Religious Sect Announces First Cloned Human Baby . . . I hope they're full of it . .

[Butch]

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/27/health/27CND-CLON.html

Religious Sect Announces the First Cloned Baby
By DONALD G. McNEIL Jr.

A religious sect that contends that space travelers created the human race by cloning themselves declared today that the first cloned human had been born.

The announcement was made at a televised news conference in Hollywood, Fla., by Dr. Brigitte Boisselier, a chemist who directs a Bahamian company formed to clone humans and who is scientific director of the sect, the Raëlians.

"The baby is very healthy," Dr. Boisselier said. "She is fine, she's doing fine. The parents are happy. I hope that you remember them when you talk about this baby, not like a monster, like some results of something that is disgusting."

Dr. Boisselier offered no evidence to back up her claim, but said the results of independent genetic testing would be made public in a few days.

A spokeswoman for Dr. Boisselier, Nadine Gary, said the baby had been born by Caesarean section and was a clone of the woman who gave birth to her. Neither the mother, whom Dr. Boisselier identified as a 31-year-old American whose mate is infertile, nor the child, named Eve, was at the news conference.

Dr. Boisselier said four more cloned babies were due in the next few weeks, but she did not say where any of the cloning had taken place.

Robert Lanza, the chief of medical development at Advanced Cell Technology, who says his company cloned a human embryo but never implanted it, said in an interview on CNN that if Dr. Boisselier's claim is true, such a project would be "absolutely abhorrent, unsafe and ethically questionable." He said he also worried that a backlash arising from the Raëlians' announcement could hamper research into cloning intended to save lives.

R. Alta Charo, a bioethicist at the University of Wisconsin, said it would be "irresponsible medicine" to have conducted the type of cloning experiment described by Dr. Boisselier. "It's a truism in medicine that you don't begin working on humans until you have a basis in laboratory and medical science," she said on CNN.

Both experts raised the question that even if the child were born healthy, scientists have found that cloned animals often have congential problems that are not apparent until later. Inflicting such possible problems on children, they said, is unethical.

This year, three groups — a fertility clinic in Italy, an embryology laboratory business in Kentucky and the Raëlians — announced separately that they were on the verge of overseeing the births of cloned humans.

Animal-cloning experts said that it was theoretically possible for a human to be cloned but that any such effort would probably have had dozens of failures before a successful birth.

They said it should be relatively easy, using the same type of DNA tests that are used in court, to prove that a child is a duplicate of his or her mother. An independent test would be crucial to proving that the announcement was not a hoax, they said.

Raëlians are followers of Raël, a French-born former race-car driver who has said he met a four-foot space alien atop a volcano in southern France in 1973 and went aboard his ship, where he was entertained by voluptuous female robots and learned that the first humans were created 25,000 years ago by space travelers called Elohim, who cloned themselves.

Raëlians consider cloning an opportunity to meld religion and science and say they have 55,000 members. They have never named the scientists doing their work, where it is done or how it is paid for. In 1998, Dr. Boisselier announced that the group had signed up "about 100" clients who would have to pay $200,000 each to be cloned, and the group later said a couple who lost a 10-month-old child in 2000 had offered a large amount of money to resurrect their child's genes from saved tissue.

Dr. Boisselier, a former research chemist in France, has taught chemistry at Hamilton College in upstate New York.

Until Dolly the sheep was cloned in Scotland in 1997, many scientists assumed that cloning a mammal would be impossible, but mice, cats, goats, pigs and cows have been successfully cloned. Primates have not, but scientists argue that the techniques of human embryo manipulation have been refined in the dozens of in-vitro fertilization clinics, making it theoretically easier to clone a human than a monkey.

The typical success rate with animals is about 2 percent, said George Seidel, a researcher at Colorado State University who has cloned cattle, "so one would have to have at least 50 such operations."

Also, Dr. Seidel said, cloned animals have a high rate of unexplained defects, including malformed kidneys, hearts and lungs, and often die within days of birth. "Ten percent abnormalities might be acceptable for cloning cows," he said. "But it's completely unacceptable for human children."
______________________________________________________________________

Don't even know where to begin with this . . . first off, I'm still skeptical that they actually succeeded, so until there is independent DNA verification, I'll withold judgment . . . but I sure as hell hope they're full of it . . . while I'm usually for the unfettered advancement of science, I do believe that human cloning crosses a moral boundary . . .

[Nija]

Don't even know where to begin with this . . . first off, I'm still skeptical that they actually succeeded, so until there is independent DNA verification, I'll withold judgment . . . but I sure as hell hope they're full of it . . . while I'm usually for the unfettered advancement of science, I do believe that human cloning crosses a moral boundary . . .

I too will wait for independent verification, but I'm all for humand cloning.

[Nanotech9]

Elohim is one of the names of God (its either hebrew or greek, not sure.) That french race car driver was DEFINITELY full of it... and IT was probably alcohol.

[Hunny]

Science knows no boundaries...It was only a matter of time...if indeed its true...
I imagine many years ago, people said the same thing about other Scientific experiments/inventions/anything that spelled "something different"...
Personally, I find it almost bizarre when you mess with a human life as this..I see nothing good coming from it...I would think somewhere down the road it would become complicated or with complications...

[sbp]

http://www.lemonizer.com/uploads/attention.jpg

[kimchicowboy]

i think i heard that the raelian leader said that cloning is the first step to immortality (or is that in the article?), but how is that so? although you physically look the same, you don't necessarily have to be the same, right? :shrug:

[Butch]

Originally posted by kimchicowboy
i think i heard that the raelian leader said that cloning is the first step to immortality (or is that in the article?), but how is that so? although you physically look the same, you don't necessarily have to be the same, right? :shrug:

If I remember correctly, they hope it will lead towards immortality because they intend to clone an individual and then drop the brain from the dying body into the cloned - younger - body. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Hunny]

Originally posted by Butch


If I remember correctly, they hope it will lead towards immortality because they intend to clone an individual and then drop the brain from the dying body into the cloned - younger - body. Wash, rinse, repeat.


Well...I'm going to donate my brain to my friend :D then bonk him on the head with that mars candybar and see if he can feel the same thing I felt. :bonk::P

[Nija]

Link From MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.com/news/852027.asp)

I'm am totally fascinated by this. Honestly, the link is just a run down of what's happened, but it does included that the baby is "coming home" and that they should have the testing done fairly soon. oh the anticipation. :)

[latingirl]

Okay, for those of you who believe that God created man...

Would a cloned human have a soul?

And if not, what would the implications of this be??

Okay, my imagination is getting the best of me, but what comes to mind is that Stephen King movie where they bury thier recently dead family members in this ancient indian burial ground and they come back to life. And the dude that plays Herman Munster keeps saying "Dead is better". What's the name of that movie?? It gave me the creeps.

[Jeffbx]

Back in the days before surgery was an accepted practice, people denounced the doctors researching it as going against god. I don't see how cloning research today is any different than surgery research hundreds of years ago. Sure, they'll screw some things up while they're learning about it, but the potential medical advances make it more than worthwhile.

Oh, and latingirl - that was 'Pet Cemetary'.

[Butch]

Originally posted by Jeffbx
Back in the days before surgery was an accepted practice, people denounced the doctors researching it as going against god. I don't see how cloning research today is any different than surgery research hundreds of years ago. Sure, they'll screw some things up while they're learning about it, but the potential medical advances make it more than worthwhile.

Oh, and latingirl - that was 'Pet Cemetary'.

Jeff, in my opinion there is a very big difference between therapeutic cloning and reproductive cloning. I am all for therapeutic cloning . . . cloning stem cells, etc. . . . this could be invaluable for the medical advances they can reap, but I do not see the advances coming from reproductive cloning. The purpose of reproductive cloning is solely to create a human being genetically identical to another - unless they are going to do some sort of inhumane research on the cloned person, I don't see cloning advancing anything. I see it only as a result of advances already made.

[nickel]

i saw on TV that some lawyer in Florida is going ahead with proceedings to get the so-called cloned babe put with foster parents because of the obvious exploitation by these Clonaid people. He says social services should be involved.

[mojo]

Originally posted by Butch


If I remember correctly, they hope it will lead towards immortality because they intend to clone an individual and then drop the brain from the dying body into the cloned - younger - body. Wash, rinse, repeat. ok...i'm not gonna pretend to be an authority on this here...but last i checked, the cells of the clone are of the same age quality of the host. that is, if you're 30 and you clone your cells, the quality of those cells is the same as those you already possess. so you could clone a person and get an infant that is already aged at that level. so the lifespan, cell functions, and such would be in question.

one could argue that stuff could be frozen for future use, but cryonic processes still involve cell damage and i'm not so sure it would even work. so...i guess it makes one wonder what the shelf life of cells are and if you could have enough arm and hammer baking soda to keep your cells from smelling like 10 yr old meatloaf.

[Butch]

Originally posted by mojo
ok...i'm not gonna pretend to be an authority on this here...but last i checked, the cells of the clone are of the same age quality of the host. that is, if you're 30 and you clone your cells, the quality of those cells is the same as those you already possess. so you could clone a person and get an infant that is already aged at that level. so the lifespan, cell functions, and such would be in question.

one could argue that stuff could be frozen for future use, but cryonic processes still involve cell damage and i'm not so sure it would even work. so...i guess it makes one wonder what the shelf life of cells are and if you could have enough arm and hammer baking soda to keep your cells from smelling like 10 yr old meatloaf.

I'm not exactly an expert either, but I believe new cells are created and die constantly (well, except brain cells . . . they just die . . . which begs the question of why they think they can just plop an old brain into a new body) . . . cloning simply clones the genetic makeup of a cell, not the cell itself in whatever stage of its lifecycle it's in. It's like using a recipe to bake a new pie . . . mmmmmm pie . . . that is identical to one that has already been eaten.

[mojo]

Originally posted by Butch


I'm not exactly an expert either, but I believe new cells are created and die constantly (well, except brain cells . . . they just die . . . which begs the question of why they think they can just plop an old brain into a new body) . . . cloning simply clones the genetic makeup of a cell, not the cell itself in whatever stage of its lifecycle it's in. It's like using a recipe to bake a new pie . . . mmmmmm pie . . . that is identical to one that has already been eaten. actually it takes the stage of the cell as well.

from http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SU/dolly599.html


Roslin, SCOTLAND- (5/27/99)- When Dolly, the first mammal cloned from an adult cell, was born, many researchers wondered what the effects of starting life with 'old' cells might be. The scientists who cloned Dolly now report that the famous sheep's DNA might be showing its age.

Telomeres are segments of DNA found at the tip of each chromosome in nonbacterial cells. Replication of telomeres is regulated by a special enzyme called telomerase. As organisms age, the telomeres tend to shrink in size. Dolly was cloned from cells derived from the udder of a six-year old Finn Dorset ewe. The Scottish researchers who first cloned Dolly compared her telomeres with those of age-matched controls, and with the telomeres of two sheep clones, one of which was derived from embryo cells and the other of which was cloned from fetal fibroblasts The researchers used restriction enzymes to measure the mean sizes of terminal telomere fragments for all of the animals in the study.so they are concerned with the stage, as reported here
The telomeres derived from Dolly were the length that would be expected for the age of the original donor cell. Dolly, now two years and counting, was derived from six-year old parent cells. The telomeres from the clone derived from embryonic cells also appeared to reflect the age of the original cells, as well as their time in culture. The fetal fibroblasts used to clone the other animal had spent only a minimal time in culture.but the effects are unknown. so the concern is now how to curb this effect, or if there is any to worry about, as seen here
The researchers don't know whether or not the telomere changes reflect changes in the physiological ages of the animals. It may be that the effect on telomeres may have no effect on the longevity of cloned animals. Veterinary examinations indicate the animals are happy and healthy. Dolly herself has produced two litters of lambs. Other researchers have cloned mice from mice clones and report no apparent effects on longevity in those animals.but since this is still a relatively new study, i'm pretty interested to see what happens next.

[Hunny]

Originally posted by Butch


I'm not exactly an expert either, but I believe new cells are created and die constantly (well, except brain cells . . . they just die . . . which begs the question of why they think they can just plop an old brain into a new body) . . . cloning simply clones the genetic makeup of a cell, not the cell itself in whatever stage of its lifecycle it's in. It's like using a recipe to bake a new pie . . . mmmmmm pie . . . that is identical to one that has already been eaten.

omg..I think Butch is my clone....he's doing the (....) :P
Sorry... I had to :rolleyes:

...and what about that "soul" like latingirl asked about...:angel:

[InfiniteNothing]

Some people believe that you aren't born with a soul and that you have to earn it. Otherwise, when do you exactly get your soul? When your born? When the sperm meets the egg? I guess this depends on where the soul comes from. Does the soul follow the brain? If not how does your soul travel? If not, if there is a brain transplant does your soul die? Lots of neat stuff to think about.

[ArkiStan]

Rael...
It's sort of hard to tell from his appearance whether he's a serious scientist or not...But you gotta LOVE this guy!!
Here are some high res picks for your desktop!!

http://www.in.gr/innews/clones/images/Rael.jpg

http://www.rael.org/int/press_site/full_screen_photo/rael4.jpg (high res)

http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~wilkins/writing/Assign/topics/Cloning/rael-ufo.jpg

http://www.rael.org/int/press_site/hight_resolutions_photo/ufo.rael.jpg (high res)

[Jeffbx]

Originally posted by Hunny

...and what about that "soul" like latingirl asked about...

Compare it to identical twins. They are genetically identical & both have souls, right? So think of a clone as an identical twin born some time later... it's still a person, so why would they not have a soul?

[Nija]

as far as i'm concerned, everything has energy inside of it, it's what makes everything. unless a clone is not something, it has this energy.

:)

[Grimm]

Originally posted by latingirl
Okay, for those of you who believe that God created man...

Would a cloned human have a soul?

As the Christian faith is derived from the Hebrew faith, and the Hebrew faith (from what I understand) says that a child gets a soul when it is born, then, when the cloned child is born, it should get a soul. After all, twins get souls, and they are esentialy copies.
If you want to argue that a clone would not receive a soul because it was not naturaly conceved, what about babies conveved via artificial insemination, or via in vitro? No anti-christ yet... they have souls.

Yes, a human being has already been cloned, and she had a soul. At least according to the Bible anyway. Eve was created from part of Adam, she is in effect a geneticaly altered clone. Soul included.
That is, if you want to believe the Bible anyway...

As for the cultists creating a clone? I doubt it, not saying it is not possible, but a scientist would not have made the announcement until it was verified by a genetic test and was able to provide the evidence at the announcement. Not a competent scientist any way. I think it is unconcionable for them to clone a human anyway. They need to work out the ethics and legal problems before making copies of people.

[Butch]

Who'd have guessed . . . they're not going to allow genetic testing . . .

http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/01/03/clone.claims/index.html

Rael: No DNA test for baby Eve
Sect leader vows to guard identity of alleged human clone
Friday, January 3, 2003 Posted: 11:05 AM EST (1605 GMT)

SHERBROOKE, Quebec (CNN) -- A company founded by members of a sect that believes mankind was created by extraterrestrials says what it calls the first human clone will not undergo testing to verify her genetic makeup.

The head of the Raelian movement, who calls himself "Rael," said Thursday that he has told Clonaid's leader not to perform DNA tests on the infant girl, nicknamed "Eve."

Appearing on CNN's "Crossfire," Rael said he had spoken with Clonaid CEO Brigitte Boisselier and told her, "If there is any risk that this baby is taken away from the family, it is better to lose your credibility; don't do the testing."

He added: "I think she agrees with me."

Boisselier, a bishop in the Raelians, has claimed that a second cloned baby is expected to be born in Europe before Sunday, but she declined to name the country.

Clonaid had previously said Eve was to undergo DNA testing this week. Such a test would prove or disprove the company's claim that Eve is a genetic duplicate of her mother. Clonaid did not return calls seeking comment late Thursday.

Rael said he made the decision after a "judge in Florida signed a paper saying that the baby Eve should be taken from the family, from her mother."

However, no Florida judge has made such a ruling. A hearing date has been set in Broward County Circuit Court for January 22 on a lawsuit filed by attorney Bernard Siegel, who wants a legal guardian appointed for the baby girl.

If the child's mother does not appear for the hearing, the court could conceivably order that the baby be taken away. The court could also delay any decision or rule that it doesn't have jurisdiction over the case.

Clonaid, the company founded by members of the Raelian movement, had announced that the baby was born outside the United States on December 26, and said she would be brought to the United States on Monday. However, it is not known if that ever took place.

The baby's whereabouts have not been revealed, nor has the birth been independently confirmed. Clonaid has said Eve was born to a 31-year-old American woman.

'A rogue organization'
Siegel said Rael's comments seemed to indicate the Raelians think "that they don't have to answer to the law, which says to me that this is a rogue organization."

"I want the whereabouts of this alleged child to be made public," he said.

Noting that there has been no ruling yet, Siegel said, "I guess [Rael is] a better space alien than he is a lawyer. If my lawsuit has in fact called their bluff, then so be it."

Rael, former French journalist Claude Vorilhon, contends human life resulted from extraterrestrial genetic engineering and argues that cloning is the key to eternal life.

Will the public get a chance to see the baby soon?

"I don't think so," Rael said in the "Crossfire" interview.

At another point, he was asked if his group had simply gotten away with a great publicity stunt. Rael, speaking from Canada via satellite, said his earpiece was having technical difficulties.

"I am so sorry, but the sound is so bad. I cannot hear anything," he said.

He also said his Raelian movement is "completely separate" from Clonaid.
_________________________________________________________________

Love that last part where he does the old "I can't hear you, you're breaking up" routine when there is a question he doesn't want to answer . . .

[Nija]

ok.
IF the child is a clone, it should NOT be removed from the mother by law.
IF the child isn't a clone, it still shouldn't be removed from the parents'.
There are more humans on this world that are WWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more fvcked up than any one in this organization, and they are allowed to have childern, why don't they petition for THEM to be removed? because they don't care.

What, there hasn't been something to sensationalize in a week, let's do something that will last us up until the Iraqi war...