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kimchicowboy
11-26-2002, 05:05 PM
http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/11/26/education.korea.japan.ap/index.html

GENEVA, Switzerland (AP) -- South Korea has the most effective education system of the world's richest countries, with Japan in second place and the United States and Germany near the bottom, a United Nations study has said.

The ranking "provides the first 'big picture' comparison of the relative effectiveness of education systems across the developed world," the United Nations Children's Fund study said.

"It is based not on the conventional yardstick of how many students reach what level of education, but on testing what pupils actually know and what they are able to do," UNICEF said.

It said it based the study on five different tests of 14- and 15-year-olds to determine their abilities in reading, math and science.

What is new about the study is that it averages the results to give "the most comprehensive picture to date of how well each nation's education system is functioning as a whole," UNICEF said.

The blame or credit does not go exclusively to a nation's schools, said the 36-page study, part of a series of "report cards" produced by UNICEF's Innocenti Research Center in Florence, Italy.

"It is clear that educational disadvantage is born not at school but in the home," said the report. "Learning begins at birth" and is fostered by "a loving, secure, stimulating environment."

UNICEF spokesman Patrick McCormick said the study had been unable to draw conclusions on a range of factors, such as how much was spent on education. Some countries spent less and did better.

The study also didn't get into whether extreme competition was a factor in Japanese or Korean results.

"We didn't really get into why. We found out that there was no one answer," McCormick said. "We tried linkages with the teacher-student ratios, with various things, and it didn't work.

"The biggest thing is obviously the socio-economic background of the child and how well-educated their parents are."

Head of the class
UNICEF said it based its conclusions on combining results of tests conducted by the Program for International Student Assessment, or PISA, and the Trends in International Math and Science Study, or TIMSS. It said it also factored in results of the International Adult Literacy Survey.

"South Korea and Japan sit firmly at the head of the class," it said. "Germany, with its strong educational and intellectual tradition, occupies 19th place out of the 24 nations," just behind the United States in 18th place.

Germany stands out by sorting children at an early age into professional, white-collar and blue-collar curricula, the study said. The German labor market's demands for particular qualifications "meant that the track a child ends up in has a particularly strong impact on later life," it said.

The study noted that Korea finished at the top of two key tests and Portugal finished at the bottom of both, but that the rankings in between varied markedly, "illustrating the danger of relying exclusively on any one study."

In a test of reading, Belgium and Switzerland finished 19th and 20th, but in a test of math and science, Belgium was third and Switzerland fifth.

Germany and Denmark finished in the bottom half in both the tests on reading and math, but scored high in a separate evaluation of adult literacy, "again illustrating the danger of treating any one survey with undue reverence," the study said.

The United States, however, finished low in each test and in adult literacy.

McCormick said the study had not attempted to explain why the United States had fared badly.

"That's for them to pick up and run with," said McCormick. "It's that sort of country. The countries that economically are very diverse, with big immigrant populations, with lots of moving around, with a huge poverty gap, probably are going to show these sorts of results with education itself."

*****
not sure if it's like this in the other industrialized nations, but for korean students, the college entrance exam is like their life. they study like crazy before it and when they get into college, they just chill. heh.

Capricornholio
11-26-2002, 05:31 PM
The United States likely received a poor score because we are too busy being concered with who/what we pledge to at the start of the day rather than curriculum! Frivilous B.S. :mad4:

sbp
11-26-2002, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Capricornholio
The United States likely received a poor score because we are too busy being concered with who/what we pledge to at the start of the day rather than curriculum! Frivilous B.S. :mad4: Yeah right. http://sbp777.homestead.com/files/laugh44.gif

Seeing whats part {or not part} of the curriculum today and what government run schools are involved with, it should be no surprise the US scores poorly. And as the report clearly points out, there are other are other reasons.

spigidygak
11-26-2002, 05:58 PM
probably also has to do with schools in south korea meeting 6 days a week. . .

hang10wannabe
11-26-2002, 07:11 PM
well, according to my poll, im smart, sho.guns smart, my friends are smart, and lots of people i know are smart, so to me?... the US is the BEST! ;)

Bires
11-26-2002, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Capricornholio
The United States likely received a poor score because we are too busy being concered with who/what we pledge to at the start of the day rather than curriculum! Frivilous B.S. :mad4:

You watch too much TV.

Actually, planning and rebuilding curriculum is what occupies most of OUR development time, but you won't hear the media talking about how many teachers and administrators got together on their own time to find better ways to do more with less.

And that's ultimately one of the biggest problems with education: respect for it at home and at the voting booth. Education is expensive, but everyone wants someone else to pay for it.

Education should also be a three-sided element; school, home, society. Parents expect their students to be out of the house for seven hours a day, and come back happy geniouses. When they bother to open the progress reports that come home, they discover that their student hasn't been doing his homework. Who do they blame for the student not doing homework? (hint: not the student)

Keep in mind that teachers are public servants. (That means we SERVE the people.) I possess extensive education in the physical sciences, and several computer certifications, yet I work for less than what a journeyman plumber makes, and I'm not alone. Ask your local math or science teacher how much he or she can make in the private sector versus teaching. You'll be blow away how little a teacher gets paid (even with a Master's degree)

Teaching is a rough occupation, and many teachers are barely getting by. Many are forced to leave the job they love and are excellent at to seek better paying jobs, and losing expert teachers hurts public education.

No hard feelings, :cheers: but please refrain from mindless bandwagon-bashing public education. At the very least, make yourself aware of the real issues that have hurt public education in the US in the past thirty years.

Capricornholio
11-26-2002, 07:54 PM
No hard feelings, but please refrain from mindless bandwagon-bashing public education. At the very least, make yourself aware of the real issues that have hurt public education in the US in the past thirty years.

No, no please don't read to far into what I said. I definitely have no ill feelings toward teachers, but rather the powers that be that spend too much time on banter and not enough on real issues or improvements.

Napoleon54
11-26-2002, 07:59 PM
Bires speaks from experience and with wisdom. Well said.

Some parents today... sheesh. They simply are not responsible for their children. :angry:

Napoleon54
11-26-2002, 08:07 PM
I'd say that S. Korea is doing quite well. My school has tons of Korean students and several professors. Heck, just a few months ago we hired another new professor from Korea. She brought 6 students with her.

All of the major educational institutions have large foreign student populations. The US has by far the best educational system in the world at the college and graduate level. But we have few students that are worthy. We have to go overseas to find good students.

Capricornholio
11-26-2002, 08:27 PM
Imagine if we devoted our multi-billion dollar defense or foreign aid budget into our school systems.

revil
11-26-2002, 08:40 PM
This article doesn't suprise me one bit. We're freaking breeding idiots in the US... and then idiots got in to power and think it's ok to be stupid.

Napoleon54
11-26-2002, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by Capricornholio
Imagine if we devoted our multi-billion dollar defense or foreign aid budget into our school systems.

It wouldn't change much, IMO. We might retain a few teachers and pay them better, but the real problem w/ our education system is our attitude toward it. Parents don't take responsibility for their childrens' education. Doesn't matter if the kids ride to school in a gold-plated school bus. What matters is that parents don't take an active part in education. How about cutting back on government spending across the board and lowering taxes to the point where only one parent needs to work. The other can stay home w/ the kids. Or parents can redefine their priorities, develop a budget, and do all that in spite of the taxes. Prioritize quality time with your children instead of your career or the fringe benefits of a bigger income. Do more with less. Be responsible.

hapoo
11-26-2002, 08:48 PM
I haven't read what anyone posted yet, but i will say this much. Putting children under pressure, scholastic or other is NOT healthy. Do they have an effective educational system, or do they put pressure on the children to do well? I've seen the effects of this on many people, and imo its not worth it.

Tse How
11-26-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by hapoo
I haven't read what anyone posted yet, but i will say this much. Putting children under pressure, scholastic or other is NOT healthy. Do they have an effective educational system, or do they put pressure on the children to do well? I've seen the effects of this on many people, and imo its not worth it.

I disagree somewhat. I think the kids in the U.S. are lacking because there's NOT ENOUGH pressure on them, if any at all, in terms of education. They do what they want, whenever they want with a lot of stupid parents not encouring, not pushing their kids in the right direction. Pressure is GOOD thing, just not too much of it. The difficulty is finding a right balance.

hang10wannabe
11-26-2002, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by hapoo
I haven't read what anyone posted yet, but i will say this much. Putting children under pressure, scholastic or other is NOT healthy. Do they have an effective educational system, or do they put pressure on the children to do well? I've seen the effects of this on many people, and imo its not worth it.

agreed, and doesnt japan have the highest suicide rate amoungst students? :hmm:

hapoo
11-26-2002, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by Tse How


I disagree somewhat. I think the kids in the U.S. are lacking because there's NOT ENOUGH pressure on them, if any at all, in terms of education. They do what they want, whenever they want with a lot of stupid parents not encouring, not pushing their kids in the right direction. Pressure is GOOD thing, just not too much of it. The difficulty is finding a right balance.


ohh no, i wasn't commenting on the educational system in america. I've seen enough dumbasses to know it isn't working. I was talking about those countries voted the best.

kimchicowboy
11-27-2002, 01:30 AM
it's true that those countries (like japan) put a tremendous amount of emphasis on the pre-college education. but i context of society, the children are led into their future occupation at an early age. a coworker of mine is a graduate student from japan and she brought her daughter with her here. she doesn't want her elementary-aged daughter to go through the same education system she went through, but would rather have her daughter become her own individual through the system here. :shrug:

molecularfire
11-27-2002, 11:40 AM
I haven't read what anyone posted yet, but i will say this much. Putting children under pressure, scholastic or other is NOT healthy. Do they have an effective educational system, or do they put pressure on the children to do well? I've seen the effects of this on many people, and imo its not worth it.

The amount of pressure school puts you through is nowhere near the amount you're going to get in life. Better to get used to it early. The last thing that we need is a bunch of adults who can't handle the pressure.


agreed, and doesnt japan have the highest suicide rate amoungst students?

So does Cornell. Is anyone here going to say that it's not a good school? The top of the ladder is not meant for everybody. Just those strong enough to be worthy of it.

hapoo
11-27-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by molecularfire


The amount of pressure school puts you through is nowhere near the amount you're going to get in life. Better to get used to it early. The last thing that we need is a bunch of adults who can't handle the pressure.


Just like you said, its not meant for everyone. Not everyone can handle the pressure some school systems put on them. I think its much better to let the person decide where they want to put themselves in society based on what they can handle. Sure its great to have a high standard for all students, but just think about this: The average IQ is 100, that means for every 105IQ, 110IQ, 115IQ, theres a 95, 90 etc, all competing.

Tse How
11-27-2002, 06:01 PM
I'm actually a middle school English teacher here in Japan and the kids really don't have pressure in school. Seriously. Where the pressure lies is AFTER school, where they go to the special cram schools, regularly 2 hours a night, 3 nights a week. This is for the purpose of preparing for the national exam which determines which high schools/colleges you can enter. Unlike the SATs, these tests are the ONLY determining factor in whether or not you make it or not. There is no GPA, no essay, no extra curricular activites taken into account. Only THE TEST. My school actually for the most part has REALLY GOOD kids. But when I look into classrooms, there's always 1 or 2 kids just sleeping on their table, full out. The teachers can't do anything with them, can't tell them to wake up or get out. Why? Because its Japanese Law that states every child has the right to be in a classroom, even if its disruptive to other kids. Now sleepy kids may not be disruptive, but I have this one 12 year old that is BAD. The detremental effect he has on his classmates is so evident.

Anyways, what I'm saying is, kids in Japan can do ANYTHING THEY WANT in school with little fear for discipline. Believe me, I have friends who teach at REALLY BAD SCHOOLS. The PRESSURE though, comes from the after school "cram schools" because of the National Test.

Well, that's just my input.

attgig
11-28-2002, 08:27 AM
yeah, that 'cram school' culture is in america too among asians...
i went through the same crap with SAT's here..
did ok on them, but doesn't say or mean much....

kinda annoying...but eh...that's the culture....

molecularfire
11-28-2002, 11:10 AM
Just like you said, its not meant for everyone. Not everyone can handle the pressure some school systems put on them. I think its much better to let the person decide where they want to put themselves in society based on what they can handle. Sure its great to have a high standard for all students, but just think about this: The average IQ is 100, that means for every 105IQ, 110IQ, 115IQ, theres a 95, 90 etc, all competing.
Yeah, but it would be nice to have the option for those who do want harder schools. In my high school, they really couldn't have to many advanced classes for those who wanted to go to good colleges because there were only 7 of us. btw: my IQ in high school was 85. I think it has gone up since then. So, I think IQs are overrated. If you want to do well... then work hard. If not... then quit complaining. :)