View Full Version : South Koreans Protest U.S. Military
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021123/ap_on_re_as/skorea_us_military_3
SEOUL, South Korea (AP) - About 700 activists burned an American flag and demanded the U.S. military leave South Korea after two U.S. soldiers were acquitted of negligent homicide charges in a traffic accident that killed two Korean girls.
"Let's drive out American troops!" the protesters chanted, shaking fists in front of the Korean War Museum in central Seoul.
Shoving matches erupted when riot police blocked the demonstrators from marching on the nearby U.S. military base. No injuries or arrests were reported.
In two separate U.S. military trials earlier this week, Sgt. Fernando Nino and Sgt. Mark Walker were acquitted of negligent homicide charges in the deaths of two 13-year-old school girls that their armored vehicle hit and killed on June 13.
Walker is from Acworth, Ga. Nino's hometown has not been released. Both are soldiers in the 2nd U.S. Infantry Division.
The acquittals prompted an outcry from South Korean activists, who called the trials a sham.
The U.S. military appealed to South Koreans to trust the judgment of the military panels and offered an "apology and deepest sympathies" to the victims' families.
South Korea's Defense Ministry said in a statement Saturday that it was not completely happy with the verdicts, but warned against using them to stoke anti-American sentiment.
Saturday's protesters, including 150 high school students, demanded that the American soldiers be retried in a South Korean court.
The U.S. military has jurisdiction over its soldiers accused of crimes while on duty. There are 37,000 American soldiers based in South Korea.
Walker and Nino were on a training mission near the border with North Korea when their mine-clearing vehicle struck Shim Mi-son and Shin Hyo-sun.
South Korean political parties have called for revision of a U.S.-South Korean military accord to grant South Korea more jurisdiction in cases involving U.S. soldiers.
http://www.lemonizer.com/uploads/south_korea_dummies.jpg
Dipsh1t protesters burn an American flag during an anti-U.S. rally near the Yongsan U.S. Army Base in Seoul, Saturday, Nov. 23, 2002.
http://www.lemonizer.com/uploads/south_korean_moron.jpg
An ungrateful South Korean moron prepares to throw eggs toward the U.S. Army Camp Casey during an anti-U.S. rally in Dongducheon, north of Seoul, Friday, Nov. 22, 2002.
molecularfire
11-23-2002, 03:07 PM
I say we give them what they want. We have other allies in the Southeast Asian area so we really don't need them. Let's face it... if the U.S. and China ever get into a war, it's not going to be a conventional war anyways. :shrug:
Before and even during the trails, there was protests.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=838&ncid=838&e=11&u=/nm/20021121/wl_asia_nm/asia_135125
"The accident, in which the two 13-year-old Korean schoolgirls were crushed by a tank-like minesweeping vehicle as they walked on a road in their village, prompted apologies from several U.S. commanders as well as Secretary of State Colin Powell.
The injured were among about 60 protesters who rushed a phalanx of hundreds of South Korean riot police wielding clubs and shields in the latest of dozens of sometimes violent protests since the girls were killed on June 13.
Mun and others shaved their heads in protest and several activists cut their fingers and wrote anti-U.S. slogans in blood." wackos.
This vehicle was going uphill and around a bend.
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/327/nation/2d_US_soldier_cleared_in_S_Korea+.shtml
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/metro/cobb/1102/23koreasoldier.html
"The girls were walking on the right side of the road when they were hit but Walker's vision on that side was obscured by a crane on the mine-clearing vehicle he was driving. In addition, the 57-ton vehicle was making a right-hand turn up a hill, further impeding his view, Womack argued."
Yeah, the US is sitting there defending these fscktards and they bash. Agreed, its time to leave and let them to defend themselves from the North. See how long they'll last.
attgig
11-23-2002, 03:59 PM
protests like these just make me sick..
everyone forgets why they're really protesting...and just rouse up as much hatred as they can...
2 girls died.
gear02
11-23-2002, 05:31 PM
Well, I think such anti-american protests are valid. I mean, two Korean girls were killed by our military.
I don't understand why we station soldiers in so many places, especially when the local population doesn't want us there. I mean, heck our forces are basically preventing North Korea from crushing South Korea. I say, if they want us out, let's get out of there and let them beg for us to come back when they get invaded.
The US has apologized repeatedly and compensation will be given. Yes, that pales in comparison to two children lives.
These anti-American protestors love to protest all the time. As attgig points out this is about the mental dwarfs agenda.
Many of the numskull protestors are younguns who don't care about the past. Without the US, there would be no South Korea. Say that again: Without the US, there would be no South Korea. They'd all be suffering and starving under a ruthless Stalinist regime as North Koreans are. And US service people put up with a lot of crap there.
Its pathetic they can run down the US then hide behind big daddy protector. The Cold War is over, we don't have to defend these or any other ingrates. But we will continue to since we are too damn nice.
North Korea has some lovely things in store for South Korea.
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/reuters20021122_436.html
"North Korea is building a plant that by the middle of the decade could produce enough uranium for two or more nuclear weapons a year, a CIA analysis said on Friday.
The CIA previously estimated that North Korea had one or two nuclear weapons using plutonium produced before 1992."
kimchicowboy
11-23-2002, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by gear02
Well, I think such anti-american protests are valid. I mean, two Korean girls were killed by our military.
I don't understand why we station soldiers in so many places, especially when the local population doesn't want us there. I mean, heck our forces are basically preventing North Korea from crushing South Korea. I say, if they want us out, let's get out of there and let them beg for us to come back when they get invaded.
we're there to balance the power against North Korea and China (in the past, North Korea and the USSR). keep in mind now that NK has nuclear weapons and has ALWAYS wanted reunification under THEIR terms.
but yes, i'm very shocked that they didn't get courtmartialed. my roommate is a part of the army and told me that these two soldiers should get tried under a US court because they will most likely get court-martialed and their life will be scarred by that: no jobs, no loans, no nothing. something went wrong.
hang10wannabe
11-23-2002, 07:50 PM
it is incredibly unforetunate about that occurance, i believe that the US military should alter some protocol when doing exercises, i mean you wouldnt see a vehicle like that running around streets that people walk in places in europe or here. granted that there are a lot of mines left in the korean area and other asian areas that these vehicles are needed for, but it is a bit reckless on these two troops parts.
that said, i agree with the verdict of not punishing these two soldiers for doing their duty. and i doubt this protesting will let up for some time, i can just hope that the families can forgive the US and we can move on with our lives. and i hope that no more death comes as a result of these two girls deaths, i doubt these two girls would want a lot of people to die. :(
Napoleon
11-23-2002, 09:09 PM
US is at fault, but the South Koreans shouldbehave! (with Austin Powers' accent
Cantacuzene
11-23-2002, 10:05 PM
I dunno, yes we saved them, but how long can we hold that against everyone. 300 years from now saying, "if it wasnt for you you'd be speaking german/chinese/russian/english." wont carry so much weight. What is the statute of limitations on 'gratefulness.'
chrissy
11-23-2002, 10:28 PM
When Donnie was over there a couple years ago, he was told that during protests they were not allowed off base and some other safty things. One thing that stuck with us was the fact that most of the protesters are soft on the North Koreans. :shrug: Gotta remember some of that is mixed in there too when you see this.
ArkiStan
11-23-2002, 10:28 PM
This is a very complicated issue, and like most other problems in the world, is very hard to get a clear understanding of the situation by simply observing from a single standpoint. Being a "youngun" myself, I have very little background on this issue, but as a Language (Interpreting) Officer serving in the Korean military, I think I've gotten some good exposure to it since I constantly talk with both US and Korean military personnel. Here's what I think:
I completely understand why you guys think South Koreans are absolutely ungrateful bastards. I probably would have thought the same if I were in your shoes. Yes, it is true that South Korea would not be what it is today without the military support of the US. And there is no way that South Korea could defend itself at this point in time. As a Korean, it's sad to say, Korea just would not make it on its own. It's the truth.
I largely agree with SBP. "Many of the numskull protestors are younguns who don't care about the past. Without the US, there would be no South Korea." I wouldn't use the exact same wording ;) but I do agree; some Koreans actually think that if the US forces simply leave the Korean penninsula everything will be solved. Many don't care about the past, and a greater problem is some don't even KNOW the past. :eek:
Though, there is one thing that you must understand. Most protestors protest despite being well aware of our situation and our past. Then why are they protesting? It's just their way of reminding the US that "we're here and we have a voice." As I mentioned before, the US military is a very essential and needed entity in Korea. The US knows that, and many times Koreans think they are unnecessarily being taken take advantage of. It's a lot of history to get into, but most exchanges with the US, whether they be political, economical or cultural are greatly, if not completely, infuenced and controlled by the military relationship between Korea and US. This is a very subjective matter and you may agree or disagree, but many times Koreans felt they got the $hit end of the stick when it comes to deals with the US. You probably won't hear too much about all this in USA Today or the 8 o'clock news over there in the states, but spend a couple years here IN Korea and you'll feel it quite clearly. I'm not saying Koreans are completely ungrateful. They're just afraid that if they continue to sit quietly with folded arms, they'll lose all their rights. The protests are Koreans' way of reminding the US that the Koreans are not just puppets.
Now I don't completely agree with all the protests, but I sorta see why Koreans might think they're necessary. I'm not trying to prove anybody wrong here. I just hope you learned something you didn't know. Sorry for sounding so neutral, but it's hard to opinionated when I have so many ties in both sides.
molecularfire
11-24-2002, 02:33 PM
Good point Arkistan, but let me ask you a question (I'm not doing this to debate btw:... I really don't know the answer and would like info. from someone with more exposure than me). Is the U.S. presence in S. Korea really necessary anymore. From the S. Korean standpoint, I can see people being worried about N. Korea, but with their economic problems, and the loss of the USSR is N. Korea really going to want to invade S. Korea at this standpoint. Heck, they already have a nuclear bomb and it's not going to take more than one to take out S. Korea so why haven't they used it already if they want to take out/over S. Korea. At this point, from what I've read, N. Korea wants money more than anything else, and S. Korea isn't exactly the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
From the U.S. point of view, how useful is S. Korea really. We have a lot of money invested in a bunch of the little tiger countries and so we have a presence in Southeast asia should anything break out there. Heck, even with the bomb, N. Korea is not a threat to us. The only problem would be from China and 1) they've got their own problems to worry about right now and 2) if we fight them, it isn't going to be a conventional war anyways. Please correct me if I'm wrong. :)
Criticism can be given but the way these morons act its like the US is worse thing ever. Fsck them.
And yes the whining from the Olympics is recalled. Then it was the World Cup showing off (http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45441).
Its doubtful South Korea would take the lame bashing the US has.
Accidents happen. Everyone remember 2 US army soldiers were run over by 68 ton US tank recently during training exercises in the US?
Its amazing how a country with twice the population, much stronger economy and more military spending than its rival, can't handle that rival by itself.
South Korea population: 48.324 million
GDP: $865 billion
Military manpower - fit for military service: 8,990,488 million
Military expenditures: $12.8 billion
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ks.html
North Korea population: 22,224,195 million
GDP: $21.8 billion
Military manpower - fit for military service: 3,619,535 million
Military expenditures: $5.124 billion
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/kn.html
Time for them to take care of their own dayum selves. :cool:
Cantacuzene
11-24-2002, 04:51 PM
Oh SBP, how we selectively remeber history. In the Korean War, North Korea was not the problem, and it still isnt today.
China
Population: 1,284,303,705
GDP: - $5.56 trillion
Military manpower fit for military service: 203,003,036
Military expenditures: $65 billion
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html
More than a match for SK.;)
Originally posted by Cantacuzene
Oh SBP, how we selectively remeber history. In the Korean War, North Korea was not the problem, and it still isnt today.
China
Population: 1,284,303,705
GDP: - $5.56 trillion
Military manpower fit for military service: 203,003,036
Military expenditures: $65 billion
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html
More than a match for SK.;) These activists need to remember this before biting the hand that protects.
speedracer120
11-24-2002, 05:08 PM
I agree those protestors are mostly idiots. I'm not going to say that those people specifically have a valid point, especially not in the way that they are conducting themselves. As chrissy pointed out, some of the organizers are pinkos, so they have somekind of agenda in protesting and such. But I think most of the "youngun"s are there because they feel as if the country is being lorded by the US. Even as a loyal US citizen, I get the feeling that our country is at time a little overbearing on some issues. I agree with them that the SOFA (status of forces agreement) is a little too one-sided in favor of the US. As an American, I understand the need to protect soldiers, especially when on official business and on orders, but it still comes off as arrogance, even to me. I have no issues with the military, I for one like the military. But is there a reason why we should maintain a presence nearly everywhere in the world? Yeah, Red China is a pain in the ass, but that's what nuclear missles are in existence, it's the big ass stick waiting to be swung if someone gets outta line. Hell, I think it might be a good thing for our military to leave Korea. I for one see reasons for there to be another war on the Peninsula, it might create more ideal situations for the progress of not only politics in Korea, but better infrastructure, opportunities to right a lot wrongs here. I don't idealize war, I wish it upon no one, but as one with a history degree, I see not only the wrongs and hurts, but the positive effects they have. I don't want to list them, cause this isn't a thesis, but nevertheless they are there.
BTW, I'm stuck in Korea till Dec. 17, so I have a unique perspective of being able to watch the AFN Korea(Armed Forces Network Korea)broadcast bulletins of curfews and what not, and the next minute watch the Korean media sensationalize and manipulate the facts.
my $.02
Cantacuzene
11-24-2002, 05:22 PM
Lets not forget that the leader of North Korea is a complete lunatic, even teh chinese recognize how crazy he is.
ArkiStan
11-25-2002, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by sbp
Criticism can be given but the way these morons act its like the US is worse thing ever. Fsck them.
And yes the whining from the Olympics is recalled. Then it was the World Cup showing off (http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45441).
Its doubtful South Korea would take the lame bashing the US has.
Accidents happen. Everyone remember 2 US army soldiers were run over by 68 ton US tank recently during training exercises in the US?
Its amazing how a country with twice the population, much stronger economy and more military spending than its rival, can't handle that rival by itself.
:eek: Boy, it doesn't take that long of a list of reasons to completely come to despise a single nation of 48 million, does it?? The Korean protestors could sure use somebody like you! :D
Well ArkiStan, the message can be sugarcoated or blunt, but either way it is the same in the long run.
Wednesday Nov.27th: Bush Apologizes Over South Korea Schoolgirl Deaths (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021127/ts_nm/korea_usa_dc_3)
SEOUL (Reuters) - President Bush apologized to the South Korean people on Wednesday over a road accident in which a U.S. Army vehicle crushed two schoolgirls to death, prompting anti-American protests.
At a special news conference on Wednesday following days of protest, including the student firebombing of a U.S. Army base, U.S. Ambassador Thomas Hubbard passed on Bush's apology.
The response to the apology: http://www.lemonizer.com/uploads/bkorea.jpg
Hey, at least its not being burned!
Has link to video of firebombing: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021127/ts_nm/korea_usa_dc_3
Take a look at the pictures then take a look at the video. But damn if you say anything about it-thats being mean.
Thursday, 28 November, 2002 Seoul restaurants bar US diners (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2523237.stm) http://www.pcabusers.net/forums/images/icons/headshaker.gif
Some restaurants and pubs in the South Korean capital are refusing to serve Americans amid anger over the acquittal of two US soldiers for the road deaths of two teenage girls.
"Americans are not welcome here," read a sign on the door and a window of Zeno, a restaurant in Seoul.
http://www.lemonizer.com/uploads/noamer.jpg
12-07-02 http://www.news-journal.com/news/content/news/ap_story.html/Intl/AP.V5135.AP-SKorea-US-Prote.html
About 15,000 people carrying candles protested across the street from the American Embassy on Saturday, in the largest show of anti-U.S. sentiment in years.
The protesters, upset with what they say is preferential treatment to American soldiers in Korea, booed and chanted ``President Bush apologize!'' and ``Let's drive out the murderous American GIs!''
Protesters distributed leaflets urging citizens not to buy American goods including Coca-Cola, Marlboro cigarettes and McDonald's hamburgers.
News reports said there were also smaller protests in 40 provincial towns across the country, and between 50,000 and 100,000 Koreans turned out in all. Police could not confirm the figures.
A six-person vocal group sang a song during the rally in Seoul that was rife with American slogans and a refrain of ``Yankee go home!''
-------------------
Its understood that South Korea is growing up and finding its voice. That after being ruled by the Japanese and then events after WWII, South Koreans want to take pride in their country. Thats fine. But remember it can go overboard and scapegoating can be easily done. Another thing is other countries like Ireland had bad times also and yet don't behave this way.
Its also realized there are valid reasons for not being thrilled with the US military there like pollution and crime. Thats fine. In addition just having power and being visible causes resentment. But part of being mature is knowing how to offer suggestions and taking responsiblity for one's self. It doesn't help US-South Korea relations to go over overboard again and again. This is not the first time these sort of events have happened, is it? And there will be a next time.
I say we get the hell out and let them fend for themselves, militarily speaking.
-OC
ArkiStan
12-08-2002, 08:59 AM
SBP, I see you've read many many US-based articles that illustrate the protests and anti-US sentiments that are currently arising in Korea. I clearly see you weren't a happy camper when you saw the Koreans' behavior in the Olympics(or was it the many many US-based articles that described the Koreans' behavior in the Olympics). I understand why you think S.Koreans should be thankful for the US defending them from N. Korea and should stop complaining. Yet, I haven't heard you say a single thing about WHY you think the Koreans might be so angry, other than because they are "ungrateful."
Like you said, the Koreans might not be electing the most intelligent means of protesting, but Korea has proposed many times over the past years, with no success, to ammend parts of SOFA (the Status of Forces Agreement) that are extremely biased. This recent incident is an example of how biased the agreement can be.
SBP, put yourself in the Koreans' shoes, or if that's too much to ask, simply take a couple steps back for a second and have a nice cold look at the situation. If I were driving around in New York and accidently killed two American girls and I was acquitted of negligent homicide, wouldn't you be irritated? especially if the US had no jurisdictional rights over me. You'd probably protest. SBP, you said, "It doesn't help US-South Korea relations to go over overboard again and again. This is not the first time these sort of events have happened, is it? And there will be a next time." Yes, and unless the Status of Forces Agreement is ammended, killers will stand acquitted on all charges again and again and again. I agree the US helped Korean tremendously in defending their country over the past half century. For that reason, do you think Korea should just sit quiet because of that? No straight-minded patriot would. Hell, Americans wouldn't. They're the most patriotic people I've seen in the world! :thumb:
On the other hand, personally, if I were one of the two GI's that were involved in the mishap, I would honestly hope to stand acquitted on all charges, cause MY ass is on the line now. Of course, there will be people who are upset if that were to happen.
As you can see, everybody is selfish and tends to only see situations from their own point of view. All I ask is to choose a standpoint after you've put in some effort to see the whole picture from all perspectives. SBP, if you posted the above comments after doing all that, then what can I say? You're opinion is as gold as any. Everybody is entitled to their own emotions and opinions.
:cheers:
(p.s. Yet, some emotions and opinions are just plain silly, like the impulsive, thoughtless ones that sound like a drunken jock at a frat party talkin about their rival school or the girl that dumped them:
Originally posted by A
I say we get the hell out and let them fend for themselves, militarily speaking.
Originally posted by B
I say we give them what they want. We have other allies in the Southeast Asian area so we really don't need them. Let's face it... if the U.S. and China ever get into a war, it's not going to be a conventional war anyways. :shrug:
If I brought up SOFA to these guys, they'd probably want to sit on it. :heh: )
TofuNinja
12-08-2002, 09:31 AM
We as Americans value the freedom of speech. When something wrong happened to us we acted much like these Koreans....Remember September 11th? Maybe it is like comparing apples and oranges but they are still both fruit. The Koreans feel they were wronged and so they want the United States to leave. We felt 9-11 was wrong so we are fighting arabs....more or less.....
The burning of an AMerican flag makes me sick but so does the idea of riots in which the happened when the African AMericans did when they felt they were wronged by the Rodney King Police trail.
Does this anger me? Yes, but at the same Time I understand their point of view, we would act the exact same way and have.
What? You saw we Americans are more civilized? I let you answer that question.
speedracer120
12-08-2002, 04:13 PM
Anyone read "The Ugly American" or even hear about it. We Americans have a certain unconcious arrogance wherever we go. The protests also have something to do with this attitude.
On another matter. Why so much anger over Koreans protesting the American military and such, when the French and German people do the same crap over going to war with Iraq. Give me a break, the French are bigger ingrates than these young Koreans who are protesting an injustice.
Korea is a country where even the superiors must be held responsible for the acts of underlings. For example, recently the Chief Prosecutor of the Seoul area resigned over an incident where a suspected murderer died during interogation. EVERYTHING is different in Korea. Westernized or not, Korea is Korea. Don't expect the same treatment, same procedures in a foreign country.
:rolleyes:
Thank you for your posts. :)
ArkiStan: irritated? Yes, but be destructive? Heck no. Don't forget there have been diplomats who run over people and do other serious crimes here and there was little outcry.
speedracer120: The French are not respected and Germany can't even muster up defense spending (http://www.washtimes.com/world/20021206-86762955.htm). Hey, if people want to peacefully protest thats fine. But praise and support should be given also. "Its easier to criticize than give praise."
TofuNinja: there has been much restraint shown after 9/11 attacks by Islamofascists who wish to impose Islam on the world and who believe that anyone who dare disagree is an infidel that needs to be killed.
Yes, what happened in S Korea was an accident, but the way some behave it was like done on purpose.
Sad thing is South Korea has taken a black eye with these events. I also suspect some of this is fuel by racism. "Go home white devil. Go home n word."
Something is wrong when the US is viewed as being bad, while North Korea is viewed as good.
They want us to leave, we'll leave. No need for the Status of Forces Agreement to be amended. No need to worry about events like this happening again. No need to deal with Yankees certain unconcious arrogance {like other countries doesn't have the same? Or is this Ugly American another myth while folks from other countries get a pass for the same boorish behavior?}. Seems a simple enough solution. If US troops are not in South Korea, then there will be no more protesting about that. But then the US would get bashed for leaving and not caring about South Korea. "Damned if you do, damned if you don't."
So when North Korea acts up again, a polite decline should be given. See, someone is not insulted repeatly then ran back to when the crap hits the fan. That does not fly. Welcome to the big bad world baby. :D "Show respect, get respect. Act poorly, get treated as such."
Grimm
12-08-2002, 11:56 PM
Accidents happen. It was a terrible tragedy. But... If it had been a S. Korean soldier driving the vehical the results of the inquiry would have probably been the same.
Protesting the US presence over this incident is assinine. Protest the verdict, protest the system, that's all well and good, but telling us that we are not wanted and to go home? Fine, I am all in favor of that. They should vote on it, put up or shut up. If 50+% don't want us there we should leave. Then they can join North Korea and all hate the US. If they want us there, then they can put away their signs, eggs and firebombs and STFU.
ArkiStan
12-09-2002, 08:58 AM
:rolleyes: Ok, Grimm, SBP and everybody else...For one second, can everybody just stop getting so wound up about how S.Korea is hating on their "sugardaddy" and how much they'll regret it in the long run and will come back hiding behind big daddy protector again when evil N.Korea comes along... Ok That might actually happen in the future... but THAT'S NOT THE POINT!!! You're so busy defending yourselves from the firebombs that you're not giving yourselves one short chance to contemplate why they might be being thrown in the first place. (And trust me, there's more to this than simply the Koreans being ungrateful fsckstards)
Not a single person posting in this thread is really addressing the important issue here. YES, The accident was just that: an ACCIDENT!! The GI's clearly didn't kill the two girls intentionally. Evidence clearly shows that the drivers did not have a good view of the girls when they were coming around the bend. I know many Koreans were pissed off at the mere accident alone, but the **** really hit the fan when the two GI's were acquitted of negligent homicide.
SBP, you said "don't forget there have been diplomats who run over people and do other serious crimes here and there was little outcry." Well, how were they charged and what were their sentences? Most likely, citizens' reactions to the incidents were relatively passive because appropriate sentences were charged. If you were refering to Republic of Georgia diplomat Gueorgui Makharadze who was accused of causing a traffic accident that killed a 16-year-old girl in Washington D.C. on January 4, 1997:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9710/08/diplomat.plea/
"Following public outrage over the death, Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze waived diplomatic immunity for Makharadze so he could face the charges.
http://www.onlineathens.com/1997/122097/1220.a3diplomat.html
"A former Republic of Georgia diplomat, whose nation waived his immunity, was sentenced Friday to seven to 21 years in prison for the death of a Maryland teen-ager in a car crash."
I admit the case above is completely different in nature, since the diplomat had been DUI. But there WAS outrage and if he had been able to evade charges by maintaining his diplomatic immunity, then we would have had a very similar situation here. What had happened with the GI's is that they were "acquitted of negligent homicide." They were cleared of all charges. There was no possibility for them to be tried in Korea, and Korea did not and will not have any jurisdictional rights over the GI's at any point.
For once, can anybody address the issue involving the final verdict on the GI's? For the sake of discussion, I ask anybody who has any background knowledge in law to please contribute to this discussion. I really don't know much about laws myself, and I really would like to know whether this decision really was fair or not. Would a similar verdict likely to be reached if the incident had happened in the continental US?? I'm really curious to see if all the commotion in Korea is actually uncalled-for. I have a lot to learn here, too.
TofuNinja
12-09-2002, 10:20 AM
Asking if a verdict is fair......isn't that a rhetorical question?
I mean if the Korean judicial system is anything like ours....
OJ walks free.... is it fair?
The only thing more shady than our judicial system is California Gov. Gray Davis.
Besides I don't know enough nor care enough about Korean Law to care about the fairness of the verdict.
Now let's focus on what is really important, Bush's claim that we have hard proof that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction... yeah let's go start a war just because someone's daddy couldn't get teh job done........
Yes no wonder us Americans are loved everywhere :angel:
molecularfire
12-09-2002, 11:30 AM
The only thing more shady than our judicial system is California Gov. Gray Davis.
And yet, he got re-elected. :heh: :heh:
bachviet
12-09-2002, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by molecularfire
And yet, he got re-elected. :heh: :heh:
It's the worst thing happened to California this year~! :angry: :angry:
molecularfire
12-09-2002, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by bachviet
It's the worst thing happened to California this year~! :angry: :angry:
Well... don't look at me. You guys voted for him. :P
bachviet
12-09-2002, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by molecularfire
Well... don't look at me. You guys voted for him. :P
No I didn't 'cauze I'm going for Republicans all the way but Bill Simon ran a bad campain! :angry:
Showtime
12-10-2002, 02:58 AM
sbp,
deep down I want to believe your just saying what you feel. But more and more it seems you have some kind of superiority complex.
Koreans owe us? They'd be communist Korea if it wasn't for us, right?
Why did we help?
Believe it or not you are exactly the type of person that those young flag burners in Korea are. You are passionate about your country and are willing to put down others to make a point. Subtlety doesn't seem to be characteristic of some people(at times especially me).
Kosovo? Why did we help. To stop people from ethnic cleansing, right? Maybe to help stabilize the region while it prepared for "after-communism." I think it had more to do with a potential oil line that will pipe through there, but maybe we wanted to help our fair skinned Christian and Muslim brothers from killing each other.
Cuz we are such a cool country!
We didnt go into Africa to stop ethnic cleansing going on there. Why?
They were killing each other over race/religion too. Maybe cuz they are African, maybe cuz there is no oil/benifit in doing so.
We did go in to save Kuwait. They are Middle easterners, they have oil, but we did it cuz it wasn't right to let those people get pillaged, raped and killed. Right?
TRUTH: We went into Korea to stop the spread of communism and to set up a foothold for democracy close to China/Russia. Can you argue that? Than basically the Korean people were helped cuz it helped us. Should they be grateful? Yes. They would probably be just like the God forsaken North if we didn't intervene. Does that give us a right to tell them not demonstrate or show their anger over the death of 2 girls? WE TAUGHT THEM TO PROTEST! IT'S THE AMERICAN WAY!
SBP quit whining. It's not the way a man behaives! Just be glad you live here in peace and you sister wasn't ran over by recklas tank driver.
Oh that wasn't cool of me. I apologize.
Isn't that exactly what you are saying to Korean people. Telling them to shut up and deal with it silently.
It's not cool that they burned our flag. What would you do to protest if you were them.
-jel:shrug:
ps: These views have been contemplated and thought out for years. I'm not trying to compete, just voice an opinion. Maybe me doing that makes me an ungrateful American?
ArkiStan: there were other cases besides that one and all that happened were the diplomats were sent packing. No firebombs were thrown, no flag burnings, no discrimination...
Yes, this has been thought about. It has been contemplated to give what is being wanted. And absolutely there's more to this than ungratefulness; South Korea is building a national identity by beating on another. Smells like a superiority complex in the works.
It appears people are being influenced just because they are of Korean descent. You know folks, my mother is an immigrant from Ireland who came here in 1964. I'd be damned if I allow some Irish person to run down this country time after time and shake the head in agreement. That goes for blood too. I don't run down their country, please don't run down mine.
The US is suppose to take it time after time. The US is supposed to be whipping boy for jealous people whenever they have a connipition fit. Can it not be understood that Americans are tired of being bashed? Is it any wonder Americans think of some as ingrates and whiners? Nope.
jel: you forgot Somalia which was helping dark skinned Africans from starving.
Looks like the only way to assuage is Bush's head on a platter.
It is not being said that folks can't peacefully protest, not demonstrate and to remain silent on matters. It has been pointed out these South Koreans are acting badly, hurting their cause and are taking attention away from the friction causing problems. In short these protestors make themselves and their behavior the problem. Being destructive is not the way to go.
For any other country in the world including this one when people act badly they are not held in esteem. Are these firebomb throwing South Koreans so special they get a pass?
Wonder how many US service people have been killed in South Korea over the years. Or it that not cared about?
Cantacuzene
12-10-2002, 11:27 AM
And absolutely there's more to this than ungratefulness; South Korea is building a national identity by beating on another. Smells like a superiority complex in the works.
Not to me. Sounds like they are trying to forge a national identity. Not every national identity is based on superiority like the US's. They just want to be heard and recognized as more than a pawn of the US.
The US is suppose to take it time after time. The US is supposed to be whipping boy for jealous people whenever they have a connipition fit. Can it not be understood that Americans are tired of being bashed?
My question is: who cares? At the end of the day we are richest, most powerful country in the world and they aren;t. Let them have their protests if that makes them happy. It doesn't affect us in any great way and it goes a long way towards progress.
you forgot Somalia which was helping dark skinned Africans from starving.
Yeah, real good work we did there. The people are STILL starving to this day. We pulled out when the going got tough. If we are such a powerful country, why did we run from a fight when they enemy started shooting back? If you look at what happened in Somalia it goes like this...
Warlords assume power and threaten 'vital US bases near the Red Sea.' Warlords are evil and begin starving their people. The US, being afraid of having battle casualties after Vietnam won't go into fight except with outnumbered special forces. Our policy is to air drop food to the starving people, in a hope that they will be so happy with the US that they will rebel against the warlord. Unfortunately the warlord steals the food that gets dropped in. We send in special forces to make sure the food gets into the people's hands. Our small units of special forces are swarmed by hundreds of somali goons. We take casualties and give out many more. The american press says the fight is getting too bloody so we pull out the special forces and let the people starve. Thats what happened in Somalia, and too me its a bit less inspiring than D-Day or Iwo Jima.
In short these protestors make themselves and their behavior the problem. Being destructive is not the way to go.
They don't actually believe that anything will change so their goal isnt to affect change. They are just venting anger. Did the Boston Tea Party get the English to leave the colonies? No, but it sure mad the patriots happy to do it.
Originally posted by Cantacuzene
Not to me. Sounds like they are trying to forge a national identity. Not every national identity is based on superiority like the US's. They just want to be heard and recognized as more than a pawn of the US.{pounds table} And South Korea should be independent and not a US pawn. Make it so! :D
My question is: who cares? At the end of the day we are richest, most powerful country in the world and they aren;t. Let them have their protests if that makes them happy. It doesn't affect us in any great way and it goes a long way towards progress.Ahhh. :eek: Arrogant Yankee who doesn't care about what other countries think, news at 11! ;)
Yeah, real good work we did there. The people are STILL starving to this day. We pulled out when the going got tough. If we are such a powerful country, why did we run from a fight when they enemy started shooting back? If you look at what happened in Somalia it goes like this...
Warlords assume power and threaten 'vital US bases near the Red Sea.' Warlords are evil and begin starving their people. The US, being afraid of having battle casualties after Vietnam won't go into fight except with outnumbered special forces. Our policy is to air drop food to the starving people, in a hope that they will be so happy with the US that they will rebel against the warlord. Unfortunately the warlord steals the food that gets dropped in. We send in special forces to make sure the food gets into the people's hands. Our small units of special forces are swarmed by hundreds of somali goons. We take casualties and give out many more. The american press says the fight is getting too bloody so we pull out the special forces and let the people starve. Thats what happened in Somalia, and too me its a bit less inspiring than D-Day or Iwo Jima.Guess Clintoon thought there was no vital interest there.
Yeah, all the other countries did good work there.
Like you said the problem lies with the warlords. Oh well can't win them all.
They don't actually believe that anything will change so their goal isnt to affect change. They are just venting anger. Did the Boston Tea Party get the English to leave the colonies? No, but it sure mad the patriots happy to do it.Right. These protestors know the US won't be leaving so they feel safe to bash. It would be a nice kick in the arse to say goodbye. :wavey2:
The whole thing is reminiscent of some "tough guy" who has his friends hold him back from "tearing up" a dude.
http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=1881257
"The United States said Tuesday it would consider modifying a treaty governing its troops in South Korea after Seoul warned that ties could be hurt by the deaths of two girls in an accident involving a U.S. military vehicle."
Terrible. This hurts the image of rotten, uncaring Yankee. And no more bonfires with American flags at least for the time being. :disa:
Cantacuzene
12-10-2002, 12:35 PM
I don;t think you are seeing it. You are arguing that we have the moral high ground, then when someone points out that we dont (such as somalia) you say, "cant win em all."
Can't have it both ways. Either we are the just and upstanding police for the world or we are oil hungry capitalists.
Originally posted by Cantacuzene
I don't think you are seeing it. You are arguing that we have the moral high ground, then when someone points out that we dont (such as somalia) you say, "cant win em all."Somalia was brought up as a counterpoint to the assertion by another person that the US basically acts when oil benefits are at stake and possibly ignores dark skinned people.
Oh so someone can't be on the moral high ground and not be successful?
Unless you believe the US shouldn't even have bothered in Somalia like the rest of the world.
Can't have it both ways. Either we are the just and upstanding police for the world or we are oil hungry capitalists.Who tried to have it both ways-not I.
Yes, it would be nice if the world started taking care of more of its own problems.
My question is: who cares? At the end of the day we are richest, most powerful country in the world. It doesn't affect us in any great way and it goes a long way towards progress.
Blitz
12-10-2002, 03:01 PM
I just wanted to add my 2 cents, didnt read all the other replies but...
If we do go to war with China, or North Korea, I just dont want the same thing to happen as it did in ww2. My grand parents where put in camps for being japanese, lost everything they owned and worked for...and had to start over when they came out.
I know that some people can tell, but most Americans cannot tell the difference between Korean and Japanese which is obvious to me at least...just dont want any discrimination going on as it has been towards arabs, etc, after sept 11.... Will be ww2 all over again...
go for broke!
AzN pRydE,
Blitz
molecularfire
12-10-2002, 06:30 PM
We did go in to save Kuwait. They are Middle easterners, they have oil, but we did it cuz it wasn't right to let those people get pillaged, raped and killed. Right?
I thought we helped out Kuwait because we owed them for helping us out during the oil crisis in the 70's.
TofuNinja
12-10-2002, 06:49 PM
Ok here is how I see it. America has done some bad we are better than you so kiss our butts or get nuked kind of things all over the world. Who cares if Koreans are having anti USA protests, if they did it here on our soil they'd be given an LAPD beating. Just liek if we burned their flag in their country we'd get a caning we'd never forget. It is all about being cowards. or something like that.
But the real bottom line is that Gray Davis sucks. He only one because he A) Hand picked Simon to run against him by running attack ads during the primaries. In that sense Gov Davis flew the Jumbo Jet of corruption into the Twin Towers of Freedom and Democracy. B) Bill Simon ran a horrid Horrid campaign.
So I ask you, who is more scary? Gov Davis, The Koreans, Osama Bin Laden or Saddam....Seeing as Davis and the Koreans are the only ones that would affect me in So cal.... I'd say Davis.
zenbooty
12-10-2002, 07:54 PM
Tofu Ninja you're cracking me up!
You're becoming my new hero.
molecularfire
12-11-2002, 12:10 PM
:stupid: (man... I can't believe that I'm agreeing with zenbooty). :D
btw: welcome back man. :)
Grimm
12-11-2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by molecularfire
I thought we helped out Kuwait because we owed them for helping us out during the oil crisis in the 70's.
Yup.
TofuNinja
12-15-2002, 09:21 AM
There wa a picture in the OC register (paper edition) that showed a bunch of Koreans ripping a giant US flag.
While it boils my AMerican blood (yes Asians can have American Blood) to see this when I looked at the picture tons of Koreans are smiling and stuff. Then I started to think while I was taking a dump (no I don't always think of Koreans when I'm takinga dump seriously) That this is more of a mob mentality. I can bet that most of those Koreans don't know why they are ripping up the American flag. Half of them look like the girlfriends of the erate men or something. Maybe they decided that instead of being on their knees doing other things they'd would help rip a flag. I mean at least they won't choke you know.
This reminded me of when the Lakers won their first of three championships. Idiots started to riot and people just joined in. It looked like fun and most likely they thought it was fun. I think these Koreans said hey, they are ripping a flag, that looks like fun, let's do that. And hey it beats being on your knees I guess.
The thing I find really funny however is that the the South Korean are protesting the US military, while their government is kissing our @$$ to protect them from the Evil North Koreans Nuclear program... yeah... that cannot have their cake and eat it too. They either need to get on their knees and choke or continue to rip that flag and and eat Nuclear North Korean Smoke.
ArkiStan
12-16-2002, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by TofuNinja
... That this is more of a mob mentality. I can bet that most of those Koreans don't know why they are ripping up the American flag....
Yes that's a definite possibility and I'm sure there are some like that. Now before you wipe your a$$, try thinking about other possible reasons why they might be doing it. (hint: previous posts mention some of them).
TofuNinja
12-16-2002, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by ArkiStan
Yes that's a definite possibility and I'm sure there are some like that. Now before you wipe your a$$, try thinking about other possible reasons why they might be doing it. (hint: previous posts mention some of them).
Yes I have read the previous posts or have you failed to see my other postings?
ArkiStan
12-17-2002, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by TofuNinja
Yes I have read the previous posts or have you failed to see my other postings?
Sorry I don't usually read others' posts while taking dumps...
:P
TofuNinja
12-17-2002, 11:40 AM
Whoa you take your laptop into the bathroom with you.... are you sure you are taking a dump or are you looking at the "stuff" you downloaded froM Kaazar :cool:
http://www.lemonizer.com/uploads/story.korea.ustroops.jpg http://www.lemonizer.com/uploads/story.flag.rip.jpg
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,5686727%255E401,00.html
AN unarmed US army lieutenant colonel has been attacked by knife-wielding South Korean men outside a US army base amid simmering anti-US sentiment.
Three South Koreans in their early 20s attacked the officer late Sunday as he left Yongsan, the main US military base in central Seoul, and was walking to his home.
The officer was treated at a US army hospital for a cut on his left side and minor abrasions and bruises, it said. South Korean police were looking for the Koreans.
The unprovoked attack came amid growing anti-US setiment sparked by the recent acquittal of two US soldiers charged over the deaths of two South Korean girls in a road accident involving a US military vehicle.
The attack began when the Koreans insulted the officer and cursed at him in English as they approached him in an underpass, according to the US military statement.
The officer did not respond to the provocation, attempting to pass the Koreans peacefully, but they attacked him from behind.
One of the Koreans then punched the officer between his shoulders, shoving him headfirst into the underpass wall, while a second man lunged at him, attempting to stab him in the stomach with a five-inch knife, it said.
"He was able to twist away, but sustained a minor cut to his left side where the knife grazed him," it said.
The attack ended when Boylan struck the knife-wielding attacker once in self-defense and left the scene, it said.
http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/12/16/korea.us.attack.reut/
"...three U.S. soldiers said they were attacked by South Koreans after a minor traffic accident.
In another altercation early on Sunday morning, three U.S. soldiers said their car was rear-ended by a taxi, whose South Korean occupants then got into a fight with the Americans."
ek5686
12-19-2002, 12:55 PM
sbp,
i'm sorry to say, you're a fool. You have such a biased view and it just makes you look silly. Yea, i've read whatever it is you had to say, but in all fairness and judgement, you're nothing but a fool. yea, i understand that what those "younguns" and koreans are doing is not right by protesting and such, but why are you so bothered by it? does them protesting affect you in any way? you go off calling them names and putting them down without even knowing their position. i'm a little irritated myself that this whole ACCIDENT occurred but honestly, what can i do? what can you do? you talk as if this really hits home to you and that its going to affect how you live you arrogant american life. respect yourself and respect your own dignity, if you have any left. and if you call yourself an american, just consider yourself an american fool. you're so close-minded and so limited by the american way. yea, american way might be best to you but what is best for others is not the same. complete fool...simply put it...fool. keep talking and say whatever you have to say, respond however you want to respond, but just keep in mind, i think i said it already...but you sound like a fool.
zenbooty
12-19-2002, 01:35 PM
Uh oh, everybody take cover!!!
:argue:
"You have such a biased view and it just makes you look silly." Oh and you don't friend?
http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45953
Hey at least the caps lock was learned to be turned off http://sbp777.homestead.com/files/icon10happy.gif
Ultimately this is disapointment with the way some South Koreans are acting.
Unless you believe its okay for these South Koreans to do whatever they want, but no one dare to say anything in objection. After all these are South Koreans-they are above reproach. http://home.earthlink.net/~sbp777/smilies/rolleye.gif
The evidence overwhelming shows certain South Koreans are acting badly yet you choose to focus elsewhere. http://www.pcabusers.net/forums/images/icons/headshaker.gif And damn look more attacks on Americans there (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-attacks19dec19,0,7883051.story).
"In September, three U.S. soldiers were assaulted in the subway and one was briefly abducted by South Korean students on their way to an anti-American demonstration."
Do you sit there and treat those who provide for you like crap?
Guess Americans and others are just supposed to take it time after time and not say anything. Would South Koreans sit and smile while its soldiers were attacked, bases firebombed and whatnot? Judging from the evidence hell no.
ek5686
12-19-2002, 04:47 PM
sbp,
first off, i'm not your friend.
Second, you again prove my theory which is very simple. you are a fool. plain and simple. and if you are able to read and comprehend peoples' posts, you should have been able to understand that i too believe that what the south korean people are doing is wrong. freaking moron. i have a biased opinion? you're so stuck on bashing others and putting down people with names just says that you're biased. idiot. oh and by the way, yea s. korea needed help back in the days and they still do need help. so they asked. and what happened? usa helped. so don't be sitting there telling me that they treat usa like crap. it was us' decision to go over there and help s. korea.
people like you is what makes americans look so stupid. honestly, fools like you just makes america embarassed. you're a fool. nothing but a fool. you're probably going to try to come back with some other response that makes you feel better because you can go on and on about this and debate making you feel smart. but the bottom line is, after this incident is over, you're the one who is a fool. you're the one who lets it get to you when it doesn't even affect you.
so let me ask you this simple question: after all that has happened what are you going to do? honestly, what are you going to do my foolish fool?
Nice way to put down America and like you know any better.
This has upset you a person of Korean descent. You should be sickened by what is happening in South Korea. Or is that too much to ask? Are you another one of these folks who live in the US, take advantage of all it offers and don't support it? Apparently so.
We can keep around and around amigo. Meanwhile the list of despicable acts directed at Americans continues to grow.
Some will continue to try to focus on those who call attention to badly behaving dimwits instead of these shameful acts. That would be humorous if it wasn't so sad.
It really is time to let South Korea grow up and fend for itself. Not just for reasons outlined above, but also for our soldiers safety. Its bad enough the North Koreans threatened the US (http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/12/14/korea.nukes/index.html) all because North Korea got caught developing nukes which they said they wouldn't do. But to have your own allies assault you, well that goes beyond the beyond. :disa: Just know Japan and other countries won't put up with this lame bashing either for long.
ek5686
12-19-2002, 10:52 PM
sbp
i think it so sad when i see people like you. people who are so bothered that others come into this nation and use its resources that is offers. you're proabably one of those people who was brought up with parents who taught you the wrongs in life. just about every wrong thing possible. for you to have such a hateful, vengefull and merciless heart...now that is sad. were you raised somewhere where you weren't fortunate to have all the things you wanted but now have and have become some selfish, arrogant, confident, somewhat educated person who lives in the usa? people like you really make this world a terrible place to live. people like you encourage what is obviously the wrong. yea, people do wrong in this world and you just add to it. this world would probably be a better place without you.
you know, i agree with you in the fact that what the south koreans are doing is wrong, but let me point out to you again, i don't judge them. what can you do? you can complain and b1tch all you want but what is that going to do? where is that going to take you? are you going to do something about it? i mean unless you're the president of this country or have some power, what are you going to do? now maybe if you told me that you went out and approached some koreans and discussed this issue, then maybe i would respect some of the words your write. but the fact is, i bet you're too coward to even talk about it with a korean.
and for your information, i'm an american. i was born here, i was raised here, and i will be who i am. if you have a problem with that, then let me know. maybe we can discuss that in another topic.
but still, my theory still holds true. you still come back with words that you believe is to be correct or the truth because you think you are right and it makes you feel smarter. actually, you're just fool. like pointed out, and arrogant fool who doesn't know any better. stop being so arrogant and open your eyes.
TofuNinja
12-20-2002, 12:15 AM
Kimeh,
My fellow asian american... what the hell is wrong with you.. look at yourself before you judge others. You talk about tolerance and what not butyou are spreading your hate at Sbp. This is America, land of the free home of the brave. Many many people have fought and spilled their blood to give us, all of us, that right. And many more men and women will die again defending our rights. Just as sbp has teh right to voice his discontent about the crimes of the South Koreans, you have the right to complain about him, and I have the right to call you whatever the Hell I want. You talk of misguided views? Says who? YOU??? A Korean American, if that? TO be American is the feel the pain of every other American. If we are attacked, we all show sorrow or anger. THat being said under yoru logic we here So Cal, where I live, shouldn't have given a damn when the World Trade Center went down, because it is too far away for us to give a damn about. There is nothing we could have done.
True, ther is nothign we could have done to prevent it, but you know what, our Love for America gave us the strength to stand united. American Pride was running wild baby. Though it felt more like a fad in So Cal, people trading in their Laker flags for Old GLory, but you know what... it felt damn good to see my flag everywhere I turned. I love America and if someone hurts it I get pissed!
What can I do? I can speak my mind, voice my opinion, let others know my love for America, just like Sbp is. He may not have the best way of expressing his views but I know this, Sbp like me bleeds American blood. Sbp, like me gets pissed off to see our men getting attacked for no reason.
THink about it, the Koreans are mad at something that they see as a wrong. If it happened here there would be riots. You know it. But is it the fault of our men? It is the fault of the Korean courts.
I have Asian blood just like you, but I am American baby! What will I do? ANything that my abilities allow me to do to make sure our fellow Americans can come home safely. If that means bitching on a off topic board so be it. It is better than standing idle and doing nothing.
So what will I do? What the hell do you care what I will do? If you want to turn your back on America fine go ahead. Be like that.
So what will I do? I'll stand up for America when our men and women of the armed forces need me too, and bash the government for putting our men in the line of fire when they should be home safe with their families.
SO what will I do? Will I stand still while South Koreans and other terrorist attack our men and women?
What will I do?
Go ahead call me all the names you called sbp, it would be an honor! I rather be a foolish Patriot than to turn my back on America.
What will I do? Answer it, Kimeh answer it. You seem to know what all foolish Patriots do. Answer it. Tell me what I'll do....
TofuNinja
12-20-2002, 12:37 AM
I just want to remind people that there are always two sides to a story. Arkistan has pointed this out countless times and it is true. Again the South Koreans and Korean Americans probably have just cause to be pissed. JUST as Americans of all kinds have just cause to the anti-American actions of not just South Koreans, but of many of the nations of the world that bash us. Thank you.
ek5686
12-20-2002, 09:24 AM
tofuninja,
i have no problem with what people have opinions about. but when people take their opinions and go overboard and calling them names what are they doing? they're lowering themselves to the levels of those who attack us americans. if we want to stand proud as americans, you need to maintain your pride and have the ability to rise above it. yea, i agree with both you and sbp about what the s koreans are doing, it is flat out wrong. you can voice your opinion, i can voice an opinion..anybody is allowed to voice an opinion. but it saddens me every time when we americans, when we know we are the strongest, greatest nation (right now), stoop down to the levels of those who try to hurt us. it only hurts us more when we do fall down to the levels of those s koreans protesting nonsense.
all i am saying is that, we accidently killed two girls, we said sorry, korea protests, now we should wait for them to forgive us. thats it. plain and simple. why do we call them names? why do we talk like the way sbp does? it only hurts the americans who are stationed there keeping peace. what happens when a korean citizen in korea reads a post like sbp's? how does that person react? doesn't that make them more agitated?
simple. that is the only thing that we can do...keep it simple.
TofuNinja
12-20-2002, 09:32 AM
I've been thinking about the last string of posts here instead of studying for my math final, which is today. Where it is wrong to stoop to the level of the groups attacking us, I think it is a lot safer for Sbp to vent out his anger here on the off topic board than to act it out on a Korean. Our freedom of speech is great. It allows us to speak our mind and to vent out our anger, however with such a great freedom comes comes responsibility (I know I read tosn of SPiderman comics as a kid). Take Trentt Lott, he resigned today or will be. He used his freedom of speech, and he had to pay for his freedom. Sbp shares a view that many Americans have, even you and me. And he vented out his anger in a way you wouldn't have. and he has to take the heat for it. Just like you and me have to take teh heat for our words.
Personally I rather read Sbp venting and calling people names here than to read about Sbp going on a killing spree in a major newspaper :)
ek5686
12-20-2002, 09:54 AM
tofuninja,
point well taken. simple.
speedracer120
12-27-2002, 12:35 PM
Sorry to resurect a dying thread.
I think this article pretty much sums up in a better way what the majority Koreans and Korean Americans feel.
NYT Editorial on US Troop Pullout Sparks Controversy
Linkage (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/lpage/200212/kt2002122718434510440.htm)
A New York Times editorial suggesting the United States should begin pulling its troops out of South Korea reflects the misconception by Americans of the nature of the ongoing anti-U.S. protests, civic leaders said yesterday.
``They are barking up the wrong tree,¡¯¡¯ a spokesperson of a coalition of civic groups Kim Sun-mi said.
``It is proved again that Americans don¡¯t understand the nature of the anti-U.S. sentiment,¡¯¡¯ she said.
``We don¡¯t want to think the editorial has political motives. Citizens have been taking to the streets to call for an equal relationship between South Korea and the United States. They are not there to demand the withdrawal of the U.S. troops,¡¯¡¯ she added. ``But we will take it positively because it is a sign that conservatives of the country have started to take the matter seriously.¡¯¡¯
No comment was immediately available from the Defense Ministry.
The editorial printed Thursday said the United States should withdraw its military to ``stop North Korea from becoming the Asian arsenal of terror.¡¯¡¯
It said, ``The majority of South Korea¡¯s voters, who owe their freedom over the past half-century to the U.S. military, are angry at the continued presence of 37,000 American troops on their soil. They elected a leader Roh (pronounced No) who wants a repeat of Clinton's fruitless 1994 cave-in.¡¯¡¯
``Because the U.S. is not an imperialist power, it does not belong where a democratic nation decides America is unwanted. Moreover, our ground forces have never been there to resist an invasion by an army well over a million, but as a tripwire to make certain American air and sea power would be used immediately to help the South¡¯s army resist aggression.¡¯¡¯
``After a half-century, we no longer need a tripwire of troops to force our decision to defend Seoul from ground attack; our primary concern is to defend our homeland from nuclear missiles. We would have far greater freedom of action to take out a dangerous nuclear facility in North Korea if our nearby ground troops were not hostage to massive counterattack across the old DMZ.¡¯¡¯
Anti-American sentiment has worsened here since a jury of the U.S. military acquitted two servicemen in late November of negligent homicide charges in the deaths of two Korean teenage girls. The soldiers, who have left South Korea, were in an armored vehicle when it hit and killed the girls during a training mission in June.
Slogans for a withdrawal of the U.S. troops were chanted by some during masses to mourn the deaths of the girls and firebombs were thrown at some U.S. military compounds by student radicals, but most of the participants didn¡¯t support violent moves.
``The protest rallies are aimed at calling on the U.S. government to try to ensure an increased voice for the South Korean government in dealing with affairs involving us, such as North Korea,¡¯¡¯ a member of the Professors¡¯ Council for Democratization Kim So-jung said.
In a survey conducted on Dec. 14, when the anti-U.S. sentiment was at its peak with tens of thousands of citizens holding a massive candlelight vigil in a plaza in front of Seoul City Hall, about 55 percent of respondents said they don¡¯t want the U.S. troops to leave.
Anti-U.S. feeling is widespread among members of the younger generations, but nearly half of them answered they support American military presence.
``Many Americans still don¡¯t understand why citizens are taking to the streets for demonstrations,¡¯¡¯ a member of the Lawyers¡¯ Association for a Democratic Society Kwon Jong-ho said. ``The students are simply frustrated by the fact that no one was held responsible in the accident when two girls were killed.¡¯¡¯
Protesters have demanded a direct and open apology from U.S. President George W. Bush and a revision of the Status of Forces Agreement to give more jurisdiction to South Korean authorities over crimes committed by U.S. soldiers.
Many South Koreans believe the court martial ruling was unfair and indicated the United States does not take the Korean people seriously.
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