Retailers Invoke DMCA to block black friday sales posts

[gear02]

On slashdot and Fatwallet (sorry g|a for posting a competitor).

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/11/20/1753238&mode=nested&tid=98

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=18&threadid=126042

From fatwallet:

We have been given DMCA notices regarding the posting of "Black Friday" sale prices from the following companies:

Wal*Mart
Target
Best Buy
Staples

While we believe that sale prices are facts and can not be copyrighted, We have made the business decision to comply with the dmca notifications.

Our reasoning for this is very simple - Our mission is to serve consumers - If we were to choose to fight this battle, It would require more resources than are available - and we would no longer be able to serve consumers.

I fully expect this story to be making news sites as early as today.

Part of the DMCA Safe Harbor provisions state that in order to qualify for safe harbor protection, we must have no knowledge of the infringing activity. If we become aware of the removed content being reposted on our site, We have no choice but to remove the content, or forfeit our safe harbor provision. I respectfully ask your cooperation on this matter.

On a further note - We have been, and will be in further contact with the EFF, as well as ChillingEffects.org.

I bloody hate the DMCA. I'm boycotting the stores above from now on.

[cruelpupet]

Guess... I wont be buying my X-Mas gifts from


Staples or Best Buy (I dont shop at the others)

looks like im just gonna have to limit myself to... The Wiz, Circit City, Comp USA, J&R, and all the small online retailers
:P

[Nija]

WTF?!?!

So they can send out the prices, in their mailers, but you can't post them? how does that even fall anywhere near the DMCA?

[OC]

Posts about Black Friday sales are FREE ADVERTISING for these f***ing companies. Fine - they don't want me to know about their sale prices, I won't give them my money.

-OC

[blueindian]

yeah...that's stupid.

however, does it actually violate the dmca if a user posts them in a forum?

[Cubsfan]

I can see why they would be upset with this. Best Buy doesn't want Circuit City to know their prices early enough to react. I think the reasons that they have are valid business reasons.

However, how they are going about this is all wrong. I'm not exactly sure how this could be a DMCA violation. Maybe they stores all those prices in some sort of an encrypted form, and therefore the only way to get them was to break the encryption(copy-protection)? That's one heck of a stretch.

So, what's GA going to do about it? I know there's already been postings about WalMart's prices. Going to take them down or just... um... "not notice" it unless they get a letter? :)

A bad law being abused...

[gear02]

That might be true, but I think they're more concerned with shoppers waiting till next friday before spending money. They rather have people buy things now, then buy more things on black friday.

[QuantumKicker]

Mad at TARGET? Just print out a whole bunch of free coke coupons and go to their store. Since the coupon says one per customer per visit, get one, walk out, walk in, and repeat. I've done it before and there's nothing they can do to not let you get your FREE COKE. I guess you could call it your tribute towards TARGET's idiocy :) .

[Paymaster]

Another reason that they would clearly not want this "free advertising" is that many of these stores have pricematch policies. They don't want people to buy this stuff today, then come back at their leisure Thanksgiving weekend and pricematch it to a better price. All the people who get there at 6:00 AM will get screwed because the stores will have no stock left.

They want to bring in the people who come for the steals, and stay to do the rest of their shopping. They don't want the cherry pickers.

[OC]

Update at Slashdot :D

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=45600&cid=4718234

-OC

[faither]

Farging iceholes. Either way the retailers are going to lose. Resistance is futile. :D

[Nija]

Published facts cannot be copyrighted. That's correct.

The problem is, these sales have not yet been published. There are no ads touting these sales yet, that won't happen until next week.

These sites are getting this infomation from people who are preparing the ads that haven't yet been released, all of whom are under non-disclosure agreements to not tell what's in the ads that they're working on.

If these sites post the same infomation once the ads ads published, they're in the clear. But again, these ads are at this moment trade secrets.

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=45600&cid=4717700

THIS I can understand. If the sale prices haven't been released it's one thing, if they already published them, and were trying to pull this bullshizzle, Then they wouldn't be able to get away with this stuff.

ok.. I'm not as outraged now... :D

[gear02]

Be prepared to get madder.

http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/11/20/021120hndmca.xml?s=IDGNS


FatWallet.com maintainer Tim Storm, president of site creator Storm Concepts in Roscoe, Ill., said the issue began erupting Friday, when Wal-Mart and Target contacted him asking for removal of Black Friday sales information.

FatWallet.com aggregates content contributed by third-party users, and its stance is that it is merely a venue for information exchange, with no control over that information or its accuracy, Storm said. He explained to the retailers that FatWallet.com's policy is to only remove information that violates its user agreement or the DMCA; within the day, Wal-Mart and Target followed up with formal DMCA violation notices. Best Buy and Staples soon followed suit, he said.

Bastards couldn't figure a reason why they should remove them so they picked DMCA.

[Nija]

But if the prices aren't public knowledge they ARE violateing the DMCA, I think they are even breaking some other laws, probably copyright laws, and some such. If these deals were to be printed in Sunday's news paper, and people started posting them, the stores would have to bend over, like the bitches they are, and take, because as far as the law is concerned, that information is public, and so they are SOL.

[gear02]

Originally posted by Nija
But if the prices aren't public knowledge they ARE violateing the DMCA, I think they are even breaking some other laws, probably copyright laws, and some such. If these deals were to be printed in Sunday's news paper, and people started posting them, the stores would have to bend over, like the bitches they are, and take, because as far as the law is concerned, that information is public, and so they are SOL.

I think I have to reluctantly agree. It was information that was not public unless posters did see ads in newspapers and other places. Heck, I think it's fine if store managers and workers told people or friends about this since that's publizing information, even though not formally announced. But what I hate is that they tried to use the DMCA to legitimize their actions rather than trying to get the people who violated their NDAs or contracts to post this information.

What I like is that they tried to use the DMCA to legitimize their actions. The more times this damned law is used improperly and indiscriminately, then the faster it'll get repealed.

[Merlin]

I think I figured out a way around this. Just start off each post about the sales with the phrase "rumor has it that Big Store will be selling..." Last time I checked gossip and rumors were still covered under free speech. :D

[Nija]

Originally posted by gear02


I think I have to reluctantly agree. It was information that was not public unless posters did see ads in newspapers and other places. Heck, I think it's fine if store managers and workers told people or friends about this since that's publizing information, even though not formally announced.


But that's not legal either. They are probably breaking some NDA that they signed when signed up to work at these slave labor-esque places.


But what I hate is that they tried to use the DMCA to legitimize their actions rather than trying to get the people who violated their NDAs or contracts to post this information.
exactly.


What I like is that they tried to use the DMCA to legitimize their actions. The more times this damned law is used improperly and indiscriminately, then the faster it'll get repealed.

That's the hope, unfortunately, average joe and jane american, have no farking clue what the hell the DMCA is/does, and thus live in their ignorance. education of the sheep is something that needs to be done instead of continually living in this evolving aristocracy (the top 2% control the lower 98%)

edited for formatting reasons

[Nija]

Originally posted by Merlin
I think I figured out a way around this. Just start off each post about the sales with the phrase "rumor has it that Big Store will be selling..." Last time I checked gossip and rumors were still covered under free speech. :D

A big store, that sounds like Beast Buy is having this sale...

A large commercial chain store, that has -Mart in it's name is gonna be selling....

a store that is named after something you put in a stapler is have this sale...

:D

[gear02]

Originally posted by Nija

But that's not legal either. They are probably breaking some NDA that they signed when signed up to work at these slave labor-esque places.


Yeah, but they should have gone after those places, not invoke the DMCA on some marginally borderline case. I'm afraid it'll get upheld as a valid use of the DMCA.


That's the hope, unfortunately, average joe and jane american, have no farking clue what the hell the DMCA is/does, and thus live in their ignorance. education of the sheep is something that needs to be done instead of continually living in this evolving aristocracy (the top 2% control the lower 98%) [/B]

This is a start. Take a case that everyone can identify with. Everyone knows what sales are and attempts at blocking sales information affects everyone. Then again, 70% of 18 to 24 year olds can't find New Jersey on a map so who knows. (http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/20/geography.quiz/index.html)

[chrissy]

Concidering I work for one of these stores and I knew about the items from these forums before my store manager did... well, I have to side with the store on this one. The black friday sales are a huge deal to these companies. We get hints about what might be on sale just from the freight that comes in but as soon as it gets unloaded, it goes directly to a local warehouse to sit until that night before the sale. It's gonna be a mad house and I will be in the midst of it getting it from all angles from customers that KNOW their way is the RIGHT way. :P

[Cubsfan]

From the sounds of it, I think we all agree that the stores had reason to be upset. I don't think anyone is arguing that one.

I think (and this is just my perception) that most people are upset about the way that it is being handled. I think everyone is mad that they are throwing around the DMCA for this. I tend to agree.

Just out of curiosity, what part of the DMCA does this violate?

[gear02]

Originally posted by Cubsfan
Just out of curiosity, what part of the DMCA does this violate?

I doubt even they have any idea.

[Butch]

Pricing strategy is proprietary and highly confidential. This information becoming public impedes their ability to compete - and retail is highly competitive.

I'd include a link, but WSJ Online is a subscription service, so ya wouldn't be able to see it anyway . . .

Web-Savvy Shoppers Get
Sneak Peak at Holiday Sales

By RON LIEBER
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


This year's after-Thanksgiving sales have started early for some Internet-savvy consumers, and the nation's biggest retailers are scrambling to slam the doors on them.

Users of several cult Web sites with names like FatWallet.com (www.fatwallet.com) and DealofDay.com (www.dealofday.com) have somehow obtained and then posted lists of sale prices at retailers including Target, Best Buy and Staples -- before the sales are officially announced. These are discounts the retailers had no intention of making public until around Thanksgiving, with the hopes of making a splashy launch to the traditional holiday shopping season.

Here's a sample of the enticing prices: After Thanksgiving, OfficeMax plans to sell a feature-laden H-P printer for $200, 33% off the current price on its Web site. Best Buy plans to offer a Kodak digital camera for $99.99, compared with $149.99 on BestBuy.com. The store also plans to put the soundtrack for "8 Mile," the Eminem movie, on sale for $8.99. Currently, it sells for $14.99 on the Best Buy site.

For committed shoppers, early access to this information can result in big savings of both time and money. Shoppers are saving money by knowing weeks in advance what's going on sale at what store and buying it there instead of a competitor. Consumers are also buying the products at full price and later getting credit for the difference after the product goes on sale. The Web surfers also save time by buying the merchandise in advance and avoiding the holiday crush.

The big retailers are now fighting back. "Someone, somewhere is getting information they shouldn't be," says an OfficeMax spokesman. Target, Best Buy and others have demanded that the Web sites take the information down. Most have complied, but scores of readers had already copied the data and posted it elsewhere on the Web.

No one knows exactly where the leaks are coming from or who is behind them, but the companies don't dispute the accuracy of the information. Now, these posts threaten to disrupt the carefully laid plans and pricing schemes of the nation's largest retailers, since they tip off competitors and alter consumer behavior.

The fray highlights the growing popularity of the shopping sites, which cover everything from consumer electronics to personal finance. The sites have been around for several years, but have grown significantly in the past 12 months. Some even posted the holiday specials last year, but the retailers failed to take note.

Popular sites include FatWallet and Techbargains.com (www.techbargains.com), which make it easy for users to search for bargains on specific products. For example, you can hunt for a computer deal by typing in "Dell" and "coupons" and find people giving away Dell coupons that they can't use or doling out advice on how to use multiple coupons at once to save the most amount of money.

There are also specialist sites like DvdTalk.com (www.dvdtalk.com), where users review different machines and offer tips on which stores have the best prices. Other enthusiast sites are famous for publishing unwritten rules and secret codes. On FlyerTalk.com (www.flyertalk.com), a site for frequent-flier-mile junkies, users regularly post information on special mileage promotions.

Both types of sites have published lists of hundreds of items that will be available on "Black Friday," the popular shopping day after Thanksgiving when retailers often break into the black for the first time all year. So far, people have posted data from Target, Kmart, Wal-Mart Stores, Staples, OfficeMax, Best Buy, Sears Roebuck and Toys 'R' Us.

Surfers can still find the information by doing a Google search for "Black Friday" and the store name. One person started a Yahoo group Wednesday morning to collect the banned information. More than 2,400 people had signed up by nightfall.

Other shoppers have taken it further. Last year, Thomas Jones read on FatWallet that a PC drive would go on sale at Best Buy after Thanksgiving. So he bought it a day early for $150 -- then came back on sale day to claim the $50 discount. Despite making two trips to the store, he saved time because when he arrived on sale day, there were 200 people standing in line just to get into the store, but "I just walked to customer service where there was no line," he says.

Mr. Jones adds that he feels no guilt over having used this information to save time and money. "The moral turpitude, if any, lies with the person who posted the information in the first place," he says.

The companies agree. The problem is, they can't figure out who's posting the sneak previews. A few months ago, a person on anandtech.com said he had been fired from Home Depot for posting sale information before it became public. Home Depot doesn't comment on personnel matters.

Now, people who post similar lists of products and prices are cagier about revealing their true identities. "It could be coming from anywhere along the chain," says Tim Storm, the founder of FatWallet. "It could be employees [of the retailers] giving it to friends who post it or the delivery boy from the printing house that produces the newspaper circular."

The retailers are pushing hard to stem the leaks. "We will take appropriate legal action as soon as we discover how the information got on the site and who posted it," says a spokesman for OfficeMax, which is about to ask sites to remove the data. Staples, which has successfully asked FatWallet to remove the data, worries that OfficeMax will see the report and match their prices. "We are in a competitive industry," says a Staples spokesman. "You don't want to be telegraphing information that's not meant for public view."

[gear02]

I read that and I think I understand the retailers' perception. However, the number of people who read these sites are small in comparsion to the number of shoppers. Plus, the people who read these sites are more likely to spend money than normal shoppers. So why not allow these few to have an early start? That way the retailers compete for these hardcore shoppers' money.

Oh wait, retailers hate competition.

[ribitch]

time to stock up on more free cokes :D

i think their tactics are complete horse *****

[Cubsfan]

This is interesting. Fatwallet is fighting back!

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=18&threadid=129657
http://slashdot.org/articles/02/12/04/1318228.shtml?tid=153

[seqiro]

Excellent! I hope that these stores get their you-know-whats handed to them and can serve as an example to other large corporations that sometimes the little guy fights back.

[whitak24]

this is excellent. sounds like fatwallet has some EXCELLENT legal counsel that should be able to deal with whatever wal-mart's corporate legal dept can throw at them.

hopefully, this will result in a good hit on the DCMA