiz... I probably would've stabbed the burglar too.... But not 12 times... Or with a butter knife.

sbp
09-15-2002, 12:48 AM
This did happen in enlightened :rolleyes: Britain. Is it any wonder crime there is going up and violent crime is higher per capita than the US?


Originally posted by brain
I suppose the guy's best defense was "in the heat of the moment". Shiz... I probably would've stabbed the burglar too.... But not 12 times... Or with a butter knife. :johnwoo2:

CornMonkey
09-15-2002, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by sbp
Peter Kyte, QC, for the prosecution, told the jury: “The law recognises a man is entitled to defend himself, his family and his property only if his action does not go beyond the reasonable and the necessary.
unfortunately, the US has a law similar to this. if a burglar comes into your home carrying a bat, you can't shoot him with your gun. if he comes in with nothing at all, you can't beat him with a bat. i forgot what the law was called but if you use a weapon that's "more lethal" than the one the burglar's carrying, then he can sue you. it's a travesty...

Tommy Boomfiger
09-15-2002, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by brain
I suppose the guy's best defense was "in the heat of the moment". Shiz... I probably would've stabbed the burglar too.... But not 12 times... Or with a butter knife. yeah, if you had a better knife you wouldnt have to stab the guy 12 times.

now if it was Leons house, there might be 12 holes in the guy :heh:

Tommy Boomfiger
09-15-2002, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by CornMonkey

unfortunately, the US has a law similar to this. if a burglar comes into your home carrying a bat, you can't shoot him with your gun. if he comes in with nothing at all, you can't beat him with a bat. i forgot what the law was called but if you use a weapon that's "more lethal" than the one the burglar's carrying, then he can sue you. it's a travesty... ok, hold on mr burglar dude, is that a bat? oh, its a shot gun. hold on a sec, let me go get something equivelent to that :rolleyes: :angry:

Ladogaboy
09-15-2002, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by Tommy Boomfiger
now if it was Leons house, there might be 12 holes in the guy :heh:

hehe, and that would only be one shot from a shotgun. :hehehmm:

brain
09-15-2002, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by CornMonkey

unfortunately, the US has a law similar to this. if a burglar comes into your home carrying a bat, you can't shoot him with your gun. if he comes in with nothing at all, you can't beat him with a bat. i forgot what the law was called but if you use a weapon that's "more lethal" than the one the burglar's carrying, then he can sue you. it's a travesty...

This is why you shoot him on site and make sure he's dead. If he doesn't have a weapon, just plant one on him. I knew this 9mm w/o serial numbers would come in handy one day. :P Man... If that happened in the middle east, they would just chop his hands off for breaking into your house. One of the few places in the world where "eye for an eye" still applies.

Tommy Boomfiger
09-15-2002, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by brain
If that happened in the middle east, they would just chop his hands off for breaking into your house. One of the few places in the world where "eye for an eye" still applies. too bad over there youre guilty before proven innocent. though, they do have the lowest crime rates in the world

Grimm
09-15-2002, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by Tommy Boomfiger
yeah, if you had a better knife you wouldnt have to stab the guy 12 times.

now if it was Leons house, there might be 12 holes in the guy :heh:

If it was my house there would be no holes in the guy... there would be two halves though... the top half and the botton half.

Showtime
09-15-2002, 05:10 AM
you never know what you'll do until the situation arises.......

-jel:halo:

Burzhui
09-15-2002, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by brain


This is why you shoot him on site and make sure he's dead. If he doesn't have a weapon, just plant one on him. I knew this 9mm w/o serial numbers would come in handy one day. :P Man... If that happened in the middle east, they would just chop his hands off for breaking into your house. One of the few places in the world where "eye for an eye" still applies.


yea but the unregistered, unlisted, 9mm is useless if it's your house, because then you get questioned, and this and that and where is your gun, oh it's unregistered, where did you get it.... this is your cell, his name is bubba.... do you Bubba take "brain" do be your lawfully wedded he-bitch.... you know it's just weird what can happen:dodgy:

In any case i seldom thought of buying a serial numberless 9mm

Jenny
09-15-2002, 06:52 AM
Ummm, no, I think he meant he had a "throw-away" gun like police on tv & in books (real life?) do. One that isn't registered to him, etc, so that he can drop it on the burglar and act like the burglar carried it in...

Of course, correct me if I'm wrong brain. :)

jujubees
09-15-2002, 12:21 PM
A bread knife has a serrated edge ... slightly more dangerous than a butter knife. :eek:

http://www.theforumisdown.com/uploadfiles/0802/bread.jpg

cactus
09-15-2002, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Tommy Boomfiger
ok, hold on mr burglar dude, is that a bat? oh, its a shot gun. hold on a sec, let me go get something equivelent to that :rolleyes: :angry:

on the same chain of thought...

ok mr burglar, I have just stabbed you once, have I subdue you yet? No, hold on, let me stab you again... :rolleyes:

Dave_7
09-15-2002, 12:43 PM
Cripes... that sickens me.

Who made the choice here? The burglar. The burglar chose to roll the dice and take his chances by BREAKING THE LAW and burglarizing someone's house.

You've got to pay to play. There's got to be something for the burglar to lose. Otherwise, it's like gambling with someone else’s money.

That burglar would have lost the use of both knees via a 9mm, if the situation occurred here. He should know better than to come in to my house, uninvited.

If you insist that you live in a civilized world, then civilization tells you that your house is your domain. If an uninvited individual violates the threshold of your domain, civilized mentality tells us that the violator intends harm (i.e. undesired consequences). Survival instincts are, then, fair game. Who knows the extent of this violator's intentions? Just him. And that's not reassuring enough for me to manually override the survival instincts.




Stop protecting criminals.







Dave.

g222leav
09-15-2002, 12:55 PM
i always joked about a butter knife being in the school handbook for illegal weapons...

but anyways, if a burglar came in and threatned the safety of the ones i cared for, i'd most definatly make him pay. but i'd kick the **** out of him until the cops came.

sleepminded
09-15-2002, 01:30 PM
if some1 tries to burglerize my house, and i find him...he'll get his leg impaled by my sword :D the whole 41" of its blade...

but he wont die, and he tried to rob me anyway...i WOULD just impale hjim with the sword and like...half kill him...but now that this happen...i think i'll just get rid of his legs so he cant run :)

Apex
09-15-2002, 02:20 PM
12 times might sound excessive, but do you know how long it takes to swing a knife 12 times when the adrenaline is pumping? I'm guessing the entire thing could have happened in the space of 1-2 minutes at most, while the brain is working on compressed time.

Dave_7
09-15-2002, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Apex
12 times might sound excessive, but do you know how long it takes to swing a knife 12 times when the adrenaline is pumping? I'm guessing the entire thing could have happened in the space of 1-2 minutes at most, while the brain is working on compressed time.

That's right... breach the laws of civilization and prepare to feel the wrath of some some seriously uncivilized $hit.




Dave.

whitak24
09-15-2002, 08:04 PM
that is crazy.

if someone breaks into your house, they should realize they are taking their lives into their hands.

maybe everyone needs to have signs up that state the limited liabilities that the property owners have and ask all people to sign the waver, indicated that failure to sign the waiver will imply consent to all conditions of entry :rolleyes:

ufcrusher
09-15-2002, 10:42 PM
In the US, its actually relatively clear cut. Due to the rules of self defense, you can use lethal force in response to deadly force, for the protection of your self or family, but not your property. There is also a minority of states which requires that you retreat before using deadly force, if you can safetly do so...although you never need to do so in your house.

So, in this case, the guy attacks a burglar who it didnt say was armed, when all he was doing was robbing his house. Since there was no threat to his life, he didnt have the privilege of self defense...and he is guilty.

Speedfreak
09-15-2002, 11:01 PM
This has happened in the US, too. A burgler gets killed becuase a guy is trying to protect his property/family and is convicted of manslaughter. I guess the right to bear arms does not include using them. :disa:

Apex
09-15-2002, 11:07 PM
I've actually heard of a case where the burglar tripped over the window sill leaving the house he just robbed with an armful of electronics. He broke his leg, and sued.

sbp
09-15-2002, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Apex
I've actually heard of a case where the burglar tripped over the window sill leaving the house he just robbed with an armful of electronics. He broke his leg, and sued. Leave it to lawyers to make everything complicated.


http://home.earthlink.net/~sbp777/pics/trespass.jpg

hapoo
09-15-2002, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by ufcrusher
So, in this case, the guy attacks a burglar who it didnt say was armed, when all he was doing was robbing his house. Since there was no threat to his life, he didnt have the privilege of self defense...and he is guilty.


If someones in my house, i doubt i'm going to check to see if he's armed before kicking his ass. Isn't there a law that prevents people who are commiting a crime from suing because of the results of their actions.

Ladogaboy
09-16-2002, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by sbp
Leave it to lawyers to make everything complicated.


http://home.earthlink.net/~sbp777/pics/trespass.jpg

Haha, I just like the sign, trespassers will be violated. :hihi:

molecularfire
09-16-2002, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by ufcrusher
In the US, its actually relatively clear cut. Due to the rules of self defense, you can use lethal force in response to deadly force, for the protection of your self or family, but not your property. There is also a minority of states which requires that you retreat before using deadly force, if you can safetly do so...although you never need to do so in your house.

So, in this case, the guy attacks a burglar who it didnt say was armed, when all he was doing was robbing his house. Since there was no threat to his life, he didnt have the privilege of self defense...and he is guilty.


He picked up a bread knife “to scare” the intruder who was upstairs. But, when they came face to face, Williams charged down the stairs and appeared to attack him with a machete, he claimed.

No machete was found, but the court was told that Hastings may have mistaken a jemmy that Williams was carrying that he had used to force entry to the home.

A struggle ensued during which Williams was repeatedly stabbed. Hastings suffered a hand injury. After the fight spilled outside, Williams staggered away.

The guy had a Jimmy. Depending on what kind he had, it could easily have been used as a weapon. Furthermore, since Hastings suffered a hand injury, (while this by no means proves that the burgler used the jummy as a weapon) it is more likely than not that he did.

Hopefully, they will repeal stupid laws like this. If someone breaks into my house (I'd like to argue that if someone breaks into someone's house, a threat to the occupants is implied) there is a good possibility that I am going to jail at least for aggravated assult. Better me go to jail than a family member of mine dies.

CynJon
09-16-2002, 01:52 PM
Gun control laws in England are so out of control that burglars know that they can enter most houses with relative safety from being shot. They know this, and use it to their advantage.

The real question in this case is whether or not the guy had a reasonable belief that his family was in danger. I know that if the burglar HAD been harming the guy's family, 12 stab wounds would be getting off EASY...:angry:

I was going to post the same pic as sbp put up...:heh:

mcs328
09-16-2002, 02:30 PM
I took a business law class and for some reason we had a case (nothing to do with business law) where this guy kept getting robbed. So he set up a shotgun whenever this door was opened and he made a pit. The same person kept robbing him until he got shot by the shotgun while attempting to rob the house the same way and fell into a pit trap..full if sharp implementations.

The burgular lived and successfully sued. The guy lost b/c he wasn't present to defend his home and I guess it's illegal to set up booby traps.