If you are Christian...

[Ladogaboy]

why do you still have "things"?

Well?

I'm kind of curious about this, because I would think that a true follower of Christ would have given up their material possessions in order to better help humanity.

[Sir_Froggy]

gotta keep yourself alive

[Jenny]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
why do you still have "things"?

Well?

I'm kind of curious about this, because I would think that a true follower of Christ would have given up their material possessions in order to better help humanity.


Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

I don't believe God asks us to give up all our material possessions. I do believe that, being a true follower of Christ, if God ASKED me to, I would. He asked Job to do that and Job did. As far as I know, though, He said to give yourself to Him and to give 10% of your income in tithing.

[xsiled2]

/me is agreeing with jenny for the first time.

[Jenny]

Originally posted by xsiled2
/me is agreeing with jenny for the first time.


hahaha :D

[johnnymk]

I don't want to act like a know-it-all, but the things that happened to Job was a result of a deal that Satan and God struck. Job's loss of everything that he had was involuntary. However, God knew beforehand that Job's attitude would prevail, and God blessed him doubly afterwards.
I also want to add that tithing is not mandatory in the New Testament. In the Old Testament it was necessary to fund the spititual leaders, who had no source of income. I believe it was the Levites. It only applied to the Jews and their tribes. It had blessings associated with obedience to the practice as well as curses if disobedient.
Although it is not mandatory today, it is mentioned in the New Testament and I believe that there are blessings associated with it. I decided several years ago to tithe. It appears that I have been blessed because of it.
As to "things", the Bible does mention that the possession of lots of goodies can ensnare you. Although you may own them, they will end up owning you. He also does not say that you can not own things. God does not mind that we enjoy the many avenues that he or mankind has created/invented. He really wants Christians to keep their entire Lives in perspective.
Cults have developed in the past by people who take certain scriptures out of context, exaggerate them, and then create religions revolving around them, believing that what is contained in them is more important than a relationship with God .

[oblongmelon]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
why do you still have "things"?

Well?

I'm kind of curious about this, because I would think that a true follower of Christ would have given up their material possessions in order to better help humanity.

How is GIVING UP "things" going to better humanity? Do you really think you giving up your brand new pair of sneakers is going to feed 3rd world nations and their starving masses? Perhaps you think it will house the homeless, clothe the poor?..instead of GIVING UP..why don't people GIVE? You know, EDUCATE people so they can get out of their ruts, donate time, energy and resources to help build homes for the poor, Be hands on, help where help is needed..and be generous..BE NEIGHBORLY..and for crying out loud-don't stick your hand out for repayment for doing so..The lord provides-and everything eventually will come back to you tenfold..but I can hardly see in this day and age, impoverishing yourself is going to help your cause.
I agree that some people LIVE FAR over their means (*coughbillandmelindagatescough*) but those people have also taken their resources and put them to good use. If the lord provides you with brains, and common sense, and you use those talents to create a better life for yourself and others-who is to say that they are not a true follower of Christ? Far be it from me lay judgement on others when I thank God everyday for everything I am fortunate to have..but if it wasn't for faith, and the grace of God getting us through very hard times when the kids were very small, who knows where we would be right now. For these things I am truly greatful.

[kimchicowboy]

because i have been blessed to have such things. i will admit that i've probably bought many frivolous items in the past and that's because i'm pretty stupid too. but i still do my tithing and would give more than 10% if i could. a pastor that i know of wishes to be blessed enough to tithe 90% and live off of 10%. that's cool for him if he chooses to do so. if you feel called to give them up (as in the early church when believers sold of their possessions for the benefit of others), then go ahead and do so. :)

[Ladogaboy]

I wasn't talking about god. And I wasn't talking about the Bible. I was talking about Jesus. If you are Christian, then you are supposed to be a "follower of Christ", meaning, do like Christ did.

I think that pretty much everyone here avoided my question, with the exception of johnnymk. Possessions end up owning you and impeding your ability to help others.

oblongmelon, though I like the way you were able to turn the question back on me, I don't think that the reasons why giving up "stuff" would better allow you to help others is that hard to fathom. The reasons for "giving up" as opposed to just "giving" is that it is better to dispel a curse than to pass it on. You talk about donating time, energy and resources. Every minute you waste using/maintaining these "things" takes away from those altruistic methods you could be employing.

[sbp]

Who is saying folks are not helping out unfortunate others already? And half the time its not appreciated especially when its coerced. :disa:

Better to give a hand up than foster the dependence of a hand out all the time.

One big problem the welfare state fostered was this expectation of being owed this and that and there was an endless supply of moola and benefits. Thats nice for those getting the goodies, but what about those who provide for the goodies? Sheesh

There are those who work their butts off and give, while others sit on their fat asses doing little to help others let alone themselves. And then to top it off the contributors are told they are not giving enough and are selfish. http://home.earthlink.net/~sbp777/pics/bleh.gif

There will always be those who scam others and the system. Meanwhile there are those too proud to ask for assistance.

[oblongmelon]

I'm not talking about those who are perpetual Till dippers,I am talking about giving to those who in return will turn around and give to others..And since being Christ like to me means sharing whatever I have to offer to those who don't, just as Jesus Christ himself gave himself to all of us to share in his words,and ACTIONS. I also, like I said before, believe that if you give, you will recieve back tenfold, therefore I am ETERNALLY thankful for everything I have. Because I KNOW that I make a conscious effort to do what I can to help people out for THEIR benefit-not my own.

Now if you are talking about corporate glutons collecting money for say..the widows and childrens fund from 911, in good faith, yet turning that good faith into nothing more than a money making scheme for themselves,then that is just dishonest.

[WhiskeyPapa]

Good question, Lagodaboy. I'll give you my layman's opinion...

Yes, we are called to be "Christ-like". The word "Christian" literally means "Little Christ".

Christ lived on earth poor (he owned nothing) and homely (Isaiah 53:2 says "He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.")

This was not so that all Christians would be poor and ugly. It was because all his accomplishments MUST be attributed to God. It was so no one would be able to say "He can do that because he's rich and good looking!"

The apostle Paul (who wrote much of the New Testament) gave us a very good outline on what it means to be a follower of Christ. He never said we should give up all possessions. However, he did say "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

There are over 800 verses in the Bible dealing with money. Here are just a few "bullet points" about God and money:

1. God owns everything.
2. All we have comes from God.
3. God expects us to be good stewards of what he as provided.
4. God is a giver (he gave his Son to die for us.)
5. God expects us to give.
6. Giving changes us and makes us a better person.
7. You can't out-give God.
8. "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

So, to answer your question - we are not called to live "exactly" as Christ lived while on earth. After all, living on earth as a poor ugly dude was only His part-time job, the rest of the time He is the King of Kings! :)

[attgig]

ARRRRG. I had a whole post explaining...but it got erased....stupid links in outlook.

anyways...
to sum what I HAD written....
don't judge a person by what he has.
if you want or don't want stuff - that should be based on personal conviction.
You should NOT love your stuff that you can't share with those around you in need.
Always know that God can give and take away. You having or not having stuff shouldn't affect your view of God or His love for you and his Grace that he gives to you. If it does, then...hmmm - you got problems.

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by kb0wwp
Christ lived on earth poor (he owned nothing) and homely (Isaiah 53:2 says "He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.")

This was not so that all Christians would be poor and ugly. It was because all his accomplishments MUST be attributed to God. It was so no one would be able to say "He can do that because he's rich and good looking!"

Ummm, I'm sorry, I find this wrong in so many ways. I am poor and ugly too. I don't want all of my accomplishments chalked up to being an act of god. There are other virtues besides money and looks, and many of those have much more bearing on how much one accomplishes in life. Anyway, I'll leave that alone.

I just wanted to thank you all for your responses. You've answered my question better than any of you will probably ever realize. :(

[WhiskeyPapa]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
You've answered my question better than any of you will probably ever realize. :( You gotta tell us what that means!?!

Anyway, I think you're looking at Jesus like he was just some sort of teacher. Yes, he did teach a few things while he was here on earth, but what he taught mainly reinforced or clarified what had already been taught by Moses and the prophets.

Instead, Jesus came to be the once-for-all sacrifice. His death on the cross is what makes it possible for us to have a right relationship with God, the be reconciled to Him.

Christians don't "follow" Jesus like a person of another faith might follow their "leader" or founder. It is our faith in Christ's death and ressurection that defines us, not trying to emulate his lifestyle.

Thanks for asking the question. It helps me to think about these things - to make sure I'm on the right track, too!

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by kb0wwp
You gotta tell us what that means!?!


Let me just say that you--et al.--in affirming your faith have shattered mine.

[cheapie]

:) the people that i thought would respond to this message header did.

as a christian, i give 10% of my money to the church, and then we give to different organizations. i honestly believe that God has blessed me incredibly because of it. i have a very nice job, great income, and don't really always deserve either. as far as "things", well, i guess i believe that God gave them to me, and he can take them away. the Bible doesn't say money is the root of all evil, it says the PURSUIT of money is the root of all evil.

[Jenny]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy


Let me just say that you--et al.--in affirming your faith have shattered mine.

Ouch... :( I'm sure not glad I responded now. :(

[x1337xD335C1P13x]

Originally posted by johnnymk
I don't want to act like a know-it-all, but the things that happened to Job was a result of a deal that Satan and God struck. Job's loss of everything that he had was involuntary. However, God knew beforehand that Job's attitude would prevail, and God blessed him doubly afterwards.
I also want to add that tithing is not mandatory in the New Testament. In the Old Testament it was necessary to fund the spititual leaders, who had no source of income. I believe it was the Levites. It only applied to the Jews and their tribes. It had blessings associated with obedience to the practice as well as curses if disobedient.
Although it is not mandatory today, it is mentioned in the New Testament and I believe that there are blessings associated with it. I decided several years ago to tithe. It appears that I have been blessed because of it.
As to "things", the Bible does mention that the possession of lots of goodies can ensnare you. Although you may own them, they will end up owning you. He also does not say that you can not own things. God does not mind that we enjoy the many avenues that he or mankind has created/invented. He really wants Christians to keep their entire Lives in perspective.
Cults have developed in the past by people who take certain scriptures out of context, exaggerate them, and then create religions revolving around them, believing that what is contained in them is more important than a relationship with God .


He has a good point...

[latingirl]

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
I wasn't talking about god. And I wasn't talking about the Bible. I was talking about Jesus. If you are Christian, then you are supposed to be a "follower of Christ", meaning, do like Christ did.


Actually, when you talk about Jesus or being a Christian...from a Christian's perspective, you are in fact talking about God and talking about the bible. And yes, Christ is our example. But I actually don't believe Christ was necessarily poor. Based on the Gospels, (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) I believe Christ certainly had his needs met. He was fed, he went to festive occasions and dinners/gatherings, he paid his taxes. I believe the fact that He had no earthly "possessions", that He hung with "undesirable" people, and did not have a desireable appearance was to show that God does not esteem people or possessions the way the rest of the world does. Jesus was indeed rich, but rich in love, peace, wisdom and in His relationship with His Father (God).

Jesus also had common sense and was practical. He knew that we need material things to live in this world, be we are to own these things, they are not to own us. God wants to be the only one to own our hearts.

I believe that God wants us to give up those things that own us. But not to the point of poverty. I believe that we are to give, but give out of our abundance. If we see someone in need or a worthy cause, we are to meet it if we can. Or sometimes God lays it on our hearts to make sacrifices. But not become another person in need. He came to meet our need, not make us needy.

Ladogaboy, I don't believe anyone is going to give you the answer you are looking for except God Himself. I always tell people that if you are really, wholeheartedly searching for truth and are willing to surrender to it then just ask Him. Ask Jesus if He is real. Ask Him to show you in a way that you can understand. I mean, you might feel silly, but it wouldn't hurt to just ask.

I truly believe that He is real and that He WILL answer your prayer. I have seen people amazingly have thier eyes opened from one day to the next to the point that I got jealous that God didn't deal with me the same way. People that told me I was a fool to my face for being a "Jesus Freak".

What do you have to lose?

[jonEwantsM3]

Ladogaboy...
The American Church has watered down Christianity to be some kind of easy thing to be a part of and there are so many Christians who are just half dedicated to living all out for Jesus. It is so concerned about being inclusive about everybody else's belief and everybody elses view towards Christians, but was Jesus like that? NO WAY! He was always offending people by telling the truth straight out, he wouldn't beat around the bush, and that's why the Pharisees whated him dead. They didn't want to hear about them doing wrong things and that they were sinners and would go to Hell if they didn't change their ways. That's also why there is so many people who claim to be Christians but they do things that dont glorify Jesus, because they have been brought up in churches which preach watered-down Christianity, and it gives people a chance to call us Christians hypocrites.

I think it's way easier to be a Christian in 3rd world countries, b/c in America, we have religious freedom, so when times get bad or when ppl laugh at us for being Christian, we kinda just lay low and are kinda ashamed for being Christian. That's being a moderate half-way Christian. While in some 3rd world countries, especially those muslim or hindu ones, if you claimed to be Christian, they would kill you. Now why would u claim to be Christian unless you for sure KNEW that Jesus was the only way? Now that is true Christianity, b/c why would u die for something you were half dedicated to?

And its really a sad thing to say, but Christianity really isnt an easy thing to accept, and it's not meant for everybody. Only those who are willing to deny themselves of their own desires (putting God's interests first), take up the cross daily (be ready to be persecuted or ridiculed for being a Christian), and to follow Jesus daily could truely call themselves a Christian and a follower of Jesus (LUke 9:23) And seriously, a true Christian, many people will look at them as losers and they will be loners, only because Christianity is an offensive belief. And people will ridicule them for being a Jesus follower.

And Ladogaboy, God blesses us with material possessions. But when called to give up things we must put God's demands first before ours no matter how much we disagree with it and don't want to. That's "denying ourselves" and putting Jesus first. And surely there are rich Chrsitians (like Job) who God has blessed greatly because of their faith.

How come it's shattered your faith?

And not to sound like some jerk Ladogaboy, but its true that Christianity is a thin striaght path to travel on and its friggin hard. Maybe Chrsitianity isn't for you, and I sound like a jerk for saying it, but Christianity isnt for everybody, but only those who are strong in heart and are willing to die for Christ can be part of it.

[latingirl]

I wholeheartedly agree with you jon, the only thing that I would add is that at the same time God is full of grace. And if we truly desire to follow the Lord, He gives us the strength and grace to do it. He doesn't just leave us alone to suffer, but shows us that we can be wealthy beyond measure in peace, wisdom and in His presence. He actually participates in our lives.

It is Gods Will that ALL should come to repentance (or be reconciled with God) and that NONE should perish - 2 Peter 3:9. I personally believe that perish also means our lives here on Earth without the peace that surpasses understanding or other things that Jesus promised us.

But WE reject Him by telling Him that we would rather have material things, live unseemly and/or perverted lifestyles, be greedy, and esteem the world's values over His own. He came to give us abundant life and we would rather do what everyone else is doing even though its obvious that society is deteriorating day by day because of apathy, greed, narcissism and lasciviousness, not to mention elitism, racism and just plain evil. We are either decieved to believe or deceived not to care that the choices we make as individuals effect the people around us and ultimately society as a whole.


For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you a hope and a future. Jeremiah 29:11

[brainsmile]

Originally posted by Jenny

As far as I know, though, He said to give yourself to Him and to give 10% of your income in tithing.

Correction: according to the old jewish laws it was not 10% but rather that 10% was given but twice a year so it actually came out to be 20%. Furthermore, every third year you had to give an extra 10%.

Without thinking about compounding it averages out to be 23% a year.

:eek:

[latingirl]

Originally posted by brainsmile


Correction: according to the old jewish laws it was not 10% but rather that 10% was given but twice a year so it actually came out to be 20%. Furthermore, every third year you had to give an extra 10%.

Without thinking about compounding it averages out to be 23% a year.

:eek:

I thought it was merely 10% of your increase.

Scripture ref on the extra 10%, I never heard that.

[brainsmile]

I can ask my pastor if you'd like... he went over it in sunday's sermon a month or so ago.

[jonEwantsM3]

I'm sure its not even the percentage that matters...

we just got to make sure to give whole heartedly and with thanks.

[elf]

<yawn>
Each person is given gifts (no I don't mean a free PS2...) to help others according to his ability...
</yawn>

[brainsmile]

Originally posted by jonEwantsM3
I'm sure its not even the percentage that matters...

we just got to make sure to give whole heartedly and with thanks.

agrees... keep in mind I was talking about old testament laws which don't apply to us in the same way as it did to them.

[jonEwantsM3]

true true :D

[jonEwantsM3]

i still dont see how we shattered ladogaboy's faith :(

[latingirl]

Originally posted by jonEwantsM3
i still dont see how we shattered ladogaboy's faith :(

I could be wrong but...from what I remember from past "religious" conversations, I thought he was a Buddhist.

So I was assuming that maybe he was just searching and trying to make sense of it all.