so when will the U.S. be in Iraq?

[ribitch]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/10/iraq.us.ap/index.html

Daschle is now supporting bush and "the Senate voted 75-25 on Thursday to end delaying tactics and open the way for final expected approval of the measure"

I say by mid november.

[blueindian]

we're already there.
http://www.debka.com/

[WhiskeyPapa]

Operation Desert Storm began 5 days after congress granted President George H. W. Bush the authority to wage war.

[ribitch]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/10/iraq.us/index.html

The House of Representatives voted 296-133 Thursday to give President Bush the authority to go to war to disarm Iraq.

[kimchicowboy]

ok. so the vote happened and it passed. a lot of people seem to forget the fact that the bush administration wants to use force as a last resort thing. we'll just have to see what exactly that means though.

[eSDee]

Originally posted by kimchicowboy
ok. so the vote happened and it passed. a lot of people seem to forget the fact that the bush administration wants to use force as a last resort thing. we'll just have to see what exactly that means though.

:heh: Oh wait, you were kidding right? Bush wants to kick some ass and that's that. You saw how when Sodom said ok to inspections, Bush was all "well that's not good enough we're gonna kick your ass anyways!"

Seriously, I think the goverment is in a "shoot first ask questions later" mind set.

[kimchicowboy]

well, unless you can give me a quote to back up your "well that's not good enough we're gonna kick your ass anyways!" statement, i'm going to go with the quote i read in the LA Times yesterday where powell states what i said. :shrug:

[eSDee]

Originally posted by kimchicowboy
well, unless you can give me a quote to back up your "well that's not good enough we're gonna kick your ass anyways!" statement, i'm going to go with the quote i read in the LA Times yesterday where powell states what i said. :shrug:

I believe we've talked about this before, when the weapons inspection demands were first made. If I have time later I'll try and dig em up for you.

[SonyGuy]

I say bomb the hell out of them. Send a whole fleet of B2 bombers and drop all you got. Then maybe Afghanistan and all those other countries will stop acting stupid. Weapons inspections my ass. That crap never works anyway. In the first place Iraq doesn't want the U.S. there so you think they're actually going to allow inspectors to find anything? Hell no! I say quit f******* around and just do it already dammit. Bush made the big mistake of not going all the way in Desert Storm. He didn't reach the source, Saddam, because the bastard is still in power dreaming of a day when he can stomp all over the U.S. Well, like they say if the man even dreams of beating us he should wake up and apologize. Bomb the hell out of them. And don't say oh... well... but if we take him out, someone even more horrible might come into power! Well, no, not if you do your damn job. There won't be a man over there with enough balls to sit in Saddams chair and talk ****. You guys can flame me and say I am ignorant and don't know what the hell I'm talking about, or you can give me a time out or a ban. I'm just tired of people "talking" about going to war and not doing anything while they make weapons over there. If Iraq had the kinds of weapons and in the quantity that we have, I guarantee you they damn well would not be sitting over there talking about whether or not to bomb the U.S. over a nice cup of coffee or whatever it is they drink...

[hapoo]

SonyGuy:
I say Saddam should bomb the hell out of everyone you care about instead. I don't like Saddam any more that anyone else, but the fact is he hasn't done sh*t in 10 years. Now we feel all high and mighty after bombing the crap out of the desert called Afghanistan and feel like jumping on Iraqs throat, and guess what, the people who are going to be most effected are going to be the civilians who are already living in crappy conditions, not Saddam. There is more to this war than just going after Saddam cause he has weapons. America's mistake wasn't in Desert Storm, it was much earlier when they decided to screw around with middle east politics when they handed Saddam all his weapon tech. on a platter.

[Napoleon54]

The facts that terrorists want to blow up US buildings, kill US civilians, and disrupt the US economy, and that Saddam is considered a serious threat to national security are big huge blinking signs that something is wrong. No other country in the world has these types of problems. No other country needs to consider terrorism as a serious threat. Yes, you have suicide bombings and such in Israel, but that's a religiously charged conflict and the causes of that are obvious. But nobody seems really concerned about WHY terrorists, Saddam, and a whole sh*tload of other groups HATE the United States. Until we address that issue, the only things that the "War on Terror" and a war against Iraq are going to accomplish will be to treat some of the symptoms of that hatred, not the cause. Sure we might find and punish a few terrorists, but the important thing should be to find out why those people are terrorists to begin with. There will continue to be plenty of people willing to step up and carry the terrorists' torch, unless we address the reasons why they do this. We'd be stupid to believe that this hatred has no cause.

The US is an arrogant country and Americans are arrogant people. We throw our weight around and generally will do whatever it takes to get our way. The entire world knows this and disrespects us because of it. But nobody will tell us to back off because we have the biggest guns, the strongest economy, and enough thick-headed self-rightiousness to ignore everyone else and do what we want. We levy economic and political sanctions on any country who doesn't follow our game plan. We bully weaker nations into giving us what we want. We think that we have the right to police the rest of the world. We think we have the right to judge other countries and enforce our values on them. We effectively govern the world by our own value system and show blatant disregard for others' beliefs. And then we wonder why people don't like us. Heh.

The US system of government is dependent on a responsible citizenry. The Consitution assumes that the people will make informed, intelligent decisions when voting and expressing political views. Unfortunately, this responsibilty is not being fulfilled. Americans are very easily manipulated and irresponsible when it comes to making decisions based on good objective information. How many voters make their decisions based on anything other than what they heard on radio or television advertisements? How many people debate politics with an open mind? How many develop original ideas or thoughts, rather than regurgitating something they heard some political analyst or talk show host say? Not many. We allow ourselves to be told what to think and how to act. We don't THINK for ourselves. We are a nation of sheep. Bah, bah. Let me hear you all "bah" out loud. George Orwell painted a scary picture when he wrote 1984 and Animal Farm. It gets even scarier when you think about and compare what Orwell said to the current state of politics. If you look at things with an open mind, you'll see that they're not too far off. Essentially what I'm getting at is this: the US is a breeding ground for manipulative, power-hungry politicians. This promotes survival of only the nastiest, most crooked, most manipulative bastards. Politicians are the only thing worse than lawyers. Politicians are the least trusted, least respected, and most hated people in this country. Yet, these are the people that run our country and represent us to the rest of the world. Considering this, it should be no big suprise to realize that the world hates us.


I apoligize for not having enough time to proof-read this before submitting. I'm tired and need to get to bed. Please excuse any grammatical or structural errors.

[hapoo]

Originally posted by Napoleon54
But nobody seems really concerned about WHY terrorists, Saddam, and a whole sh*tload of other groups HATE the United States. Until we address that issue, the only things that the "War on Terror" and a war against Iraq are going to accomplish will be to treat some of the symptoms of that hatred, not the cause.



My thoughts exactly. There ARE crazy people in the world, but when a large group of people hate you theres gotta be a reason.

[Apex]

Originally posted by hapoo




My thoughts exactly. There ARE crazy people in the world, but when a large group of people hate you theres gotta be a reason.

Staples hates us...

[CornMonkey]

Originally posted by Apex


Staples hates us...
LOL...

well, back to the subject matter. i think it's not a question of "if" but "when." with both the house and the senate now OKing military action, i think the white house will find some excuse to send troops.

[SonyGuy]

You're wondering why terrorists hate us and what caused this? Well, they're terrorists isn't that what they do? I don't think everyone in Iraq is bad, nor Afghanistan, but I hate a lot of them that are over there right now. Yeah, Saddam hasn't done much in the last 10 years, what the hell was he supposed to do? We beat the S*** out of him. I don't mind people coming over here from another country to live, have a job, and have all of the freedoms that we have here... It made me sick to even imagine for a second that maybe some of those stories that were floating around about people dancing in the streets to 9/11 might be true. I think that's grounds for being shot. You can say I'm mean but if I saw someone doing that, I'd probably shoot them no matter who they were. So yeah there's terrorists everywhere. I think misrepresentation plays a big factor in some people hating the U.S. We have some real pieces of trash working in goverment offices right now...

[Cantacuzene]

The terrorists don't have a reason. They don't do what they do for a specific goal. They subscribe to an ideology that preaches thats violence in the form of terror is an effective way to achieve your goals in international politics. Saying we got involved in the middle east caused this is wrong. The terrorists in Sudan, Kashmir, and Indonesia couldnt care less about the middle east.

Before America was the Great Satan it was Great Britain. After ww2 they switched to America. We are just the biggest target, they have nothing personal with us, we are just the ones worth humiliating.

To prove that issues arent important, imagine the Israel/Paletsine issue comes to a resolution. Will that stop terrorism? No. If we pull our troops out of Saudi will that? No. If we pull our missionaries out of Indonesia will that stop terrorism? No. If the Hindus pull out of Kashmir will that stop terrorism? No.

They dont have goals, they just have a vague idea that by commiting terrorist acts they show they arent weak 3rd world countries but actually powers to be treated with respect.

We have to break that ideology. Its quite simple. You send them the powerful message that their ideology is flawed and terrorism will leave them worse off than before. If they realise that only through peace and moderation will they get the respect they crave will they be successful.

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by SonyGuy
It made me sick to even imagine for a second that maybe some of those stories that were floating around about people dancing in the streets to 9/11 might be true. I think that's grounds for being shot.

So when they kill 3000 to accomplish their "goals" its improper to dance in the street, but when we killed 300,000 in Hiroshima to accomplish our goals it was right of us to have ticker tape parades?

I'm not condoning terrorism, nor am I coming down on using the nuke in ww2 which I think was the right move. What I am saying is everyone has a point of view, however popular or unpopular it may be. Whether they come to pay for their point of view is up to time and history, not you and your gun.

[SonyGuy]

That's not the point I was trying to make. What I meant was you have to be a complete dumbass to do crap like that. Listen, if/when we bomb Iraq, would you fly over there so you could dance in their streets praising the U.S.? You'd get your ass shot so why do it here. I never have danced or felt like throwing a party after a war. People die on both sides of the war and it's sad...

[Cantacuzene]

I doubt very much many people danced in the streets in the US. Maybe some isolated lunatics but nothign major.

You'd also be a complete dumbass to believe that there is no one in the US that hates the US.

[SonyGuy]

I know there's people that live here and hate the U.S. and they're idiots. If you don't like it no one makes you live here. Move and do us all a favor. That's what I think. Go live in Switzerland they're neutral... Excercise your rights to get your ass on a plane...

[hapoo]

Originally posted by Apex


Staples hates us...


After the stuff i went through with the coupons... the feeling is mutual. :P

[sbp]

Originally posted by hapoo
SonyGuy:
I say Saddam should bomb the hell out of everyone you care about instead. I don't like Saddam any more that anyone else, but the fact is he hasn't done sh*t in 10 years. Now we feel all high and mighty after bombing the crap out of the desert called Afghanistan and feel like jumping on Iraqs throat, and guess what, the people who are going to be most effected are going to be the civilians who are already living in crappy conditions, not Saddam. There is more to this war than just going after Saddam cause he has weapons. America's mistake wasn't in Desert Storm, it was much earlier when they decided to screw around with middle east politics when they handed Saddam all his weapon tech. on a platter. So its better not to do anything until the thug moves? Is getting rid of a rotten dictator such a bad thing?

Yep, all this on the Western World and what did we to contribute is just an excuse. What the limelight needs to be on is how the Middle East has to deal with its rotten, corrupt governments that hold back the citizens and progress. The Middle East needs to focus on a culture that represses half its population. Maybe someday it'll stop wallowing in victimization and being afraid to come into the 21st century. We as a good generous people will help them get there but cannot be expected to do it all.

This may be hard to believe and contrary to reflexive blame America first history, but the US didn't put Hussein into power.
http://www.iraqioasis.com/p3.html
http://www.arab.net/iraq/history/iq_coups.html
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein

The Soviets/Russia have been the thugs strongest friends for decades now and that is where he shopped for weapons.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/iraq/equipment/
http://www.wf.org/armingiraq.htm

Hussein and his cadre's waistlines haven't been shrinking at all. Getting rid of him will help the Iraqi people out and get rid of the sanctions. Rather sickening to see an entire country suffer because of one jerk.

[Cantacuzene]

Well said Sbp. The ideology of militant islam as a path to success comes from the fact theyve made themselves into the victims and they want to put the fault into anyone other than themselves.

Militant islam is not old at all. It started in the 1920's. Before that Islamic governments "path to success" was to emulate western governments. Turkey was the only conountry to do it "well."

The problem is, the middle eastern governments pikced bad western governments to emulate. They emulated Hitler, Musselini and Stalin. They saw totalitarianism as the ideal western state. The middles east was VERY sympathetic to Hitler in ww2, as history shows. He was their "liberator" from british colonialism.

Well, once the bubble burst on emulating western governments they took a defeatist role for themselves. The way they abandoned more or less the facist government model upon facisms loss is the equivilant of how they will drop militant islam when it crumbles. If Iran and Iraq were to fall, along with the military dictatorship in Pakistan and the barbaric government in the Sudan things would begin to change.