One cocktail a day is good for you!

[brain]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/856703.asp?vts=010820032310

[nickel]

Those who drank at least three days a week had about one-third fewer heart attacks than did non-drinkers. And it made almost no difference whether the drinking consisted of half a drink or four. Those who imbibed only once or twice a week had only a 16 percent lower risk of a heart attack.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/conditions/01/08/heart.drinking.ap/index.html

[TERRIBLETOM]

Originally posted by nickelback
[i]Those who drank at least three days a week had about one-third fewer heart attacks than did non-drinkers. And it made almost no difference whether the drinking consisted of half a drink or four. Those who imbibed only once or twice a week had only a 16 percent lower risk of a heart attack I heard that also this morning on the news, three drinks per week is good for your heart or something along those lines. Then they jokingly said that your HMO wants to drop you because you aren't drinking three times a week and your boss wants to fire you because you are...

[xsiled2]

on nbc they said 2 drinks a day and that if you only had 3-5 a week it was much less affective :shrug:

[blueindian]

npr said you're better off drinking 2 or less drinks on most days.

[Cantacuzene]

NEWS FLASH: YOU CAN GET ALL THESE BENEFITS BY DRINKING A GLASS OF GRAPE JUICE.

This is just as bad as the people who think we should smoke weed because "Jesus did."

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
NEWS FLASH: YOU CAN GET ALL THESE BENEFITS BY DRINKING A GLASS OF GRAPE JUICE. This is just as bad as the people who think we should smoke weed because "Jesus did."
Got|Proof?

Juice has no alcohol, and I would think it is the alcohol which acts as a relaxant that would lead to fewer heart attacks over the long run. Unless the data says otherwise, I'm sticking with agreeing with the research provided.

You think if someone gave Jesus a bud, he could make enough weed out of it for everyone? :bandit:

[nickel]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
NEWS FLASH: YOU CAN GET ALL THESE BENEFITS BY DRINKING A GLASS OF GRAPE JUICE.

This is just as bad as the people who think we should smoke weed because "Jesus did."

yeh, i'd like to see some proof, too. i don't think grape juice cuts it. wine falls in the same category of course, but not because of the grapes, because of the alcohol.

site some articles or studies on your grape juice theory Canta. it doesn't provide the protection against a heart attack like alcohol in moderation on most days does.
:cheers:

[Cantacuzene]

1. This research proves nothing. All they did was sample people to see whether moderate drinkers have healthier hearts than non-drinkers. They DID NOT do any empiracle tests based on experimentation. All they did was statistical data.

2. Correlation does not equal causality. Just because oranges are fruits and oranges taste good does not mean all fruit tastes good. They did not test for other factors or establish any constants. It seems that healthier people drink occasionally, but it does not prove that people who drink occasionally are healthier. Understand the difference?

3. It has not been proven that the alcohol is the factor which may cause the supposed health gain. Red wine is considered the best for you for obvious reasons: its made from grapes. Look at the nutrition facts on a bottle of grape juice compared to a bottle of apple juice. The grape juice is much, much healthier.

[Cantacuzene]

Oh and btw, here ya go...

http://www.medformation.com/mf/stayhealthy.nsf/article/13948

http://pulse.ucdavis.edu/scripts/archive/red_wine_heart.html

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4422

A few choice excerpts...


Others are examining the potential benefits of components in red wine such as flavonoids (FLAV'oh-noidz) and other antioxidants (an"tih-OK'sih-dants) in reducing heart disease risk. Some of these components may be found in other foods such as grapes or red grape juice. Another area of controversy is that the linkage reported in many of these studies may be due to other lifestyle factors rather than alcohol. Such factors may include increased physical activity and a diet high in fruits and vegetables.


Research is being done to find out if the benefits of drinking wine or alcohol may be due to one or more factors, including an increased intake of antioxidants, an increase in HDL ("good") cholesterol or anti-clotting properties. Clinical trials of some antioxidants such as vitamin E have not shown any cardio-protective effect. Also, antioxidants can be obtained from many fruits and vegetables, including red grape juice.

[zenbooty]

Ok, ok Canta. But I'd still prefer to drink wine or beer or bourbon than grape juice :P .

[faither]

I like to ferment my grape juice into a nice merlot.

[Grimm]

They asked the oldest woman in America if there was anything she did to stay healthy. She said she didn't do anything different than anyone else, except that she had a beer every day.

The oldest woman in Okanawa<sp> sayd she had a drink of saki every day.

People are not saying that getting drunk is good for you, just drinking small quantities can have benificial results. An Apple Pucker a day keeps the doctor away. :P

[whitak24]

canta is right on.

these studies are bulls*** that has very little, if any, value for real life.

using a data set, i bet i can find a correlation between people who watch PBS and people who have fewer heart attacks.

there are a hell of a lot of factors that determine things like who will have a heart attack, and this study examined one that MIGHT POSSIBLY have some influence. in addition to the fact that the sample groups is EXTREMELY unrepresentative of the population as a whole, and then the researchers further skewed it by removing people who had a history of heart problems, they take one factor and try to draw a conclusion from it.

did they compare diets, levels of exercise, levels of income, environmental factors, levels of stress, levels of medical care, and personal factors? if they did, they didn't find it necessary to mention it :rolleyes:

"scientists" do these "studies" all the time and then the media, not being smart enough to know how to look at regression testing and how valid it is, read the two-paragraph summary at the beginning of the paper and write an article about it.

it's not real science; it's a joke.

[nickel]

come on you guys.

alcohol is a blood thinner. that very simply explains why it lessens the risk of a heart attack when imbibed on most days so that the effect remains pretty constant.

just because you don't drink alcohol you don't hafta act like it is the devil :P

and Canta, i know grape juice/wine, hence grapes, are good for cholesterol lowering effects due to their flavanoids, but that doesn't work on the same principal as blood thinning alcohol does. that is what makes wine so kickass. it has the alcohol AND the flavanoids going for it.

those dudes, are the facts.

[Nija]

Originally posted by nickelback

just because you don't drink alcohol you don't hafta act like it is the devil :P



if i remember reading correctly, Canta was plastered NYE, so I'm gonna guess he drinks, quite often, judging by what he's alluded to, in some random threads

:cheers:

[nickel]

yeh, he got tanked on grape juice. :P

and i wasn't referring to just Canta.

hey Nija, how about a "yeh nickel, you are right about the alcohol and grape juice dealio not being the same mechanism."

wouldn't that be nice of you?
did she say nice? :hmm:

[Nija]

Originally posted by nickelback
wouldn't that be nice of you?
did she say nice? :hmm:

would be, if I was a nice guy, but i'm not so bugger off
:P

[nickel]

Originally posted by Nija


would be, if I was a nice guy, but i'm not so bugger off
:P

i know you are a nice guy, you just have a hard time showing it :))

"bugger off, you bastard bugger off. f*ck you!"

do you know that tune?

[Nija]

Originally posted by nickelback


i know you are a nice guy, you just have a hard time showing it :))

"bugger off, you bastard bugger off. f*ck you!"

do you know that tune?

I'm inclined to think it's the Sex Pistols, but I know I'm wrong.

:munch: mmm wheat thins... these keep the doctor away :P

[Cantacuzene]

Yup, I do drink, but I'm the last one who will claim its good for me.

The blood thinning properties of alcohol have nothing to do with lowering the risk of heart disease. Read the links I posted. They clearly debunk the myth.

[nickel]

i don't have to read any of that. i know thinner blood has less chance of clotting. no clotting = no myocardial infarction

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by nickelback
i don't have to read any of that. i know thinner blood has less chance of clotting. no clotting = no myocardial infarction

Too bad you're wrong. And you can't say, "show me proof!" and then when I show you proof say, "I dont need to read any of that, I'm right anyway!"

Bad form.

[nickel]

you're just mad that you spend all that time finding links to put your grape juice up on a pedestal, and i could care less to read 'em. :P i know friggin grape juice/wine is good for you :rolleyes:


NEWS FLASH: YOU CAN GET ALL THESE BENEFITS BY DRINKING A GLASS OF GRAPE JUICE.

newflash: you still didn't prove that alcohol and grape juice are equal.

Bad form? oh yeah, you think you are the judge and jury dontcha? :P

[Cubsfan]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene


Too bad you're wrong. And you can't say, "show me proof!" and then when I show you proof say, "I dont need to read any of that, I'm right anyway!"

Bad form.

Just a minor point, but you didn't show any proof (and for that matter, neither did the first study in this thread). The first article you linked to was a summary which claims that grapes have the same effect as wine, but didn't give any sources. Just because it's on the internet doesn't make it true. The third link from the AHA only said "Some of these components may be found in other foods such as grapes or red grape juice." Basically saying that they don't know, just another summary of different points of view.

The second link was a study from a doctor at UC Davis. So basically this boils down to one study vs. another study. No offense, but your "proof" give me no more reason to believe you than the first study gives me reason to believe the opposite point. In fact, the article about that study basically states that is is not yet proof: "DR. KAPPAGODA'S CURRENT RESEARCH IS AIMED AT TRYING TO ESTABLISH THAT FOR SURE."

What I'm saying is that there's nothing to say that one study is better than the other. "Proof" is a very strong word.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go drink some alcohol and improve my heart (or maybe not, either way I'll enjoy it!) :)

[blueindian]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
Oh and btw, here ya go...

http://www.medformation.com/mf/stayhealthy.nsf/article/13948

http://pulse.ucdavis.edu/scripts/archive/red_wine_heart.html

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4422

A few choice excerpts...





canta,

the first 2 articles you've posted deal with the the fact that flavinoids are good for you, and that flavinoids are also available in grape juice. here are some quotes from the research article in question:


Some research says red wine has the most benefit on the heart, but this study clearly shows that white wine, beer, vodka, scotch — any form of alcohol — has exactly the same effect.


and


But the new study adds to the evidence that it is the alcohol itself, and not something found only in red wine, such as red pigment, that is good for the heart.


so therefore, your first two articles do nothing to support your newsflash. nickle is indeed correct that the conclusions are that the blood thining effects of alcohol, not flavinoids are responsible for the reduced risk of heart attacks.

here is a quote from your third link:


AHA Recommendation

If you drink alcohol, do so in moderation. This means an average of one to two drinks per day for men and one drink per day for women. (A drink is one 12 oz. beer, 4 oz. of wine, 1.5 oz. of 80-proof spirits, or 1 oz. of 100-proof spirits.) Moderate drinkers have lower heart disease risk than nondrinkers. However, drinking more alcohol increases such public health dangers as alcoholism, high blood pressure, obesity, stroke, breast cancer, suicide and accidents. Given these and other risks, the American Heart Association cautions people NOT to start drinking ... if they do not already drink alcohol. Consult your doctor on the benefits and risks of consuming alcohol in moderation.


the AHA's own website acutally says moderate drinkers hae a lower heart disease rate that nondrinkers.

i'd say that third link does nothing to supoort your newsflash either.

[blueindian]

Originally posted by whitak24
in addition to the fact that the sample groups is EXTREMELY unrepresentative of the population as a whole, and then the researchers further skewed it by removing people who had a history of heart problems, they take one factor and try to draw a conclusion from it.


why do you say that the sample group is unrepresenative?

38,077 is a lot of people. it makes sense to me that they would reomve those with a history of heart problems. i think the idea of a study was to see the effects of alohol on healthy hearts.

[Cantacuzene]

If you want to manipulate words to mean whatever you want them to mean so be it, but I think all rational people understand the point.

Alcohol = good for the heart but has drawbacks
grapes = good for the heart no drawbacks

[oblongmelon]

Canta-thank you for being informed. TOO BAD some people LET one year of anatomy class go to their heads.:rolleyes:

oh yeh and btw for those of you that can read-
http://vanderbiltowc.wellsource.com/dh/Content.asp?ID=577
PLEASE NOTE-THE AHA ALSO AGREES WITH CANTACUZENE.

[blueindian]

]Originally posted by Cantacuzene If you want to manipulate words to mean whatever you want them to mean so be it, but I think all rational people understand the point.

are you referring to me? if so, let me remind you of your original post:


Originally posted by Cantacuzene
NEWS FLASH: YOU CAN GET ALL THESE BENEFITS BY DRINKING A GLASS OF GRAPE JUICE.

by THESE BENEFITS, you are referring to the benefits listed in this study. now, please explain to me how you can get the benefits of ALCOHOL, which is what this study was about, from a glass of grape juice.

[nickel]

Originally posted by oblongmelon
Canta-thank you for being informed. TOO BAD some people LET one year of anatomy class go to their heads.:rolleyes:

oh yeh and btw for those of you that can read-
http://vanderbiltowc.wellsource.com/dh/Content.asp?ID=577
PLEASE NOTE-THE AHA ALSO AGREES WITH CANTACUZENE.

m'be you two want to run for seats on the AMA board? :P

back at your professional behavior again melon? who do you think had one year of anatomy class? are you referring to me? do you think you are the only one who is educated in the medical field on this board? what are you, an RN?

stop being so insultive, "oh yeh and btw for those of you that can read-" i think there is a high level of literacy on this board so don't suggest crap like that. :rolleyes:

[oblongmelon]

Tsk Tsk, your insecurities are creeping out again. Wow. And I'm sure with your dental hygenist certificate you didn't have much more than one year of anatomy. Whatever-you talk out your ass.

[zenbooty]

Ah, love is in the air...

[Cantacuzene]

You know things are weird when Obby agrees with me.

[nickel]

Originally posted by oblongmelon
Tsk Tsk, your insecurities are creeping out again. Wow. And I'm sure with your dental hygenist certificate you didn't have much more than one year of anatomy. Whatever-you talk out your ass.

It's spelled Dental Hygienist, not hygenist.
I have a LICENSE, not a certificate. You must be confusing me with a Dental Assistant. I took and passed the practical and the clinical NYS board licensing exam in DH. I am registered in NY state and in order to maintain this license I have to obtain 8 hours of CE per year. And the anatomy I had to concentrate on in college was DENTAL anatomy. Although we are required to take many other science courses. Duh, I didn't go to be a nurse. :rolleyes: I didn't want to work nights or to work holidays.
You are definitely the insecure one because you feel the need to attack me. You act as if you are the only one on this board who can be educated in the medical field, like it's making you jealous that someone else might be knowledgeable.
"Whatever-you talk out your ass." Yeh, backatcha. That language sounds real educated. :rolleyes:

[blueindian]

woooooo-hoo

i loves me a cat fight!

who's got the first round of beer?

[zenbooty]

Hey Nickle,
Where in NY are y'at? The big city?

[blueindian]

Originally posted by zenbooty
Hey Nickle,
Where in NY are y'at? The big city?


Originally posted by zenbooty in another thread which was coincedentatlly started by nickle
(And on an unrelated topic alluded to in another thread, when did they post pictures of you? )

zen trying to get booty?

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by blueindian
zen trying to get booty?
ehh, just trying to keep myself amused. I note she has yet to respond. Perhaps I'll get a message in my private box. But probably not, I imagine :cool: .

[whitak24]

Originally posted by blueindian


why do you say that the sample group is unrepresenative?

38,077 is a lot of people. it makes sense to me that they would reomve those with a history of heart problems. i think the idea of a study was to see the effects of alohol on healthy hearts.

from the MSNBC article
Mukamal analyzed data from a long-term study of 51,529 male health professionals — doctors, osteopaths, dentists, optometrists, podiatrists and veterinarians. He looked at 38,077 of them, eliminating people who had stopped drinking within the previous 10 years and those with histories of cancer and diseases of the heart or blood vessels.
i would argue that if you are trying to study the health impacts of anything, choosing a group of health professionals, no matther how large, as your sample is NOT representative.

it's like studying a group of auto mechanics to figure out who has the least car trouble.

while i agree with your point that perhaps this study was trying to study the impact of alcohol on a healthy heart, i think that if you manipulate the sample population enough, you can achieve most any statistical result that you want.

my whole argument here is that this study continues a tradition of severely misusing statistical data in an attempt to prove a point. it happens in health research, it happens in public policy research, it happens all over the place. and it's a pet peeve of mine, in case you hadn't guessed ;)

[blueindian]

Originally posted by whitak24
<snip>

but in saying that, are you not making the assumption that because someone is in the health profession that they are necessarily more health conscious and likely to have other factors contributing to their healthy hearts?

i'd tend to agree with you if they had all been heart surgens, as a group of heart surgens would likely take above average care of their heart, but i can't say i'd make the same assumption about vets or dentists.

[whitak24]

Originally posted by blueindian


but in saying that, are you not making the assumption that because someone is in the health profession that they are necessarily more health conscious and likely to have other factors contributing to their healthy hearts?

i'd tend to agree with you if they had all been heart surgens, as a group of heart surgens would likely take above average care of their heart, but i can't say i'd make the same assumption about vets or dentists.
i'm making the assumption that the group of people who are medical professionals (whether they are heart surgeons, vets, or dentists) are going to have a large number of behavorial, lifestyle, and personal traits that differ from the population as a whole.

so even if this were entirely valid, well-constructed research in every other respect (which i would argue that it's not), it still would be faulty to try to extrapolate it to the rest of the population, becuase a group of health professionals is not representative of the population as a whole.

if it were either a statistically random sample or a smaller, well-constructed statistically stratified sample, then it could be extrapolated with some accuracy. but it's not.

[Hunny]

Maybe you could all take an aspirin a day instead of your juicy juice, wine or beer ;)... which serves the same purpose of having those two drinks per day :shrug: ...doesn't it? ...or are those two drinks that you're sloshing back per day an excuse for the addiction you have because now after a year of doing so, you "need" those drinks to get on with your day..or to finish your day...

For example..I know someone that isn't a drinker..but, after a full day at the office would come home and poor a drink...Everyday...just one drink...to unwind...before long...the long drive seemed endless because guess what awaited at the end of the journey...yup..that ONE drink.......what starts off as an "unwinder" or in your case "the heart attack preventer" ...end off to be an addiction...and when you have a history of alcoholism in your family...history repeating itself was something to give a hard look at...and it was...

So think about it when you're pouring your "two heart attack preventive drinks" ...

Btw...do smirnoffs have the same effect? :)

[oblongmelon]

Originally posted by nickelback


It's spelled Dental Hygienist, not hygenist.
I have a LICENSE, not a certificate. You must be confusing me with a Dental Assistant. I took and passed the practical and the clinical NYS board licensing exam in DH. I am registered in NY state and in order to maintain this license I have to obtain 8 hours of CE per year. And the anatomy I had to concentrate on in college was DENTAL anatomy. Although we are required to take many other science courses. Duh, I didn't go to be a nurse. :rolleyes: I didn't want to work nights or to work holidays.
You are definitely the insecure one because you feel the need to attack me. You act as if you are the only one on this board who can be educated in the medical field, like it's making you jealous that someone else might be knowledgeable.
"Whatever-you talk out your ass." Yeh, backatcha. That language sounds real educated. :rolleyes:

yeh yeh, whatever you say Mrs. Webster. Oh and btw-who works nights and weekends? LOL you don't have a clue. Talk about attacking people-go re-read some of your own posts-if people don't agree with YOUR OPINION you brow beat them to death..anyway. I'm not wasting any more time on you -like the toothfairy-living in a fantasy world.. bye bye.

[Freelance Superhero]

you guys crack me up... seriously... :heh:

[nickel]

Originally posted by oblongmelon


yeh yeh, whatever you say Mrs. Webster. Oh and btw-who works nights and weekends? LOL you don't have a clue. Talk about attacking people-go re-read some of your own posts-if people don't agree with YOUR OPINION you brow beat them to death..anyway. I'm not wasting any more time on you -like the toothfairy-living in a fantasy world.. bye bye.

most nurses work shift work, don't try and sugar coat it. :rolleyes:

and it's not bye-bye, if i don't have to read your lameass posts anymore it's a good riddance. go empty a bed pan or something. :P

[oblongmelon]

Originally posted by nickelback


most nurses work shift work, don't try and sugar coat it. :rolleyes:

and it's not bye-bye, if i don't have to read your lameass posts anymore it's a good riddance. go empty a bed pan or something. :P
WOW-your wit astounds me. And of couse nurses work shifts.Do you think that sick people only need care during the day? What a ridiculous statement. Hey and I have a great Idea-if you don't want to read my posts-then I suggest you dont click on them. Oh yeh, and btw I guess I'd rather empty a bedpan than dig around in a field of trench mouth all day..and since you don't have a clue what I do for employment these days, please don't assume that I empty bedpans OR work shifts-I do neither..There are people on this forum that know EXACTLY what I do..I don't come on here to discuss my profession. If I wanted to do that I'd stay at work. Please don't think your little backhanded remarks bother me. You just can't handle the truth when someone calls you out on your comments.In fact-for example Cantacuzene was 100% correct in his postings-you,on the other hand try to belittle people with your snide little remarks when you know you have no leg to stand on. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed it. You don't impress me one bit,and quite honestly I don't care what you think about me,my posts or my profession..but if you are going to debate a post-at least please get a clue as to what you are talking about..sometimes just because you THINK you are right doesn't make you right. Be grown up enough to admit that.

[nickel]

haha, what a drama queen
get a life :P

[blueindian]

Originally posted by oblongmelon
In fact-for example Cantacuzene was 100% correct in his postings-you,

not to interrupt your cat fight or to take sides, but i still say canta is wrong.

he posted articles, as proof, about the benefits of flavinoids for the heart. the study was about the effects of alcohol, not flavinoids.

[nickel]

thank you :thumb:
they arent' the same. that was all i was trying to say.

[johnnymk]

As much as I enjoy a drink or two when I go out to Karaoke bars, I can't imagine anyone endorsing two drinks a day. Alcohol washes the B-vitamins and Magnesium ( a heart protector } out of your body. It also affects your sleep pattern, and it crams on weight.
Show me a two-drink-per-day person and I will show you a weekend alcoholic or one that is gradually progressing to a full fledged alcoholic. I have never met one, and I will bet that the AA hasn't either.
I smell rats in these studies, like, possibly the Liver Surgeons of America, and of course, the totally unbiased:mad: AMA

[blueindian]

i'm not a two drink a day person, but i am usually a one drink a day person.

i'm certainly not a weekend alcoholic. not to say thati don't get drunk sometimes on the weekend...:D

now, the AHA does not specefically endorse drinking, but they do say this:


Moderate drinkers have lower heart disease risk than nondrinkers.

and as far as cramming on weight...that depends on the person and the type of alcohol. i'm very active, usually i go to the gym twice each day. if i choose to have 2 shots of whisky, my body can certainly metabolize the 95 calories and 0 carbs in each shot. now if a sedentary(sp?) person drinks to heavy beers each day, then i imagine they would cram on the weight.

[oblongmelon]

Originally posted by nickelback
haha, what a drama queen
get a life :P
what a simply astonishingly deep answer-once again-your wit astounds me.

[nickel]

i know, thanks ;)

[cheapie]

wow. can't say that i've ever thought canta was the more informed and more objective poster in a thread before but he just might be today. :D

[blueindian]

i'm baffeled by the number of people here who seem to be completly opposed to the idea that alcohol may be good for you.

[Hunny]

Originally posted by blueindian
i'm baffeled by the number of people here who seem to be completly opposed to the idea that alcohol may be good for you.

Like anything we put into our bodies...in moderation I don't think it could hurt you...I don't think consuming two drinks per day for an extended time is considered good for you...or considered to be "moderation".

[blueindian]

Originally posted by Hunny


Like anything we put into our bodies...in moderation I don't think it could hurt you...I don't think consuming two drinks per day for an extended time is considered good for you...or considered to be "moderation".

but why do you think that is not moderation? what do you consider moderation? what if it were two glasses of OJ? is that moderation?

i can understand you thinking that two drinks per day is not considered good for you. i was told all my life that alcohol was bad for me..by parents, teachers, and everyone in between. and i'm sure that's the reason this study was published...to challenge that line of thought.

[TERRIBLETOM]

Originally posted by Hunny


Like anything we put into our bodies...in moderation I don't think it could hurt you...I don't think consuming two drinks per day for an extended time is considered good for you...or considered to be "moderation". I think this falls into the lines of another thread that was posted, " To much of anything that is good is not good".

[zenbooty]

Two drinks a day is moderate. Hell, three drinks ain't bad, as long as you space 'em out, or drink with food.

[Hunny]

Originally posted by blueindian


but why do you think that is not moderation? what do you consider moderation? what if it were two glasses of OJ? is that moderation?

i can understand you thinking that two drinks per day is not considered good for you. i was told all my life that alcohol was bad for me..by parents, teachers, and everyone in between. and i'm sure that's the reason this study was published...to challenge that line of thought.

For the sake of argument, though I can see myself digging my own hole here.....This is all from a personal view...again

Everyone has their own level or idea of moderation or should use common sense in determining that...for me, I don't think it'd be wise to have two drinks per day..and I am as healthy as they come but there are other factors to consider ..the same goes for others as well...family history, health, weight....
Once again, for some it will seem, I may be talking out of my A* because I don't have links to studies and research tables like yourselves, to back my reasoning.... my thoughts here are spoken simply by experience through both friends and family...
If I wanted to do something to prevent the risk of heart attacks...I'd try to find something else to replace the two drinks of alcohol that would give me the same effect in the long run...
Unlike yourself, I wasn't brought up to believe alcohol was bad for me...on the contrary, I was brought up in a home with an alcoholic, so to actually see it, hands on everyday, was normal like putting on your underwear ( you do, do that, don't you?) :P
...so I imagine my views would fall to the negative where drinking is concerned...I see no good coming from drinking "everyday"...
I don't consider two drinks everyday to be moderation...I call it an open gate welcome to something that could become out of control down the road.....and no study will make me believe differently :shrug:
As far as something like OJ everyday... I drink it for breakfast or at some point during the day...and like everything else, I'm sure one day they'll have a study to say that the acid in it is eating away some part of my body...like they do coffee...or apples that aren't washed...or taking too many motrins...or too much aspirin...or eating chocolate or eating too many carrots/ fruits/ starch and the list goes on & on....then more studies come back saying what was once bad for you is now good.... go figure !
........
As an afterthought:
...That's probably why the alcoholic in my family didn't die from a heartattack !...come short of giving us all one most times, he died from complications due to his drinking ...which he thought was in "moderation"...:puzzled: :amidala:

[johnnymk]

I totally agree with you, Hunny. My father was an alcoholic, and I saw the downside of alcohol and what it can do to family, friends, health and careers. I used to get plastered every time I went to parties during college. So the experience of being in that kind of environment didn't really teach me totally about the effects of alcohol at that age. I had to learn on my own what I could handle. But as I have grown older, for me, a couple of drinks on the weekend when I am out is all I prefer
BTW, when did personal experience not count anymore in these forums? Is politically correct Internet pluralism the only accepted truth anymore?

[Freelance Superhero]

well, here's a question for the sake of argument:

what the hell does "two drinks" mean anyway?? two beers? two glasses of wine? two shots of hard liquor? two FULL GLASSES of hard liquor? two cocktails? or mix and match? i mean, "two drinks" is really vague... i hardly think drinking two long island ice teas a day can be healthy for you... but maybe that's what blueindian is arguing... :shrug:

[blueindian]

on drink is usually defined as a shot of liquor, a 12 oz beer, or a glass of wine.

i'm not arguing that people should start drinking to prevent heart attacks. or anything. i think the point i was trying to make is clear. hell, i've flatly stated it in several posts.