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sbp
12-03-2002, 03:45 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/12/03/oldest.skull/index.html

Researchers said it may be the oldest skull ever found in the Americas: an elongated-faced woman who died about 13,000 years ago.

But perhaps more significant than the age, researchers said, is that the skull and other bones were found while digging a well near Mexico City International Airport. Because the remains were discovered outside the United States, scientists will be able to study the DNA and structure of the skeleton without the objection of Native American groups, who can claim and rebury ancestral remains under a 1990 U.S. law.

"Here Mexico is providing the opportunity to see what clues these bones can yield about man's arrival in the American continent," Mexican anthropologist Jose Concepcion Jimenez Lopez said.

The oldest skull up to now, believed to be that of "Buhl Woman," was found in 1989 at a gravel quarry in Idaho. Scientists said it dates back 10,500 to 11,000 years. But researchers scarcely studied those bones before the Shoshone-Bannock tribe claimed and reburied them.

The "Peņon Woman III" -- which scientists believe is now the oldest skull from the New World -- has been sitting in Mexico City's National Museum of Anthropology since 1959.

At the insistence of geologist Silvia Gonzalez, who had a hunch that the bones were older than previously thought, the remains were taken to Oxford University to be carbon-dated. And indeed, tests proved Gonzalez's assertion.

Scientists said they believe that the Peņon Woman died anywhere from 12,700 to 13,000 years ago at the age of 27.

Did man arrive in the Americas by boat?

Emboldened by her finding, Gonzalez will try to prove her theory that the bones of the Peņon Woman belong not to Native Americans, but to descendants of the Ainu people of Japan.

She said she bases her hypothesis on the elongated, narrow shape of the Peņon Woman's skull. Native Americans, she said, are round-faced with broad cheeks. "Quite different from Peņon Woman," she said.

She said she believes descendants of the Ainu people made their way to the New World by island hoping on boats.

"If this proves right, it's going to be quite contentious," said Gonzalez, who teaches at John Moores University in England and received a grant last week from the British government to conduct her research. "We're going to say to Native Americans, 'Maybe there were some people in the Americas before you, who are not related to you.' "

Gonzalez's theory is controversial but gaining credence in scientific circles, where up to now many believed hardy mammoth hunters were first to arrive in the Americas 14,000 to 16,000 years ago by crossing into Alaska from Siberia.

Gonzalez and other scientists said they believe people may have arrived in America as much as 25,000 years ago. She points to evidence of camps -- man-made tools, a human footprint and huts dating back 25,000 years -- that have been found in Chile as evidence of man's imprint on the Americas long before mammoth hunters.

Searching for answers to coastal migration

Gonzalez will embark on a three-year journey to prove her theory. As part of that journey, she will travel to Baja California to study the Pericue people, who shared the same elongated faces of the Peņon Woman. She said she believes that the Pericue, who for unknown reasons went extinct in the 18th century, may hold the answers to coastal migration of man from Asia to America.

The bones of the Peņon Woman will have DNA extracted to compare it with genetic matter of the Pericue, she said. Scientists also said they hope to study clothes fibers found near the skeleton and try to piece together how the woman died. Gonzalez said the skeleton does not show any wounds or obvious injuries.

"We still have a long way to go," she said. "But we have a good start."

InfiniteNothing
12-03-2002, 05:22 PM
Pretty cool, I don't see why this would change anything. The "Native" Americans still have a pretty solid claim to land. I was suprised they had boats back then. I guess I just don't know that much about prehistory. It would be cool to learn that there are no native Americans, that we are all imigrants.

LPMiller
12-03-2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by InfiniteNothing
Pretty cool, I don't see why this would change anything. The "Native" Americans still have a pretty solid claim to land. I was suprised they had boats back then. I guess I just don't know that much about prehistory. It would be cool to learn that there are no native Americans, that we are all imigrants.

Well..uh, there aren't any native americans, we are all immigrants. They either crossed the Alaskan bridge, or, as some are starting to say, they crossed over from Europe, following a possible ice bridge from england over greenland to canada. Which is quite possible, during the ice age. Or, as this lady said, maybe even boats, though I have to wonder how the heck they did it.

i6s1
12-03-2002, 06:28 PM
Oh, nevermind, from the title I thought this was another George Bush joke thread.

coleslaw
12-03-2002, 07:01 PM
http://stromwatch.com/images/strom.gif

InfiniteNothing
12-03-2002, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by LPMiller


Well..uh, there aren't any native americans, we are all immigrants. They either crossed the Alaskan bridge, or, as some are starting to say, they crossed over from Europe, following a possible ice bridge from england over greenland to canada. Which is quite possible, during the ice age. Or, as this lady said, maybe even boats, though I have to wonder how the heck they did it.

I'm not sure I belive you. Not that I know any better. Do you have a refrence I can look at. It seems like there have always been people around here. When was the ice bridge broken? Why do Indians look distinct from every other race? I've been studying up on my prehistory but I've only looked at animals: weird crap like whales with superfluous legs. It made evolution seem obvious.

welfareloser
12-03-2002, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by InfiniteNothing


I'm not sure I belive you. Not that I know any better. Do you have a refrence I can look at. It seems like there have always been people around here. When was the ice bridge broken? Why do Indians look distinct from every other race? I've been studying up on my prehistory but I've only looked at animals: weird crap like whales with superfluous legs. It made evolution seem obvious.

all of humanity descended from a single female. that female was in africa. so if you ain't in africa, you's an immigrant. period.

InfiniteNothing
12-03-2002, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by welfareloser


all of humanity descended from a single female. that female was in africa. so if you ain't in africa, you's an immigrant. period.

How do you figure? Again.. refrence? Is this the current evolutionary theory? I'm not doubting you...okay I am just a little but respectfully.

CornMonkey
12-03-2002, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by InfiniteNothing


I'm not sure I belive you. Not that I know any better. Do you have a refrence I can look at. It seems like there have always been people around here. When was the ice bridge broken? Why do Indians look distinct from every other race? I've been studying up on my prehistory but I've only looked at animals: weird crap like whales with superfluous legs. It made evolution seem obvious.
to me, native americans look asian...if you go to alaska, the eskimos REALLY look asian. well, not really asian, but more siberian/mongolian. anyhoo...

infinite, are you saying that you've never heard of the bering strait migration? i think i can recall all the way back to junior high when i first heard about it... here's a link (http://www.cabrillo.cc.ca.us/~crsmith/bering.html).

Cantacuzene
12-03-2002, 08:29 PM
I support the theory of Japanese/Chinese exploration of the west coast of the United States. They have found chinese anchors off the coast of washington state.

Native americans are definitly asiatic. The farther north the more asiatic. HEck, even the amazon tribes look a but asian.

The problems that this whole issue races in teh historical community has less to do with 'if' than 'how.'

The japanese ainu thing hinges on them island hoping with boats 25,000 years ago. Problem being is there is no evidence humans had navigation that early.

Its such a sticky issue, but the real losers are native americans. All they have is their heritage, and now its becoming more and more evident that they may not have been here first or that they may have come in different 'waves' of settlement.

Someone said that europeans come over from britain during the ice age, and that is completely unfounded. Humans were not even settled in Britain during the last ice age.

InfiniteNothing
12-03-2002, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by CornMonkey

to me, native americans look asian...if you go to alaska, the eskimos REALLY look asian. well, not really asian, but more siberian/mongolian. anyhoo...

infinite, are you saying that you've never heard of the bering strait migration? i think i can recall all the way back to junior high when i first heard about it... here's a link (http://www.cabrillo.cc.ca.us/~crsmith/bering.html).

No I heard of that theory and I agree that eskimos look asian. I kinda assumed there were people here already. I think that there was some interbreading too so that would explain some of the people in the south. I still don't think Indians look asian but I'll look again next time. I'm more curious about the "we all come from one african" theory. I hadn't heard it before.

Cantacuzene
12-03-2002, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by InfiniteNothing
I'm more curious about the "we all come from one african" theory. I hadn't heard it before.

They did a DNA thing and found out how many generations humanity goes back, and they traced it back tens of thousands of generations to one woman in africa. Not saying she was the first or only human around, but she was the only one whose offspring survived to continue propogating humanity.

ufcrusher
12-03-2002, 11:28 PM
Its called the African Eve theory. Basically, scientist have use mitochondrial DNA to show that we all descended from the same original female. More or less, unlike your regular DNA, mitochondrial DNA only comes from your maternal line. Therefore, you can follow the lines and they will all lead back to certain lines. They have done this with a large amount of people (I cant remember the exact number) and seem to have evidence that they say supports it.

What you have to realize is that they are taking into account minor variances as genetic drift and mutation.

sbp
12-04-2002, 12:53 AM
Heh coleslaw


Originally posted by CornMonkey

to me, native americans look asian...if you go to alaska, the eskimos REALLY look asian. well, not really asian, but more siberian/mongolian. anyhoo...Different tribes look quite dissimilar. Heard it may be explained by the various migrations over time. :hmm:

The "native Americans" won't like this discovery. Too bad the latecomers won't be able to bury the evidence this time.

welfareloser
12-04-2002, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by InfiniteNothing


How do you figure? Again.. refrence? Is this the current evolutionary theory?

any book written in the last five (maybe ten) years about the descent of humankind... and it was theorized long before that. recent advances in rt-pcr have made it possible to prove it (insofar as anything is proven.)

try "the seven daughters of eve," which is a great read for non-scientists, by the person who developed the technique of tracing mitochondrial dna lineage. i'm not going to go dig up any web references, and i won't reccommend any of the myriad technical books on the subject (which the average non-geneticist would find boring)... like i said, just pick up any book on the subject.