Congress sends $15 billion global AIDS bill to president

[cheapie]

$15 Billion? Holy Fner!!! That's a lot of money. Not sure that to think. That's about $33 for every person living in the US.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/05/16/global.aids.ap/index.html

[johnnymk]

What a waste!!! And for the people who support this bill, let them volunteer the extra money.

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by johnnymk
What a waste!!! And for the people who support this bill, let them volunteer the extra money. This bill was Bush's idea. Remember his mention of it in his State of the Union Speech?

And what's wasteful about fighting a deadly disease?

[cheapie]

ding ding ding. let the fighting commence.

there's nothing wasteful about fighting a disease. however, spending that amount of money that affects FAR fewer americans than heart disease or cancer is somewhat questionable. especially when the acquisition of the disease can be prevented by many of the recipients. of course, there are people that got it because through no fault of their own. my grandmother died of cancer and i don't appreciate the fact that billions of $$ are being shipped overseas when they could be used here to fight diseases that affect me personally.

having said that, AIDS is a heart-breaking killer. i DO pity the victims of it. but do i as an american taxpayer have the responsibility to pay for their suffering at the expense of american victims of other, more rampant diseases? dunno.

read this article by Time Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/2001/aidsinafrica/cover.html) it's terribly sad and frustrating.

[whitak24]

Originally posted by cheapbast@rd
there's nothing wasteful about fighting a disease. however, spending that amount of money that affects FAR fewer americans than heart disease or cancer is somewhat questionable. especially when the acquisition of the disease can be prevented by many of the recipients. of course, there are people that got it because through no fault of their own. my grandmother died of cancer and i don't appreciate the fact that billions of $$ are being shipped overseas when they could be used here to fight diseases that affect me personally.
right, but the same argument about recipients being able to prevent getting the disease that's used about AIDS could be used against many cases of cancer as well. my grandma died of cancer as well, but it was because she had smoked for 60+ years.

the US, i believe, needs to act as citizens of a larger global community. the AIDS epidemic is having a devistating and destabilizing impact on Africa. as the world's richest nation, we have the duty to help step in and provide funding to help fight this scourge. if we are truly going to have a global economy, we can't just expect the rest of the world to supply us with cheap labor and bargain raw materials. we need to help third-world countries develop and live better lives.

the $15 billion, spread over 5 years, represents about 0.13% of total federal appropriations. this is NOT a major outlay. the government probably spends more on planting flowers in front of federal buildings. to make this kind of investment with the opportunity to help so many people and save a whole region of the world seems like a bargain to me.

[faither]

There's nothing wasteful about fighting a disease but the bulk of the money to be appropriated in this legislation will go to Carribean and African interests. Not that there's anything wrong with those areas but I'm sure we could find a use for those moneys here to expand research and provide comfort to those infected in the US.

[cheapie]

Originally posted by whitak24
snipped

what frustrates me is the fact that we're paying money to fight a disease that, for a lot of people, could be prevented by simply wearing a condom or obstaining. why should i pay for your indescretions. (i feel the same way about cancer for smoking victims btw. also, my grandmother had cancer in her intestines and i'm guessing she NEVER smoked.)

if you read the article in Time, these guys are just sleeping around like crazy and spreading the disease to their poor wives back at homes and to their offspring. why should i work hard at my job just to have my money sent to some buy in south africa because he can't be bothered to have safe sex or wait until he sees his wife or sig other?

last year AIDS got $2,400 per patient from the National Institutes of Health, breast cancer $230, heart disease just $108. Parkinson's: $78. and diabetes, which last year killed more people than AIDS and breast cancer combined, just $28!!!

if people are starving, i'll feed them. poor? look me up. but don't make me feel bad about not wanting to spend more on aids victims across the globe than i would on prostate cancer patients that are dying everyday in my own state.

if this money is going toward taking care of the orphans, for medicine for the innocent victims, that's fine. i'm just frustrated by the disparity in the amount of MY dollars going toward aids research vs. the diseases which actually kill my fellow americans.

[whitak24]

Originally posted by cheapbast@rd
if people are starving, i'll feed them. poor? look me up. but don't make me feel bad about not wanting to spend more on aids victims across the globe than i would on prostate cancer patients that are dying everyday in my own state.
i understand where you're coming from. i guess i just have a little difference in opinion, and that is that the government spends a heck of a lot of money on a heck of a lot of things that either a) don't help me or b) don't support things i'd like to see supported.

so i guess when i see that there's this massive problem and maybe we can help out with it, i'd rather see the money go there instead of going to pay for some more agricultural welfare for concentrated animal feeding operations or something....

[cheapie]

i hate all gvt waste. i just happen to be spouting off on this at the moment.


good point tho...

[hapoo]

My god, they're actually spending money on something productive!! Not on bombs! Not on supporting "friendly nations"! But actually on something that saves lives instead of taking them! I must say i'm impressed.

[LPMiller]

Originally posted by cheapbast@rd


what frustrates me is the fact that we're paying money to fight a disease that, for a lot of people, could be prevented by simply wearing a condom or obstaining. why should i pay for your indescretions. (i feel the same way about cancer for smoking victims btw. also, my grandmother had cancer in her intestines and i'm guessing she NEVER smoked.)

if you read the article in Time, these guys are just sleeping around like crazy and spreading the disease to their poor wives back at homes and to their offspring. why should i work hard at my job just to have my money sent to some buy in south africa because he can't be bothered to have safe sex or wait until he sees his wife or sig other?

last year AIDS got $2,400 per patient from the National Institutes of Health, breast cancer $230, heart disease just $108. Parkinson's: $78. and diabetes, which last year killed more people than AIDS and breast cancer combined, just $28!!!

if people are starving, i'll feed them. poor? look me up. but don't make me feel bad about not wanting to spend more on aids victims across the globe than i would on prostate cancer patients that are dying everyday in my own state.

if this money is going toward taking care of the orphans, for medicine for the innocent victims, that's fine. i'm just frustrated by the disparity in the amount of MY dollars going toward aids research vs. the diseases which actually kill my fellow americans.

They are sleeping around because education down there is so terrible they actually believe that will cure them. Fathers are sleeping with their kids because they believe that will cure them. The largest single population group becoming HIV positive is those under the age of 12. In America, you can argue it's just another sexual disease. In Africa, it's a pandemic.

As far as condoms - you've seen a lot of condom machines in the jungles of Africa?

The AIDS crisis is at least under a semblance of control in most civilized countries. In Africa, it is out of control, and at the rate it is going could very well wipe out most of the populace within 20-50 years. Where we have proteze inhibitors, they are still using AZT made 15 years ago - IF they are lucky. The health care, education and lack of a unified political response is killing Africa by bits and pieces till there won't be much left to there soon.

And the sad thing is, that 15 billion is a drop in the bucket to what they actually need. I applaud Bush for doing this, I just wish we could do even more.

[cheapie]

Originally posted by hapoo
My god, they're actually spending money on something productive!! Not on bombs! Not on supporting "friendly nations"! But actually on something that saves lives instead of taking them! I must say i'm impressed.

yeah yeah:rolleyes:

hehe...i kind of agree. however, the "THEY" is me.

[cheapie]

Originally posted by LPMiller


They are sleeping around because education down there is so terrible they actually believe that will cure them. Fathers are sleeping with their kids because they believe that will cure them. The largest single population group becoming HIV positive is those under the age of 12. In America, you can argue it's just another sexual disease. In Africa, it's a pandemic.

As far as condoms - you've seen a lot of condom machines in the jungles of Africa?

The AIDS crisis is at least under a semblance of control in most civilized countries. In Africa, it is out of control, and at the rate it is going could very well wipe out most of the populace within 20-50 years. Where we have proteze inhibitors, they are still using AZT made 15 years ago - IF they are lucky. The health care, education and lack of a unified political response is killing Africa by bits and pieces till there won't be much left to there soon.

And the sad thing is, that 15 billion is a drop in the bucket to what they actually need. I applaud Bush for doing this, I just wish we could do even more.


look, i'm not saying there isn't a problem. i'm saying where does our responsibility to help everyone else end? once we've told them, "DON'T EFF PEOPLE THAT CAN GIVE YOU THE DISEASE!!!" and they don't listen, aren't our hands tied? no matter how much money we dump over there, the problem is going to stay. better medicine will only prolong the inevitable, not cure the disease. if they are notpaying attention to the message concerning how not to spread the disease, why should we dump billions more on the problem?

also, i would hasten to add that your statement about there not being condems available in the jungle is a bit, ummm....something. one of the countries hit hardest by the disease is south africa. south africa is one of the more industrialized nations in africa. there certainly isn't a lack of condems there.

lastly, please understand that i am not against helping them! i just think that we are being intellectually dishonest if we don't concede that what is needed is a change of BEHAVIOR, not just the influx of american $$$. sure, money helps, but it won't stop the epidemic.

i desperately hope i haven't come off as a callous individual. i'm not. i give a large portion of my income to charities every year to make the world a better place. i'm just concerned that it will be (MY) money poured down the drain.

[attgig]

turning our heads now is no different from the rest of the world turning their heads on the concentration camps during hitler's reign, or the rest world turning their heads on the ethnic cleansing, or the rest of the world turning their heads on saddam's massive killings.


whether it be dictator or disease....we as a people should do something about it....not just pity the people, but take action and do something about it.... We as a society in America have become so passive and so stinkin post-modern, it annoys the heck outta me. especially cuz I see that type of thinking and mindset overtaking what I want to be

[cheapie]

Originally posted by attgig
turning our heads now is no different from the rest of the world turning their heads on the concentration camps during hitler's reign, or the rest world turning their heads on the ethnic cleansing, or the rest of the world turning their heads on saddam's massive killings.


whether it be dictator or disease....we as a people should do something about it....not just pity the people, but take action and do something about it.... We as a society in America have become so passive and so stinkin post-modern, it annoys the heck outta me. especially cuz I see that type of thinking and mindset overtaking what I want to be

i agree that we need to help. however, this is a disease that can easily be stopped, or at last slowed way down with the correct behavioral changes! the people in the concentration camps had no choice, they were jews so they were put to death. aids isn't like that.

and yes, i DO know that many people, especially the kids did not contract the disease through any action of their own.

also, i am the antithesis of a post-modern person. i am a moral person that believes in an absolute right and wrong. i am very caring and compassionate person and DO think we need to step in and help whenever and wherever we can. i just don't want to spend 15 billion dollars if it's just going to be a temporary band-aid. if they don't change the way they live, they will DIE! how is money going to change that?

if you can convince me that this money will prevent the disease, educate the people, and effect a change for the better, i have no problem with it. just don't tell me they need better medicine, etc....

[molecularfire]

Ok... I'm pretty sure that I'm going to get flamed for this... heck I probably deserve to get flamed for that I'm going to say but remember... this is one of the posts where I'm actually going to put in my true opinion instead of just picking a side randomly and arguing it just for fun. The quarter is put down for this folks.

Ok... here's my argument. Personally, I don't care one iota about the jewish people during WWII. Is that cold and callous... yes. But, that's my honest opinion. I don't know anyone there and I don't know anyone who knew anyone there, and personally, I really am just that self centered. Added to that... I think we need to either seriously change or get rid of welfare altogether (the program, not the poster). I grew up in a neighborhood that lives off of welfare and all 98% of the people do there is abuse the system and either don't work, or work under the table. The majority are stupid and lazy and deserve their lot. Those that don't, most of them get out of it. Actually, I don't know anyone who really really wanted to get off of welfare that couldn't (once again... the program, not the poster). It's like a drug that addicts the poor and prevents them from being functional members of society.

That being said, I support the concept of pumping 15 billion dollars into fighting AIDS worldwide. I don't know if I support the bill because I haven't read it yet, so I don't know what they are planning to do with the money. But, I don't think 15 billion dollars if spent sensibly is too much. With travel the way it is in this day and age, we will NEVER be able to control it in the U.S. unless we are able to control it into other countries. As for the argument that it's none of our business... anything that can threaten us is our business. If we are going to stay out of other countries affairs, then we should go completely isolationist. Otherwise, saying that it's not our place is just a way for us to chicken out of doing what we need to do to protect ourself.

As for the argument of why we don't spend that money on cancer, diabetes, etc... we have pumped tons of money into cancer and diabetes over pretty much most of our modern medicine's lifespan and while we have done great things towards it... we are not going to be able to do crap against those diseases with 15 billion... not even close. There is still way too much we don't understand about how to deal with those diseases. Now... infectious diseases is something we can deal with. We've done it in the past (remember smallpox, polio, etc...) and we know enough about AIDS that we have a shot against it.

As far as why should we help people in Africa... because it helps us. I personally don't care about starving children in Africa... heck, I don't care about starving people here. But, starvation is not contagious, AIDS is. That and right now... AIDS is transmitted by sex, blood, etc... However, the virus is famous for it's ability to spread. What happens if it figures out how to get airborne? What happens if it figures out how to survive in water? There is a LOT of data to suggest that we have CD4 receptors on our colonic epithelium... if the virus (already famous for it's ability to mutate) figures out how to survive in water, we're going to have a lot more of a problem on our hands. It's proven itself to be a threat, I think we should go after it and eliminate it while we can.

[cheapie]

this money isn't going towards research. if it was, there would be no reason to send it to africa. we can do research on the disease better here.

[Joshua]

I wan't my $33! Screw the skinny's in zimbabwe! Huh!


Originally posted by cheapbast@rd
$15 Billion? Holy Fner!!! That's a lot of money. Not sure that to think. That's about $33 for every person living in the US.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/05/16/global.aids.ap/index.html

[johnnymk]

Originally posted by SnotRocket
I wan't my $33! Screw the skinny's in zimbabwe! Huh!



That's the problem. Everybody is screwing everyone over there. And now the U.S. taxpayers are getting screwed.

[LPMiller]

Originally posted by johnnymk


That's the problem. Everybody is screwing everyone over there. And now the U.S. taxpayers are getting screwed.

Yes, because it's a moral issue regarding sex.

Not.

Look at it this way - the more HIV spreads, the more likely it will be able to mutate into a form that can be spread in ways other than sex. Helping out other countries that need it is only in our own best interests.

[eSDee]

Originally posted by johnnymk


That's the problem. Everybody is screwing everyone over there. And now the U.S. taxpayers are getting screwed.

We get screwed regardless. Might as well go for the screw that will give us the reach- around ;)

Hey molecular, I got a test you might want to take (http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=60358&) ;)