What would you do if you were drafted? [Archive] - HP Deals, Computer Coupons And Bargains

oblongmelon

12-29-2002, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by JackHammer
I would join up and fight. I too am against the many conflicts the Bush administration has gotten the US into but there are laws and they must be followed. If laws are unjust you don't break them, you have them changed through the proper channels. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH! for the love of God, do you REALLY think that Bush has caused ALL of these conflicts? Please, stop sounding like a brain washed Democrat and wake up and smell the roses. BUSH is the only one in the last eight/nine years who has the balls to go after these sons of b|tches and put an end to all their bully/scare tactics..(waaaaaaaah..kiss our ass or we will take our oil away and then bomb the hell out of your entire country with our nuclear weapons that we claim we don't have..wahhhhhhh)..Had Clinton taken out Bin Laden in '93 like he should of, 911 probably would never have happened, and other countries wouldnt think they were so superior to us and think they can topple us with their threats of war. Look at Jimmy Carter-he couldn't even pull off the rescue of the 60 american hostage held by Iranian Militants for an entire year-why do you think he didn't get re elected-he should have went in and bombed the crap outta Iran,took back our citizens and thumbed his nose at the big black hole he shoulda left for a country. And while I agree that the US does NOT need to be the world's policeman, People need to learn that we ARE one of the strongest nations, and it's about damn time others stopped screwing with us.

JackHammer

12-29-2002, 07:41 AM

Bush's answer to everything is war war war. If the US don't like other sovereing nation's policies, their response is a bombing campaign or the threat of one. We have no rights to tell countries like North Korea they can't have nuclear weapons.

gwilks98

12-29-2002, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by JackHammer
Bush's answer to everything is war war war.

Sounds good to me. I've seen enough movies to know American Special Forces are both invulnerable and extremely cool. If that doesn't work, we could always hire these guys for mercenaries. (http://realultimatepower.net)

xsiled2

12-29-2002, 08:06 AM

Testimonial:

Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads ALL the time and don't even think twice about it. These guys are so crazy and awesome that they flip out ALL the time. I heard that there was this ninja who was eating at a diner. And when some dude dropped a spoon the ninja killed the whole town. My friend Mark said that he saw a ninja totally uppercut some kid just because the kid opened a window.

TERRIBLETOM

12-29-2002, 08:25 AM

At my place of employment there is a manager that debated running off to Canada during the Vietnam war to avoid the draft, he had told me this story when he was drunk at one of our company Christmas parties, he was never drafted. Any level headed person would agree that war is a terrible thing, but even today I don't respect this man because of this story he told me. We as a nation have just buried our 17th military man over sea's in Afghanistan this past weekend, do not soil what he stood up for, which is basically your freedom!

gwilks98

12-29-2002, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by xsiled2
Testimonial:

Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads ALL the time and don't even think twice about it. These guys are so crazy and awesome that they flip out ALL the time. I heard that there was this ninja who was eating at a diner. And when some dude dropped a spoon the ninja killed the whole town. My friend Mark said that he saw a ninja totally uppercut some kid just because the kid opened a window.

:heh: God Bless that website. Check out the movie scripts. :D

sbp

12-29-2002, 10:19 AM

I'd go serve my country. I don't want my nieces and nephew growing up in a world where terrorists are allowed to kill with impunity cause spineless jellyfish are hiding in the corner with their green stained knees a-knocking, who think getting on their knees to blow the thugs will bring peace.

nickel

12-29-2002, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by sbp
I'd go serve my country. I don't want my nieces and nephew growing up in a world where terrorists are allowed to kill with impunity cause spineless jellyfish are hiding in the corner with their green stained knees a-knocking, who think getting on their knees to blow the thugs will bring peace.

Word

kimchicowboy

12-29-2002, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by JackHammer
We have no rights to tell countries like North Korea they can't have nuclear weapons.
if you know what kim jong-il is like, you wouldn't want him with nukes. noone really knows what he is like since he's so reclusive, but seeing his past contradictory behavior, you don't want some maniacal dictator-who-thinks-he's-god with such things.

and i always joke around with my ROTC roommates that i'd flee to canada and meet some hot scandinavian-canadian girl and marry her if there were a draft, but in reality, i'd probably stick around.

eSDee

12-29-2002, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by oblongmelon
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH! for the love of God, do you REALLY think that Bush has caused ALL of these conflicts? Please, stop sounding like a brain washed Democrat and wake up and smell the roses. BUSH is the only one in the last eight/nine years who has the balls to go after these sons of b|tches and put an end to all their bully/scare tactics..(waaaaaaaah..kiss our ass or we will take our oil away and then bomb the hell out of your entire country with our nuclear weapons that we claim we don't have..wahhhhhhh)..Had Clinton taken out Bin Laden in '93 like he should of, 911 probably would never have happened, and other countries wouldnt think they were so superior to us and think they can topple us with their threats of war. Look at Jimmy Carter-he couldn't even pull off the rescue of the 60 american hostage held by Iranian Militants for an entire year-why do you think he didn't get re elected-he should have went in and bombed the crap outta Iran,took back our citizens and thumbed his nose at the big black hole he shoulda left for a country. And while I agree that the US does NOT need to be the world's policeman, People need to learn that we ARE one of the strongest nations, and it's about damn time others stopped screwing with us.

Now obby, you sound like a brainwashed Republican :heh:

I gotta agree with what many of you said. Even though you may not believe in everything that the current administration is selling, I believe that you gotta do your part as an American citizen, and go defend the freedoms of the love ones back here in the States.

xsiled2

12-29-2002, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by eSDeeLoco

Now obby, you sound like a brainwashed Republican :heh:

no such thing, the republican party isnt based on deception.

no on same thing.

Ladogaboy

12-29-2002, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by xsiled2

no such thing, the republican party isnt based no deception.

:spock: Indeed.

TERRIBLETOM

12-29-2002, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by xsiled2

no such thing, the republican party isnt based on deception. Well said...:thumbup:

eSDee

12-29-2002, 12:27 PM

Oh boy you guys ARE brainwashed :rolleyes:

ZrEo0

12-29-2002, 01:02 PM

hopefully my CS pratice will work:P

mojo

12-29-2002, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by oblongmelon
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH! for the love of God, do you REALLY think that Bush has caused ALL of these conflicts?you kidding? some of these folks think that bush caused them to fail their physics exams.

Ladogaboy

12-29-2002, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by oblongmelon
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH! for the love of God, do you REALLY think that Bush has caused ALL of these conflicts?

As was already informed, the Government of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea has made a decision to release the freeze of the nuclear facilities that the DPRK [North Korea] had frozen under the DPRK-USA Agreed Framework premised on annual delivery of 500,000 metric tons of HFO [heavy fuel oil], and immediately resume the operation and construction of the nuclear facilities needed for generating electricity as a countermeasure to the substantial breakdown of the Agreed Framework by the U.S. with the halt of the HFO delivery, followed by its designation of the DPRK as the "axis of evil" and the target for the nuclear preemptive strike.

Link. (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-text28dec28.story)

JackHammer

12-29-2002, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by mojo
you kidding? some of these folks think that bush caused them to fail their physics exams.

I know he did...well atleast he had a hand in trying to cause me to fail physics but I prevailed. THis goes for not just freshman physics but also Modern Physics and Thermodynamics as well.

Ladogaboy

12-29-2002, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by JackHammer

I know he did...well atleast he had a hand in trying to cause me to fail physics but I prevailed. THis goes for not just freshman physics but also Modern Physics and Thermodynamics as well.

Count yourself lucky that you didn't take Light and Electromagnetism. He would have really got you then. :(

sbp

12-29-2002, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
Link. (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-text28dec28.story) Its Bushs fault that North Korea violated for years the 1994 Agreement made with the Clinton Administration and Jimmy Carter not to build nuclear weapons. :rolleyes:

JackHammer

12-29-2002, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by Ladogaboy

Count yourself lucky that you didn't take Light and Electromagnetism. He would have really got you then. :(

Is that an EE class? I majored in ME. I wouldn't touch EE with a 10-ft pole.

GOing back to the topic, seriously I do not think we have any right telling other coutries what they can do or can't do. We can sanction them by not trading with them and even carry out clandastine operations against them. We however, have no rights to openly threaten to declare war on a country because that country is developing nuclear weapons. Yeah it's pretty frightening that N Korea is on the verge of building nuclear weapons but don't we also have nuclear weapons? So it's ok for us to have them but not ok for N. Korea?

Hunny

12-29-2002, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by oblongmelon
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH! for the love of God, do you REALLY think that Bush has caused ALL of these conflicts?.......

Oh my god Oblong...I actually stood up and saluted you while the national anthem played behind me ~bravo~ ...here...have some water to clench your thirst...

If I were a man...but I'm not..I'm that.......
" hot scandinavian-canadian girl" that whats~his~face is going to marry ............ :tongue:

Coming from a family of service orientated people...I'd stay and do my tour of duty..as I expect my son would do the same...though, in all honesty, I have to say would scare me more...
To lighten this up for a minute, he does paintball tournys, and he comes home with welts all over him from being shot...I told him the last time, that it was a good thing it wasn't a real war, he'd lose his legs for sure...not to mention other parts of his body...

:)

__________________

xsiled2

12-29-2002, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by JackHammer
We however, have no rights to openly threaten to declare war on a country because that country is developing nuclear weapons.

shall the first of their bombs towards the US land on you.

Ladogaboy

12-29-2002, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by sbp
Its Bushs fault that North Korea violated for years the 1994 Agreement made with the Clinton Administration and Jimmy Carter not to build nuclear weapons. :rolleyes:

It's Bush's fault for opening his big, fat mouth and taking a hard line with a nation that was actually acquiescing to U.S./World requests.

Originally posted by JackHammer
Is that an EE class? I majored in ME. I wouldn't touch EE with a 10-ft pole.

It was actually just a Physics class. I assume you are talking about Mechanical Engineering vs Electrical.

Originally posted by xsiled2
shall the first of their bombs towards the US land on you.

May the first U.S. nuke that accidentally detonates...
:rolleyes:

Ladogaboy

12-29-2002, 05:15 PM

Another thought:

Would the women who responded have answered the same way if there were even a remote chance of them actually being drafted?

Nanotech9

12-29-2002, 05:22 PM

i got bad feet...

K2, how's that song go? O canada, O canada? hehe...

seriously though, i'de probably join the airforce just because i'm a weakling and my mental power would be of better use than my physical power.

oblongmelon

12-29-2002, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
Another thought:

Would the women who responded have answered the same way if there were even a remote chance of them actually being drafted?

YES. And I say that WITHOUT any hesitation at all.

Hoser

12-29-2002, 06:29 PM

Since I already gave 20 years to our military (Air Force), the draft wouldn't affect me. If I had been around during Vietnam, I would've probably went to fight the war. It's hard to say what any of us would do since it's been thirty years since the draft.

Here's a site that shows what numbers were picked for the four draft lotteries (Dec 1969, July 1970, August 1971, February 1972).

http://www.sss.gov/lotter1.htm

Here's who would've been drafted:
Dec 1969 - Men born between 1944 and 1950 with a number of 195 or less.
July 1970 - Men born in 1951 with a number of 125 or less.
August 1971 - Men born in 1952 with a number of 95 or less.
February 1972 - Men born in 1953, but no draft orders were issued after 1972.

It's interesting to find out whether you would've been drafted if you'd been of age at that time. My draft numbers for the 1970 and 1971 draft were lower than the number picked. So if I were born in 1951 or 1952, I would've been packing up and spending some time in Vietnam.

Hunny

12-29-2002, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by Hoser
Since I've already gave 20 years to our military

Thank you...I found all of that to be very interesting...

Hunny

12-29-2002, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
Another thought:

Would the women who responded have answered the same way if there were even a remote chance of them actually being drafted?

As a good friend would have answered to a yes question...
You bet.....I did answer the question as if it were me ... I'd be afraid, but yes..and I wouldn't be singing that "Oh canada" song :P
though I do have relatives in Canada..

gear02

12-29-2002, 07:41 PM

I think I would go if I were drafted. I mean I was one of the few 18 year olds to register. I'm betting, though, that I won't be called to actually fight since I'm not even close to being in shape and there are many others who are already trained. i figure there would be a lot of deaths before they hand me a gun and send me to the front.

But, yes I would go. Better to be dead than to feel like a coward all your life.

oblongmelon

12-29-2002, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Yossarian
i think obby's more of a man than some of us here :eek:

Yoss, if being drafted means that my children, and their children and their children after them will continue to live free-then YES. I would go in the blink of an eye-because I'm a mother. And that's what mothers do for their kids. Plus-I'm a damn good shot. ;)

Hoser

12-29-2002, 09:10 PM

The way the military was portrayed in Starship Troopers was unique. Only citizens are allowed to vote. You become a citizen by doing Federal Service for the Federation. It's also easier to get a license to be a mother if you've served.

For an interesting read, check this out: http://www.1stcavmedic.com/draft.htm

It's about how Bill Clinton avoided the draft. It has a letter he wrote to a Colonel Holmes about saving him from the draft. There's also a notarized statement from Colonel Holmes that was entered into the Congressional Record.

sbp

12-30-2002, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
It's Bush's fault for opening his big, fat mouth and taking a hard line with a nation that was actually acquiescing to U.S./World requests.Secretly having a nuclear weapons program after agreeing not to have one and being caught is acquiescing? Thats a strange definition of acquiescing indeed. :eek:

Bush: we know you have a nuclear weapons program.
North Korea: okay, okay you caught us. :P So say how about more goodies?
{The US and allies cut off the goodies being given to North Korea like oil and nuclear power plants that would be incapable of producing material for nuclear weapons}.
North Korea: What? We will destroy you! :angry:
{expels International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors}

Its believed North Korea is pushing the dispute to the brink of crisis in order to extract concessions. Concessions after its been shown North Korea lies? Screw that. A hard line needs to be taken with North Korea. The carrots approach was tried and failed.

So much for South Koreas President-elect Roh Moo-hyun sunshine policy. Maybe his name means Jimmy Carter in Korean. Maybe it means big sucker. Sunshine can't be found up the rear. :D

blueindian

12-30-2002, 05:40 AM

depends on what which got drafted for. it it were for some bull**** imperialistic war or anything that fell under the guise of preemption, such as the comming war on iraq, i would certainly not go. no way in hell.

however, were my country* being attacked, i would go. but only as conscious objector. i couldn't kill anyone, so they wouldn't want me in combat. but i could do some webpage or database work for them :P

*my country -- as in one or more of the 50 states that make up the United States

TofuNinja

12-30-2002, 10:12 AM

I would serve my country and fight if I was drafted.

As the Rock would say " It doesn't Matter!" It doesn't matter if I agree with the war or if I don't, if you are drafted you don't really have a choice. "I'd decline" that is bull, you decline, you break the law, and end up being president and having affairs with butt ugly women.

TofuNinja is a patriot, not a draft dodger.

And, I am American Chinese, but not South Korean, so I wouldn't burn flags :)

Nija

12-30-2002, 10:54 AM

I'd go if I was drafted. I personally think the Starship Troopers way of doing things was exactly what needs to be done, with special considerations (by miltary doctors, to screw up the dodgers) given to people with problems.

Those people that broke their limbs and went to Canada, will be forever ignored in my opinion.

zenbooty

12-30-2002, 11:06 AM

When ya Get Drafted
---------------------

Are you believing the morning papers?
War is coming back in style
There's generals here, advisors there,
And Russians nibbling everywhere
The chessboard's filling up with red
We make more profits when we blow off their heads
Economy is looking bad
Let's start another war (when ya get drafted!)
Fan the fires of racist hatred
We want total war (when ya get drafted!)

Drooling fingers
Panic buttons
Playing with missiles like they're toys
There's easy money, easy jobs
Especially when you build the bombs
That blow big cities off the map
Just guess who profits when we build 'em back up

Yeah, what Big Business wants Big Business gets
It wants a War (when ya get drafted!)
Call the Army! Call the Navy!
Stocked with kids from slums (when ya get drafted!)
If you can't afford a slick attorney
We might make you a spy!

Forget your demonstrations
Kids today sit on their ass (when ya get drafted!)
Just a six-pack
And you're happy
We're prepared
For when ya get drafted

Nija

12-30-2002, 11:08 AM

What's that from, booty??

zenbooty

12-30-2002, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Nija
What's that from, booty??

Dead Kennedys. The thinking man's punk group.

blueindian

12-30-2002, 12:35 PM

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain

You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead

Nija

12-30-2002, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by zenbooty

Dead Kennedys. The thinking man's punk group.

thought it sounded slightly familar.

I need me some Jello, when I get home :P

DankNstickY

12-30-2002, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by blueindian
lots 'o words

and whos that by?

whitak24

12-30-2002, 01:22 PM

if drafted, i would serve.

not that i want to.....

Ladogaboy

12-30-2002, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by DankNstickY

and whos that by?

President Bush wrote it in a past life.

blueindian

12-30-2002, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by DankNstickY

and whos that by?

Bob Dylan
year: 1963
album: The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan

also performed once by Eddie Vetter(sp?) at a dylan tribute show, which was in 93 or 94.

Nija

12-30-2002, 02:14 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/12/29/mandatory.military/index.html

cheapie

12-30-2002, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by JackHammer
Bush's answer to everything is war war war. If the US don't like other sovereing nation's policies, their response is a bombing campaign or the threat of one. We have no rights to tell countries like North Korea they can't have nuclear weapons.

un-effing-believable. we have had one bombing campaign. against the mother-f%$#ers that dropped the towers. maybe we should just give them the keys to gotham and let loose the hounds of hell! because it's their "sovereing" (sic) policies to kill us, let them at it. why should we stop them? and the conflicts that we're involved in have been brewing a LONG time before Bush came in office.

as far as what i would do, i would not fight because it's against my principles to kill anyone, but would serve my country in any other way i was asked. maybe a medic or something.

Ladogaboy

12-30-2002, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by Nija
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/12/29/mandatory.military/index.html

Rep. Charles Rangel, D-New York, said such legislation could make members of Congress more reluctant to authorize military action.

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. :shrug:

xsiled2

12-30-2002, 11:11 PM

pathetic.

Butch

12-31-2002, 12:03 AM

I haven't bothered reading most of this thread . . . will probably read it later . . . but I just wanted to stick this Op-Ed piece in the NY Times by Charles Rangel on G|A, and this thread seems like the most appropriate place to stick it given the topic and all . . . and, as luck would have it, I see Nija has mentioned Rangel's proposition a couple posts above . . . now read it straight from the source . . .

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/31/opinion/31RANG.html

Bring Back the Draft
By CHARLES B. RANGEL

WASHINGTON
President Bush and his administration have declared a war against terrorism that may soon involve sending thousands of American troops into combat in Iraq. I voted against the Congressional resolution giving the president authority to carry out this war — an engagement that would dwarf our military efforts to find Osama bin Laden and bring him to justice.

But as a combat veteran of the Korean conflict, I believe that if we are going to send our children to war, the governing principle must be that of shared sacrifice. Throughout much of our history, Americans have been asked to shoulder the burden of war equally.

That's why I will ask Congress next week to consider and support legislation I will introduce to resume the military draft.

Carrying out the administration's policy toward Iraq will require long-term sacrifices by the American people, particularly those who have sons and daughters in the military. Yet the Congress that voted overwhelmingly to allow the use of force in Iraq includes only one member who has a child in the enlisted ranks of the military — just a few more have children who are officers.

I believe that if those calling for war knew that their children were likely to be required to serve — and to be placed in harm's way — there would be more caution and a greater willingness to work with the international community in dealing with Iraq. A renewed draft will help bring a greater appreciation of the consequences of decisions to go to war.

Service in our nation's armed forces is no longer a common experience. A disproportionate number of the poor and members of minority groups make up the enlisted ranks of the military, while the most privileged Americans are underrepresented or absent.

We need to return to the tradition of the citizen soldier — with alternative national service required for those who cannot serve because of physical limitations or reasons of conscience.

There is no doubt that going to war against Iraq will severely strain military resources already burdened by a growing number of obligations. There are daunting challenges facing the 1.4 million men and women in active military service and those in our National Guard and Reserve. The Pentagon has said that up to 250,000 troops may be mobilized for the invasion of Iraq. An additional 265,000 members of the National Guard and Reserve, roughly as many as were called up during the Persian Gulf War in 1991, may also be activated.

Already, we have long-term troop commitments in Europe and the Pacific, with an estimated 116,000 troops in Europe, 90,000 in the Pacific (nearly 40,000 in Japan and 38,000 in Korea) and additional troop commitments to operations in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Kosovo and elsewhere. There are also military trainers in countries across the world, including the Philippines, Colombia and Yemen.

We can expect the evolving global war on terrorism to drain our military resources even more, stretching them to the limit.

The administration has yet to address the question of whether our military is of sufficient strength and size to meet present and future commitments. Those who would lead us into war have the obligation to support an all-out mobilization of Americans for the war effort, including mandatory national service that asks something of us all.

Charles B. Rangel, a Democrat, is a representative from New York.

Nija

12-31-2002, 09:11 AM

I like it.

I've always thought mandatory military service as a good idea.

cheapie

12-31-2002, 09:23 AM

i think there are a couple of reasons that "a disproportionate number of the poor and members of minority groups make up the enlisted ranks of the military, while the most privileged Americans are underrepresented or absent." one major reason is that the military uses college compensation as a feature to attract recruits. the rich don't need college tuition. also, if you join the military, it's not a bad career for someone that is poor. the benefits are good and you get to travel, another perk for an otherwise poor person. is this fair? dunno. it's just a fact that poor people are going to take advantage of the opportunities the military has to offer. it's another fact, a very sad one, that minority groups tend to make up a disproportionate number of the poor. hence the larger than societal average of minorities in the military.

TERRIBLETOM

12-31-2002, 09:29 AM

zenbooty

12-31-2002, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by cheapbast@rd
i think there are a couple of reasons that "a disproportionate number of the poor and members of minority groups make up the enlisted ranks of the military, while the most privileged Americans are underrepresented or absent." one major reason is that the military uses college compensation as a feature to attract recruits. the rich don't need college tuition. also, if you join the military, it's not a bad career for someone that is poor. the benefits are good and you get to travel, another perk for an otherwise poor person. is this fair? dunno. it's just a fact that poor people are going to take advantage of the opportunities the military has to offer. it's another fact, a very sad one, that minority groups tend to make up a disproportionate number of the poor. hence the larger than societal average of minorities in the military.

A good point, the military has always historically been a way for the underclasses to grow into the ranks of the middle class. Back in imperial Britain and France, where class was the predominant social structure, rising to officer status in the military was pretty much the only way non-nobles could become land owners.

But what is missing is the fact that in the past when the draft was active the sons and daughters of wealthy and/or influential citizens could escape the draft or get assigned to cushy office positions with the help of a good lawyer, or a corrupt Doctor who could write a bogus health excuse, etc. The poor who were drafted had no such recourse. That is VERY unfair, and a good argument against reenacting the draft.

cheapie

12-31-2002, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by zenbooty

But what is missing is the fact that in the past when the draft was active the sons and daughters of wealthy and/or influential citizens could escape the draft or get assigned to cushy office positions with the help of a good lawyer, or a corrupt Doctor who could write a bogus health excuse, etc. The poor who were drafted had no such recourse. That is VERY unfair, and a good argument against reenacting the draft.

i would agree. however, that most likely doesn't have a bearing on the current demographics of the military. it IS an issue that i would like addressed in advance of any draft institution! i'm pretty sure i'm too old to be drafted in the first round of drafts (28), but i still want to make sure my son gets a fair shake. actually, i'll hopefully be rich by then so never mind. let the poor folks bear the burden. :dodgy:

xsiled2

12-31-2002, 10:57 AM

http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/graph%20priv%20coll/Colonel%20Roosevelt.jpg

Cantacuzene

12-31-2002, 11:03 AM

As my friend who is currently in the navy puts it, "Joining the military can do wonderful things for a persons life... if they want it to. Otherwise it just makes them embittered and hateful."

Forcing people into the military is not a good solution. If a war is just you wont need a draft, people will volunteer. Drafts are only needed to compell citizens to fight a war they would rather not fight, like Vietnam. Don't forget, in ancient rome people cut off their thumbs to avoid being conscripted, don't think it can't happen today.

I dont blame CLinton for not serving in Vietnam. Vietnam was BS. I respect anyone who went and served especially those who died, but I don't blame the people who dodged either. Vietnam was a joke and a war our Republic never should have been in. We allowed our government to be run by big business and the military industrial complex and because of that 58,000 innocent boys died so that Coca Cola's stoke would go up 3 points.

I fI were drafted would I go to Iraq or North Korea or China? Probably. I still don't think we will ever see a draft again in this country. I also don't think a draft would affect me. As a college student soon to be graduate I would be offered a commission as an officer so chances are I woudlnt be some cannon fodder private anyway.

If I were a politician I couldnt with a clear conscience vote for a draft because as a politician I wouldnt be fighting. I refuse to force someone to fight in my place. If they volunteer to fight in my place then fine, but I wont force someone to fight for me.

Ladogaboy

12-31-2002, 11:32 AM

xsiled2, if you have something to say, you might want to just come out and say it. I'm not sure if people will understand what you are trying to say with cryptic posts like "pathetic." and a picture of Teddy.

I sure as hell don't. :shrug:

xsiled2

12-31-2002, 11:39 AM

why. so i cant get my views shot down. for every one person that agrees with me there are 4 more to disagree on this board.

cheapie

12-31-2002, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by xsiled2
why. so i cant get my views shot down. for every one person that agrees with me there are 4 more to disagree on this board.

we don't shoot ideas down because we disagree with them. more often, they are shot down because of faulty logic, rudeness, or things like that. also, if you need help getting over everyone disagreeing with you, talk to Cantacuzene. :D He's always pissing people off and he still posts all the time.

whitak24

12-31-2002, 11:51 AM

interesting points on both sides of the argument of whether we should have a draft or not.

i think Rangel does bring up a very valid point though when he says that members of congress would be much more reticent to send troops into action. unfortunately, i think it is far too easy when you're not personally connected to people in the military to say "well, we might suffer some casualities, but that's just a part of keeping the county safe. let's go at it!"

on the other hand, if you know that there's a decent chance that your kid could be killed, i think you'd think long and hard before deciding to send troops. not that you wouldn't do it, but you'd want to a.) be sure all other means of resolving the problem had been explored and b.) be sure that this was really a conflict worth fighting.

of course, i don't think a draft is necessarily the way to solve these problems, unless the only eligible people are children of politicians :D

xsiled2

12-31-2002, 11:56 AM

anyway to post my view in the most minimalistic way i can.

draft is unconstitutional, but if i was drafted i would go, and would fight my hardest for my country.

johnnymk

12-31-2002, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
Vietnam was BS. I respect anyone who went and served especially those who died, but I don't blame the people who dodged either. Vietnam was a joke and a war our Republic never should have been in.
I can't believe that I found something that I agree with you.

My number came up in the lottery. I believe it was in 1970. I had been against that horrible conflict( I don't believe it was ever declared a war) from the day we got ourselves involved in it.
Why was I against it? The cause was shaky (fighting Communism), the front was never declared and you had no idea what your enemy in Vietnam, Camdodia or Laos looked like. Plus the politicians, including the President could never agree on what to do over there and what to call it.
Every night people watched on TV the horror and devastation that this conflict was causing to our soldiers and to the fabric of our society.
Protests were everywhere. It was never a popular war, here or overseas. Soldiers were coming back in body bags, or mutilated , mentally and emotionally screwed up and most addicted to hard drugs.
It was really a low point in America's history. And what was pitiful was how the returning soldiers were treated. Because America wanted to forget Vietnam, they wanted to forget everything that was involved with it, including the soldiers.
Practically everyone I knew that served there had many of the problems I mentioned.
Well, I went down to Philadelphia to get checked out, and lo and behold, I was rejected because of asthma. To tell you the truth, I was a very happy guy.
I was working as a civilian for the Navy at the time. Some people could say that I was serving my country. I never really felt that way, because I saw how guys my age were holding up in the line of fire, most of them just waiting to get out of that hell hole, hoping that they would make it back in one piece. And I always felt that those men who served deserve a higher place as citizens than me.
As for the officer advantage that you mentioned, there was none in Vietnam. I took ROTC when I was at Drexel. If I would have gone to Vietnam, I would have been commisioned as a Second Lieutenant.
Those officers were so well hated by our soldiers that they didn't last too long over there.
I would have served in WWI or World War II. We had been attacked, we knew what the causes were, we knew where the enemies were and looked like and we generally knew where the frontlines were. Plus the fate of America was hanging in the balance both times.
I think that this present situation has a combination of the three wars,(or whatever you want to call Vietnam). It is not wildly popular, it has an unidentifiable cause-terrorism-as it's enemy. And the front, or fronts-- is somewhat vague.
However, we have been attacked, the future of our country could be severely impacted if we back down from the terroristic threats, and it appears that war will be officially declared.
But what is radically different from most wars in America's past is the existence of the volunteer armed forces. As of New Year's Day, 2003, there is no draft. We have had several decades when it didn't matter what your attitude toward serving your country was. Other people are being payed to do the dirty work so you can have any attitude you want and still be patriotic.
Only in the presence of the draft is honor, integrity and obligation in question. And since we have had such a dramatic turn toward various group's civil rights in the past three decades, there is going to be a firestorm of debates on who should really get drafted and still be fair. America's values are really going to be tested in the next year if a war drags on and the possibility of the draft becomes the only option.

TERRIBLETOM

12-31-2002, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by xsiled2
anyway to post my view in the most minimalistic way i can.

draft is unconstitutional, but if i was drafted i would go, and would fight my hardest for my country. I'm sure that some would rather wait until the fight is brought back into our own back yards again, then I'm sure you'll hear everyone cheering on our second amendment rights, Then when that happens you can forget about all the little things that are taken for granted, like the trash men coming on Thursdays every week. I guess my wife will have to cover me with an Ozzi while I run and put the trash curb side, Imagine if your the one picking up the trash and worried if theres a bomb in there, if they even decide to come. ***Xsiled2 this thread isn't directed towards you in any way, at least you'll go and fight...